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#1150962 - 02/15/19 11:57 PM Better Real Orchestra Track?"Stage Door Johnny"  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
Johnny Daubert Offline
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
New Jersey, USA
UPDATE: NEW MIX.

"Stage Door Johnny" Copyright Mike Appel. Original Songwriter; Mike Appel. Orchestration Composition and Arrangement, John Daubert and Mike Caro, Mike Appel. Produced by Mike Appel. Played on Keyboard by John Daubert. One Violin section, Mike Caro, plus Tom Toms
https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/player.cfm?songID=13594628

Not sure if I had this up here before. This is the title "overture of sorts" for Mike Appel's musical. Not in progress, as it seems, but he is still trying to get funding to start rehearsals in Staten island. I don't have any of this written out. It is just another of my layering track after track while picturing the orchestra, and how they might play certain lines and hooks, while the song moves along. I was commissioned to do this piece. Mike Caro of course helped with a middle Violin break, and also on Tom Toms in spots. Produced by Mike Appel, as well as the song being his. We did a rock version first. I then took certain hooks form that version and incorporated them in various ways, with adding much other music, to have it sound like a full orchestra being recorded live. (hense the applause added in). Hopefully enjoy. I loved composing, taking some parts form our rock version, and simply trying to BE an orchestra on one keyboard using Logic Pro X in Audio Wav, Not digital. No programs. Playing in real time for all the instrumentation. Just hammering away track after track, as it came to me. (based on Mike Appel's song).

Thank you for your time, as it is just over 6 minutes. Sometimes, it goes by fast though, via how I wanted to arrange it. (Moves along in rapid fire sometimes).

Last edited by Johnny Daubert; 02/21/19 05:30 PM.

Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1150971 - 02/16/19 02:43 PM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,029
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It's a really nice orchestration from your existing song. I think I'd take the files for this version and have someone with a top line instrumental programming suite (i.e. guys who make computer made versus live acoustic orchestras) that sound like the real thing, guys who do video game soundtracks or just have the set up that has the full depth of sonic mastery of computer originated orchestras, which are available for reasonable prices. I am curious, this sounds like a brilliant arrangement by you (John Daubert) of a song written by (John Daubert). At most, it would seem like Mike Appel was "in the room" producing this? I am puzzled how he is now the sole copyright owner of a previously published copyright? Perhaps I am missing something from the way the credits were written, but it sounds like you did the arrangement AND wrote the song, so I am not sure where you don't own all rights but perhaps the sound recording of this specific version, which I suppose is an agreement you made for ? exactly?

The creative parts are all top notch, I would expect nothing less from you John, but if this is a matter of Mike owning the SR Rights, then I would simply port it over to someone with a better technical rig, tweak it a bit for any loose ends in terms of realistic performances of each individual instrument which is straightforward enough and get a much better recording of this which you own clear and free of anyone else? Unless you somehow gave away your copyright, which I hope isn't the case. If you own the underlying song and this arrangement, the rest is just a recording which is okay as a demo but isn't a finished master by any stretch at least not as presented here.

So it's all good, except I hope you didn't get hosed sums it up. Perhaps this is just a poorly credited blurb and not full reality. If you know what I mean.

Great work John.


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#1151012 - 02/19/19 03:09 AM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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Johnny Daubert Offline
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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Posts: 8,102
New Jersey, USA
First, Thank YOU very much for the high praise, which from you, being honest with me all the time, is something to realize how much you liked it, which I very much appreciate. Thank you.

MIKE APPEL wrote the main melody on acoustic guitar with one vocal lyric track, (his usual demos for Caro and I to build on it all). From the rock version, which I will put up on JPF soon, with how Caro and I mainly played most of the instruments, Appel would listen to what I would come up, or Caro would come up, to have me try things out. I could try anything at all, with Appel saying, "Hearing is Believing,,,try it" I came to be so relaxed in the creative zone I would get it, that I would just let it fly as I wanted to hear it. Most times, it was all a go with Appel. Caro too would let his thoughts be known. Very helpful!

Now, for the Overture, Appel asked me if I could take the rock version as just a foundation, to create a full orchestra overture. I said YES in less than a second, having done much of the same thing with my tunes or others.

