Who's Online Now
22 registered members (Gavin Sinclair, glynda, Fdemetrio, Everett Adams, couchgrouch, ejlawrence, 9ne, 5 invisible), and 264 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
niteshift
niteshift
Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,478
Joined: December 2006
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
A Part of the Plan
by Mimmo. 07/21/19 04:35 PM
Lyrics needed
by Fdemetrio. 07/21/19 03:05 PM
How Broken Hearts Can Be (Halie Loren vocal)
by JaneK. 07/21/19 11:22 AM
Love's Next Millionaire.
by JaneK. 07/21/19 11:13 AM
Pennies On His Eyes. ( C. Kiphen & N. Cotton) He
by Neil Cotton. 07/21/19 09:17 AM
SOME THINGS. ( Work in progress)
by Travis david. 07/20/19 11:18 PM
I Can't Forgive
by Martin Lide. 07/20/19 06:21 PM
I Have My Girl
by MFB III. 07/20/19 04:51 PM
I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves
by Fdemetrio. 07/20/19 03:09 PM
"First love, last love" (Work tape/track)
by Steve Altonian. 07/20/19 01:01 PM
Deleted
by F Williams. 07/20/19 11:59 AM
One Word
by Martin Lide. 07/20/19 10:10 AM
Call On Me (Scratch Track)
by Martin Lide. 07/20/19 09:55 AM
Allergic To Work
by Neil Cotton. 07/20/19 08:13 AM
Look At the Love We're In
by Marvin Adcock. 07/20/19 08:09 AM
Topic removed
by Roy Cooper. 07/20/19 01:38 AM
He's a changed man - suggestions welcome
by Roy Cooper. 07/20/19 01:06 AM
SONGS WANTED URGENTLY PLEASE
by Steve Altonian. 07/19/19 11:46 PM
California
by 90 dB. 07/19/19 01:46 PM
The Man I Hide Behind
by ckiphen. 07/19/19 12:43 PM
Any thoughts on double song titles
by Roy Cooper. 07/19/19 02:21 AM
Oh, My Friend
by Gavin Sinclair. 07/18/19 11:42 AM
Why Does Love Have To Be So Hard
by nightengale. 07/18/19 06:59 AM
"Walkin' Down The Road (Without Me)"
by Gary E. Andrews. 07/17/19 11:18 PM
"Over The River Tonight" by Gary E. Andrews
by Gary E. Andrews. 07/17/19 11:17 PM
What I Have Become
by JAPOV. 07/17/19 10:44 PM
Rusty Old Gage
by Neil Cotton. 07/17/19 08:55 PM
::: OH BABY I LOVE YOU (Uke) :::
by Guy E. Trepanier. 07/17/19 03:21 PM
Safe Haven
by JaneK. 07/17/19 01:46 PM
A Dirge For The Lonely.
by MFB III. 07/17/19 01:28 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,750
Travis david 11,534
Kevin Emmrich 10,546
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,572
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,844
glynda 8,590
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,905
couchgrouch 7,530
Corey 7,357
Dave Rice 7,302
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,493
Joe Wrabek 6,403
Vicarn 6,125
ben willis 6,099
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,604
niteshift 5,478
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Derek Hines 4,893
Neil Cotton 4,870
DonnaMarilyn 4,652
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,356
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
nightengale 4,073
Roy Cooper 4,053
TamsNumber4 4,033
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,799
MFB III 3,756
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,500
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
E Swartz 3,333
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,812
MidniteBob 2,707
Nelson 2,570
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,206
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
floyd jane 1,982
maccharles 1,948
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,647
Noel Downs 1,620
Rick Heenan 1,596
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Martin Lide 1,504
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,461
Tom Franz 1,453
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
GocartMoz 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Fdemetrio 1,232
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
Gerry 1,143
summeoyo 1,121
joro 1,081
BobbyJoe 1,075
lane1777 1,065
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Deej56 1,023
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
IronKnee 947
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
9ne 879
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
90 dB 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 740
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 733
ant 732
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
Irwin 623
CG King 622
douglas 621
Pat Hardy 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
Moosesong 581
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
R&M 492
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#1152197 - 03/30/19 03:26 AM A Defense of JPF Feedback  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
Deej56 Offline
Top 500 Poster
Deej56  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
[Title of thread edited to better clarify my intent]

Well, after posting for a short while a long defense of the quality of feedback we receive from our fellow JPF members and the merits of this website, I think discretion is the better part of valor . . . and I'll stay on the sidelines.

But there's part of what I did write that I will share, and it's this:

"I’d simply take this opportunity to salute and thank my fellow members of the JPF community. I remember when I posted my first song here, with great trepidation and reluctance. . . it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic . . . I tell you honestly, if I got the type of blunt, harsh reactions that perhaps I deserved, rather than the encouragement and kind, supportive feedback that I did receive, I might never had the courage to post again."

So thank you JPF for your tolerance and kind welcome and fellowship.

My best regards to all of you,

Deej

Last edited by Deej56; 04/02/19 12:00 AM.
#1152208 - 03/30/19 09:00 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
I think that you've got the big picture DJ.

Song critiquing, architectural critiquing and any critiquing are mostly searches for validation.
It's similar to politics...people want to hear what you have to say as long as it's what they want you to say.
If you tell someone that they are, in fact..."too fat"...every time that you get asked, don't look for that to turn out well. wink

After doing this for a few years on these ammy sites, treading lightly with occasional politely delivered truth is about all that makes sense to me...regarding critiquing.

If we were actually working on music that was going to enter the big time arena and jobs and lives depended on it's profitability, then some raw truth would be necessary. But...we aren't. We're trying to enjoy a passion.


However, feel free to say whatever you want about this post. wink

Marty

#1152214 - 03/30/19 10:03 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Deej56
Well, after posting for a short while a long defense of the quality of feedback we receive from our fellow JPF members and the merits of this website, I think discretion is the better part of valor . . . and I'll stay on the sidelines.

But there's part of what I did write that I will share, and it's this:

"I’d simply take this opportunity to salute and thank my fellow members of the JPF community. I remember when I posted my first song here, with great trepidation and reluctance. . . it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic . . . I tell you honestly, if I got the type of blunt, harsh reactions that perhaps I deserved, rather than the encouragement and kind, supportive feedback that I did receive, I might never had the courage to post again."

So thank you JPF for your tolerance and kind welcome and fellowship.

My best regards to all of you,

Deej


The merits of this site for me are, 1. sharing thoughts on music or other stuff, if it comes up. 2. Finding collaborators, I dont need them, but I see its value for finding people to write songs with, especially for lyricists. Some folks would not have any collabs if not for this site. 3. Networking

But this quote: "I’d simply take this opportunity to salute and thank my fellow members of the JPF community. I remember when I posted my first song here, with great trepidation and reluctance. . . it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic . . . I tell you honestly, if I got the type of blunt, harsh reactions that perhaps I deserved, rather than the encouragement and kind, supportive feedback that I did receive, I might never had the courage to post again."

Look what you wrote "it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic"

That doesnt make a song crap, but its perceieved as crap because people want to hear recordings. Recordings are not songs. And I think people have figured out, that the best way to make people think your songs are good and you;re good, is to have good recordings of the songs. Thats not true at all.

If the song was good all you would need is a vocal good enough to hit the melody and clear enough to be heard. But when people do that, they dont get the same responses as somebody whos putting up polished tracks, thats why they go through all the rings to get a recording.

The only people who get "picked on" are the people who have bad recordings or bad vocals. No matter how good or as equal their song may be, the will get dings from the posters, and others follow suit, because they believe its ok, since it sounds bad.

If you really want to see how good your songwriting is try stripped down recordings. But dont be surprised if its not praised like better recordings are, which is a different thing than songwriting. Home recording forums are better for that, and whats funny is, you wont see any of the people responding there saying a word about the song, they could care a less, they critique the recording.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/30/19 10:19 AM.
#1152216 - 03/30/19 10:15 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Martin Lide]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
I think that you've got the big picture DJ.

Song critiquing, architectural critiquing and any critiquing are mostly searches for validation.
It's similar to politics...people want to hear what you have to say as long as it's what they want you to say.
If you tell someone that they are, in fact..."too fat"...every time that you get asked, don't look for that to turn out well. wink

After doing this for a few years on these ammy sites, treading lightly with occasional politely delivered truth is about all that makes sense to me...regarding critiquing.

If we were actually working on music that was going to enter the big time arena and jobs and lives depended on it's profitability, then some raw truth would be necessary. But...we aren't. We're trying to enjoy a passion.


However, feel free to say whatever you want about this post. wink

Marty


That's true, most are hobbyists here. But if coming here new, you dont know that. There's still alot of lurkers looking and listening without you knowing.

I have to disagree about it having to be "big time" to need to be critiqued, and ive seen the opposite here sometimes.

Any hobby, somebody playing golf, they still need to worry about form, they need to be sure their feet are set right, make sure they are standing the right way, follow through, touch, you could be playing for decades, and then run into somebody who really knows golf, and they might suggest you try something different, or show them what they might be doing wrong, even though they know this person is not going to the PGA championship

And alot of people would be "thinking" big time, it weren't for the business being the way it is. And there's still alot of people here who secretly pitch songs, but you wont hear about it until they get a yes.

I dont think anybody has to be harsh, and its not life or death, but if you look for consistency in the threads, you wont find it.

There's also some people who never improve at writing. Ive seen people on forums for year after year after year, and they never get any better, but people keep telling them they are good. Maybe if somebody said something years ago, they might have worked on their craft and gotten better, and maybe even gotten lucky with a cut.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/30/19 10:19 AM.
#1152252 - 03/30/19 12:25 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
FD....

For me it comes down to a practical decision. Do I want to come on this site and interact with people who I dont really know and tell the truth, knowing that some people will be incapable of not hating me for it? And may likely promote a dislike of me to others on the basis of the emotion.

e.g. "Yes. for the one hundredth time...you are effin' fat. You just are. By any objective standard. Skip an effin' meal or quit asking me."

Or do I want to navigate all of that gently and maintain a focus on developing my own writing.I don't claim to be a learned songwriter with insights to share.

At this point in my life, it's the latter.

Furthermore...some people around here are getting pretty good and with the help of DJ and Mike even more so. They are putting out real songs.
Not songs that might be real or could be real...but are real.
When I compliment those, I mean every syllable.

Marty

#1152253 - 03/30/19 12:36 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Martin Lide]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
FD....

For me it comes down to a practical decision. Do I want to come on this site and interact with people who I dont really know and tell the truth, knowing that some people will be incapable of not hating me for it? And may likely promote a dislike of me to others on the basis of the emotion.

e.g. "Yes. for the one hundredth time...you are effin' fat. You just are. Skip an effin' meal or quit asking me."

Or do I want to navigate all of that gently and maintain a focus on developing my own writing.I don't claim to be a learned songwriter with insights to share.

At this point in my life, it's the latter.

Furthermore...some people around here are getting pretty good and with the help of DJ and Mike even more so. They are putting out real songs.
Not songs that might be real or could be real...but are real.
When I compliment those, I mean every syllable.

Marty


Whats a real song?

#1152259 - 03/30/19 01:09 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
FD....

For me it comes down to a practical decision. Do I want to come on this site and interact with people who I dont really know and tell the truth, knowing that some people will be incapable of not hating me for it? And may likely promote a dislike of me to others on the basis of the emotion.

e.g. "Yes. for the one hundredth time...you are effin' fat. You just are. Skip an effin' meal or quit asking me."

Or do I want to navigate all of that gently and maintain a focus on developing my own writing.I don't claim to be a learned songwriter with insights to share.

At this point in my life, it's the latter.

Furthermore...some people around here are getting pretty good and with the help of DJ and Mike even more so. They are putting out real songs.
Not songs that might be real or could be real...but are real.
When I compliment those, I mean every syllable.

Marty


Whats a real song?



We all have different measuring sticks. Mine is my wife. She's glad that I have my songwriting hobby but is not deeply invested in them emotionally. She has her own hobbies and interests.

When I am playing someone's song on my desk speakers and she yells from the other room..."that's terrible."

That's not a real song.

When she says..."that sounds pretty good. It sounds like an actual song."

