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by Everett Adams. 09/23/19 07:12 AM
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#1150908 - 02/14/19 03:56 PM 4 and no comments  
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Neil Cotton Online content
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I have 4 songs posted in MP3 forum with ZERO comments..WTF???

#1150909 - 02/14/19 04:10 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
I have 4 songs posted in MP3 forum with ZERO comments..WTF???



No news is good news Neil. laugh

John smile

#1150911 - 02/14/19 05:35 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Well when I give comments, people get mad at me. And for high praise, I often dont even give that out for my favorite bands of all time. Depending on the album.

Unless you like the generic Nice Job!

I've seen no responses for some good songs, sometimes its the audio, which is probably the case. The vocals make the melody hard to hear.

#1150914 - 02/14/19 08:44 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Dave Rice Offline
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Don't be too discouraged, Neil:

Our numbers are shrinking (old hands) and the newbies probably won't start commenting until they "learn the ropes" here at JPF... if they even return. I'm having to use another PC because my Wi-Fi was hacked and is now off-line. (Little stinkers.)

I've got too many things going on here to spend much time at my favorite site... as well as Wi-Fi problems. Dentists, Doctors, Honey-Do projects and new neighbors. It's always something.

One "trick" you may want to consider... wait several days before sharing a new song. If you post fewer songs, you won't be competing with yourself as much and the interest of other participants will probably improve. No guarantees, but a JPF Master Writer told me about that trick several years ago and it seems to work.

All the best, ----Dave

#1150915 - 02/14/19 09:17 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
I have 4 songs posted in MP3 forum with ZERO comments..WTF???



No news is good news Neil. laugh

John smile

The silver lining...thanks John smile

#1150916 - 02/14/19 09:20 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Dave Rice]  
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Neil Cotton Online content
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Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Don't be too discouraged, Neil:

Our numbers are shrinking (old hands) and the newbies probably won't start commenting until they "learn the ropes" here at JPF... if they even return. I'm having to use another PC because my Wi-Fi was hacked and is now off-line. (Little stinkers.)

I've got too many things going on here to spend much time at my favorite site... as well as Wi-Fi problems. Dentists, Doctors, Honey-Do projects and new neighbors. It's always something.

One "trick" you may want to consider... wait several days before sharing a new song. If you post fewer songs, you won't be competing with yourself as much and the interest of other participants will probably improve. No guarantees, but a JPF Master Writer told me about that trick several years ago and it seems to work.

All the best, ----Dave

Dave, thanks ...sometimes I feel like I'm in a vacuum...maybe too many too soon. I've written several since Jan 1st. I'm expecting too much I guess. Your comments have been helpful.

#1150917 - 02/14/19 09:23 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Well when I give comments, people get mad at me. And for high praise, I often dont even give that out for my favorite bands of all time. Depending on the album.

Unless you like the generic Nice Job!

I've seen no responses for some good songs, sometimes its the audio, which is probably the case. The vocals make the melody hard to hear.


My vocals are not sharp in many cases as they generally are first pass. I'm hoping people can look past that to hear the song. But even publishers can't hear the song unless it's a pro demo LOL

#1150918 - 02/14/19 09:23 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Thanks guys...rant over

#1150930 - 02/15/19 06:48 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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It can be like spam.
I agree a lot with what Dave says. Too much too soon is a common occurrence on here. Sometimes I see two or three songs brought out in rapid fire and can see how they might make one whole better song between them if only a bit more thought went into it.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1150932 - 02/15/19 09:09 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Vicarn]  
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Neil Cotton Online content
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Originally Posted by Vicarn
It can be like spam.
I agree a lot with what Dave says. Too much too soon is a common occurrence on here. Sometimes I see two or three songs brought out in rapid fire and can see how they might make one whole better song between them if only a bit more thought went into it.

Vic

Good point
Thanks Vic

Rapid Fire is my pseudonym LOL
they come in bursts


Last edited by Neil Cotton; 02/15/19 09:10 AM.
#1150934 - 02/15/19 10:51 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Yes Neil,
I too have been ignored by experts! In the past I have also received invites to submit anytime and one guy even replied to me to never submit to him again! Twice. As far as I can tell, the Music Industry is mostly dead at the moment. Oh, well.


Ray E. Strode
#1150949 - 02/15/19 03:57 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Ray, Vic, John L. S., .F. M, Dave R.

.I write as they come to me...if I get a favourable comment I would take some time to improve it, especially if I get some helpful suggestions. I like all my songs, one way or another.; some more than others. I will not hire a pro demo if it is just "another song". My own productions are genrally in the "room for improvement" category LOL
I have submitted to NSAI and have gotten the most bizarre replies.
I did have one (this needs to be heard) recommended for publisher listen but nothing.

it's very much like chasing one's own tail. LOL

#1150964 - 02/16/19 01:44 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Neil,

My experience has always been that 2 things have to happen to expect much feedback.

1. You only post one song and not a second until 2...

2. You offer critiques to at least 5 other people to help boost their stuff and show you're not just taking, but giving even more.

