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#1152415 - 04/03/19 11:17 AM Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab)  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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MArtins title "Betrayal" reminded me of a song I wrote, about love lost and betrayal and somebody with anger issues and into crime. Technically, it was a collab.with Mark cause he had offered the track to anyone who wanted to give it a shot.

I couldnt find it...ive lost dozens of songs but realized Mark still had it on his fawn page SO, i downloaded it and presenting it.

Mark is a great musician, he uses guitars which is refreshing, and to date its probably the best demo I have of myself. I cant even listen to it myself im in wrong place to listen, but i remember it was good.

Basicly a track by Mark, I wrote the melody over it, wrote lyrics to fill it, and I sang it. I think we knocked the hell out of it, but there it sits in soundclick. I think i did one on a Mike Caro track also which he really liked, but of course I lost that one too.

Anyway, here's my/our mini movie

IRENE
https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13860785

Wake up man, we've got some work to do
And from me to you,
it wont be pretty but it sure feels right
Gonna need you to stand outside
Just be sure and hide, that steel insurance that we bought last night

When I kick down that door, I'll see that whore
and when she stumbles to explain
you're gonna hear a loud refrain

Irene
now you're gonna get to feel like me
You're right where I thought you'd be
my scattered heart
I'm gonna take every piece that I lost right out of his ass
and hell beg me for a pass

Yeah just block the door and dont let no one through
what them foot boys do,
they move up if they lend him a hand
but that's where the journey ends
I've got my own best friend
and you got yours think you understand?

I'll take back my name
this aint no game
gonna teach someone to mess around
they'll profess these words downtown

Irene
now you're gonna get to feel like me
You're right where I thought you'd be
my scattered heart
I'm gonna take every piece that I lost right out of his ass
and hell beg me for a pass

And then the newsman tells the score
"he won the battle and the war"
and like a dirty troubadour
he said....


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/03/19 11:23 AM.
#1152420 - 04/03/19 01:15 PM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Sounds alt rock to me. Not really something that I know anything about, but I've heard songs with a similar "swaggar" to them.

If I understand the story correctly, its about a cheated on husband who is soliciting a lookout so that he can kick in his wife's door in order to bludgeon her lover with a metallic object...as she watches.

That's disturbing. If the point of the song is to disturb the listener, you got that done.

Martin

#1152421 - 04/03/19 04:42 PM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Sounds alt rock to me. Not really something that I know anything about, but I've heard songs with a similar "swaggar" to them.

If I understand the story correctly, its about a cheated on husband who is soliciting a lookout so that he can kick in his wife's door in order to bludgeon her lover with a metallic object...as she watches.

That's disturbing. If the point of the song is to disturb the listener, you got that done.

Martin


Its not a pop song, it was more of a movie concept song. Well yeah, how bout the Talking Heads Physcho KIller.... Pink Floyds The Lunatic is in the hall

#1152426 - 04/03/19 10:06 PM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Fdemetrio,

I’ve listened to this a number of times . . . and there’s a lot to admire here. Musically, it is absolutely killer—sounds great (big kudos to Mark). Vocally, I like a lot of the phrasing . . . e.g., the opening lines of both the first and second verse sound slick. Were I to get picky, knowing it’s just a demo, there are a few notes vocally that don’t quite resonate (e.g., “I’ll see that whore” falls on a not so great note).

So while I really like the atmosphere, feel and sound of this, i struggle a bit with it lyrically—and it’s a totally subjective opinion, so take with a huge grain of salt. There’s not a tight connection, for me, line to line, and some lines seem forced. Most notably, “he’ll beg me for a pass”—given the build up to that moment, it’s an anti-climactic line.

And I’m confused on the chorus, which seems directed to Irene, but the second line is “now you’re gonna feel like me.” Does “you” mean Irene or the person whose ass is on the line. And the last stanza, in the particular, seems a lost opportunity. Generally, I think the lyrics can be tighter and more focused throughout here. But it could me I’m just missing the mark here. Such is the subjective way of music.