That's a real song.

All opinions matter, I suppose. But personally, I don't think that esoteric opinions about the potential of bad or rough recordings are as valid as a lay opinions about whether what was heard was good or bad. Artists of all types figure out odd and creative ways of looking at things. Lay people just listen and like or not at face value.

#1152260 - 03/30/19 01:41 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
There was a conversation in another thread about how "friendships hurt honest critiquing" and I think this is nonsense.

Anybody who has real honest to goodness friends (and most of us do) know that to get to that plateau some form of honesty and candor was reached. I have friends here, and when they say something negative about a song, I take it far more seriously than from someone I have had little contact with or someone who is wrapped up in a cocoon of anonymity, which to me kills any potential trust, the key factor in friendship..

Certainly a non-friend can give an honest critique, but they are also far more likely to be motivated by something other than how they really feel about the song. If you get a negative comment from a known troll, how can you ever trust that it's coming from an honest place, especially if that dissent stands alone from what others say? And even then, they could simply be jumping on a bandwagon without any real consideration of the song.

I strive for friendship with my JPF compats and one of the main reasons is that I want to be able to take in everything they say with complete trust. Being here is like being in a cross between a think tank and a party, but we're all blindfolded and so what we say takes on much more significance than if we saw body language and facial expressions. It takes work to communicate well here (and in social media in general) cuz it is more demanding than when we have sight.

Deej, Maybe I missed a post you deleted, but I agree with what I did read. When I listen to songs, I hear good and bad, for sure..I may be more prone to mention good to a newbie for the very reasons you mention. Does that make my comments BS? Of course not, and it only would to someone lacking in basic communication skills. Maybe the offspring of The Great Santini or some other archetypal "tough love" dad might be acted out or channeled through when they give tough love reviews, here. The thing that kills me is..they no doubt hear the good in the song they are saying only negative things about..yet something prevents them from balancing their review so that the receiver can actually not come away feeling like crap. It makes you wonder if the intent was to make the receiver feel like crap, especially if it is a review coming from a non-friend. Or if they are lacking in empathy? Perhaps slouching towards sociapathology?

I think the definition of "friend" has changed a lot with the coming of social media. I have maybe a few hundred Facebook friends, I don't know cuz I barely use the site. I'd say maybe 30-40 of those people I really would trust enough to call real friends. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trust a negative comment by one of the other 90%, only I would more likely reach for a consensus then, needing a stricter standard for believing that comment. And when I see that the comment is framed as an opinion, I am far more likely to mull it over. When someone cannot take the time to add "I think" or "I believe" or "I feel" or IMO..anywhere in their critique or comments, I feel this terror rise up in my gut, cuz it's like the voice of God is talking to me! They have access to truth and so I better believe what they say..and then I become aware of these sensations some ten seconds later and put them in check..but the damage was done, and I will find it hard to trust those comments. God is probably the only truly omniscient voice, and so if you choose to remind me you are just little you with your comment, I am FAR more likely to listen and take it seriously. People who pose as God when they review are probably archetypal Oz figures, feeling like fakes inside and putting on masks..jmo..LOL....

Yes, I believe in the opposite of those comments in that thread that said, "friendship kills honest critiquing." I believe in striving for friendship so as to be able to trust the comments from that person. I think anyone who would honestly think that way might truly consider re-assing those faux friendships that lack honesty. Honesty just comes with the territory of real friendship, I believe.

If you are in a friendship, on JPF or otherwise, and feel shy about being honest with your friend cuz you think they're gonna be defensive of something, than maybe look at that..it might still be a friendship, but perhaps lacking 3 dimensions..?

And in order for friendships to grow and not stagnate..when you come to that crossroads. of......should I say what I feel cuz it might hurt..or should I not..what would you imagine the choice leading to potential growth would be? And be creative and gentle in the process..and watch your friendship grow.

It is far easier to have friends here if you have a name and a face, and much easier to understand friendships if you have them. here or otherwise..and I feel awful for those that are lonely in that sense, cuz all the breezy talk they can muster here is just lost on most folks, since the potential for friendship is not there, and as a result, that trust can never be there either...

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/30/19 02:15 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152264 - 03/30/19 04:10 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
There was a conversation in another thread about how "friendships hurt honest critiquing" and I think this is nonsense.

Anybody who has real honest to goodness friends (and most of us do) know that to get to that plateau some form of honesty and candor was reached. I have friends here, and when they say something negative about a song, I take it far more seriously than from someone I have had little contact with or someone who is wrapped up in a cocoon of anonymity, which to me kills any potential trust, the key factor in friendship..

Certainly a non-friend can give an honest critique, but they are also far more likely to be motivated by something other than how they really feel about the song. If you get a negative comment from a known troll, how can you ever trust that it's coming from an honest place, especially if that dissent stands alone from what others say? And even then, they could simply be jumping on a bandwagon without any real consideration of the song.

I strive for friendship with my JPF compats and one of the main reasons is that I want to be able to take in everything they say with complete trust. Being here is like being in a cross between a think tank and a party, but we're all blindfolded and so what we say takes on much more significance than if we saw body language and facial expressions. It takes work to communicate well here (and in social media in general) cuz it is more demanding than when we have sight.

Deej, Maybe I missed a post you deleted, but I agree with what I did read. When I listen to songs, I hear good and bad, for sure..I may be more prone to mention good to a newbie for the very reasons you mention. Does that make my comments BS? Of course not, and it only would to someone lacking in basic communication skills. Maybe the offspring of The Great Santini or some other archetypal "tough love" dad might be acted out or channeled through when they give tough love reviews, here. The thing that kills me is..they no doubt hear the good in the song they are saying only negative things about..yet something prevents them from balancing their review so that the receiver can actually not come away feeling like crap. It makes you wonder if the intent was to make the receiver feel like crap, especially if it is a review coming from a non-friend. Or if they are lacking in empathy? Perhaps slouching towards sociapathology?

I think the definition of "friend" has changed a lot with the coming of social media. I have maybe a few hundred Facebook friends, I don't know cuz I barely use the site. I'd say maybe 30-40 of those people I really would trust enough to call real friends. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trust a negative comment by one of the other 90%, only I would more likely reach for a consensus then, needing a stricter standard for believing that comment. And when I see that the comment is framed as an opinion, I am far more likely to mull it over. When someone cannot take the time to add "I think" or "I believe" or "I feel" or IMO..anywhere in their critique or comments, I feel this terror rise up in my gut, cuz it's like the voice of God is talking to me! They have access to truth and so I better believe what they say..and then I become aware of these sensations some ten seconds later and put them in check..but the damage was done, and I will find it hard to trust those comments. God is probably the only truly omniscient voice, and so if you choose to remind me you are just little you with your comment, I am FAR more likely to listen and take it seriously. People who pose as God when they review are probably archetypal Oz figures, feeling like fakes inside and putting on masks..jmo..LOL....

Yes, I believe in the opposite of those comments in that thread that said, "friendship kills honest critiquing." I believe in striving for friendship so as to be able to trust the comments from that person. I think anyone who would honestly think that way might truly consider re-assing those faux friendships that lack honesty. Honesty just comes with the territory of real friendship, I believe.

If you are in a friendship, on JPF or otherwise, and feel shy about being honest with your friend cuz you think they're gonna be defensive of something, than maybe look at that..it might still be a friendship, but perhaps lacking 3 dimensions..?

And in order for friendships to grow and not stagnate..when you come to that crossroads. of......should I say what I feel cuz it might hurt..or should I not..what would you imagine the choice leading to potential growth would be? And be creative and gentle in the process..and watch your friendship grow.

It is far easier to have friends here if you have a name and a face, and much easier to understand friendships if you have them. here or otherwise..and I feel awful for those that are lonely in that sense, cuz all the breezy talk they can muster here is just lost on most folks, since the potential for friendship is not there, and as a result, that trust can never be there either...

Mike


Mike, I THINK you live in a fantasy world. I dont care if two people are married for 50 years, if one of them posts a song, and the spouse goes in and says, this is weak, the melody is bland, the chord progression wrong, that will still cause a fight. As Martin had hinted, never answer your wife if she asks if she looks fat in her dress.

Random critiques are the best, I dont care what anyone says. When I say friendships, I dont mean people who hang out and go to the bar together, I mean people who have formed alliances, like yourself and Travis have, because you worked on his songs. But with alliances comes allegence. And I THINK it shouldn't be viewed as "trolling" when somebody says something is lacking in a song. That is what the whole buddy system creates, a sense of "you're being a troll if you dont say nice things about my work"

And, how do you tell somebody their work is weak, when you talk to them on a daily basis?

Perhaps a private screening room where only people who want in go in and be honest... is something to think about.

Nobody likes getting critiqued. Its very personal, and I have gotten pissed of at some folks for critiquing me in the past. But whether I like it or not, it's still good. In two ways, it could enlighten me, or it could strengthen my own belief in my music, realizing that the person commenting may not know much. Even the greatest songs of all time are not liked by many people. and thought of as crap by others. Why nothing here is considered the same, I can only surmise its because people dont want to ruffle feathers here...never chit where you sleep as Dad used to say. But is it fruitful?

If the songs were great, written great, performed great, sung great, you wouldnt get that kind of response no matter what you said to anybody.

99% of the songs posted here are of the mediocre variety. There is stuff that is better than others HERE, but not good in reality. Nobody is going to rush out to buy the albums. Did anybody buy the albums of artists here? Was it cause they are too cheap to buy it, or because you feel like, "why should I buy theres, somebody should by mine" or that nobody buys any music at all, but the bottom line is it's not great music.

I bought several tracks from people on this site, not because I thought it was the greatest piece of music I ever heard, or even something I would listen to, but because I was supporting them. I bought many singles from people who didnt even like me, and didnt even thank me. Most of the time they didnt even know i bought it

The ONLY other time I bought music of of cdbaby, which was something for myself to listen to, Was a guy by the name of Willie NIle. I had never heard of him before but stumbled on him by accident, through the "sounds like" category. I was absolutely floored. I couldn't believe he wasn't a big star, although he was bigger than I had thought.

But i bought that right off cd baby thinking it was some indie, it wasnt really. But thats how good something needs to be for somebody to open their wallet to buy your product.

Coming up with a decent tune, a decent lyric, and a decent recording, is so commonplace, I could get my niece to write a song, and she is only a journalism major, she dont write songs, but I could get her to write a song, have you record it, and people here would still say it was great.

I believe in the whole "music is just an expression of yourself" that is very true. I dont believe music is a competition and everybody has a unique view just as they all have unique faces and unique fingerprints.

But isnt there a need to see if the stuff your making is good?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/30/19 04:14 PM.
#1152265 - 03/30/19 04:24 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Martin Lide]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
FD....

For me it comes down to a practical decision. Do I want to come on this site and interact with people who I dont really know and tell the truth, knowing that some people will be incapable of not hating me for it? And may likely promote a dislike of me to others on the basis of the emotion.

e.g. "Yes. for the one hundredth time...you are effin' fat. You just are. Skip an effin' meal or quit asking me."

Or do I want to navigate all of that gently and maintain a focus on developing my own writing.I don't claim to be a learned songwriter with insights to share.

At this point in my life, it's the latter.

Furthermore...some people around here are getting pretty good and with the help of DJ and Mike even more so. They are putting out real songs.
Not songs that might be real or could be real...but are real.
When I compliment those, I mean every syllable.

Marty


Whats a real song?



We all have different measuring sticks. Mine is my wife. She's glad that I have my songwriting hobby but is not deeply invested in them emotionally. She has her own hobbies and interests.

When I am playing someone's song on my desk speakers and she yells from the other room..."that's terrible."

That's not a real song.

When she says..."that sounds pretty good. It sounds like an actual song."

That's a real song.

All opinions matter, I suppose. But personally, I don't think that esoteric opinions about the potential of bad or rough recordings are as valid as a lay opinions about whether what was heard was good or bad. Artists of all types figure out odd and creative ways of looking at things. Lay people just listen and like or not at face value.


I missed your post. I THINK, sounding good and being good are two different things. This sounds good dont it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV2s0UIPOQY

A production and recording gadget song, sounds good, but its in no way a good song.