I have given out this advice to every new user for 20 years. Now with fewer people posting stuff because of social media sucking away time, it's even more important to help create what you wish to receive. More activity breads... drum roll... MORE ACTIVITY. If every regular created 2 new non song/lyric posts per day and reviewed some songs and/or lyrics, we'd see participation from lurkers exponentially go up. We are actually getting as much traffic here as we ever have but barely anyone posts because our "regular" posters have passed away. Tampa Stan not only had the most posts, he created ACTIVITY which drove activity just like everyone else with your numbers and up have done long term. So do some reviews, post an interesting link or story or ask an interesting participation question like Ray did (one of our biggest posts ever) and you'll find more of what you want to get back, participation and support.

It is rare to go 0-for if you are putting in the time and effort to share the love.

Your choice,

Brian


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#1150967 - 02/16/19 09:22 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Good advice
I have most often gone with posting on three others....and looking for zero replies. I don't pick posts that already have many replies. I lose confidence to post my suggestions when i don't get replies on my own songs...and around we go.


I never post more than one per day....

Last edited by Neil Cotton; 02/16/19 09:26 AM.
#1150969 - 02/16/19 12:23 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
Good advice
I have most often gone with posting on three others....and looking for zero replies. I don't pick posts that already have many replies. I lose confidence to post my suggestions when i don't get replies on my own songs...and around we go.


I never post more than one per day....


I have seen you around for a long time, on several forums Neil. You are a veteran of forums, and you are one of the few I have seen who are here JUST to post songs. You rarely get involved in any other topic. And you try to keep the song process going on here. If I had a songwriting forum, I would certainly want you on it. And you're one of the nicest guys

I think you have to think about the kind of feedback you are looking for. This is not like that other site, not everybody here is pitching country songs, not everybody wants songwriting analysis. It may be that kind of thing is dead. So, when you do get a few listeners, you have to hope one of them at least, is into the art of songwriting, and not just listening for entertainment, and listening for their own taste of music to come through. I'm guilty of that myself, I'm biased towards music I like, but i try to be open to other styles.

Nobody likes somebody saying their hard work is lacking, but really, how often is somebody going to be so moved by a song on here, that they want to go out and buy it?

There is no doubt about it, even on a site with many songwriters, that you are perceived by how good you sound. Some folks could care a less if the song is good or not because the recording of it will make it seem good, because compared to lesser recordings it is. Compared to the recordings we hear on the radio, it's not even close

In my opinion, you are writing the song, and then throwing it together using Band In a Box and rough vocals, and trying to compete with others here who have the whole [naughty word removed] down.

If your songs were professionally recorded, or at least really good recordings, you'd have tons of replies, many of them saying how great writing it was. it's just how it is.

What's great is you keep doing it, it's obviously a hobby that makes you happy, so keep on keeping on!

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/16/19 01:20 PM.
#1150974 - 02/16/19 08:18 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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I don't have a problem how someone posts, I just try to give realistic advice on how to get feedback. As a long time valuable member of JPF Neil, you get it, I just wanted to let any new person reading your post (which they could take really negatively) to see there's a way past it and how you can become a valuable member of the community and be an actual part in creating what it is you want back.

If you look at the history of our board from day one, we're close to 10 responses per 1 post across the board, and that is with the small tiny boards in the bottom 90% of the boards going mostly without responses (mostly because we closed down our chapters when I fell ill and by the time I was ready to restart them the time had passed to find coordinators who were qualified and people willing to put down their phones and meet people face to face.


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#1150977 - 02/17/19 03:35 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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HI NEIL In general people are quite kind with their replies, I prefer to be honest

and many cant take that , I find most want to stick to one genre , I would find

that boring , If you want to improve maybe try a few other genres

Great Songwriting is about re writing and re writing No publisher would even consider

a lyric on its own . Do you ever re write when people point out what they see as a

problem , in your work. I have often pointed out the fact that your vocals are very week

I for one cant handle poor vocals , maybe get someone who can sing properly would

be of some help; Keep at it whatever Neil you come across as a decent guy ,

If we cant be honest with each other how are we going to improve ???


Last edited by Cheyenne; 02/17/19 03:38 AM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1150982 - 02/17/19 12:17 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Martin Lide Offline
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Neil

I think that Cheyenne hit on your basic issue. The primary criteria that defines a song is musicality. Without that it is a poem or a metrical and rhyming something...and not a song.

For a song to be good, it has to have an appealing tune. Bob Dylan and a few others aside, the message, hook etc don't usually don't get considered unless the tune appeals to the listener.

imho...you need to bring more focus to the music side of your songs.