Overall, a lot to like here . . . it’s got a great feel to it. For my personal taste, just think a little massaging might help it along.

Regards,

Deej

#1152434 - 04/04/19 10:53 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I realized a while back based on other listeners it was a bit "off putting"

Basicly how it happened... I was watching the Movie "The Doors" and the scene where Jim Morrison caught his wife cheating, and locked her in the closet, and set the closet on fire. And he said "Now, im gonna introduce you to my friend pain" ( I said "Now you're gonna get to feel like me) and this is a real life person! . At the same time, the TV Show The Sopranos was a big hit, and thats where the organized crime comes from and the fact that those guys dont tolerate disloyalty very well either.

Then I saw Marks track up there, it was minorish with a very dirge like, House of the rising sun, WIlder shade of pale kinda vibe to me at least, Thats when the lyrical ideas came out and it was done in about 10 minutes.

I think you're right it could use some tweaking, and the two pieces werent really made for each other, but they made for a nice impersonation of a collab, I thought.

But it was a character song, and while it may not be my best song per se, there's a ton of emotion in this, which is what I strive for in a song.

Thanks for your ears and comments.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/05/19 03:03 PM.
#1152440 - 04/04/19 11:46 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Vicarn Online content
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I like the way it's done. Kind of refreshing in that it's a little shocking.
Reminds me in it's vocal attitude a little of something Oasis might do, but just a little.
I can see it played in a movie "Blue Velvet" style.

Vic.


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1152443 - 04/04/19 11:54 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Vicarn]  
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Originally Posted by Vicarn
I like the way it's done. Kind of refreshing in that it's a little shocking.
Reminds me in it's vocal attitude a little of something Oasis might do, but just a little.
I can see it played in a movie "Blue Velvet" style.

Vic.

Thanks Vic. I thought Oasis were great, they thought they were the beatles, but I did like them. Thanks for your comments, yeah I could see Blue Velvet too

#1152449 - 04/04/19 02:14 PM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Wow, that was almost a decade ago...!

I really liked your version of this—made it sound like a cross between Pink Floyd and Quentin Tarantino.

There are a bunch of other versions too, and here's the original thread, which I just had fun re-reading: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...n-song-challenge-for-you.html#Post820307

The song started out as something I first composed to a Couchgrouch lyric a year or so before, which was quickly forgotten. Later on, another composer wrote completely different music and melody for the lyric. When they pitched that song, I put my instrumental track up at the JPF Challenge Forum for fun, just to let people get used to writing "backwards"—you know, the way guitar players tend to write songs—music first, and THEN write lyrics to fit that music.

Steve Soucy played the keyboards on this, like a master. Fun times.

#1152471 - 04/05/19 02:23 PM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Thanks, Wow even Tampa Stan participated. Funny nobody saw it as a dark piece, I think I found that niche.

You should do another Mark, and you should do demos and make some money for yourself.

yeah, they were good times I miss crazy Paulie, talented guy, and I miss busting Bills chops. He used to lurk around here but havent seen him surface in a while

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/05/19 03:22 PM.
#1152505 - 04/07/19 11:40 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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That grows on ya! I wonder if repeating "Irene! Irene!" would work better than the single, sustained note on 'rene'. (Third listen, I think you do repeat!)

Some words opening and ending Lines get dropped in enunciation and/or volume and therefore lost in their contribution to the Line. I think singers/composers tend to obey the rules and resolve down into the appropriately pitched note. But defying the rule and delivering that word meaning at the end of a Line is more strategically important. A voice has to take on the characteristics of an instrument executing notes but it also has to sustain the characteristics of a human voice communicating words.