#1152269 - 03/30/19 06:36 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
I'm unconcerned with that song. I was referring to songs written by people on this site that sound good specifically.
Beyond that I believe that any song needs to sound good to be eligible to be considered as overall good. I don't think having potential to be a good song is the same thing as a song being good. So-ng, So-ound.

It seems to me that you have to prove it up with songs.

Marty

#1152270 - 03/30/19 08:19 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio

Mike, I THINK you live in a fantasy world. I don't care if two people are married for 50 years, if one of them posts a song, and the spouse goes in and says, this is weak, the melody is bland, the chord progression wrong, that will still cause a fight. As Martin had hinted, never answer your wife if she asks if she looks fat in her dress.


Is "JPF relationships are a kind of marriage" a good analogy? I don't think so. I think they're apples and oranges. Yes, the intimacy involved in marriage means that sometimes compromise is the best solution to a problem since you are committed to be with that person, up close and personal on a daily basis. There is no such intimacy between folks here..or very little.

Am I living in a fantasy world? It's the same world as you. I am maybe not as cynical as you. Do note, I say I "strive" for honesty in friendships and critiques. Sometimes it is not easy, but I think it IS something to strive for, and if that means I live in a fantasy world, I'm okay with that.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Random critiques are the best, I don't care what anyone says.


Maybe if you pay an expert for a critique, and you don't know them from Adam. But from a guy who joins JPF and has five posts, and rips into a song? No way. No one knows who that guy is. let him/her establish themselves and prove they are at least not a troll come back in another guise, or someone who just doesn't like the guy/gal they're critiquing.

"I don't care what anyone says" --very telling statement on your part.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I mean people who have formed alliances, like yourself and Travis have, because you worked on his songs.


You assume to know that I am a "yes man" with Travis because we have formed an "alliance" ..?

There's a lot to chew there. First off, when John shows me a possible lyric for a song demo, I am extremely tough on that lyric. John himself can tell you I have no problem telling him when I think a lyric he has presented me needs work.. Are we still friends? I believe so. Is it hard to take? Nah..I don't think so..we're old guys who have come to trust each other enough to know we're coming from a good place..and that means we've shared some OT talk and feel a bit of a kinship towards one another. And we have fought, too, and that's all part of the process of being friends and becoming better friends.

I do believe there is a strong connection between friendship and trust that can play an important part in how much value we choose to place in a critique.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
But with alliances comes allegence. And I THINK it shouldn't be viewed as "trolling" when somebody says something is lacking in a song. That is what the whole buddy system creates, a sense of "you're being a troll if you dont say nice things about my work


This is tantamount to saying "JPFers are in competition with one another." And certainly if you believe that then you are probably acting on that and helping to make that a reality. But there are those of us here to whom JPF is LESS about alliances and allegiances and the competitive attitude that comes with that, but more like a place to listen to and critique some songs, talk with folks, get opinions on our stuff, and make friends. Like I said, I think I'm a bit less cynical than you.


Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
99% of the songs posted here are of the mediocre variety.


"Random critiques are the best," "99%..mediocre.."

I think we should all be vary wary of anyone that wants to reduce complex things to Twitter-like soundbytes. It's a problem endemic to our times, for sure. Honesty in friendship is a complex thing. Critiquing folks that are somewhere between acquaintances and real friends--is a complex thing. Should we risk it, or stay in this safe place and go on like always..sooner or later--if not dealt with--these kinds of situations can fester into a bigger problem, or the friendship or potential friendship fizzles..or remains static..and then decades can pass in this way, and it all seems kinda sad, you know? Risks not taken.

Friendship is an important part of JPF for me. For several years, this place was my lifeline when I was taking care of my bedridden mother. I can understand how, for others, this aspect may be less important. And so the problem of having and making friends while being honest in critiques and other things has been something I've thought about a lot, over the years.

You talk about strangers. You are still a kind of stranger. What do we know about you? Not much..no name, no face, very little personal history..What we do know about you is that you would not remain banned and came back more than a dozen times under various guises, no doubt raising the blood pressure of a man who would have at least one rather serious stroke. You might be a total saint, now, and everything you say might be coming from an honest place, but very few who saw all this go down can trust a person who STILL chooses to remain faceless and nameless in the wake of all that. Maybe if we actually knew more about who you are, it could help balance things out. I don't know.

Yes, I get it: you really, really need this place. Something that you probably won't even admit. But you DO need it, and that's fine. Who am I to deprive you of something you need. But I and many others who remember back a few years will always have a hard time taking ANYTHING you have to say with anything other than a extremely big grain of salt. Others like Robert Gustafson just leave, and I can totally get that..

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/31/19 03:56 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152273 - 03/30/19 09:52 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,948
maccharles Offline
Top 200 Poster
maccharles  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,948
My crits are always based on the old addage "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"....and I follow that line.

On the receiving side, "thin skin? Don't come in"

Confidence is key, one should always have a decent idea of one's abilities.......if not, one has to deal with the cuts being deeper.

I find the worst crits come from those with the least to offer, the people with almost zero catalog and a santa bag of suggs.

But three cents is usually ignored.

#1152274 - 03/30/19 10:41 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
Deej56 Offline
Top 500 Poster
Deej56  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
Hey, all:

Oh boy . . . sorry folks, I really didn’t mean to stir up a debate among and between fellow members. And I realized my initial post, which was up last night for all of an hour maybe before I deleted it, would have done just that . . . to no avail, because here we are. So, for what little merit it may be, below are some of the thoughts I included in my initial post, all my opinion and none of it necessarily right or wrong.

I also deleted the initial post because—while it was good for me to vent a bit, even if to myself—I’m not sure how productive it is debating a subjective art such as music, which was where it was sure to go (and has). The main premise rather was simply to present a viewpoint contrary to the view that the feedback on the site is pollyanna, insincere or mutual “backslapping”—and not of substance. I just don’t believe that.

What I do see is this:

1. A small (and sadly diminishing) community of songwriters (established and aspiring alike) who are driven to create and share their works, and in the process perhaps (though not necessarily a goal for everyone) improve.

2. A community that understands the reality of the music industry . . . so much so that in the end what we do here is more about us bringing each other joy and pleasure in what we have to offer (and the joy and pleasure—sometimes, I guess—in the feedback we receive) than it is about any realistic aspirations that any of us will move on to “greater" things.

3. A community that does give constructive feedback . . . in fact, skimming through the top 15 or so threads on the MP3 forum, almost all of them include feedback on how to improve the song.

4. A community that appreciates the effort and courage it takes to create and post an original work, and takes time to support and encourage our fellow posters, pointing out the positive aspects of the work as well as those areas that may need work.

Giving honest feedback, and being respectful of our peers—whether friend or newcomer—is not mutually exclusive. Taking the time to acknowledge the positive aspects of a song despite its shortcomings, without throwing the artist through the “grinder”—and despite whether the song suits our particular taste—does not amount to insincere or meritless praise.

More broadly, I for one don’t believe I’m the ultimate authority on what is “great” songwriting. And with all due respect to everyone on the board, I don't think anyone else is either. Half of what we think we know about what makes a song great goes unnoticed by far more than half of those who hear it, and the remainder just don’t care . . . as long as they love what they hear. A song is more than the sum of its parts--there's simply no science to it.

So, yes, honest and constructive feedback by all means . . . let’s help each other get better with what little we know and can offer . . . but a kind word and encouragement goes a long way. This is, after all, a community . . . of “just plain folks.” And I don’t think we should mistake politeness, mutual respect, thoughtfulness and civility for insincerity, or think that only a harsh word gives a critique credulity.

Anyway, that was pretty much the gist of my original post, for better or worse. And there are some other great thoughts above that I fully concur with. Well, have at me if you will . . . but be both honest and kind, LOL. smirk

My best and utmost regards to you all.

Deej

Last edited by Deej56; 03/31/19 12:57 AM.
#1152282 - 03/31/19 01:56 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
Hi Deej,

I can tell by the tone of your voice that you're a good guy.

The tone of how you speak, for one..and then your beautiful singing voice..

Then reading what you have to say here..I doubt the original would gave rubbed anyone wrong--I may be wrong, but I doubt it is in your nature to be offensive!

I agree 100% with everything you say, here. You seem to have a more comprehensive "from-the-mountaintop" view than some of us, understanding the value of being supportive and how that means finding something good to say with the bad. How did you put it? "Giving honest feedback, and being respectful of our peers—whether friend or newcomer—is not mutually exclusive." --that is so very true.

If some folks think we're a bunch of back-slapping, sweetheart-dealing, mutual palm greasers, they should go look in at the BIAB forum. Never anything negative ever ever EVER spoken there. Now THAT, to me, feels kinda unreal, and I wouldn't want to be a part of that scene, as much as I love the software. I would start to fish for the truth in variations on how someone worded their praise, ha! ("Hmmm...he only said "nice work" once..usually it's three times..he must really think this is shite.." --kinda thing)

We're not some Gawdawful Reddit forum full of pessimism, either. We're mostly in that middle ground, and that's where it can get tricky. We have room, here, to be ourselves, and there's room for all kinds of critiquing styles. Like you, I just personally have a hard time with the Hemmingway variation. wink

Watching you and others get better at your craft and grow as musicians/composers/producers makes me really happy to see. Being part of this process makes me feel more human. This at a time where the world can feel awfully dehumanizing. So thanks for that.

And sorry for any derailment I may have caused with my prior comments. My heart is in the right place.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/31/19 02:16 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152286 - 03/31/19 04:17 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,534
Travis david Online content
Top 10 Poster
Travis david  Online Content
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,534
Kendal, Cumbria .UK
Mac you are bang on. There's a fine line between friendly helpful suggestions and ruining a guys confidence so that he/ she goes away thinking they are useless and sadly give up.
Dave and Mike
Two guys i've worked with quite a lot over the past year and in many ways very much alike. Only wish i could spinkle their ethos over the flagging boards.
Shouldn't have to be reading threads like this. Courtesy consideration and having values should come as standard

Last edited by Travis david; 03/31/19 04:19 AM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1152302 - 03/31/19 11:52 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,870
Neil Cotton Online content
Top 50 Poster
Neil Cotton  Online Content
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,870
Georgetown, ON,CANADA
Sandwich critique...something good, needs improvement, something good

#1152303 - 03/31/19 12:15 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Travis david]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Travis david
Mac you are bang on. There's a fine line between friendly helpful suggestions and ruining a guys confidence so that he/ she goes away thinking they are useless and sadly give up.
Dave and Mike
Two guys i've worked with quite a lot over the past year and in many ways very much alike. Only wish i could spinkle their ethos over the flagging boards.
Shouldn't have to be reading threads like this. Courtesy consideration and having values should come as standard


I dunno Travis.

At this point in my life, there isnt going to be any ruination of my songwriting confidence as the result of someone's opinion. I'm very passionate about my songwriting hobby but I keep it in perspective. If someone comes along and says something negative, I look at the remark and decide if there is merit to it. If there is, I catalogue it. If I decide not, "Frankly my dear,...

If someone's confidence is unseated by a caustic comment on a forum, that is just a very small part of their overall problem. The harsh cold world that FD talks about is out there. He is right about that. That is, in fact, the world as it stands and someone who has any aspirations of getting their songs anywhere in that world, needs to seek it out and take the hits. Though the odds are overwhelmingly against them.

But what I think is lost on FD is that this forum is not that hard cold world and has no reason to be. It's a small (active) collection of people with a shared passion who need feel no obligation to deliver the brutal truth to others here for the sake of the brutal truth.

Mike and DJ got it right. Not coincidentally, the two of them get my vote for doing massively more to enhance the overall level of quality here than any friggin' critiques being made...because of the embellishments created by their individual skills and talents.

That's my viewpoint. If anyone doesn't like it...."Frankly my dear,.... wink

#1152309 - 03/31/19 02:05 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
I realized late last night that what I've been saying here is not so different from what MAB says in many of his very instructive, informative threads and posts. Build relationships and make connections..he may have been talking more about how to become successful in Nashville, but his ideas apply anywhere and with everyone and in most situations in life. Plus, doing those things are their own reward. He wasn't saying "use people to build a network that will help you get ahead" --he was saying be a genuine person and get out there and if there's talent there, the ball is then rolling.." --more something like that.