Martin

#1150988 - 02/17/19 04:33 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Cheyenne]  
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Neil Cotton Online content
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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
HI NEIL In general people are quite kind with their replies, I prefer to be honest

and many cant take that , I find most want to stick to one genre , I would find

that boring , If you want to improve maybe try a few other genres

Great Songwriting is about re writing and re writing No publisher would even consider

a lyric on its own . Do you ever re write when people point out what they see as a

problem , in your work. I have often pointed out the fact that your vocals are very week

I for one cant handle poor vocals , maybe get someone who can sing properly would

be of some help; Keep at it whatever Neil you come across as a decent guy ,

If we cant be honest with each other how are we going to improve ???


yes you are right the vocal can be better...even a reply such as that is much better to me than no comment, which is what this was originally about. Yes rewriting is a great idea...some of which I do...as far as one genre I can't do but 3...which are similar in root. Often, I can't recall you replying often sorry...my bad...my melodies are my weak point...I can hit the right notes if I redo several times. It seems like a waste of time if the song sux....I think nad I may be wrong that people can hear the Makings of a song without the performance being perfect. Even a comment on the lyrics can be helpful.

.I have no access to publishers so, that is not a worry. LOL Can you help.
Let me know if the song, or phrasing or timing isn't working, not my vocal...LOL
Thanks.


Last edited by Neil Cotton; 02/17/19 07:22 PM.
#1150989 - 02/17/19 07:02 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Neil

I think that Cheyenne hit on your basic issue. The primary criteria that defines a song is musicality. Without that it is a poem or a metrical and rhyming something...and not a song.

For a song to be good, it has to have an appealing tune. Bob Dylan and a few others aside, the message, hook etc don't usually don't get considered unless the tune appeals to the listener.

imho...you need to bring more focus to the music side of your songs.

Martin

Thanks Martin I will try to. Actually I am. LOL

#1151063 - 02/20/19 07:40 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Neil I did listen to the "Rubber Road" song. You probably should consider hiring or getting someone else to sing on your songs. You want the best presentation on them and vocals are very important on that. I just think your voice is probably not up to what you are trying to do. We all write some things that don't work for our voices. Just get your best songs and get someone else to sing it. No shame in that.

MAB

#1151073 - 02/20/19 11:41 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Neil Cotton Online content
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Neil I did listen to the "Rubber Road" song. You probably should consider hiring or getting someone else to sing on your songs. You want the best presentation on them and vocals are very important on that. I just think your voice is probably not up to what you are trying to do. We all write some things that don't work for our voices. Just get your best songs and get someone else to sing it. No shame in that.

MAB

You are absolutely correct..it was an experiment , not a finished product. It came after a local Online discussion of a local road that once was used as a drag strip.
Any suggestions for a free vocalist LOL
I'll pay if it would get serious consideration smile

#1151100 - 02/22/19 01:29 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Neil,

To my knowledge, there is nothing that is free. My suggestion to you and all other writers is to reach out to people in your community and you will probably find some new up and coming singers that might be willing to work with you on some of this. It might also help to get some feedback on your songs before going to trouble or expense. But nothing is a guarantee. It is very difficult to get songs even listened to now, and so much of what we are doing is for ourselves.
I can only tell you what we all have to go through. You always want your best vocals and production on anything you put into the online universe.

It is just always easier finding people you can actually sit down with and have conversations. The long distance thing is an iffy proposition and can lead to being ripped off, just like anything.

I would suggest if you are posting a song to make sure it has the correct title on it.

#1151112 - 02/23/19 05:05 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Well, there is talent in places you don't think there is any. Heck, this message board produced Chris Young and Kacey Musgraves who were both here when they were young and nobody. If it were me, I would find my best song and start looking for a young singer who is likely too young at that point to be a writer. They may sing 10 of your songs for pizza money and feel like it was a great deal (and to a young kid, it would be). It gives them a budding collection of songs they've sung and you get a good voice for a demo. For that matter, you don't have to find a young Chris Young or Kacey Musgraves. You can find someone half as good who still will sound better than you own voice if you can't sing well. I couldn't sing well, so I found a great singer when I was young and he couldn't play an instrument or write a melody and was so-so on lyrics, but needed someone who could take his ideas, give him equal writing credit, write music for them and polish up the lyrics a bit and in exchange I got a literal broadway talent to sing my songs and wrote a whole bunch of songs in a style I never would have because I worked with him. Make more friends, even at your age Neil, with someone young and hungry. Go to a local songwriters org nearby and pluck an average singer out of them to work with. An average singer is better than a bad singer right? And you never know who they'll turn into. So many people over they years have come through this message board and said "where are all the stars? where are all the hit writers? etc." meanwhile, we had two young world class talents (and there have been others) here all the time that may have worked with ANYONE who had reached out at that time. You have to work it and find someone. See if there is an Open Mic in Georgetown and pluck someone from there. Just give it a try, you may be amazed. Go to a local school and ask if there are any young singers among them and that you'd like to talk to their parents about having them record one of your songs and you can make it a "show and tell" day in class to debut the result. I am just tossing out things anyone could do if they want to find a singer even in a place without obvious resources. There are singers everywhere just like there are writers everywhere. But you have to go out and find them. And it is fun! Go have some fun with it. (This goes for any of you in a similar situation).


Brian Austin Whitney
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#1151119 - 02/23/19 11:45 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Neil I did listen to the "Rubber Road" song. You probably should consider hiring or getting someone else to sing on your songs. You want the best presentation on them and vocals are very important on that. I just think your voice is probably not up to what you are trying to do. We all write some things that don't work for our voices. Just get your best songs and get someone else to sing it. No shame in that.

