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#1151214 - 02/25/19 05:56 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


That is because people at open mics people are listening for the performance, not the song. The vast majority of people do listen for the performance and production.




Not the case.
Many of these were NSAI functions such as swaps and almost all were amateur songwriters singing to other amateur songwriters.
They were listening to all aspects and most of them just politely passing the time until it was their moment. Not unlike here.

If you want people to listen to your "song" then it will need to "sound" good...in any context. One bit of proof could be this thread. You can argue against that 50 ways to Sunday, but you are paddling against the current.

"No groove, no song."

Not my quote.

#1151216 - 02/25/19 06:06 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


That is because people at open mics people are listening for the performance, not the song. The vast majority of people do listen for the performance and production.




Not the case.
Many of these were NSAI functions such as swaps and almost all were amateur songwriters singing to other amateur songwriters.
They were listening to all aspects and most of them just politely passing the time until it was their moment. Not unlike here.

If you want people to listen to your "song" then it will need to "sound" good...in any context. One bit of proof could be this thread.
You can argue against that 50 ways to Sunday, but you are paddling against the current.


Depends what the rules are. If I started a songwriting forum for songwriters with a strict criteria, NO FINISHED DEMOS, only rough takes, all would be forced to listen and interact with others based on the song. Thats how it was for years and decades before home recording became a reality.

Then everybody thought they were producers, which they are not.

I skip over most songs here, because they stink, not because they arent recorded well. And I think we pidgeon hole people, if somebody is known to post crap all the time, you know what to expect, one day they may surprise me with a gem.

But if you think because somebody has a good recording of their song, that makes it any better than somebody elses you're wrong.

Anybody can buy a demo, anybody can buy a record quality demo if willing to pay through the nose.

What if everybody had a great demo of their song, then, whats left? Some songs are still going to be better than others, for a myriad of reasons.

Many of the reasons is songwriting.

#1151217 - 02/25/19 06:17 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


But if you think because somebody has a good recording of their song, that makes it any better than somebody elses you're wrong.



As a practical matter, I fully believe that. I fully believe that the recording is the ultimate scoreboard for a song.

Have no knowledge of the actual music industry, just the ammy sites industry.

But have always read that when a producer for a star is sorting through hundreds of songs for ones that he/she will stake his/her's and his/her's client careers on.... that producer is unlikely to spend any time dressing a song up in their own mind. They want to hear what it will sound like then and there. The underlying assumption appears to be that if you cant deliver a good sounding song, then you aren't good.

Can't confirm that but it looks like reality to me.

Anecdotally, when I'm sitting in my office at home listening to some of the offerings here over speakers and my wife yells in "that sounds awful" I get a pretty clear indicator of where human nature and bad sounding songs part company. wink

#1151218 - 02/25/19 06:23 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


But if you think because somebody has a good recording of their song, that makes it any better than somebody elses you're wrong.



As a practical matter, I fully believe that. I fully believe that...that is the ultimate scoreboard for a song.

Have no knowledge of the actual music industry, just the ammy sites industry.

But have always read that when a producer for a star is sorting through hundreds of songs for ones that will make people download his client, that producer is unlikely to spend any time dressing a song up in their own mind. They want to hear what it will sound like then and there.

Can't confirm that but it looks like reality to me.

Anecdotally, when I'm sitting in my office at home listening to some if the offerings here over speakers and my wife yells in "that sounds awful" I get a pretty clear indicator of where human nature and bad sounding songs part company. wink


Oh no doubt, any music listener needs a good sounding recording to like it....or NOT like it even. And today most publishers have little vision and cant hear a song either.

Dont get me wrong, sounding good is a huge part of it. All im suggesting is that as songwriters, people who write with pen in hand and a lone instrument, we must "know" what is worth recording and what isnt. Otherwise we'd record every song we ever wrote.

How do we know whats worth it? Based on the elements of the song, remember we are writing it, it hasnt been recorded. How do we know whats worth recording?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/25/19 06:23 PM.
#1151219 - 02/25/19 06:25 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio





How do we know whats worth it? Based on the elements of the song, remember we are writing it, it hasnt been recorded. How do we know whats worth recording?


Brings up a good point. You probably dont know that a song is good until someone proves it with a recording.

#1151220 - 02/25/19 08:13 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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"But have always read that when a producer for a star is sorting through hundreds of songs for ones that he/she will stake his/her's and his/her's client careers on.... that producer is unlikely to spend any time dressing a song up in their own mind. They want to hear what it will sound like then and there. The underlying assumption appears to be that if you cant deliver a good sounding song, then you aren't good."

This is quite true. The fact is now that we all listen to "snippets" of songs instead of listening to a full song. Anyone that has an ""Echo Dot" will say "Alexia, play..." and only play a piece of a song and then someone else goes to another song. So it is partially our distracted overworked brains, that give us the "8 second attention spans" that we all have now.