MAB and I come from very different walks of life, but have both walked the walk, and come to arrive at some of the same conclusions about it..

I completely understand the concept that a "stranger" has no investment and his/her comments can potentially be more objective. But I think every one of us was taught early on to "not take candy from strangers." And so there is much resistance to the idea that perhaps, in some instances, taking that candy, whether sweet or harsh, might be an okay thing. I agree with Marty's comment "I look at the remark and decide if there is merit to it. If there is, I catalogue it." So perhaps a case-by-case basis is best and it is less good to abide by some generalized rule.

I completely understand that for some folks here, the perc of possible friendship with members is nice when it happens but no big deal. Still, I believe there is a path not unlike MAB's of building and showing character and being a vulnerable, real person, and open to growing relationships in life and on sites like this that are "life-in-miniature" that is healthy and can add much joy to the work. And "trust" and building relationships are a big part of the fun. Certainly if one has been here years and has remained a "stranger" to everyone, one would promote, basically, "taking candy from strangers."

The thing about confidence, to me, is...there's a lot of folks in this world not as blessed as to be able to use that confidence as a shield from the harshness of the real world. There are many, many, different kinds of people walking around, and everyone of us fits a slightly different profile. In the Darwinian scheme of things, many of these folks who should have made it--didn't..and precisely because the harsh world swallowed them up. I get it.

And I feel sorrow for those folks..cuz for many, many years I was one of them. Drinking until I blacked out most every night, throughout most of my twenties and thirties. I was an honor student who somehow ended up in Reno, Nevada, working as waiter at the age of 18, and then the next 25 years or so as an underpaid shift manager at various Tower Record stores around the country. I took enough time to study music and psychology but got no degree, and pretty much drifted through life for a long time. I am reminded of an Eric Bogosian skit where he plays an aging rock star who is supposed to be talking about how bad drugs are, and obviously still has mixed feelings about them..he says at one point, "I was having so much fun, I didn't realize how miserable I was" --until of course the day that inevitably comes where it stops being fun in any way, shape, or form. I am lucky to be alive, really. If not for the grace of God..

But looking back at that lifestyle..it is as if I was asleep for 30 years, then woke up after I started taking care of my mom who became bedridden..and emotionally it was too much for me..until I changed my lifestyle sometime around 2005-7 (been sober for over a decade now) and focused on doing good work, taking care of her. Now having and building character (and relationships) is important to me, and being someone real..is important..and being vulnerable is too..and probably because this is something I just can't escape being--I never had enough confidence for it to be a rock solid shield from the machinations of strangers with candy.

And so I arrive at a place not so different from Marc's. He says "relationship" --I say "friend" but what follows is pretty much the same. And this way feels right for me. I feel like a real human being now..took a long time to get here..

Non-sequitur...I miss Midnite Bob (Robert Gustafson)....you would read three posts by the guy, and you felt like you knew him. He was so damn personable..he was a really lovable cat whom I miss seeing here very much. This is how little I use Facebook..I should go say hi..

Lastly..back to "strangers with candy" LOL..They can certainly be objective, but there are layers of psychological barriers that prevent what they say to mean as much as that which comes from a friend. Yes, friends can opt for the safety of giving a pat on the back, when they could have added something negative to their positive, but that's on them, and I believe in the real world, it actually benefits friendship and makes the possibility of that friendship growing deeper and become stronger. I guess it's about deciding what you want from a place like this, and more generally from life--if you are okay with static friendships or want something more dynamic with the potential for growth.

I say beware of slogans and generalizing. Strangers and close friends? I would say most of the relationships here are at various points in between these two poles-- "strangers" on the left and "close friends" on the right-- It feels good, in most relationships, when we can feel them move right.. smile

I think making friends is a nice perc of being here and of being open and sharing. A certain amount of discomfort is inevitable, but I know for a fact none of us are here with the intention of making each other's live's miserable..

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/31/19 08:39 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152315 - 03/31/19 05:44 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,799
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,799
Denmark
I think its like real life here. You have to prove you can small talk about nothing and everything, before you can get to the point where you belt your heart out. You build trust one small step at a time.

Critique means that you use criteria (standards) to evaluate something. And not knowing who people are, and what standards are true for a specific piece of music, you need more posts and more time to navigate.

Mostly people dont critique (use standards) at all, but just comment as music lovers, appreciating the effort and the work you put into it. Just laymans opinions, which frankly are closer to the people listening to and buying music (not that there are many left). Im not sure if it is actually worth it to have an allknowing dude/dudette pointing out every small hair that sits the wrong way, in their opinion. We are all crazy, and if you take the crazy out, music becomes really boring and meritless..

JPF is just a great way to small talk, share music efforts and converse with likeminded people who loves music. Im from an age before Internet, where there wasnt places like this around. As a shy kid it was hard to go out, and break the ice with other people without being intimidated by the fast talkers, not to mention getting to a point in a conversation actually talking about music..

Now go out in the forum world, be mindful, take it easy and make a positive difference, just because you can..


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/buzztracks
#1152327 - 03/31/19 11:53 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,809
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,809
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Deej56
Well, after posting for a short while a long defense of the quality of feedback we receive from our fellow JPF members and the merits of this website, I think discretion is the better part of valor . . . and I'll stay on the sidelines.

But there's part of what I did write that I will share, and it's this:

"I’d simply take this opportunity to salute and thank my fellow members of the JPF community. I remember when I posted my first song here, with great trepidation and reluctance. . . it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic . . . I tell you honestly, if I got the type of blunt, harsh reactions that perhaps I deserved, rather than the encouragement and kind, supportive feedback that I did receive, I might never had the courage to post again."

So thank you JPF for your tolerance and kind welcome and fellowship.

My best regards to all of you,

Deej


The merits of this site for me are, 1. sharing thoughts on music or other stuff, if it comes up. 2. Finding collaborators, I dont need them, but I see its value for finding people to write songs with, especially for lyricists. Some folks would not have any collabs if not for this site. 3. Networking

But this quote: "I’d simply take this opportunity to salute and thank my fellow members of the JPF community. I remember when I posted my first song here, with great trepidation and reluctance. . . it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic . . . I tell you honestly, if I got the type of blunt, harsh reactions that perhaps I deserved, rather than the encouragement and kind, supportive feedback that I did receive, I might never had the courage to post again."

Look what you wrote "it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic"

That doesnt make a song crap, but its perceieved as crap because people want to hear recordings. Recordings are not songs. And I think people have figured out, that the best way to make people think your songs are good and you;re good, is to have good recordings of the songs. Thats not true at all.

If the song was good all you would need is a vocal good enough to hit the melody and clear enough to be heard. But when people do that, they dont get the same responses as somebody whos putting up polished tracks, thats why they go through all the rings to get a recording.

The only people who get "picked on" are the people who have bad recordings or bad vocals. No matter how good or as equal their song may be, the will get dings from the posters, and others follow suit, because they believe its ok, since it sounds bad.

If you really want to see how good your songwriting is try stripped down recordings. But dont be surprised if its not praised like better recordings are, which is a different thing than songwriting. Home recording forums are better for that, and whats funny is, you wont see any of the people responding there saying a word about the song, they could care a less, they critique the recording.


Perhaps that has been your experience, but it isn't just here that people want polished presentations. If someone says "this is a basic vocal/guitar only demo to get the song, melody and lyrics down. What do you think? Most people won't STILL expect a finished song. However if you say "This is my new single, what do you think?" then people SHOULD expect a finished song, or should alert someone that it isn't ready for commercial release if it isn't. I think the responsibility rests with the person ASKING for help. Be clear on what you are presenting and what you are looking for? "Hey, this is a vocal/piano demo of a song I am working on. Do you think the lyrics work, especially in how the bridge ties the story together transitioning the "all is lost" moment into the solution and resolution at the end of the song. Etc. If you want a good critique, take the time to explain what you want from them. If you say "this is my song, feedback please" then any fault with the results is entirely on the poster, not the listener/critique giver. It's okay to say "I am a beginner and this is my first song. Am I on the right track?" Now you've given the listener CONTEXT that they can work with. Sadly most people expect brilliant and deep responses when they can't be bothered to offer need CONTEXT to what they are posting. I think most of the time it is either someone too new to know better, or laziness. I can happily help the first, but I owe nothing to the latter. Context also extends to who the person is. Do they help critique others? Are they brand new? Are they someone who posts over and over and not only doesn't critique anyone else, but also doesn't even reply or thank the people who DO spend the time to listen and offer their thoughts. New people should get a pass, but hopefully a polite lesson on how to be more effective in posting for feedback. But for people who should know better, without some staging and context offered by the poster, they have little right to complain or be unhappy with the results. Effort In usually equals Quality of Results on the other side in all things. It is perfectly fine to set the parameters of what you want and then the listener can decide if they want to spend their time offer what the poster is looking for. That's a fair exchange.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1152336 - 04/01/19 10:32 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio

Mike, I THINK you live in a fantasy world. I don't care if two people are married for 50 years, if one of them posts a song, and the spouse goes in and says, this is weak, the melody is bland, the chord progression wrong, that will still cause a fight. As Martin had hinted, never answer your wife if she asks if she looks fat in her dress.


Is "JPF relationships are a kind of marriage" a good analogy? I don't think so. I think they're apples and oranges. Yes, the intimacy involved in marriage means that sometimes compromise is the best solution to a problem since you are committed to be with that person, up close and personal on a daily basis. There is no such intimacy between folks here..or very little.

Am I living in a fantasy world? It's the same world as you. I am maybe not as cynical as you. Do note, I say I "strive" for honesty in friendships and critiques. Sometimes it is not easy, but I think it IS something to strive for, and if that means I live in a fantasy world, I'm okay with that.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Random critiques are the best, I don't care what anyone says.


Maybe if you pay an expert for a critique, and you don't know them from Adam. But from a guy who joins JPF and has five posts, and rips into a song? No way. No one knows who that guy is. let him/her establish themselves and prove they are at least not a troll come back in another guise, or someone who just doesn't like the guy/gal they're critiquing.

"I don't care what anyone says" --very telling statement on your part.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I mean people who have formed alliances, like yourself and Travis have, because you worked on his songs.


You assume to know that I am a "yes man" with Travis because we have formed an "alliance" ..?

There's a lot to chew there. First off, when John shows me a possible lyric for a song demo, I am extremely tough on that lyric. John himself can tell you I have no problem telling him when I think a lyric he has presented me needs work.. Are we still friends? I believe so. Is it hard to take? Nah..I don't think so..we're old guys who have come to trust each other enough to know we're coming from a good place..and that means we've shared some OT talk and feel a bit of a kinship towards one another. And we have fought, too, and that's all part of the process of being friends and becoming better friends.

I do believe there is a strong connection between friendship and trust that can play an important part in how much value we choose to place in a critique.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
But with alliances comes allegence. And I THINK it shouldn't be viewed as "trolling" when somebody says something is lacking in a song. That is what the whole buddy system creates, a sense of "you're being a troll if you dont say nice things about my work


This is tantamount to saying "JPFers are in competition with one another." And certainly if you believe that then you are probably acting on that and helping to make that a reality. But there are those of us here to whom JPF is LESS about alliances and allegiances and the competitive attitude that comes with that, but more like a place to listen to and critique some songs, talk with folks, get opinions on our stuff, and make friends. Like I said, I think I'm a bit less cynical than you.


Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
99% of the songs posted here are of the mediocre variety.


"Random critiques are the best," "99%..mediocre.."

I think we should all be vary wary of anyone that wants to reduce complex things to Twitter-like soundbytes. It's a problem endemic to our times, for sure. Honesty in friendship is a complex thing. Critiquing folks that are somewhere between acquaintances and real friends--is a complex thing. Should we risk it, or stay in this safe place and go on like always..sooner or later--if not dealt with--these kinds of situations can fester into a bigger problem, or the friendship or potential friendship fizzles..or remains static..and then decades can pass in this way, and it all seems kinda sad, you know? Risks not taken.

Friendship is an important part of JPF for me. For several years, this place was my lifeline when I was taking care of my bedridden mother. I can understand how, for others, this aspect may be less important. And so the problem of having and making friends while being honest in critiques and other things has been something I've thought about a lot, over the years.