MAB

You are absolutely correct..it was an experiment , not a finished product. It came after a local Online discussion of a local road that once was used as a drag strip.
Any suggestions for a free vocalist LOL
I'll pay if it would get serious consideration smile


I would sing your songs for free, and im sure others would too, but what will happen? You will say so and so is singing lead, and suddenly the focus of your song will be on the singer. Nobody will say great song, great melody, great lyric, they will say great/good vocal. You're not showcasing the singer, but that's what will happen

If you read the comments in the song section, it's all about "mike did a great job on the production"

When I was active posting songs (im working on getting better at recording) but when I was, the focus was always on the singing, harmonies, production.

Not the song. Especially lyricists. Lyricists are notorious for pointing out everything that is good, except the lyrics. it might suggest to you that you need them....ahemmm

One thing you might consider is using the resident "Mike". That wouldnt be for songwriting feedback, it would be to have a decent demo of your song.

Pick a few songs, i hear he's very affordable. But if you do post it, dont tell anybody he did it....

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/23/19 12:42 PM.
#1151124 - 02/23/19 01:42 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Goal #1 of a song should be appeal. Whatever makes a song appealing is a good thing. The primary consideration for a song is the music. If that doesnt work, it isnt a good song.

My suggestion...do whatever or employ whomever that makes your song as appealing as you can make it.
Still no guarantee that anyone else will notice or care, but you will.

Martin

#1151127 - 02/23/19 02:14 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Goal #1 of a song should be appeal. Whatever makes a song appealing is a good thing. The primary consideration for a song is the music. If that doesnt work, it isnt a good song.

My suggestion...do whatever or employ whomever that makes your song as appealing as you can make it.
Still no guarantee that anyone else will notice or care, but you will.

Martin


I agree, but hes talking about basic feedback on a song. An acoustic guitar and scratch vocal should be enough for songwriters. but it seems now everybody wants to hear full demos.

#1151132 - 02/23/19 04:31 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Whether a single instrument or a full production, the music, vocals and whatever else is there, has to be appealing.

As someone wrote on one of these sites years ago..."no groove, no song."

#1151133 - 02/23/19 04:40 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Whether a single instrument or a full production, the music, vocals and whatever else is there, has to be appealing.

As someone wrote on one of these sites years ago..."no groove, no song."


Depends what type of song it is. if its a lyric featured song, it can still make an impact, so long as the melody is good. if its a groove featured song obviously it cant.

#1151134 - 02/23/19 05:02 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Whether a single instrument or a full production, the music, vocals and whatever else is there, has to be appealing.

As someone wrote on one of these sites years ago..."no groove, no song."


Depends what type of song it is. if its a lyric featured song, it can still make an impact, so long as the melody is good. if its a groove featured song obviously it cant.



Those are possible trees.
The forest..."no groove, no song."

Not my quote.

#1151136 - 02/23/19 05:21 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Whether a single instrument or a full production, the music, vocals and whatever else is there, has to be appealing.

As someone wrote on one of these sites years ago..."no groove, no song."


Depends what type of song it is. if its a lyric featured song, it can still make an impact, so long as the melody is good. if its a groove featured song obviously it cant.



Those are possible trees.
The forest..."no groove, no song."

Not my quote.


It's very hard for a song to be any good without everything working, I agree with that. And alot of what we think of as a great song is a combination of melody, lyric, arrangement, perfomance, production. But pure songwriters deal with the melody and lyric. So sometimes they are asking for feedback on that alone, a regular listener of music doesnt have the capacity to know a good song without a big presentation.

I think Neil is just looking to see if his ideas are good.

#1151137 - 02/23/19 05:28 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Whether a single instrument or a full production, the music, vocals and whatever else is there, has to be appealing.

As someone wrote on one of these sites years ago..."no groove, no song."


Depends what type of song it is. if its a lyric featured song, it can still make an impact, so long as the melody is good. if its a groove featured song obviously it cant.



Those are possible trees.
The forest..."no groove, no song."

Not my quote.


It's very hard for a song to be any good without everything working, I agree with that. And alot of what we think of as a great song is a combination of melody, lyric, arrangement, perfomance, production. But pure songwriters deal with the melody and lyric. So sometimes they are asking for feedback on that alone, a regular listener of music doesnt have the capacity to know a good song without a big presentation.

I think Neil is just looking to see if his ideas are good.


True.

But he is concerned about a lack of responses. So...

#1151138 - 02/23/19 05:38 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Lack of responses from songwriters who do the same thing he does. There are tons of people who dont perform on this site.

They shouldnt have to have a production for a fellow songwriter to say "i like that line" or I like that chorus.

People here are listening like music listeners, not songwriters.

Yet, there are tons of songs on the radio that I think suck, yet how is it that everything is great on this site?