He paid me bi weekly, and I would submit via email what I came up with. He at first said he would like a quartet playing the opening, then bring in more and more instruments as it goes.

He would suggest rasing this, or doing more of something. Mainly he liked what I was presenting. I then kept building up the for a 35 piece orchestra, as I tuned for the Philadelphia Orchestra,a nd others, and heard right there, how it all sounded, and as to why certain parts are played with other backing instruments, etc. I was like a open minded vacuum, sucking everything up at once. LOVED it.

After I had Appel at my house to go over it all, as I thought I finished it, he was turned off by the cheap monitors I had leftover form the Too Little Time Band. I quickly ordered the mid size Yamaha's NS 15's, (I think 15 is in there in the title). Powered, Better and slightly bigger than the NS 10's. Appel paid for them for me to have as mine. That was on top of what he was sending via paypay bi weekly.

Once we made notes,(charted all the details as he wanted to hear and feel it all, based on what I had), I went to work to really boost it all up in hooks and counter melodies, and walking piano bass notes down during the chorus, etc. At the studio, when I brought my Mac with the Logic pro x I just got at the beginning of recording the overture, still learning, and is why the recording is under par, we worked on every detail. Appel was relentless in capturing every measure, to have it ALL mean something. So, it was a matter of tweaking this and that. I thought of playing the rim of the snare drum for the light hearted section, to go along with my jazzy clarinet played on the keys. My drumming in that section had it sound as if it was a tap dancer. Appel loved it. One take, while he was sitting right next to me in the open room. Just one mic near the rim.

Caro played his guitar through a box which had it sound like a violin. That was used for the slow, break part, just past 3/4 of the way through the piece.

I added too much reverb, abd did some compression maybe too much, to try to get a simulation live sound, (Experience, more than anything), to give the potential money backers a sense of what it WILL be like at a theater with a 35 piece orchestra.

MOst of the parts I did were just trying things, along with some direction form Appel and Caro. If we all laughed, during or after a short section or riff, or hook, then we knew it was a keeper. Sometimes, I would want to play it again, knowing I could nail it even better. We went to other tracks to do that, then premixing as we went. I did the engineering, for Caro had been really ill all that time, before and after. he taught me his gear a week before I meet Appel.

I also played real drums, which for one tune, was in one take, but which Appel wanted to add some extra crash hits on a few notes. I love playing the drums more the keys or guitar. Now practicing Buddy Rich techniques, to keep my heart a pumping! FUN anyway!

Thanks again!!!! Tis my love!

Last edited by Johnny Daubert; 02/19/19 03:35 AM.

Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1151019 - 02/19/19 01:42 PM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,396
Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,396
Originally Posted by Johnny Daubert
First, Thank YOU very much for the high praise, which from you, being honest with me all the time, is something to realize how much you liked it, which I very much appreciate. Thank you.

MIKE APPEL wrote the main melody on acoustic guitar with one vocal lyric track, (his usual demos for Caro and I to build on it all). From the rock version, which I will put up on JPF soon, with how Caro and I mainly played most of the instruments, Appel would listen to what I would come up, or Caro would come up, to have me try things out. I could try anything at all, with Appel saying, "Hearing is Believing,,,try it" I came to be so relaxed in the creative zone I would get it, that I would just let it fly as I wanted to hear it. Most times, it was all a go with Appel. Caro too would let his thoughts be known. Very helpful!

Now, for the Overture, Appel asked me if I could take the rock version as just a foundation, to create a full orchestra overture. I said YES in less than a second, having done much of the same thing with my tunes or others.

He paid me bi weekly, and I would submit via email what I came up with. He at first said he would like a quartet playing the opening, then bring in more and more instruments as it goes.

He would suggest rasing this, or doing more of something. Mainly he liked what I was presenting. I then kept building up the for a 35 piece orchestra, as I tuned for the Philadelphia Orchestra,a nd others, and heard right there, how it all sounded, and as to why certain parts are played with other backing instruments, etc. I was like a open minded vacuum, sucking everything up at once. LOVED it.

After I had Appel at my house to go over it all, as I thought I finished it, he was turned off by the cheap monitors I had leftover form the Too Little Time Band. I quickly ordered the mid size Yamaha's NS 15's, (I think 15 is in there in the title). Powered, Better and slightly bigger than the NS 10's. Appel paid for them for me to have as mine. That was on top of what he was sending via paypay bi weekly.