It grows on you. You start to see the movie, and while you don't have to agree in the Singer-Character's justification or decision to do what he's proposing to do, you can watch with fascination as the action plays out. His co-conspirator, motivated by who knows what, confronting the 'foot boys' when they respond; I see him simply getting the drop on them, making them sit down in the hall while the noise goes on behind closed doors. You got all that imagery to pop into my head. I think it works. Someone should make the video, maybe the movie. Irene, the Love-Interest Character, the 'me' Character, the Singer-Character, and his ally. They walk. They talk. They live and breathe. And, true to the human condition, they make bad decisions, come into conflict, which is always a good element in storytelling.

Turn the car around Ray. I need to go back one more time and hear "Irene."

Last edited by Gary E. Andrews; 04/07/19 11:49 AM.

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1152518 - 04/08/19 10:13 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
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Originally Posted by Gary E. Andrews
That grows on ya! I wonder if repeating "Irene! Irene!" would work better than the single, sustained note on 'rene'. (Third listen, I think you do repeat!)

Some words opening and ending Lines get dropped in enunciation and/or volume and therefore lost in their contribution to the Line. I think singers/composers tend to obey the rules and resolve down into the appropriately pitched note. But defying the rule and delivering that word meaning at the end of a Line is more strategically important. A voice has to take on the characteristics of an instrument executing notes but it also has to sustain the characteristics of a human voice communicating words.

It grows on you. You start to see the movie, and while you don't have to agree in the Singer-Character's justification or decision to do what he's proposing to do, you can watch with fascination as the action plays out. His co-conspirator, motivated by who knows what, confronting the 'foot boys' when they respond; I see him simply getting the drop on them, making them sit down in the hall while the noise goes on behind closed doors. You got all that imagery to pop into my head. I think it works. Someone should make the video, maybe the movie. Irene, the Love-Interest Character, the 'me' Character, the Singer-Character, and his ally. They walk. They talk. They live and breathe. And, true to the human condition, they make bad decisions, come into conflict, which is always a good element in storytelling.

Turn the car around Ray. I need to go back one more time and hear "Irene."


Gary u da man! lol. Glad somebody gets it. Foot boys was a nick name i gave what mafia people call foot soldiers, and the fact that the singer doesn't respect them much calling them foot boys. A Pass, yeah it rhymes, but its also a term they use for letting something go unpunished.

Yeah and I left the ending up for grabs, for all we know they decided to go to 7-11 and get a big gulp. But revenge is running through his mind. One of my favorites Bruce Springsteen has said his songs have no particular begining or end, they zoom in on a scene and then zoom out.

The repeating Irene part is achieved by delay. I rememeber i sent just the vocal mp3 with the delay already recorded into that part, and gave it to Mark to put into his mix.

Then he added that moog synth part which I thought was killer...no pun intended.



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/08/19 10:14 AM.
#1152721 - 04/16/19 08:17 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Fde,

You have a fabulous production here. No question lyrics will be disturbing, but your art is "real" even if it puts a knot in some of our stomachs. I really like the chord progressions within the song especially. I like how you sing the song, a couple spots I might rather you sing differently such as the "whore" line, but I sense that this is finished so no biggie there.

This song has several unique influences for me--I hear some angry J Morrison and even hints of "A paler shade of White" vibe/Beatles/Billy Joel etc. This is a piece of music that could transcend music time periods--it would be hard to classify when it was written in other words. Good art never gets too old to appreciate, so if it is dated music--well hell, most of our music around here dated music given our average age!

I dig the music groove, but am a little concerned that do we need to prop certain types of behavior to our youth or mentally fragile? Having said that, I do respect that we all as artists have the right to express ourselves. I've expressed much tragedy in my own songwriting for sure.

Great job here Fde and Mark as well for the music foundation, I was very much impressed overall!

steady-eddie

#1152728 - 04/16/19 10:43 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: E Swartz]  
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Originally Posted by E Swartz
Fde,

You have a fabulous production here. No question lyrics will be disturbing, but your art is "real" even if it puts a knot in some of our stomachs. I really like the chord progressions within the song especially. I like how you sing the song, a couple spots I might rather you sing differently such as the "whore" line, but I sense that this is finished so no biggie there.