If not judging by songwriting, but total package, than are we allowed to say they suck too, or are we a supportive group who knows the needs of the songwriter?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/23/19 05:40 PM.
#1151144 - 02/23/19 08:19 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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I dunno about all that. I truly don't.
All I can say for sure is, if I click on a song and like what I hear, I'm much more likely to continue listening...and comment.

The best advice I can personally give Neil is to make it sound good wherever its posted.

Martin

#1151151 - 02/24/19 01:13 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Neil,

To my knowledge, there is nothing that is free. My suggestion to you and all other writers is to reach out to people in your community and you will probably find some new up and coming singers that might be willing to work with you on some of this. It might also help to get some feedback on your songs before going to trouble or expense. But nothing is a guarantee. It is very difficult to get songs even listened to now, and so much of what we are doing is for ourselves.
I can only tell you what we all have to go through. You always want your best vocals and production on anything you put into the online universe.

It is just always easier finding people you can actually sit down with and have conversations. The long distance thing is an iffy proposition and can lead to being ripped off, just like anything.

I would suggest if you are posting a song to make sure it has the correct title on it.


MAB. most of this rings true. It's a lottery, but I must take the following to heart. " I can only tell you what we all have to go through. You always want your best vocals and production on anything you put into the online universe."
Sadly I have seldom done this, knowing the aforementioned lottery scenario applied. Just looking for comments not publishing deals LOL

Thanks for sharing your expert advice

#1151152 - 02/24/19 01:16 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Neil I did listen to the "Rubber Road" song. You probably should consider hiring or getting someone else to sing on your songs. You want the best presentation on them and vocals are very important on that. I just think your voice is probably not up to what you are trying to do. We all write some things that don't work for our voices. Just get your best songs and get someone else to sing it. No shame in that.

MAB

You are absolutely correct..it was an experiment , not a finished product. It came after a local Online discussion of a local road that once was used as a drag strip.
Any suggestions for a free vocalist LOL
I'll pay if it would get serious consideration smile


I would sing your songs for free, and im sure others would too, but what will happen? You will say so and so is singing lead, and suddenly the focus of your song will be on the singer. Nobody will say great song, great melody, great lyric, they will say great/good vocal. You're not showcasing the singer, but that's what will happen

If you read the comments in the song section, it's all about "mike did a great job on the production"

When I was active posting songs (im working on getting better at recording) but when I was, the focus was always on the singing, harmonies, production.

Not the song. Especially lyricists. Lyricists are notorious for pointing out everything that is good, except the lyrics. it might suggest to you that you need them....ahemmm

One thing you might consider is using the resident "Mike". That wouldnt be for songwriting feedback, it would be to have a decent demo of your song.

Pick a few songs, i hear he's very affordable. But if you do post it, dont tell anybody he did it....

I agree with all of this...I had always looked at the song as the focus, not the performance.

I would pay a "Mike" if the song was good enough. I bare in mind the saying...you can't polish a turd. frown

#1151153 - 02/24/19 01:20 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Goal #1 of a song should be appeal. Whatever makes a song appealing is a good thing. The primary consideration for a song is the music. If that doesnt work, it isnt a good song.

My suggestion...do whatever or employ whomever that makes your song as appealing as you can make it.
Still no guarantee that anyone else will notice or care, but you will.

Martin

I always thought, as a songwriter, the primary goal of a song was emotional appeal, not the perfect sound; trying to connect with listeners, created the aw haw moment, with an appropriate musical presentation. That's where I have screwed up . LOL

Last edited by Neil Cotton; 02/24/19 01:21 PM.
#1151154 - 02/24/19 01:23 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Lack of responses from songwriters who do the same thing he does. There are tons of people who dont perform on this site.

They shouldnt have to have a production for a fellow songwriter to say "i like that line" or I like that chorus.

People here are listening like music listeners, not songwriters.

Yet, there are tons of songs on the radio that I think suck, yet how is it that everything is great on this site?

If not judging by songwriting, but total package, than are we allowed to say they suck too, or are we a supportive group who knows the needs of the songwriter?


Again I agree. I have heard the industry has changed. Even A & R can't hear a GOOD SONG with out having a pro production.

#1151155 - 02/24/19 01:25 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Whether a single instrument or a full production, the music, vocals and whatever else is there, has to be appealing.

As someone wrote on one of these sites years ago..."no groove, no song."


Depends what type of song it is. if its a lyric featured song, it can still make an impact, so long as the melody is good. if its a groove featured song obviously it cant.



Those are possible trees.
The forest..."no groove, no song."

Not my quote.


It's very hard for a song to be any good without everything working, I agree with that. And alot of what we think of as a great song is a combination of melody, lyric, arrangement, perfomance, production. But pure songwriters deal with the melody and lyric. So sometimes they are asking for feedback on that alone, a regular listener of music doesnt have the capacity to know a good song without a big presentation.

I think Neil is just looking to see if his ideas are good.

Bingo...we have a Bingo, everyone hold your cards until the Bingo is verified.