You talk about strangers. You are still a kind of stranger. What do we know about you? Not much..no name, no face, very little personal history..What we do know about you is that you would not remain banned and came back more than a dozen times under various guises, no doubt raising the blood pressure of a man who would have at least one rather serious stroke. You might be a total saint, now, and everything you say might be coming from an honest place, but very few who saw all this go down can trust a person who STILL chooses to remain faceless and nameless in the wake of all that. Maybe if we actually knew more about who you are, it could help balance things out. I don't know.

Yes, I get it: you really, really need this place. Something that you probably won't even admit. But you DO need it, and that's fine. Who am I to deprive you of something you need. But I and many others who remember back a few years will always have a hard time taking ANYTHING you have to say with anything other than a extremely big grain of salt. Others like Robert Gustafson just leave, and I can totally get that..

Mike



Is "JPF relationships are a kind of marriage" a good analogy? I don't think so.

"Maybe if you pay an expert for a critique, and you don't know them from Adam. But from a guy who joins JPF and has five posts, and rips into a song? No way. No one knows who that guy is. let him/her establish themselves and prove they are at least not a troll come back in another guise, or someone who just doesn't like the guy/gal they're critiquing." ...........

Yes, it's a great analogy. Because the person felt you and he or you and she were "tight". But then you come in and make me look bad in front of other people. Now, I dont trust you, when we are talking in private, and you go on about my work, maybe you were full of crap, because you said something different to the public" Or, you said i look fat in this dress when over at dinner to somebody's house, but you never said that to me in private. So now I know what you REALLY think.

If the melody was great, it would be obvious and no need to make a suggestion.

I dont think you give enough credit to people who post songs. If somebody goes into your thread and says "Might I suggest, you change this line, or Do you think it could be better if this melody changed here, or I THINK you could use a bridge. Do you think that changes anything? If the song was great, or even good, you wouldn't say anything about it, because you dont write say "Tom Waites" and say he Tom, I thought your lyric was weak in this song, because he's Tom Waites, and hes a master. But when you say it to me, or someone else, instantly, they know, that you dont think its very good. THATS where the boo boos add up.

SO when you offer a very friendly critique, the person knows you dont think its great, and thats hurtful enough, if you got thin skin.

The truth is, and science backs it up, flattery makes you a nice guy, criticism will make you a villian, no matter if people admit to it or not.

[/quote]



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/01/19 10:35 AM.
#1152337 - 04/01/19 10:44 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: maccharles]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by maccharles
My crits are always based on the old addage "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"....and I follow that line.

On the receiving side, "thin skin? Don't come in"

Confidence is key, one should always have a decent idea of one's abilities.......if not, one has to deal with the cuts being deeper.

I find the worst crits come from those with the least to offer, the people with almost zero catalog and a santa bag of suggs.

But three cents is usually ignored.


There are some folks, and I recall them on another site, they could write books on songwriting, but didnt have much talent.

There are pitching coaches who coach pitchers but they themselves werent good enough to play.

And we take guitar lessons from guitar teachers, should we not listen to them if they never had a hit record? Or never played in a famous band? We're there to learn how to play guitar.

I dont think anyone has any complaints about you Mac, either way.

#1152338 - 04/01/19 10:50 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Deej56
Well, after posting for a short while a long defense of the quality of feedback we receive from our fellow JPF members and the merits of this website, I think discretion is the better part of valor . . . and I'll stay on the sidelines.

But there's part of what I did write that I will share, and it's this:

"I’d simply take this opportunity to salute and thank my fellow members of the JPF community. I remember when I posted my first song here, with great trepidation and reluctance. . . it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic . . . I tell you honestly, if I got the type of blunt, harsh reactions that perhaps I deserved, rather than the encouragement and kind, supportive feedback that I did receive, I might never had the courage to post again."

So thank you JPF for your tolerance and kind welcome and fellowship.

My best regards to all of you,

Deej


The merits of this site for me are, 1. sharing thoughts on music or other stuff, if it comes up. 2. Finding collaborators, I dont need them, but I see its value for finding people to write songs with, especially for lyricists. Some folks would not have any collabs if not for this site. 3. Networking

But this quote: "I’d simply take this opportunity to salute and thank my fellow members of the JPF community. I remember when I posted my first song here, with great trepidation and reluctance. . . it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic . . . I tell you honestly, if I got the type of blunt, harsh reactions that perhaps I deserved, rather than the encouragement and kind, supportive feedback that I did receive, I might never had the courage to post again."

Look what you wrote "it was pretty much crap—me on a guitar, single track recorded over my Mac laptop mic"

That doesnt make a song crap, but its perceieved as crap because people want to hear recordings. Recordings are not songs. And I think people have figured out, that the best way to make people think your songs are good and you;re good, is to have good recordings of the songs. Thats not true at all.

If the song was good all you would need is a vocal good enough to hit the melody and clear enough to be heard. But when people do that, they dont get the same responses as somebody whos putting up polished tracks, thats why they go through all the rings to get a recording.

The only people who get "picked on" are the people who have bad recordings or bad vocals. No matter how good or as equal their song may be, the will get dings from the posters, and others follow suit, because they believe its ok, since it sounds bad.

If you really want to see how good your songwriting is try stripped down recordings. But dont be surprised if its not praised like better recordings are, which is a different thing than songwriting. Home recording forums are better for that, and whats funny is, you wont see any of the people responding there saying a word about the song, they could care a less, they critique the recording.


Perhaps that has been your experience, but it isn't just here that people want polished presentations. If someone says "this is a basic vocal/guitar only demo to get the song, melody and lyrics down. What do you think? Most people won't STILL expect a finished song. However if you say "This is my new single, what do you think?" then people SHOULD expect a finished song, or should alert someone that it isn't ready for commercial release if it isn't. I think the responsibility rests with the person ASKING for help. Be clear on what you are presenting and what you are looking for? "Hey, this is a vocal/piano demo of a song I am working on. Do you think the lyrics work, especially in how the bridge ties the story together transitioning the "all is lost" moment into the solution and resolution at the end of the song. Etc. If you want a good critique, take the time to explain what you want from them. If you say "this is my song, feedback please" then any fault with the results is entirely on the poster, not the listener/critique giver. It's okay to say "I am a beginner and this is my first song. Am I on the right track?" Now you've given the listener CONTEXT that they can work with. Sadly most people expect brilliant and deep responses when they can't be bothered to offer need CONTEXT to what they are posting. I think most of the time it is either someone too new to know better, or laziness. I can happily help the first, but I owe nothing to the latter. Context also extends to who the person is. Do they help critique others? Are they brand new? Are they someone who posts over and over and not only doesn't critique anyone else, but also doesn't even reply or thank the people who DO spend the time to listen and offer their thoughts. New people should get a pass, but hopefully a polite lesson on how to be more effective in posting for feedback. But for people who should know better, without some staging and context offered by the poster, they have little right to complain or be unhappy with the results. Effort In usually equals Quality of Results on the other side in all things. It is perfectly fine to set the parameters of what you want and then the listener can decide if they want to spend their time offer what the poster is looking for. That's a fair exchange.


Yes I agree Kid Gloves are needed for some people, and every individual is unique. a good coach knows how to talk to all of his players the way its needed. Some Dads need to be tougher on one kid than another for various reasons.

All I mean about the recordings, is people just go and have Mike record their song, and they see it gets better feedback, and suddenly they are writing great songs.

If you stopped to realize ANYBODY can pay Mike to record their song, and in the end they are all about the same.

A great melody will always trump a decent melody and lyrics the same, people dont realize that they can learn to polish their melodys.

How many of us settle on the first thing that comes out, when Paul wrote yesterday he sure didnt stick with scrambled eggs.

Lyricists can re write lyrics of classic songs, and improve just by learning structure and singablity, hook placement, what form is better of certain types of songs.

melody writers can learn over time to fit the correct pegs into the correct holes.

Most of us are not born great writers, for most greatness takes work and alot of it, buying a recording doesnt change that

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/01/19 10:52 AM.
#1152339 - 04/01/19 11:15 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Kolstad
I think its like real life here. You have to prove you can small talk about nothing and everything, before you can get to the point where you belt your heart out. You build trust one small step at a time.

Critique means that you use criteria (standards) to evaluate something. And not knowing who people are, and what standards are true for a specific piece of music, you need more posts and more time to navigate.

Mostly people dont critique (use standards) at all, but just comment as music lovers, appreciating the effort and the work you put into it. Just laymans opinions, which frankly are closer to the people listening to and buying music (not that there are many left). Im not sure if it is actually worth it to have an allknowing dude/dudette pointing out every small hair that sits the wrong way, in their opinion. We are all crazy, and if you take the crazy out, music becomes really boring and meritless..

JPF is just a great way to small talk, share music efforts and converse with likeminded people who loves music. Im from an age before Internet, where there wasnt places like this around. As a shy kid it was hard to go out, and break the ice with other people without being intimidated by the fast talkers, not to mention getting to a point in a conversation actually talking about music..

Now go out in the forum world, be mindful, take it easy and make a positive difference, just because you can..


Music listeners like or dont like songs, or like them a little or hate them. No reason at all, they just either do or dont

Songwriters write the songs that are going to be listened to, we dont write a song and say "boy i cant think of one reason why anybody would like this song" They are trying to write something that will be liked by a listener, we have more tools to know it, like we should know a good hook, the listener just hears the hook, but we write it so they can hear it

Do you think the greats didnt work on their craft, that it all came naturally? The Beatles wrote Love Love me doo, and I wanna hold your hand, then they wrote Eleanor Rigby years after, why didnt they write Elanor rigby as their first song? Cause they werent good enough yet, they worked on their craft

#1152347 - 04/01/19 02:04 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Yes, it's a great analogy. Because the person felt you and he or you and she were "tight". But then you come in and make me look bad in front of other people. Now, I dont trust you, when we are talking in private, and you go on about my work, maybe you were full of crap, because you said something different to the public" Or, you said i look fat in this dress when over at dinner to somebody's house, but you never said that to me in private. So now I know what you REALLY think.


So if a friend says something negative about a piece, I am gonna feel betrayed? This makes sense, coming from a person who chooses to remain anonymous and a stranger himself, but it feels like there is some projection going on, on your part.

For those of us who have friends here, I don't think that's true at all. You see friendships as alliances, but c'mon, alliances are alliances. Certainly there are faux friendships in place that are basically alliances, but that's not what I am talking about, and any friendships that are just alliances are not true friendships. Friendships involve trust. Trust takes time to build. And when a friendship has it, it can be strong, and no isolated negative comment is gonna do anything other than allow for the possibility for it to move and change. It certainly will not remain static.

Like I said, "stranger" and "friend" are opposite poles of the spectrum--"total stranger" on the far left and "good friend" on the far right--and most relationships fall in between, here at JPF. And it feels good, in most relationships, to move right.

It seems you are suggesting that to get the best critiques here we should avoid making friends cuz then they can't be trusted as much? That's funny..

I value real friendship and the trust that it brings, and my friends know that I am easily hurt, but they also know that I want honesty. The hurt can be worked through. Sins of omission and that stasis that brings is more tragic and often can't be overcome. Sometimes friendships find a nice ground and there they sit and don't move, and that's fine too. Life does have a way of throwing curves at them, though. The resilient friendships survive. And that resilience can be directly linked to how much they trust each other.


Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I dont think you give enough credit to people who post songs.


I think I'm just saying there's more natural potential for trust between actual friends than non-friends. I put credence into every comment, no matter who it's from, but rely more on consensus and other factors the more towards the "total stranger" end-of-the spectrum the relationship is. Those relationships toward the friend end of the spectrum are more naturally taken in and trusted. Maybe not for you, but you don't get to tell me what my personal experience is, or that I live in a fantasy world because I value trust and find more of it with friends than non-friends, that's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
If you stopped to realize ANYBODY can pay Mike to record their song, and in the end they are all about the same.


Well Daniel Lanois' productions do too, cuz they all have his stamp, and there's certain things he will do on just about every recording. I have been told by many folks, both friends and strangers, that I have quite a variety of styles that I can fit comfortably into. And really I need no validation to do anything but dismiss this comment of yours.