This song has several unique influences for me--I hear some angry J Morrison and even hints of "A paler shade of White" vibe/Beatles/Billy Joel etc. This is a piece of music that could transcend music time periods--it would be hard to classify when it was written in other words. Good art never gets too old to appreciate, so if it is dated music--well hell, most of our music around here dated music given our average age!

I dig the music groove, but am a little concerned that do we need to prop certain types of behavior to our youth or mentally fragile? Having said that, I do respect that we all as artists have the right to express ourselves. I've expressed much tragedy in my own songwriting for sure.

Great job here Fde and Mark as well for the music foundation, I was very much impressed overall!

steady-eddie


Hi Eddie thanks for your ears and insight. I dont think people realize how hard it is to write to a track. Not only for lyricists but even for melody writers who then have to fill in lyrics. I know Paul Simon works with tracks often, and its good if you have a musician type of cowriter who thinks in terms of arrangement. I think every lyricist here should take a crak at this track, its good practice.

In my case I had to write the melody and the lyrics to an existing chord progression. Sometimes you're asked to write a lyric to a melody thats already there, which I have not seen many people do that here. I do it all the time even in my own writing, because dribs and drabs come to me, then I have to string them together into a song, and then oh yeah, find something to say to go with it.

Nobody likes the whore part, in that mid section Im using syncopation in the melody, and its a dissonant melody, which I thought matched that the guy was off kilter. A sociopath might have a bit of dissonance in his phrasing.

Glad you see it as art, cause I think it is. Its not a pop song, so im not concerned about the kids liking it....but then again, when I was 12 years old I listened to The Doors, The End, several hundred times, "The Killer awoke before Dawn, he put his boots on" It didnt influence me in that way.

Other artists Like The Who and Springsteen had a profound influence on me. But they are different writers.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/16/19 10:47 AM.
#1152737 - 04/16/19 02:52 PM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Fde,

My "standard" approach to songwriting is establishing a chord progression foundation, then I listen for melodies in my head that work with those chords and key. Rarely have I written songs by hearing a spontaneous melody in my head while driving a car or in my sleep etc. I have gotten lyric ideas or solved problem areas within my song lyrics spontaneously however. I've also heard alternative melodies with established songs when listening. Lyrics on the other hand I've written without a melody in my head, but prefer to write lyrics "after" establishing a melody--in this way I know quickly what fits the measures/timing/vibe etc without having to destroy established lyrics too much. Once happy with the melody and rough lyrics, I contemplate production/tempo/genre-&-vibe. I do not find it easy writing music to established lyrics, probably why I don't do much collaborating. I can't stand "forcing" phrasing of lines to "fit" when they don't. It sounds to me as you think similarly, but it is certainly different from writer to writer or composer to composer, and certainly no one way for song writing.

Again, very cool song,

steady-eddie

#1152774 - 04/17/19 04:51 PM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: E Swartz]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Originally Posted by E Swartz
Fde,

My "standard" approach to songwriting is establishing a chord progression foundation, then I listen for melodies in my head that work with those chords and key. Rarely have I written songs by hearing a spontaneous melody in my head while driving a car or in my sleep etc. I have gotten lyric ideas or solved problem areas within my song lyrics spontaneously however. I've also heard alternative melodies with established songs when listening. Lyrics on the other hand I've written without a melody in my head, but prefer to write lyrics "after" establishing a melody--in this way I know quickly what fits the measures/timing/vibe etc without having to destroy established lyrics too much. Once happy with the melody and rough lyrics, I contemplate production/tempo/genre-&-vibe. I do not find it easy writing music to established lyrics, probably why I don't do much collaborating. I can't stand "forcing" phrasing of lines to "fit" when they don't. It sounds to me as you think similarly, but it is certainly different from writer to writer or composer to composer, and certainly no one way for song writing.

Again, very cool song,

steady-eddie


Thanks Eddie. Yeah, there is alot of forcing and settling though when writing to a track, As I said I think lyric writers should try it, its not easy. They can even try re writing a lyric exactly as the structure is of another song, same meter and everything.