Once we made notes,(charted all the details as he wanted to hear and feel it all, based on what I had), I went to work to really boost it all up in hooks and counter melodies, and walking piano bass notes down during the chorus, etc. At the studio, when I brought my Mac with the Logic pro x I just got at the beginning of recording the overture, still learning, and is why the recording is under par, we worked on every detail. Appel was relentless in capturing every measure, to have it ALL mean something. So, it was a matter of tweaking this and that. I thought of playing the rim of the snare drum for the light hearted section, to go along with my jazzy clarinet played on the keys. My drumming in that section had it sound as if it was a tap dancer. Appel loved it. One take, while he was sitting right next to me in the open room. Just one mic near the rim.

Caro played his guitar through a box which had it sound like a violin. That was used for the slow, break part, just past 3/4 of the way through the piece.

I added too much reverb, abd did some compression maybe too much, to try to get a simulation live sound, (Experience, more than anything), to give the potential money backers a sense of what it WILL be like at a theater with a 35 piece orchestra.

MOst of the parts I did were just trying things, along with some direction form Appel and Caro. If we all laughed, during or after a short section or riff, or hook, then we knew it was a keeper. Sometimes, I would want to play it again, knowing I could nail it even better. We went to other tracks to do that, then premixing as we went. I did the engineering, for Caro had been really ill all that time, before and after. he taught me his gear a week before I meet Appel.

I also played real drums, which for one tune, was in one take, but which Appel wanted to add some extra crash hits on a few notes. I love playing the drums more the keys or guitar. Now practicing Buddy Rich techniques, to keep my heart a pumping! FUN anyway!

Thanks again!!!! Tis my love!


How does a guy Like Mike Appel whose name alone is pretty big, after all, he produced Born To Run, not have top people in the industry working for him?

I mean he still is a pal of The Boss, you would think hed have connections. And I heard some of his songs from his site he's got some good tunes.

Not taking anything away from you guys sub and yourself, but why isnt he working with brand names? Sometimes the name is everything

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/19/19 01:43 PM.
#1151028 - 02/19/19 08:18 PM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: Aug 2007
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Martin Lide Online content
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Martin Lide  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2007
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I dont know anything about this kind of music.
It is lovely to listen to and impressive.

#1151075 - 02/21/19 01:02 AM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Martin Lide]  
Joined: Jan 2001
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Johnny Daubert Offline
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
New Jersey, USA
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
I dont know anything about this kind of music.
It is lovely to listen to and impressive.


Thank you very much, Martin! It's basically just music in general, so you "do" know about it, especially if you enjoyed it. Thank you again, Martin!


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1151076 - 02/21/19 01:19 AM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Johnny Daubert Offline
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
New Jersey, USA
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio



How does a guy Like Mike Appel whose name alone is pretty big, after all, he produced Born To Run, not have top people in the industry working for him?

I mean he still is a pal of The Boss, you would think hed have connections. And I heard some of his songs from his site he's got some good tunes.

Not taking anything away from you guys sub and yourself, but why isnt he working with brand names? Sometimes the name is everything[/quote]
------------------

1st question: His court case with Bruce in 1975 must have put a caution flag up, since the judge made some non flattering comments. he then went into other business, one being a trucking/recycling business in New York City. Mike Caro, also living in Staten Island, and was a Clive Davis find, (with soon after a number one dance hit in billboard in the band formed around Mike and the lead female singer, The Daou), Appel would know of Caro's talents. he looked him when wanting to pay down some demos, while nearing the end of his trucking business involvement. Appel LOVED what Mike Caro could do, being a one man band for his demos.

2nd point your brought up: As Appel and Bruce do go out sometimes with the wives, and/or for functions or award shows, their working relationship of all types ended with the court case in 1975. No business to be had between them since.

3rd question: No prob taking anything away from me, but don't do that for Sub. He is a Giant in the NOT-Mainstream known musicians/producers/engineers, believe me! He is quite the known everything in Staten Island, and for a time, as a Clive Davis find, very talked about in the Sony Studios in NYC, where he did session work for Michael Jackson, Celine Dion, Gloria Estevez, etc, before being put in that successful dance band with went to Europe, besides the US for shows. He does SO much. Real drums too, in the style of Stevie Wonder's music and style of playing drums. THAT good! the other question was answered, (the court case left a bad taste with some in the business, most likely.