Last edited by Neil Cotton; 02/24/19 01:35 PM.
#1151156 - 02/24/19 01:34 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Well, there is talent in places you don't think there is any. Heck, this message board produced Chris Young and Kacey Musgraves who were both here when they were young and nobody. If it were me, I would find my best song and start looking for a young singer who is likely too young at that point to be a writer. They may sing 10 of your songs for pizza money and feel like it was a great deal (and to a young kid, it would be). It gives them a budding collection of songs they've sung and you get a good voice for a demo. For that matter, you don't have to find a young Chris Young or Kacey Musgraves. You can find someone half as good who still will sound better than you own voice if you can't sing well. I couldn't sing well, so I found a great singer when I was young and he couldn't play an instrument or write a melody and was so-so on lyrics, but needed someone who could take his ideas, give him equal writing credit, write music for them and polish up the lyrics a bit and in exchange I got a literal broadway talent to sing my songs and wrote a whole bunch of songs in a style I never would have because I worked with him. Make more friends, even at your age Neil, with someone young and hungry. Go to a local songwriters org nearby and pluck an average singer out of them to work with. An average singer is better than a bad singer right? And you never know who they'll turn into. So many people over they years have come through this message board and said "where are all the stars? where are all the hit writers? etc." meanwhile, we had two young world class talents (and there have been others) here all the time that may have worked with ANYONE who had reached out at that time. You have to work it and find someone. See if there is an Open Mic in Georgetown and pluck someone from there. Just give it a try, you may be amazed. Go to a local school and ask if there are any young singers among them and that you'd like to talk to their parents about having them record one of your songs and you can make it a "show and tell" day in class to debut the result. I am just tossing out things anyone could do if they want to find a singer even in a place without obvious resources. There are singers everywhere just like there are writers everywhere. But you have to go out and find them. And it is fun! Go have some fun with it. (This goes for any of you in a similar situation).


Brian,You have made an excellent suggestion.
I must admit I have never (well twice in 400+ songs) reached out. I have seldom asked for help in many aspects of my life. I guess I have seen it as an admission on weakness.
As a songwriter I lack confidence. Thus the statement of having a worthy song to ask someone to sing, depends on getting feedback. I would feel like an idiot asking having some one to waste their time on a poor song. Bottom line, I am not a good networker.

Last edited by Neil Cotton; 02/24/19 01:38 PM.
#1151157 - 02/24/19 03:35 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Goal #1 of a song should be appeal. Whatever makes a song appealing is a good thing. The primary consideration for a song is the music. If that doesnt work, it isnt a good song.

My suggestion...do whatever or employ whomever that makes your song as appealing as you can make it.
Still no guarantee that anyone else will notice or care, but you will.

Martin

I always thought, as a songwriter, the primary goal of a song was emotional appeal, not the perfect sound; trying to connect with listeners, created the aw haw moment, with an appropriate musical presentation. That's where I have screwed up . LOL



Neil

Foremost, please keep in mind that all that I have is an amateur's opinion. smile

I used to see songs in the same way that you described. The lyric tells a story that resonates with listeners and the music appropriately (enough) carries the message. (Dylan, Van Zandt)
But after hanging around these ammy song sites and playing in bands years ago and mostly... trying stuff out at open mics amongst other hackers such as myself...it became clear (to me) that if someone sang a song well to an audience and were merely reciting straight from a cook book....that would go over better than the most profound lyrics set to un-appealing music.

Unrelated sidenote: In that context, the people who went over the best, usually sounded like someone famous. And almost always mistaked that for their own prowess. wink

Back on point...I came to the conclusion that my songs were melodically deficient. Am still a work in progress.

Just my take.

Martin


#1151158 - 02/24/19 05:28 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Goal #1 of a song should be appeal. Whatever makes a song appealing is a good thing. The primary consideration for a song is the music. If that doesnt work, it isnt a good song.

My suggestion...do whatever or employ whomever that makes your song as appealing as you can make it.
Still no guarantee that anyone else will notice or care, but you will.

Martin

I always thought, as a songwriter, the primary goal of a song was emotional appeal, not the perfect sound; trying to connect with listeners, created the aw haw moment, with an appropriate musical presentation. That's where I have screwed up . LOL



Neil

Foremost, please keep in mind that all that I have is an amateur's opinion. smile

I used to see songs in the same way that you described. The lyric tells a story that resonates with listeners and the music appropriately (enough) carries the message. (Dylan, Van Zandt)
But after hanging around these ammy song sites and playing in bands years ago and mostly... trying stuff out at open mics amongst other hackers such as myself...it became clear (to me) that if someone sang a song well to an audience and were merely reciting straight from a cook book....that would go over better than the most profound lyrics set to un-appealing music.

Unrelated sidenote: In that context, the people who went over the best, usually sounded like someone famous. And almost always mistaked that for their own prowess. wink

Back on point...I came to the conclusion that my songs were melodically deficient. Am still a work in progress.

Just my take.

Martin


Melodies are not my strength...so to my point, I need feedback on whether it is working. So to your point, I need to spend more time performing my song than I do, so whatever I hear in my head is heard through a speaker. smile

#1151186 - 02/25/19 11:15 AM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Neil Cotton
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Goal #1 of a song should be appeal. Whatever makes a song appealing is a good thing. The primary consideration for a song is the music. If that doesnt work, it isnt a good song.