When a producer is going through hundreds of songs, usually those are written by the artist, are involved through their own publishing company catalogs or in some cases, the producers themselves are writers and their own songs get priority first. That can easily bring in several hundreds of even thousands of songs, from people they have personal relationships with. So going outside to look for songs is something that almost never happens.

Having said that there are many occasions that songs have come to artists/producers/labels from very indirect sources, someone hearing it and sending a link to someone else who passes it on. Friend of a friend of a friend, sort of thing. For that reason we should all keep in mind in anything that we put "out there" should have the best presentation we can, as you never know where it is going to end up.

My comments to Neil here, came as a suggestion to a friend, as we have known each other and actually written and recorded some songs before. Any time I worked with him, I did my best to get him a working representation of the songs we did that he could play in front of anyone. If he is doing more involved recordings, which I took this to be since it had some music tracks to it, I suggested making sure the voice was up to par for his song. I have not listened to his other songs, was just drawn to this thread when I saw his name.

But I would always suggest when you are trying to get something "out there", take away every reason that someone might turn it off. And the quality of a recording is a big reason people will turn something off now.

#1151232 - 02/26/19 10:08 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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All the above comments are very sincere, helpful and spot on.
Thanks

Somewhere, have we lost sight of the fact that this is a critique forum, not a publishers'/producers' listening forum. or a stop for entertainment....That's the way I have always perceived it.....just saying!.
I will have to re-access my participation...both posting and critiquing.

#1151233 - 02/26/19 10:33 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


But if you think because somebody has a good recording of their song, that makes it any better than somebody elses you're wrong.



As a practical matter, I fully believe that. I fully believe that the recording is the ultimate scoreboard for a song.

Have no knowledge of the actual music industry, just the ammy sites industry.

But have always read that when a producer for a star is sorting through hundreds of songs for ones that he/she will stake his/her's and his/her's client careers on.... that producer is unlikely to spend any time dressing a song up in their own mind. They want to hear what it will sound like then and there. The underlying assumption appears to be that if you cant deliver a good sounding song, then you aren't good.

Can't confirm that but it looks like reality to me.

Anecdotally, when I'm sitting in my office at home listening to some of the offerings here over speakers and my wife yells in "that sounds awful" I get a pretty clear indicator of where human nature and bad sounding songs part company. wink

Don't play my songs loudly...keep peace in the family LOL

#1151234 - 02/26/19 10:34 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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For my part, I haven't lost sight of that Neil. (critique forum)

And I have long since concluded that no producer will ever solicit my music. And I don't want to be buried in a publisher's catalogue either...even if offered the chance. So I've no illusions about clearing either one of those bars.

PC technology and people such as Mike Z now make good recordings easy and affordable to a guy like me. No studios, No corralling musicians, no 1000 to 1500 bucks a song. That's been a game changer for everything and everyone.

And I have clearly seen that the better my songs sound, the more responsive people are to them. Which is the point that this thread started on.

One of my deceased father's dad-isms was "it's easier to love something that is lovely." The first time that I heard that as a kid, I remember thinking..."spare me!" But there's a lot of truth in it when applied to songs too.

Last edited by Martin Lide; 02/26/19 10:39 AM.
#1151235 - 02/26/19 11:08 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio





How do we know whats worth it? Based on the elements of the song, remember we are writing it, it hasnt been recorded. How do we know whats worth recording?


Brings up a good point. You probably dont know that a song is good until someone proves it with a recording.


You wouldnt try to "prove" its good, unless you thought you had a good melody, some catchy phrases, a solid lyric line (not in that order, and none more important than the other)
but you wouldnt unless you thought your song was good.

If somebody dont know they have something good until somebody records it well, they might as well not record it because it wont be.

I think you're projecting your own take on songwriting. Maybe you dont think you have something until its recorded, but i have known ive had something while the idea was a melody in my head. I have tons of ideas in my head that dont even a have a chord progression.

paddles.....

#1151236 - 02/26/19 11:12 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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Fd, Neil....

That's all I got.

Martin

#1151238 - 02/26/19 11:59 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
"But have always read that when a producer for a star is sorting through hundreds of songs for ones that he/she will stake his/her's and his/her's client careers on.... that producer is unlikely to spend any time dressing a song up in their own mind. They want to hear what it will sound like then and there. The underlying assumption appears to be that if you cant deliver a good sounding song, then you aren't good."

This is quite true. The fact is now that we all listen to "snippets" of songs instead of listening to a full song. Anyone that has an ""Echo Dot" will say "Alexia, play..." and only play a piece of a song and then someone else goes to another song. So it is partially our distracted overworked brains, that give us the "8 second attention spans" that we all have now.