Hope that clears things up,
Thanks,
John


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1151079 - 02/21/19 11:17 AM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: Oct 2017
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,396
Originally Posted by Johnny Daubert
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio



How does a guy Like Mike Appel whose name alone is pretty big, after all, he produced Born To Run, not have top people in the industry working for him?

I mean he still is a pal of The Boss, you would think hed have connections. And I heard some of his songs from his site he's got some good tunes.

Not taking anything away from you guys sub and yourself, but why isnt he working with brand names? Sometimes the name is everything

------------------

1st question: His court case with Bruce in 1975 must have put a caution flag up, since the judge made some non flattering comments. he then went into other business, one being a trucking/recycling business in New York City. Mike Caro, also living in Staten Island, and was a Clive Davis find, (with soon after a number one dance hit in billboard in the band formed around Mike and the lead female singer, The Daou), Appel would know of Caro's talents. he looked him when wanting to pay down some demos, while nearing the end of his trucking business involvement. Appel LOVED what Mike Caro could do, being a one man band for his demos.

2nd point your brought up: As Appel and Bruce do go out sometimes with the wives, and/or for functions or award shows, their working relationship of all types ended with the court case in 1975. No business to be had between them since.

3rd question: No prob taking anything away from me, but don't do that for Sub. He is a Giant in the NOT-Mainstream known musicians/producers/engineers, believe me! He is quite the known everything in Staten Island, and for a time, as a Clive Davis find, very talked about in the Sony Studios in NYC, where he did session work for Michael Jackson, Celine Dion, Gloria Estevez, etc, before being put in that successful dance band with went to Europe, besides the US for shows. He does SO much. Real drums too, in the style of Stevie Wonder's music and style of playing drums. THAT good! the other question was answered, (the court case left a bad taste with some in the business, most likely.

Hope that clears things up,
Thanks,
John
[/quote]

I did clarify I wasnt taking anything away from either of you. I have heard Mikes music and he is a great musician and songwriter. What Im saying is I could work with Mike or you too, if I wanted to pay for studio time. I couldn't do that with people in the industry.

While your first point does explain HOW it happened, it doesnt explain WHY, a name like that disappears

And its not a knock on anybody, I have known musicians who ran circles around famous ones but they live in tiny apartments and work full time jobs.

Its just once famous, youd think it be easier than never being famous.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/21/19 11:59 AM.
#1151088 - 02/21/19 03:38 PM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
Johnny Daubert Offline
Top 25 Poster
Johnny Daubert  Offline
Top 25 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
New Jersey, USA
Why? I already did explain Why. The 1975 court case. That put distance between the industry folks and Appel.

BTW, Caro and I played everything on the songs on Appel's site.

NEW MIX-Clarity: "Stage Door Johnny" Copyright Mike Appel. Original Songwriter; Mike Appel. Orchestration Composition and Arrangement, John Daubert and Mike Caro, Mike Appel. Produced by Mike Appel. Played on Keyboard by John Daubert. One Violin section, Mike Caro, plus Tom Toms
https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/player.cfm?songID=13594628


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1151098 - 02/22/19 11:57 AM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny Daubert
Why? I already did explain Why. The 1975 court case. That put distance between the industry folks and Appel.

BTW, Caro and I played everything on the songs on Appel's site.

NEW MIX-Clarity: "Stage Door Johnny" Copyright Mike Appel. Original Songwriter; Mike Appel. Orchestration Composition and Arrangement, John Daubert and Mike Caro, Mike Appel. Produced by Mike Appel. Played on Keyboard by John Daubert. One Violin section, Mike Caro, plus Tom Toms
https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/player.cfm?songID=13594628


Cool. i liked nothing on but the radio. Seems he wrote that before alot of others stole that title...

#1151102 - 02/22/19 02:25 PM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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New Jersey, USA
Titles aren't stolen, since titles aren't trademarked or owned by one person. You could write a unique song today and call it "Yesterday". it will just confuse many, who will say,,,,"HEY! That's NOT Yesterday"!!! lol ,,,,But, it would be YOUR "Yesterday".

