Who's Online Now
14 registered members (John W. Selleck, CTthomas, 9ne, couchgrouch, Songbird52, Martin Lide, Gary E. Andrews, niteshift, Dave Rice, 1 invisible), and 375 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Rick Heenan
Rick Heenan
Lockport NY, usa
Posts: 1,608
Joined: September 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Made in America, an oldie revised
by John W. Selleck. 07/12/20 01:00 AM
SHOWCASE: LYRICS/SONGS/ESSAYS BY GARY E. ANDREWS
by Gary E. Andrews. 07/11/20 10:11 PM
So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?
by John W. Selleck. 07/11/20 09:10 PM
Let's Agree to Disagree
by John W. Selleck. 07/11/20 06:50 PM
A part of me
by John W. Selleck. 07/11/20 06:05 PM
Edit: ALL Corona Virus Post MUST Go Here
by John Lawrence Schick. 07/11/20 05:42 PM
Any producer looking for a song/hook writer?
by Vicarn. 07/11/20 04:05 PM
Rare old times. Travis and Vic
by Vicarn. 07/11/20 01:34 PM
This Far Before
by 9ne. 07/11/20 09:46 AM
Publishing Adm Services
by John W. Selleck. 07/11/20 12:30 AM
This body that I see
by John W. Selleck. 07/10/20 06:31 PM
SPF 15
by Fdemetrio. 07/10/20 01:20 PM
Can't Make You Love Me
by Songbird52. 07/10/20 10:25 AM
The Lord Your God
by swestern. 07/10/20 08:15 AM
New York City Cowboy
by Two Singers. 07/10/20 12:42 AM
Angels?
by Vicarn. 07/09/20 07:39 AM
A Daydream Night
by Fdemetrio. 07/08/20 09:42 PM
I Can’t Wait To Fall Asleep Tonight
by CTthomas. 07/08/20 08:40 PM
Eternal Twilight
by Two Singers. 07/08/20 07:42 PM
White Trash Diaper Rash (video)
by Martin Lide. 07/08/20 07:39 PM
You Shine // just added Ourstage link
by John W. Selleck. 07/08/20 06:23 PM
Natural Melodies?
by John W. Selleck. 07/08/20 05:42 PM
URIAH KEENE( Rewrite 3)
by Travis david. 07/08/20 04:25 PM
Wisdom's Jungle Wilderness 3
by Perry Neal Crawford. 07/08/20 03:34 PM
Wisdom's Jungle Wilderness 2
by Perry Neal Crawford. 07/08/20 02:45 PM
Rose. Lyric update.
by Vicarn. 07/08/20 05:46 AM
For My Hero John Prine
by Steve Altonian. 07/08/20 03:55 AM
Watching From The Sidelines
by Roy Cooper. 07/08/20 03:15 AM
I've Got Her Right Where She Wants Me
by John W. Selleck. 07/07/20 09:57 PM
Spread Your Wings & Fly
by Steve Altonian. 07/07/20 08:59 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,834
Travis david 11,883
Kevin Emmrich 10,657
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,637
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,845
glynda 8,677
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,909
couchgrouch 7,781
Dave Rice 7,710
Corey 7,357
Mark Kaufman 6,584
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Vicarn 6,576
ben willis 6,107
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
niteshift 5,682
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,666
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,376
Roy Cooper 4,240
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,104
nightengale 4,096
MFB III 3,926
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,814
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,580
E Swartz 3,485
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,842
MidniteBob 2,712
Nelson 2,603
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Fdemetrio 2,379
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,219
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,027
maccharles 1,988
DukeWill 1,988
floyd jane 1,985
Martin Lide 1,959
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,650
Noel Downs 1,620
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
GocartMoz 1,552
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,473
RogerS 1,471
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
Deej56 1,298
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Glen King 1,214
Gerry 1,210
IdeaGuy 1,209
lane1777 1,177
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,167
Diane Ewing 1,158
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
IronKnee 1,008
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
90 dB 942
9ne 923
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
ant 747
Andy K 746
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 734
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Irwin 666
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
Pat Hardy 637
quality 637
Moosesong 636
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
JAPOV 563
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
R&M 525
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
ckiphen 378
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#1143756 - 08/11/18 06:22 PM "Middle Class of Musicians"  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,610
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 10 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,610
So I just came back from "Writing A Song That Matters", hosted by one on my favourite singer songwriters, Dar Williams
If you do not know here, you are losing out on one of America's best folk\pop artists full stop. Youtube and Google here for more info

It was a song writing retreat at The Garrison Insitute, on the Huson River across from West Point and included workshops by Suzze Roche, Heather Maloney, Raquel Vidal and Rick and Michelle Gerner.