I am still growing as a producer and none of my clients are stuck either. There's growth in our work. It gets better. We learn from mistakes. You are being very presumptuous to tell me what my relationships with my clients are like, but I just find it rather amusing.

You are a stranger. How's that working out for you?

Actually you aren't a stranger. But when the only things we know about you are 1) he's a guy with an opinion about most everything and that 2)he came back to JPF after being kicked out over a dozen times..that knowledge taints your comments. You want to go on as if nothing happened, when something did. You choose to continue to wear a mask. You choose to not attempt to amend your slanted narrative. I hope that works out for you, but makes it hard for me and I imagine many others, to take anything you say with anything but a grain of salt, no matter how much truth might be in any isolated comment from you.

Mike



Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/01/19 05:48 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152348 - 04/01/19 04:47 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
I think one mistake we are both making, FD, is speaking on behalf of everybody.

That's where the conflict comes from.

I will refrain from that from this moment on and just speak for myself, and seeing I have spoken at length, you know how I personally feel and have little else left to say.

You can continue to generalize about how everyone feels about "friends vs strangers in regards critiquing," if you want, but really these thoughts are just how you feel personally about the subject, whether you care to admit that or not, not really about how everyone feels about "strangers vs friends in regards critiquing" at all.

I imagine there's quite of variety of feelings on the subject, based on one's life experience. Your life experience leads you to your beliefs, I mine.

Let's both stop being presumptuous, okay? All I really know is my experience and I have conveyed that at length to you.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/01/19 05:20 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152349 - 04/01/19 06:39 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,530
couchgrouch Online content
Top 30 Poster
couchgrouch  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,530
cochise, az, usa
FD, what you said about demos isn't true. Plenty of awful songwriters pay hundreds to have places like County Q demo their tunes in Nashville but pubs instantly know the difference in a good or bad song. It's a shame worktapes can't be pitched, but it's no skin off my rhymes. That's the biz now.

And you could pay Mike to demo your sports song and it would sound good while remaining an utter piece of mediocre crap. Part of me was shocked that after all your pontificating about music, you posted that thing. Wow, is it bad.

Another part of me wasn't shocked. I've encountered quite a few know-it-alls in my twenty years on these sites. Not a single one of them could write. You're just the latest in a really long line.

Mike does exactly what a pro producer does, make his clients' songs better. How good they end up being often depends on how good they were to begin with. But that's the same with every producer back to the guy who recorded Charlie Patton in a railroad shack.

Get off the internet. Learn to write and then SHOW us by example what your wisdom is worth. After that sports song, you're Rachel Maddow...ZERO credibility.

#1152354 - 04/01/19 11:58 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
Deej56 Offline
Top 500 Poster
Deej56  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
Hi, all:

I started this thread . . . though I wish I could finish it by just shutting it down, quite honestly. We are debating things that are fun to debate about over a few drinks, but it never turns out well on social forums such as this. (And, to be honest, rarely turns out well over a couple of drinks!). On the whole, I’m surprised, because the discourse above has been, for the most part, engaging and balanced. It would be nice to believe we can have these types of discussions without falling to the bottom denominator, but alas . . . sadly it goes there too often.

I have a few thoughts to share . . . and then it’s time to move on:

Martin and Mike Z: Plus 1 on pretty much everything you have both written above. As I know you appreciate, it’s not as much about the confidence of the artist to hear the “bad news,” but how it’s delivered, and on a forum such as this, it’s less “the patient’s going to die” and more “there’s always hope”. Again, I’ll go back to my very first post on JPF two plus years ago—it’s still, in my biased opinion, among the better songs I’ve written, and it’s my go to song to sing when someone asks to hear an original—but it was such a crap recording, in light of what I know now.

But I tell you true, if I had not received the “good” with the “bad” type feedback . . . and, again, thank you all for being both supportive and constructive . . . I can tell you without doubt it would have been the last you saw of me on this board . . . or frankly, anywhere in a public way. Does that mean I had thin skin . . . that I lacked confidence . . . that I had no business putting myself out there if I couldn’t stand up to the criticism? Yes, on all accounts . . . but it doesn’t change the fact that I would never have posted publicly again (for better or worse, depending on your point of view).

And it’s not that I’m any great shakes . . . but I can’t help writing my own melodies and songs. I pick up my guitar and get bored playing someone else’s tunes . . . So I create. And like all of us on this board, I post to share my voice . . . for good or for bad, better or worse.

Strange vs. Friend: I’ll confess the conversation, while interesting, doesn’t do much for me . . . Whether a “stranger” or a “friend,” the feedback is either sincere or not. As an artist, you take it for what it is, taking into account the connection, and addressing the feedback as you see fit. A “stranger” can give great feedback, and a “friend” can give critical, and maybe not helpful, overly kind feedback—I’ve gotten both.

But MIke Z., I think what you are saying is that with friendship comes acceptability. Or perhaps better said, with familiarity comes believability—I agree. So we ultimately respect the opinion of those we know more, or those who have demonstrated to our own satisfaction that they know more.

Kolstad: Plus one on your post as well. As one of those shy kids . . . and still a shy adult . . . maybe I’m over-sensitive to the power of words and that empty feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when you are summarily dismissed as not being up to snuff. But I love this: “ . . . be mindful, take it easy, and make a positive difference, just because you can.” I fail often in adhering to that directive, but I keep trying . . . smile

Brian: You make a terrific point about posters needing to be more specific about the feedback they are looking for. Too often I assume when someone posts they want feedback on the song generally, but that’s clearly not the case. Some are just posting to share their song . . . and that’s fine. Though, given this is a community, it would be nice if those folks would at least spend a little time listening and commenting on other posts, rather than doing a drop and run . . . but that’s an axe to grind on another day.

Fdemetrio: Over a couple of beers, or more exactly for me, a few glasses of wine, I think we’d have a great conversation about all things music. We haven’t had much interaction directly on this board, but what little I can discern of you . . . we have similar tastes in music. That may surprise you given what I’ve posted on MP3 to date, but nonetheless we do. Bruce, Petty, Melloncamp, Croce, R.E.M., Green Day, Weezer, Counting Crows . . . hell, the list goes on. The fact is, I’m not married to any type of music (with the exception of jazz . . . hate it . . . and rap, which beyond the occasional tune of interest, doesn’t do much for me).

I disagree with some of what you’ve said above, but not all of it. Some of what you say has merit: the value of an objective opinion, which I think you equate with the view of a “stranger,” and the fact that a well-produced demo doesn’t make a song a better song, in its heart and bones.

But, to be honest, I started this thread, which I deleted, and which has now obviously taken on a life of its own, because of occasional comments you have consistently made . . . so let’s see if I can bring this whole thing full circle in the closing thoughts that follow . . .

Closing Thoughts: I started this thread because I object to characterizations that the feedback provided on this board is without substance and is intended simply to pat each other on the back in a quid pro quo manner, so that others will “like” us and provide similarly insincere feedback on our own songs.

That’s, well . . . crap, IMHO, and in my experience. It’s dismissive of everyone on the board, posters and commenters alike. But more importantly, I think it misses the very point of a board like this: We are here to share our voices . . . maybe improve, maybe learn . . . but ultimately to share our creative selves. Our audience is not professional musicians, not publishers, not established artists . . . but rather “just plain folks” , who can’t help but pick up an instrument and write a song.

So can’t we as a community take better, more thoughtful care in how we respond to each other’s work, while still helping each other, maybe, to improve? I think we can . . . and in general I think we do. And I take exception to those who don’t, who believe we can't, or who are ultimately unwilling to embrace it.

So, while I should probably stop there . . . I can’t, because it would be contrary to all I wrote above were I not to speak to it:

Couch: You are a very talented writer . . . and part of me gets where you are coming from. And I appreciate that we’ll disagree about Fdemetrio’s “sport song”. But it’s exactly the type of feedback that concerns me. YOU might hate it, I get that—it certainly is not comparable to the fine verse you write. BUT, there are some good things going on in that song—and I went back and listened to it again to be certain of that, from my subjective perspective. There are aspects reminiscent of styles you might hear from Taylor Swift, or Everclear, or Blink 182—all of which you may dislike equally. Sure, there's some work to be done . . . but a "bad song"? For me, dunno . . . as a whole in its current form, maybe . . . but there are aspects of the tune I really like, and with some work it could turn a corner. Is the tune totally without merit for you? And even so, do you think your perspective dictates that it is totally without merit for anyone else?

Listen, there’s a lot I hear on this board that I don’t like or care for . . . that doesn’t mean there’s not some aspect of the song worth acknowledging or admiring. The whole point of this thread (initially) was (I think) to make two points: (1) our constructive criticism is not watered down by being supportive; and (2) what we all think we know about music—about what makes a song good or bad—doesn’t mean squat as long as there is one person to write and sing the song, and one person who loves hearing it.

I’m tapping out from this thread . . . play on, all of us . . . and play nice. We all just want to be heard.

Regards,

Deej

_______________

Last edited by Deej56; 04/02/19 12:12 AM.
#1152355 - 04/02/19 12:23 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,530
couchgrouch Online content
Top 30 Poster
couchgrouch  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,530
cochise, az, usa
DJ, I stand by what I said about that song. And I said it, not because I care what he thinks about critiques, but because, in lumping all of Mike's demos together, he's subtly trying to play Mike's clients against one another, and against Mike. That's a bit much.

People have been complaining about the quality of critiques for decades. It means nothing. And no, I don't think my view of that song is a fact. But for a guy who's been booted off this site and keeps reappearing and blathering about music to post something that lame, someone had to point it out. Furthermore, it could be argued that the kind of critiques he received on that song were exactly the kind he complains about.

A guy with that many opinions on what everyone else is doing should have a key quality that song lacked...vision.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 04/02/19 12:34 AM.
#1152357 - 04/02/19 01:11 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
Deej56 Offline
Top 500 Poster
Deej56  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,023
Couch,

I understand where you're coming from. And I don't mean to discredit your opinion of the song or your motivations for expressing it . . . you're entitled to both it and the right to express it--and by all means you should stand by it; I'm not looking to change your mind. And I truly appreciate there's a lot more context here that's in play regarding past history, and other not so fair or, in my view, accurate remarks on the value of contributions made by fellow posters. It's a history that goes back, it seems, much further than my time here.

But, notwithstanding the merit of those other considerations, if you at all appreciate where I am coming from with my view above--that we can be both supportive, respectful and substantive in our comments, notwithstanding our personal preferences (and, again, I believe we generally are). . . then perhaps you can also appreciate why I felt the need on this thread to specifically address your comment above on the song in question. I would have felt hypocritical not doing so . . . which is not to say that I don't agree with you about other aspects of your post.

And just so I'm clear on that last point . . . I respect the hell out of Mike Z. and his immense talent. He's been a supportive and measurable influence on me in my short time here, for which I'm immensely grateful. Plus 1 on that point as well.

My best to you, Robert,

Deej

#1152359 - 04/02/19 01:38 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
Originally Posted by Deej56


Strange vs. Friend: I’ll confess the conversation, while interesting, doesn’t do much for me . . . Whether a “stranger” or a “friend,” the feedback is either sincere or not. As an artist, you take it for what it is, taking into account the connection, and addressing the feedback as you see fit. A “stranger” can give great feedback, and a “friend” can give critical, and maybe not helpful, overly kind feedback—I’ve gotten both.

But MIke Z., I think what you are saying is that with friendship comes acceptability. Or perhaps better said, with familiarity comes believability—I agree. So we ultimately respect the opinion of those we know more, or those who have demonstrated to our own satisfaction that they know more.



Deej,

You got it. You condensed my thoughts rather succinctly. With familiarity comes believably for sure. A stranger with harsh words will neither offend, upset, nor enlighten me as "the trust factor" is low. It matters less that a stranger might have less investment and thus be more objective, and more about the screening process of the receiver.

I realize as well that I may have more trust issues than most, which is why I realized in my last post that networking can work in different ways for different people, based on our own personal psychological make-ups and that I'd be better off refraining from any form of generalizing on the subject, but just talk about what works for me.

Thank you for your very eloquent summing up. I appreciate that you are here, very much.

Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152361 - 04/02/19 02:58 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 225
Cheyenne Offline
Serious Contributor
Cheyenne  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 225
Florida U.S.A.
I was working for a publisher many moons ago and we used to get some
pretty poor stuff to listen to in DEMO form

Why poor ? you may ask , Badly sung , Long boring intros Poor prosody
re runs of well known hits

One guy sent in a list of thirty songs and said I am sure you will find something
here, NO Way ! That would be thrown in the bin without a listen in general ,
but listening to the first song on his list would confirm the rest would be pretty awful

This is not only typical of wannabe writers , In every profession especially those
involving sport and entertainment, 98 percent of those applying are completely unsuitable
Its a fact of Human Nature

These comments are not intended to be me acting like a Know It All , just pure facts of life

Sadly badly sung demos are a complete turn off , and if the sender does not realise that
how are they going to improve ??

If you are posting here surely , you are looking for feed back , it does not mean a badly
written song , comes from a fool or a low life , but we can only judge by our personal
experiences of the profession , Sending a song off to a Publisher , does not even
guarantee the song will be listened to, there are not enough hours in the days and
most Publishers only accept songs from established writers.


Last edited by Cheyenne; 04/02/19 03:19 AM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1152370 - 04/02/19 10:20 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
FD, what you said about demos isn't true. Plenty of awful songwriters pay hundreds to have places like County Q demo their tunes in Nashville but pubs instantly know the difference in a good or bad song. It's a shame worktapes can't be pitched, but it's no skin off my rhymes. That's the biz now.

And you could pay Mike to demo your sports song and it would sound good while remaining an utter piece of mediocre crap. Part of me was shocked that after all your pontificating about music, you posted that thing. Wow, is it bad.

Another part of me wasn't shocked. I've encountered quite a few know-it-alls in my twenty years on these sites. Not a single one of them could write. You're just the latest in a really long line.

Mike does exactly what a pro producer does, make his clients' songs better. How good they end up being often depends on how good they were to begin with. But that's the same with every producer back to the guy who recorded Charlie Patton in a railroad shack.

Get off the internet. Learn to write and then SHOW us by example what your wisdom is worth. After that sports song, you're Rachel Maddow...ZERO credibility.

Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Yes, it's a great analogy. Because the person felt you and he or you and she were "tight". But then you come in and make me look bad in front of other people. Now, I dont trust you, when we are talking in private, and you go on about my work, maybe you were full of crap, because you said something different to the public" Or, you said i look fat in this dress when over at dinner to somebody's house, but you never said that to me in private. So now I know what you REALLY think.


So if a friend says something negative about a piece, I am gonna feel betrayed? This makes sense, coming from a person who chooses to remain anonymous and a stranger himself, but it feels like there is some projection going on, on your part.

For those of us who have friends here, I don't think that's true at all. You see friendships as alliances, but c'mon, alliances are alliances. Certainly there are faux friendships in place that are basically alliances, but that's not what I am talking about, and any friendships that are just alliances are not true friendships. Friendships involve trust. Trust takes time to build. And when a friendship has it, it can be strong, and no isolated negative comment is gonna do anything other than allow for the possibility for it to move and change. It certainly will not remain static.

Like I said, "stranger" and "friend" are opposite poles of the spectrum--"total stranger" on the far left and "good friend" on the far right--and most relationships fall in between, here at JPF. And it feels good, in most relationships, to move right.

It seems you are suggesting that to get the best critiques here we should avoid making friends cuz then they can't be trusted as much? That's funny..

I value real friendship and the trust that it brings, and my friends know that I am easily hurt, but they also know that I want honesty. The hurt can be worked through. Sins of omission and that stasis that brings is more tragic and often can't be overcome. Sometimes friendships find a nice ground and there they sit and don't move, and that's fine too. Life does have a way of throwing curves at them, though. The resilient friendships survive. And that resilience can be directly linked to how much they trust each other.


Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I dont think you give enough credit to people who post songs.


I think I'm just saying there's more natural potential for trust between actual friends than non-friends. I put credence into every comment, no matter who it's from, but rely more on consensus and other factors the more towards the "total stranger" end-of-the spectrum the relationship is. Those relationships toward the friend end of the spectrum are more naturally taken in and trusted. Maybe not for you, but you don't get to tell me what my personal experience is, or that I live in a fantasy world because I value trust and find more of it with friends than non-friends, that's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
If you stopped to realize ANYBODY can pay Mike to record their song, and in the end they are all about the same.


Well Daniel Lanois' productions do too, cuz they all have his stamp, and there's certain things he will do on just about every recording. I have been told by many folks, both friends and strangers, that I have quite a variety of styles that I can fit comfortably into. And really I need no validation to do anything but dismiss this comment of yours.

I am still growing as a producer and none of my clients are stuck either. There's growth in our work. It gets better. We learn from mistakes. You are being very presumptuous to tell me what my relationships with my clients are like, but I just find it rather amusing.

You are a stranger. How's that working out for you?

Actually you aren't a stranger. But when the only things we know about you are 1) he's a guy with an opinion about most everything and that 2)he came back to JPF after being kicked out over a dozen times..that knowledge taints your comments. You want to go on as if nothing happened, when something did. You choose to continue to wear a mask. You choose to not attempt to amend your slanted narrative. I hope that works out for you, but makes it hard for me and I imagine many others, to take anything you say with anything but a grain of salt, no matter how much truth might be in any isolated comment from you.

Mike



Originally Posted by couchgrouch
FD, what you said about demos isn't true. Plenty of awful songwriters pay hundreds to have places like County Q demo their tunes in Nashville but pubs instantly know the difference in a good or bad song. It's a shame worktapes can't be pitched, but it's no skin off my rhymes. That's the biz now.

And you could pay Mike to demo your sports song and it would sound good while remaining an utter piece of mediocre crap. Part of me was shocked that after all your pontificating about music, you posted that thing. Wow, is it bad.

Another part of me wasn't shocked. I've encountered quite a few know-it-alls in my twenty years on these sites. Not a single one of them could write. You're just the latest in a really long line.

Mike does exactly what a pro producer does, make his clients' songs better. How good they end up being often depends on how good they were to begin with. But that's the same with every producer back to the guy who recorded Charlie Patton in a railroad shack.

Get off the internet. Learn to write and then SHOW us by example what your wisdom is worth. After that sports song, you're Rachel Maddow...ZERO credibility.


You dont think anything
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
I think one mistake we are both making, FD, is speaking on behalf of everybody.

That's where the conflict comes from.

I will refrain from that from this moment on and just speak for myself, and seeing I have spoken at length, you know how I personally feel and have little else left to say.

You can continue to generalize about how everyone feels about "friends vs strangers in regards critiquing," if you want, but really these thoughts are just how you feel personally about the subject, whether you care to admit that or not, not really about how everyone feels about "strangers vs friends in regards critiquing" at all.

I imagine there's quite of variety of feelings on the subject, based on one's life experience. Your life experience leads you to your beliefs, I mine.

Let's both stop being presumptuous, okay? All I really know is my experience and I have conveyed that at length to you.

Mike


Mike, if you told somebody what you REALLY thought of their stuff, you would have no business. I understand you work with what you got, and try to maximize its potential, nothing wrong with that, but there's still dishonesty going on. It doesnt mean your opinion is gold, it just exposes the dishonesty.

Even if its not about business, you wont critique somebody negatively, because you know these people, and you dont want to hurt them. Also understandable. If my niece asks me how her singing was, i would never say anything negative, i may say you should try this or that. But since I love her, and want her to be happy and keep dreaming, I dont do that. If she was somebody on a forum asking for honest opinions, id tend to say it more directly, so it can be thought about and worked on. When people are coming here, they are getting this unconditional love, because they know nobody is going to challenge them.

#1152371 - 04/02/19 10:29 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: couchgrouch]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
FD, what you said about demos isn't true. Plenty of awful songwriters pay hundreds to have places like County Q demo their tunes in Nashville but pubs instantly know the difference in a good or bad song. It's a shame worktapes can't be pitched, but it's no skin off my rhymes. That's the biz now.

And you could pay Mike to demo your sports song and it would sound good while remaining an utter piece of mediocre crap. Part of me was shocked that after all your pontificating about music, you posted that thing. Wow, is it bad.

Another part of me wasn't shocked. I've encountered quite a few know-it-alls in my twenty years on these sites. Not a single one of them could write. You're just the latest in a really long line.

Mike does exactly what a pro producer does, make his clients' songs better. How good they end up being often depends on how good they were to begin with. But that's the same with every producer back to the guy who recorded Charlie Patton in a railroad shack.

Get off the internet. Learn to write and then SHOW us by example what your wisdom is worth. After that sports song, you're Rachel Maddow...ZERO credibility.


Look at this, the guy gets offended, even by not being mentioned. Shut the hell up about you being the king of lyric writing, ok? You write frikon words on a paper, and you insult me, you hang in the shadows without saying a word, which is extremely helpful. You tell a guy his lay a smile on me is good, just so you could ensure feedback on your next tune.

Furthermore, you have been saying for years that youre done writing, you keep coming back. Cause nobody gives a damn about your lyrics except here, so where the hell else would you go, and nowadays they dont even give a damn because all they care about is the recording.

I sing better than you, i write better melodies than you, I play guitar better than you, I play piano better than you, I play drums better than you, I write music better than you all you do is write long winded stories to try to force somebody to make songs out of them. You are coming off as an authority now.

Get off the internet and show us a song you wrote, recorded and performed yourself, then come and insult me you jackass. On top of it, you dont even think a good song has been written in 30 years, except YOURS.

This is a classic example of NOT saying whats on your mind. If he thinks my songs suck, that means he must think everybody here sucks except himself. But he doesnt say anything, he comes to be praised. And hiding what you REALLY think, all that does is help YOU right? Cause if you did go into everybodys lyric and express it youd have zero replies.

You're true feelings have been observed, everybody knows you think everybody sucks now.

But there's a reason why the only place you can go with your music is this site, you're not good enough to make it.

P. S. your latest COUNTRY song sucks, plain and simple. Lets be clear, the only reason he opined in this thread was because he feels his songs with Mike, are far better than other peoples songs with Mike. That's the ONLY reason he lashed out.




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/02/19 12:55 PM.
#1152374 - 04/02/19 11:34 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


Mike, if you told somebody what you REALLY thought of their stuff, you would have no business. I understand you work with what you got, and try to maximize its potential, nothing wrong with that, but there's still dishonesty going on. It doesnt mean your opinion is gold, it just exposes the dishonesty.

Even if its not about business, you wont critique somebody negatively, because you know these people, and you dont want to hurt them. Also understandable. If my niece asks me how her singing was, i would never say anything negative, i may say you should try this or that. But since I love her, and want her to be happy and keep dreaming, I dont do that. If she was somebody on a forum asking for honest opinions, id tend to say it more directly, so it can be thought about and worked on. When people are coming here, they are getting this unconditional love, because they know nobody is going to challenge them.


FD, there you go again telling me what I think and how I relate to my clients. And what I do and how I do it and all because "I don't want to hurt them." You are completely wrong. With clients, this stuff takes place BEHIND THE SCENES, most of the time. and with some clients, more than others, based on the condition of the lyric or song.

You seem to have a problem with the idea that life experience gives different people different psychologies and different ways of moving through life.

When I work on a song for a client, I tend to fall in love with that song, flaws and all, so that when I do champion it, on the boards, I am being sincere, because whatever problems a more objective listener may have, I have been swayed by the material. WE HAVE WORKED OUT THE PROBLEMS to get to this point.

It's good for a producer to love the material he works with, and I am fortunate to be working with many talented clients. There is NO DECEPTION involved in this process. It has ZERO to do with the fact that there is overlap between friends and clients. Absolutely no conflict of interest. In fact, I feel it is more my DUTY to be honest, when a client is a friend, because that's who I am. I tell my friends what I think. It is called being a mature human being, and trusting that if the friendship is strong enough, it will not break with a little honesty.

The more you continue to tell me what my life experience is, the sillier you sound.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/02/19 11:47 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152375 - 04/02/19 11:38 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
Seems to me that this thread has devolved into proving up the very specific point that DJ originally made about critiques. And his point has been punctuated with an exchange of nasty personal insults between FD and Robert.

it has become a case in point for what was being debated.