The song on his site for the Musical songs for which I surprised Appel when jumping up and went to the drums in the main room, (to lay down a track in one take), was for "Manny's Music Store", then some weeks later, the more complex, (Gene Krupa style) song called, "Mussolini's All Star Band". He had said before I first went to the drums, that he needs to get a session drummer in tomorrow for "Manny's Music Store". I always jump at the chance to play anything I know I can at least be competitive for the track. When I play the keys for any instrument on any song, my head is instantly imagining all the instruments and what the percussion could be good for it all. (As if I'm hearing the new song in full before composed/recorded. I KNOW I am so fortunate and was given those music gifts form my mom and dad, and some family members before them, who for some, were in the Cherokee lands in South Carolina, then escaped the trail of tears to come up to Delaware, to blend in with the people there, as workers for families. (So the story goes form my Aunt Bert and Uncle Charlie, and their many pics to show their previous family members, (PERCUSSION in me, is my point). Maybe they passed down drumming genes! LOL. True though. I think anyone with any talents are so fortunate to have been GIVEN them, (genetic/DNA wise). Then, my father would always play music and tap on the furniture any beat when listening to the radio or music shows on TV. LUCKY ME! at 66 now, it has been GREAT fun and excitement to play anything at any given time, whether alone for me, or for others, anywhere. I was also lucky enough to have played The Spectrum in Philly on a Concert Grand to help open up a star attended benefit concert. Also got ot play with Chuck Berry and many oldie acts during 1973, being in the rock house band, Breakwater Bay, at Memories Of Margate, (NJ). Just by being there! LUCKY!!!!! fUN!!!

Ok, just one more coffee! LOL

Thank you, (anyone too), for reading some of my times which I treasure so much.

John


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1151411 - 03/06/19 01:56 PM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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New Jersey, USA
Update 3-6-19 Mastered "Stage Door Johnny"
https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/player.cfm?songID=13594628

Opinions requested as to being better than remembered.

Thank you very much! Please excuse my Tinnitus/Hyperacusis for the reason I need to limit what my ears/brain take in, and is why I can only hear so many songs or tracking a day. Is also why I am not sure about how I mix and master. (My Ringing is usually very loud and metallic like piercing. It has been measured at U of Penn as being off the charts. T

Your better detailed hearing and thoughts are much appreciated!

John


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1151420 - 03/06/19 11:04 PM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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E Swartz Online content
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E Swartz  Online Content
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Ohio
Johnny,

Just listened and enjoyed! Thanks, and appreciate your hard work, hope you guys can find success with your music composition. I have a similar project on my shelf that is getting heavy--I need more time/money!
steady-eddie

#1151423 - 03/07/19 12:56 AM Re: "Stage Door Johnny" - Daubert Orchestrated [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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New Jersey, USA
Thank you Eddie!

Success in the non business way has been accomplished many times. Success in the business way happened here and there in a very small way, but still enjoyed.

I am 66, with Tinnitus and Hyperacusis, so it is just me doing everything in a low volume way with my Mac and Logic Pro X (audio wav), and without trying to hunt down business people anymore. No money being spent now either, on traveling to gigs, studios, or for Ascap meetings in NYC. Just some of my Too Little Time left for Here There, but now not Everywhere, as I used to. Fun still, and I have been finding out that I have been getting better at playing, (right hand mainly now, due to recent Dupuytrens in my left hand. (Had my right fixed three times). I seem to compose complex arrangements much easier and faster. (usually one takes for each instrument while not knowing exactly what I am about to play). I have the great luck of also having Unipolar Mania for when Creativty hits me. That takes the thinking our of it all. The things I DO have think about is mixing and mastering, which I know I still suck at. I tend to keep increasing the power sounds more and more till it's like being in the front row with everything TOO massive. LOL I guess I make up for the loud ringing always going on in my head and near my middle ear areas. The more I hear on playback, the more I find I need to increase the output or master, to hear it all at the same volume I just did 3 minutes before! HATE when that happens! LOL

Anyway, excuse my rant there, and thank you again for your input! I hope your project finds the success you are aiming at.

John
"Stage Door Johnny:
https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/player.cfm?songID=13594628


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522






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