When a producer is going through hundreds of songs, usually those are written by the artist, are involved through their own publishing company catalogs or in some cases, the producers themselves are writers and their own songs get priority first. That can easily bring in several hundreds of even thousands of songs, from people they have personal relationships with. So going outside to look for songs is something that almost never happens.

Having said that there are many occasions that songs have come to artists/producers/labels from very indirect sources, someone hearing it and sending a link to someone else who passes it on. Friend of a friend of a friend, sort of thing. For that reason we should all keep in mind in anything that we put "out there" should have the best presentation we can, as you never know where it is going to end up.

My comments to Neil here, came as a suggestion to a friend, as we have known each other and actually written and recorded some songs before. Any time I worked with him, I did my best to get him a working representation of the songs we did that he could play in front of anyone. If he is doing more involved recordings, which I took this to be since it had some music tracks to it, I suggested making sure the voice was up to par for his song. I have not listened to his other songs, was just drawn to this thread when I saw his name.

But I would always suggest when you are trying to get something "out there", take away every reason that someone might turn it off. And the quality of a recording is a big reason people will turn something off now.





You can't buy experience like this. Great advice!



Regards,


Bob

#1151239 - 02/26/19 12:06 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
"But have always read that when a producer for a star is sorting through hundreds of songs for ones that he/she will stake his/her's and his/her's client careers on.... that producer is unlikely to spend any time dressing a song up in their own mind. They want to hear what it will sound like then and there. The underlying assumption appears to be that if you cant deliver a good sounding song, then you aren't good."

This is quite true. The fact is now that we all listen to "snippets" of songs instead of listening to a full song. Anyone that has an ""Echo Dot" will say "Alexia, play..." and only play a piece of a song and then someone else goes to another song. So it is partially our distracted overworked brains, that give us the "8 second attention spans" that we all have now.

When a producer is going through hundreds of songs, usually those are written by the artist, are involved through their own publishing company catalogs or in some cases, the producers themselves are writers and their own songs get priority first. That can easily bring in several hundreds of even thousands of songs, from people they have personal relationships with. So going outside to look for songs is something that almost never happens.

Having said that there are many occasions that songs have come to artists/producers/labels from very indirect sources, someone hearing it and sending a link to someone else who passes it on. Friend of a friend of a friend, sort of thing. For that reason we should all keep in mind in anything that we put "out there" should have the best presentation we can, as you never know where it is going to end up.

My comments to Neil here, came as a suggestion to a friend, as we have known each other and actually written and recorded some songs before. Any time I worked with him, I did my best to get him a working representation of the songs we did that he could play in front of anyone. If he is doing more involved recordings, which I took this to be since it had some music tracks to it, I suggested making sure the voice was up to par for his song. I have not listened to his other songs, was just drawn to this thread when I saw his name.

But I would always suggest when you are trying to get something "out there", take away every reason that someone might turn it off. And the quality of a recording is a big reason people will turn something off now.


There is still a point where the song is being written, that the writer has to make decisions. What chord will i use to get from section A to section B. Does my melody and lyric seem like the belong together? How can I come up with a bridge that is different than the verse and chorus, yet still sounds like it belongs in the the whole thing.

What can I use as a hook? Does my second verse bring new information to the listener or does it say the same thing as my first verse? Does the rhythm of my song flow well or is it choppy? If my song is gonna be about flying in an airplane, how can I write it as if im actually flying in an airplane?

How can i get from this chord to that chord. How do i get out of the chorus and back into the verse seemlessly.

AM I using the right settings, the right prosody, the right context.

Do the words SOUND good as well as look good.

All this takes place before its recorded. Unless your writing to a track, then your trying to see how you can match the track.

I wouldnt dream of trying to do any business without a great product to listen to, and i wouldnt let anybody in power hear a crap recording, but songwriting has a process to it.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/26/19 12:09 PM.
#1151246 - 02/26/19 04:31 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Great discussion...thanks everyone...

#1151258 - 02/27/19 04:56 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Perry Neal Crawford Offline
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What sells at the moment is the nightmare future of this industry. Poop on a loop.

#1151259 - 02/27/19 05:24 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Perry Neal Crawford]  
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Originally Posted by Perry Neal Crawford
What sells at the moment is the nightmare future of this industry. Poop on a loop.


Yep. And if I was in the position to sell poop on a loop, life might be easy. But, im not in a position to sell poop on a loop.

The only reward im ever going to get from songwriting is writing something really great. At least great for rock n roll standards. I dont think id ever write a sonata or a musical masterpiece, or a great standard.

But I can try to find a place between the cracks of my favorites.

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Feb 21st, 2019
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"You really shouldn't listen too much to your positive press or your negative press. Both are probably inaccurate. But if you find you must heed the opinions of others, why not choose the 80% who love you?" -Brian Austin Whitney
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