That's kind of cool in a way. DJ has been proven right. DJ wins. DJ for president. wink

#1152376 - 04/02/19 11:40 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


Mike, if you told somebody what you REALLY thought of their stuff, you would have no business. I understand you work with what you got, and try to maximize its potential, nothing wrong with that, but there's still dishonesty going on. It doesnt mean your opinion is gold, it just exposes the dishonesty.

Even if its not about business, you wont critique somebody negatively, because you know these people, and you dont want to hurt them. Also understandable. If my niece asks me how her singing was, i would never say anything negative, i may say you should try this or that. But since I love her, and want her to be happy and keep dreaming, I dont do that. If she was somebody on a forum asking for honest opinions, id tend to say it more directly, so it can be thought about and worked on. When people are coming here, they are getting this unconditional love, because they know nobody is going to challenge them.


FD, there you go again telling me what I think and how I relate to my clients. And what I do and how I do it because I don't want to hurt them, You are completely wrong. With clients, this stuff takes place BEHIND THE SCENES, most of the time. and with some clients, more than others, based on the condition of the lyric or song.

You seem to have a problem with the idea that life experience gives people different psychologies and you just won't accept that. I work better with clients that I am more friendly with. Partially because it is easier to open up and be honest. I stopped critiquing publicly out of sheer time-crunch-problems.

When I work on a song for a client, I tend to fall in love with that song, flaws and all, so that when I do champion it, on the boards, I am being sincere, because whatever problems a more objective listener may have, I have been swayed by the material. It's good for a producer to love the material he works with, and I am fortunate to be working with many talented clients. There is NO DECEPTION involved in this process. It has ZERO to do with the fact that there is overlap between friends and clients. Absolutely no conflict of interest. In fact, I feel it is more my DUTY to be honest, when I am both client and friend, because that's who I am. I tell my friends what I think. It os called being a mature human being, and trusting that if the friendship is strong enough, it will not break with a little honesty.

There more you continue to tell me what my life experience is, the sillier you sound.

Mike


Life experience is not all unique. Songwriters write from what they think the situation is. Maybe they are wrong maybe they are right. But its not impossible to imagine something through somebody elses shoes. And these are common emotions, all we need do is give it a try. Post songs without anyone knowing who posted, or who commented. Emotions may still play a role. Better yet, put them on youtube, people there have no problem saying what they think, that is, if we can get enough people to view it, and not views from people we know.

#1152378 - 04/02/19 11:44 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Martin Lide]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Seems to me that this thread has devolved into proving up the very specific point that DJ originally made about critiques. And complete with an exchange of personal insults.

it has become a case in point for what was being debated.

That's kind of cool in a way. DJ has been proven right. DJ wins. DJ for president. wink


Yes he was correct, because people perceive negative critiques as insults, thats why. Which kind of proves me right too.

#1152379 - 04/02/19 11:46 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Seems to me that this thread has devolved into proving up the very specific point that DJ originally made about critiques. And complete with an exchange of personal insults.

it has become a case in point for what was being debated.

That's kind of cool in a way. DJ has been proven right. DJ wins. DJ for president. wink


Yes he was correct, because people perceive negative critiques as insults, thats why. Which kind of proves me right too.



Okay. Would you kind of like to be his vice president? wink

#1152380 - 04/02/19 11:47 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Martin Lide]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Seems to me that this thread has devolved into proving up the very specific point that DJ originally made about critiques. And complete with an exchange of personal insults.

it has become a case in point for what was being debated.

That's kind of cool in a way. DJ has been proven right. DJ wins. DJ for president. wink


Yes he was correct, because people perceive negative critiques as insults, thats why. Which kind of proves me right too.



Okay. Would you like to be his vice president? wink


Ok

#1152382 - 04/02/19 11:52 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,879
California
Instead of telling me who I am, FD, all you are doing, through the lines, is telling me who you are.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/02/19 12:15 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1152383 - 04/02/19 11:53 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Instead of telling me who I am, FD, all you are doing is, through the lines, is telling me who you are.


Familiar with the term Spin Mike?

#1152388 - 04/02/19 01:06 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,065
lane1777 Offline
Top 500 Poster
lane1777  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,065
south of the mason,dixon line
FD YOU posted;

Mike, if you told somebody what you REALLY thought of their stuff, you would have no business. I understand you work with what you got, and try to maximize its potential, nothing wrong with that, but there's still dishonesty going on. It doesnt mean your opinion is gold, it just exposes the dishonesty.

Thats just not true FD ..and it shows how much you don`t know. Mike Z has always been honest with me and
what I`m doing. even as far as to tell me thats not going to work. But you don`t know me or what I have asked of Mike.
I have never been insulted here, of course I ask for critiques.
I don`t think your giving enough credit to the people on this board, "friend or foe and the differences they are here for.
I really think that statement is very unfair to many. Peace Lane


"Grace always pours from a closing wound"
#1152389 - 04/02/19 01:48 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: lane1777]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by lane1777
FD YOU posted;

Mike, if you told somebody what you REALLY thought of their stuff, you would have no business. I understand you work with what you got, and try to maximize its potential, nothing wrong with that, but there's still dishonesty going on. It doesnt mean your opinion is gold, it just exposes the dishonesty.

Thats just not true FD ..and it shows how much you don`t know. Mike Z has always been honest with me and
what I`m doing. even as far as to tell me thats not going to work. But you don`t know me or what I have asked of Mike.
I have never been insulted here, of course I ask for critiques.
I don`t think your giving enough credit to the people on this board, "friend or foe and the differences they are here for.
I really think that statement is very unfair to many. Peace Lane



The fact you are defending Mike, shows you number 1. Like Mike, 2. have dealt with Mike in the past, thereby famiilarity breeding contempt. 3. You dont think my opinion is worth the same is Mike, which you are entitled to think that.

Look, i dont give a flyin F at this point. Im talking to the wall, I cant beat the army, I cant join the army. Im off to the casino. Have fun!

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/02/19 01:57 PM.
#1152390 - 04/02/19 01:57 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,799
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,799
Denmark
You guys keep using the term critique wrong. A critique cant be honest or dishonest, a critique is a professional use of standards to judge the merit of a work. If one is just using personal taste to judge the work, it simply cannot be a critique. If personal taste is used it is just a personal comment, which of course can be anything.

Very few people, even among professionals, master the art of critique, and you will certainly not get that in any online forum in the world. You cant be sure to get it even when you pay for it, because it takes years and years of honing. Your best bet is great teachers.

So dizzing forum participants in a free online forum like this because they dont master the art of critique, is not right. Its just not fair to have expectations of this scale here, because you will have a hard time anywhere, finding people who can do this. (yeah, I know, lots of people claim they can, and even charge for it - but sorry, they just cant).

People who expect everything from nothing online is a sure route to get in trouble, and easy targets for scammers. Come back to earth, enjoy the free exchange of comments, and solicit them yourself. Like Brian writes, context is everything. One in a while, you get a magic moment of serendipity.. doesnt matter if it is from your own reflection of a comment, or if it is from a comment itself.


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/buzztracks
#1152391 - 04/02/19 02:09 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,504
Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Kolstad
You guys keep using the term critique wrong. A critique cant be honest or dishonest, a critique is a professional use of standards to judge the merit of a work. If one is just using personal taste to judge the work, it simply cannot be a critique. If personal taste is used it is just a personal comment, which of course can be anything.

Very few people, even among professionals, master the art of critique, and you will certainly not get that in any online forum in the world. You cant be sure to get it even when you pay for it, because it takes years and years of honing. Your best bet is great teachers.

So dizzing forum participants in a free online forum like this because they dont master the art of critique, is not right. Its just not fair to have expectations of this scale here, because you will have a hard time anywhere, finding people who can do this. (yeah, I know, lots of people claim they can, and even charge for it - but sorry, they just cant).

People who expect everything from nothing online is a sure route to get in trouble, and easy targets for scammers. Come back to earth, enjoy the free exchange of comments, and solicit them yourself. Like Brian writes, context is everything. One in a while, you get a magic moment of serendipity.. doesnt matter if it is from your own reflection of a comment, or if it is from a comment itself.


Understood. But like a lot of things, the word gets co-opted. There are very few professionals here. I am not one.
But "critique" works well enough to convey "personal opinion" in an amateur context.
Us wannabees like using yall's big-boy words. wink

Martin

#1152481 - 04/05/19 04:43 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,302
Dave Rice Offline
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,302
Texas
Late for the "difference of opinion" fest... as usual. LOL! Deej, I get your drift... and that of just about all the rest of you. Encouragement is a good thing and I suspect each of us needs it more than we would like to admit. A serious, no-holds-barred critique is something we all really need but most of us would dread to ask for one.

I was fortunate enough to find a publisher who would take the time to let me know just how miserable my song submissions sounded. It made me angry, upset, bewildered and confused. Now that many moons have passed and my judgement has improved, I've known that most of us will never "have out ticket punched" to the big waltz. Its nice to be able to listen to the work of others... and some of it is surprisingly good. The "surprises" don't seem to be coming around as often as they did a few years ago... but change is inevitable.

My parting shot to everyone... when it stops being enjoyable... find other pursuits. Until that time, keep it up and always remember... it only takes "One!"

My best to all of you. ----Dave

#1152487 - 04/06/19 09:28 AM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Late for the "difference of opinion" fest... as usual. LOL! Deej, I get your drift... and that of just about all the rest of you. Encouragement is a good thing and I suspect each of us needs it more than we would like to admit. A serious, no-holds-barred critique is something we all really need but most of us would dread to ask for one.

I was fortunate enough to find a publisher who would take the time to let me know just how miserable my song submissions sounded. It made me angry, upset, bewildered and confused. Now that many moons have passed and my judgement has improved, I've known that most of us will never "have out ticket punched" to the big waltz. Its nice to be able to listen to the work of others... and some of it is surprisingly good. The "surprises" don't seem to be coming around as often as they did a few years ago... but change is inevitable.

My parting shot to everyone... when it stops being enjoyable... find other pursuits. Until that time, keep it up and always remember... it only takes "One!"

My best to all of you. ----Dave


Back when I actually used to pitch, I used to pitch to small record companies and not publishers, cause I wanted to sing and perform my own stuff. Id go through songwriters market. I had read somewhere that one thing you could do was include an index card for them to give a reason why they rejected it. I many times got hurtful remarks.

"im sorry we dont accept amateurs work, and I think you fit the bill" "who the hell do you think you are, we already have a Springsteen" "You cant seem to make up your mind whether your rock, pop or folk" And Im not going to invent a category for you"

on the nicer side "Vocals good, Song good, backing band good, but what we need is great in order to compete"

I had a few who really liked it, and was offered a single song contract a couple of times, the startup companies were so small, they couldnt even afford quality letter head, I went to a lawyer with my dad, and the lawyer said as much, this guy is flipping a coin...

I later realized that there are so many types of good, and we all tend to make our version of good as Gospel. I mean the Ramones Teenage Lobotomy, is not supposed to be anything more than what it is, but it works for the people its intended for. And somebody still had to write it. If I was trying for a deeper song I would have done it. Not to mention many people in rock, some of its biggest stars consider the ramones one of the greatest rock bands to ever exist, and they played three chords... and never wrote a novel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ssoBUb2cJk
Certain things can be done right and done wrong, but within the context of that type of stuff.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/06/19 09:38 AM.
#1152557 - 04/09/19 09:26 PM Re: A Critique of JPF Feedback--Deleted [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 325
RonnieDean Offline
Top 500 Poster
RonnieDean  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 325
Keystone, CO USA
I have never felt worthy to speak on other folks music as my position as a nobody,
I know that's not very sporting.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
mik1953, sklove, Catfish, JAPOV, ali1019
21205 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics119,145
Posts1,123,114
Members21,205
Average Posts Daily35
Most Online1,541
Feb 21st, 2019
Just Plain Quotes
"We are all millionaires, billionaires even, because right now we have today. And today is worth more than all the wealth we can imagine. So spend today wisely. Spend tomorrow wisely. Enjoy the wealth of today, and realize it is worth far more than all the money and possessions of tomorrow and beyond." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
Dennis song lyrics (44), Dennis Wright (44)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0