#1152784 - 04/18/19 09:07 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Dave Rice Offline
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Dave Rice  Offline
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Texas
Morning, FD and Mark:

I listened yesterday but was sent to do a chore before I could comment. Yes, it is a bit "dark" but it tells a story... and you told it well. FD, your vocal put your "brand" squarely on the forehead of the song. I agree that it could easily be scooped up by a movie or TV Drama production company. Not knowing the degree of collaboration between the two of you, I'm not sure which of you deserves the most accolades... but I wish you success in this and whatever you choose to do in music... and your personal lives.

One thing is certain, you "dropped" a ton of JPF names... people we all learned to admire and respect. Tampa Stan and Mike Caro influenced so many of us here. Thanks for reminding us about our roots... made possible by Brian's patience and generosity.

Regards, ----Dave

#1152787 - 04/18/19 10:20 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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9ne Offline
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9ne  Offline
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N.E. of Toronto
I've long been a fan of Mark and Steve. Well done! Another "well done" goes to FD for a very nice vocal!
I thought the lyric could use some tweaks, but otherwise, a song everyone involved should be proud of!
Best
-Mike


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=170948

I think what makes satan so attractive to others is
that he tastes like chocolate...
....and he played real drums
#1152791 - 04/18/19 10:47 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Oct 2017
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Morning, FD and Mark:

I listened yesterday but was sent to do a chore before I could comment. Yes, it is a bit "dark" but it tells a story... and you told it well. FD, your vocal put your "brand" squarely on the forehead of the song. I agree that it could easily be scooped up by a movie or TV Drama production company. Not knowing the degree of collaboration between the two of you, I'm not sure which of you deserves the most accolades... but I wish you success in this and whatever you choose to do in music... and your personal lives.

One thing is certain, you "dropped" a ton of JPF names... people we all learned to admire and respect. Tampa Stan and Mike Caro influenced so many of us here. Thanks for reminding us about our roots... made possible by Brian's patience and generosity.

Regards, ----Dave


Thanks Dave, It's hard to put a percentage on whos role was more important. I suppose if theres no track, theres no melody or lyric or vocal from me. SO in that I give Mark More credit. As to how good it may have turned out, is subjective, but I think I did is justice.

Where I thought Mark did even more was the synth moog part he added once he heard what the song was trying to say. I thought that was very clever and creative, that part doesnt appear in the other versions because it was a different song for everybody.

Also cant forget Steve on Piano, did a nice Job. I never really heard him play aside from some songs he used to post, but by all accounts hes really good, I got a piano friend who is really good too but hes more of a lounger let me get my 150 bucks kind of player, moreso than a recording artist.

I mentioned Tampa Stan cause I saw in Marks thread that he was taking a shot at this track also. and Mike Caro had a similar track posted and I did a really cool nearly hip hop style verse and a rock chorus, it came out surprisingly well, but I cant find the damn mp3

I mentioned Bill O, and Paul P, I knew them for a different site where this track was also offered. Paul P was one of the crazy cats but he could write a song and make it real. Bill was a lyricist but I havent seen him around here in a long time

So in a nut shell this finished track is 55 % Mark cause of that Moog part, 35% me, and 10% Steve for his Piano.




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/18/19 11:04 AM.
#1152793 - 04/18/19 10:54 AM Re: Irene (Mark Kaufmann Collab) [Re: 9ne]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Originally Posted by 9ne
I've long been a fan of Mark and Steve. Well done! Another "well done" goes to FD for a very nice vocal!
I thought the lyric could use some tweaks, but otherwise, a song everyone involved should be proud of!
Best
-Mike


If I was to release an album, Id probably summons Mark for some help, he knows how to play rock music, he has a classic rock mentality, and can play multiple instruments.

Steve is a very good Piano player. I havent seen or heard about him in ages, i hope hes doing well.


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