My suggestion...do whatever or employ whomever that makes your song as appealing as you can make it.
Still no guarantee that anyone else will notice or care, but you will.

Martin

I always thought, as a songwriter, the primary goal of a song was emotional appeal, not the perfect sound; trying to connect with listeners, created the aw haw moment, with an appropriate musical presentation. That's where I have screwed up . LOL



Neil

Foremost, please keep in mind that all that I have is an amateur's opinion. smile

I used to see songs in the same way that you described. The lyric tells a story that resonates with listeners and the music appropriately (enough) carries the message. (Dylan, Van Zandt)
But after hanging around these ammy song sites and playing in bands years ago and mostly... trying stuff out at open mics amongst other hackers such as myself...it became clear (to me) that if someone sang a song well to an audience and were merely reciting straight from a cook book....that would go over better than the most profound lyrics set to un-appealing music.

Unrelated sidenote: In that context, the people who went over the best, usually sounded like someone famous. And almost always mistaked that for their own prowess. wink

Back on point...I came to the conclusion that my songs were melodically deficient. Am still a work in progress.

Just my take.

Martin



That is because people at open mics people are listening for the performance, not the song. The vast majority of people do listen for the performance and production.

People dont go to the movies looking to see a great script, or a great story line, they want to see great acting performances, and special effects.

But the script is still the nucleus of the whole thing, without the idea or story line, script, you have nothing.

Songs are the same, nobody hears the writers version, they hear the full production and performance, and the writer gets little credit.

Alot of songs are production hits, you can polish a turd contrary to popular belief, and you can get a singer who can "sing the phonebook",

But thats not songwriting, that's something else.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/25/19 11:16 AM.
#1151194 - 02/25/19 01:14 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
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Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 230
Florida U.S.A.
I have nearly always written Lyrics and music together , They have been songs that

I have been pleased to keep performing over the years.

My point about this is the following , there are many lyric writers on web sites like J P F

who write just lyrics , The problem with that is these same lyric writers actually belive

that any lyric can be put to outstanding music that produces near perfect PROSODY

between the two. One Wannabe stated to me that over the years He or She had

collaborated with several Melody Writers , and in that twenty year period they only found it

was necessary to change around three words !!!!!!! Well I know for a fact that rarely

happens in Pro Writing , if one is expecting something worth while and worth a serious PITCH

following a Professional Collaboration - The Two or Three writers involved will get together ,

some where in the procedure The Music will take a direction where certain lines will have to be

lengthened or shortened;

This direction will be the making or the breaking of the song, and most lyric only writers would

not know that it would be the way to go. However if you just want an ( allso ran,) type of

song that has promise here and there then that's another matter .


The next problem will be The Vowel Triangle , (explained by Professor Patt Pattison in one of

his books on songwriting , briefly certain words will not work in the higher register and the same in

the lower register, When Mister Lyric Only is writing his latest offering (mainly for the eye ) he will

in general not be aware of these points , That's why many decent tune smiths wont even bother to

collaborate. Its too long winded and Its easier for them to write on their own, Over the years

there have been many partnerships that have worked , but these are very rare.

There is an awful lot of re writing going on in these Successful Partnerships, Lennon and Mc Cartney

we re one of those rare examples where it worked , but they would always re write their songs .

Dont judge some of their early stuff by many of today's offerings because we are talking about a

period some 60 years ago where some lyrics would now be judged as hammy or corny compared

with present day Language

This is what we are up against NEIL . there are no short cuts , and even One Hit Wonders are

a rare occurrence these days.


Last edited by Cheyenne; 02/25/19 01:35 PM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1151195 - 02/25/19 01:27 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Cheyenne]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,311
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,311
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
I have nearly always written Lyrics and music together , They have been songs that

I have been pleased to keep performing over the years.

My point about this is the following , there are many lyric writers on web sites like J P F

who write just lyrics , The problem with that is these same lyric writers actually belive

that any lyric can be put to outstanding music that produces near perfect PROSODY

between the two. One stated to me that over the years He or She had collaborated with

several Melody Writers , and in that twenty year period they only found it

was necessary to change around three words !!!!!!! Well I know for a fact that rarely

happens in Pro Writing , if one is expecting something worth while and worth a serious PITCH

following a Professional Collaboration - The Two or Three writers involved will get together ,

some where in the procedure The Music will take a direction where certain lines will have to be

lengthened or shortened;

This direction will be the making or the breaking of the song, and most lyric only writers would

not know that it would be the way to go. If you want a song that has promise here and there

then that's another matter .

The next problem will be The Vowel Triangle , (explained by Professor Patt Pattison in one of

his books on songwriting , briefly certain words will not work in the higher register and the same in

the lower register, When Mister Lyric Only is writing his latest offering (mainly for the eye ) he will

in general not be aware of these points , That's why many decent tune smiths wont even bother to

collaborate. Its too long winded and Its easier for them to write on their own, Over the years

there have been many partnerships that have worked , but these are very rare.

There is an awful lot of re writing going on in these Successful Partnerships, Lennon and Mc Cartney

we re one of those rare examples where it worked , Dont judge some of their early stuff by many of

today's offerings because we are talking about a period some 60 years ago where some lyrics

would now be judged as hammy or corny compared with present day Language

This is what we are up against NEIL . there are no short cuts , and even One hit Wonders are

a rare occurrence these days



Pat Pattison has some good info out there on prosody.

You're right about people writing lyrics, lyrics are far from songs. If you look at the lyrics posted, every two lines will rhyme,
all the lines will be symmetrical so it looks tidy on paper.

But there's so much to wrtiing songs.

like the song HOWWWWWWWWWWW LONGGGGGGGGGGGG has this been goin on

It's clear the melody was written first and the lyrics filled it in.

I think in order to do a lyric first justice you have to try to make it fit you, as opposed to making you fit it.

Anything can be arranged recorded and sung, even the worst lyric every written, and it can sound great.

The hope is you write the best song you can possibly write first, then you get the best recording and production and performance you can possibly get, and then
maybe you have a 1% chance of it going somewhere.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/25/19 02:33 PM.
#1151196 - 02/25/19 01:38 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 230
Cheyenne Offline
Serious Contributor
Cheyenne  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 230
Florida U.S.A.
I TOTALLY AGREE


One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1151197 - 02/25/19 01:45 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,257
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,257
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Eh, Yes,
I had a set of lyrics once that really looked good on paper. However when I started to work it out, I do my own melody writing on Acoustic Guitar, I found I needed to do some re-writing to complete it. So many times a set of lyrics look good until you start to put them to music.


Ray E. Strode
#1151198 - 02/25/19 01:50 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,311
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,311
Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Eh, Yes,
I had a set of lyrics once that really looked good on paper. However when I started to work it out, I do my own melody writing on Acoustic Guitar, I found I needed to do some re-writing to complete it. So many times a set of lyrics look good until you start to put them to music.


Every time I write a lyric first, I can never do anything with it musically. I tend to remove myself from music and just write. Almost never works for me, anyway.

When i have the music and melody, often times the lyrics wont be as well thought out, I think that's because melody has more economy than lyrics do.

A three or four note hook can be magical, but if you wrote the lyric first you wouldnt have written that musical hook line, cause we dont write 3 or 4 word lines

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/25/19 01:52 PM.
#1151201 - 02/25/19 03:07 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Cheyenne]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,903
Neil Cotton Online content
Top 50 Poster
Neil Cotton  Online Content
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,903
Georgetown, ON,CANADA
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
I have nearly always written Lyrics and music together , They have been songs that

I have been pleased to keep performing over the years.

My point about this is the following , there are many lyric writers on web sites like J P F

who write just lyrics , The problem with that is these same lyric writers actually belive

that any lyric can be put to outstanding music that produces near perfect PROSODY

between the two. One Wannabe stated to me that over the years He or She had

collaborated with several Melody Writers , and in that twenty year period they only found it

was necessary to change around three words !!!!!!! Well I know for a fact that rarely

happens in Pro Writing , if one is expecting something worth while and worth a serious PITCH

following a Professional Collaboration - The Two or Three writers involved will get together ,

some where in the procedure The Music will take a direction where certain lines will have to be

lengthened or shortened;

This direction will be the making or the breaking of the song, and most lyric only writers would

not know that it would be the way to go. However if you just want an ( allso ran,) type of

song that has promise here and there then that's another matter .


The next problem will be The Vowel Triangle , (explained by Professor Patt Pattison in one of

his books on songwriting , briefly certain words will not work in the higher register and the same in

the lower register, When Mister Lyric Only is writing his latest offering (mainly for the eye ) he will

in general not be aware of these points , That's why many decent tune smiths wont even bother to

collaborate. Its too long winded and Its easier for them to write on their own, Over the years

there have been many partnerships that have worked , but these are very rare.

There is an awful lot of re writing going on in these Successful Partnerships, Lennon and Mc Cartney

we re one of those rare examples where it worked , but they would always re write their songs .

Dont judge some of their early stuff by many of today's offerings because we are talking about a

period some 60 years ago where some lyrics would now be judged as hammy or corny compared

with present day Language

This is what we are up against NEIL . there are no short cuts , and even One Hit Wonders are

a rare occurrence these days.


Interesting ...I will have to look up the triangle thing...I am unaware.

#1151202 - 02/25/19 03:22 PM Re: 4 and no comments [Re: Neil Cotton]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,591
Travis david Online content
Top 10 Poster
Travis david  Online Content
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,591
Kendal, Cumbria .UK
No shortage here Neil.
I think some fellow posters are loath to comment on songs that they feel aren't that good, lyrics too in fear of offending. Not all i might ad!
Basically i would stick to one song at a time, put all effort into it and give it a fair run on the forum before posting others.
Also it's all important "playing the game" Yes i know you don't like it but to get comments you need to give them as well.
Travis


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
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