Spent some time talking to Heather because I had no knowledge of her. She is actually living Brian's mantra about being able to live a good life with a critical mass fan base in centers across the country

She referred to a growing middle class of artist who can thrive in this day and age with "quality fans"and there are growing networks of these artists as they collaborate on various causes, interests and business matters

As I understand, "quality fans" are."sticky fans" who connnect and stay with an artist....as opposed to days when large record companies and AMAs ran stables of artists and mass marketed physical media and hoping they could bat some home runs among singles and doubles and strikeouts

So artists can dramatically lower media\content creation and duplication and connect to quality fans via internet

What I also heard was that there are growing networks of these artists collaborating, and it is a community one can only join as you emerge into visibility as an artist

Guess that means if you have a song to sing, just go out and play it, collaborate with other local musicans, grow as an artist, and keep going out to play. If you are any good, there are a growing number of people you will bump into locally, regionally, and nationally if you beging gigging around

So if you have a song to sing, just go out and play it.


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1143762 - 08/11/18 11:23 PM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,379
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,379
One of my observations and / or complaints was that music doesn't have a medium wage, or a middle class.

You either made it or you didn't. The Internet has changed that somewhat. You don't need a record label any more, and record labels were notorious for taking everything an artist made anyway.

There are middle class singer songwriters now, but they are still rare and still brand names, in their own circles.

You can't do anything without a name. All the internet really does is your advertising. You won't sell downloads or CDs, that ship has sailed, but there are still artists who can fill small clubs and make a living.

I can name 5 who are doing it right here in nj, but they have credits, and bios that you wouldn't believe. Stars? No way, but they have enough name to fill a club. Then they can use social media to say where they are playing.

So I guess, instead of the usual 100-200 per gig, if your lucky, you could make 500 to 1000 maybe 2000 a night, which might pay the rent if you are constantly playing.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/11/18 11:24 PM.
#1143765 - 08/12/18 07:16 AM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,810
Everett Adams Online content
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,810
,NL Canada
This doesn't help a great songwriter if he/she is not a performer. I know of people that are making a go of music who are not great singers and their songs are nothing to write home about. So what do they have going for them. Maybe it's their personality, who knows.

#1143792 - 08/12/18 07:52 PM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,379
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,379
It doesn't help most performing songwriters either.

Sometimes artists are very good entertainers. I know a guy who plays at this biker bar. I mean every time I drive by I see his name on the sign that he's playing there, must have been ther 5 years consistently.

Is he great? No, I think I can out play him and out sing him, and probably have better songs, and I'm just decent all around.

But he manages to get consistent work.

You know what he does well? He's great behind the mic. He engages the people and brings them into the conversation. He'll ask questions of audience members, he'll tell jokes, do a magic trick, anything he can do to make an experience for the audience.

It's a great skil to have. In the end that's what people want, to be entertained, they ain't there to praise you, they want u to praise them

But it's as tough as ever for non performing artists

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/12/18 07:54 PM.
#1143801 - 08/13/18 09:50 AM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,610
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 10 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,610
Great point Fdemetrio.

Engaging and building a rapport with the audience is critical. People have to like you as a person, even as they do not know you personally

Our own Bob Young used to make that point...along with "always play to the back row"....for sonic reasons and to include everyone in the room.

The patter in between songs is also not something that is spontaneous...it is planned out, which each song getting an introduction that is rehearsed. Not necessarily the same every time..

Artists employ stylists to build\enforce their look too. It is part of the image you create in your fans.

So lots goes into the stage personna

Note this all comes from observation and learning about these things. I am not a serious, professional entertainer. I\we do church and charity gigs and try to scope out the whole set, intros and all. So I have definitely used some of these tips in performances


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1143802 - 08/13/18 11:36 AM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,416
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,416
PA
I don't know where I fit in all this. I've been told I have no class at all.

John smile

#1143826 - 08/13/18 05:54 PM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,610
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 10 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,610
So you're saying it it were'nt for no class you'd have no class at all?


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1144079 - 08/22/18 01:31 AM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,028
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,028
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
So I just came back from "Writing A Song That Matters", hosted by one on my favourite singer songwriters, Dar Williams
If you do not know here, you are losing out on one of America's best folk\pop artists full stop. Youtube and Google here for more info

It was a song writing retreat at The Garrison Insitute, on the Huson River across from West Point and included workshops by Suzze Roche, Heather Maloney, Raquel Vidal and Rick and Michelle Gerner.

Spent some time talking to Heather because I had no knowledge of her. She is actually living Brian's mantra about being able to live a good life with a critical mass fan base in centers across the country

She referred to a growing middle class of artist who can thrive in this day and age with "quality fans"and there are growing networks of these artists as they collaborate on various causes, interests and business matters

As I understand, "quality fans" are."sticky fans" who connnect and stay with an artist....as opposed to days when large record companies and AMAs ran stables of artists and mass marketed physical media and hoping they could bat some home runs among singles and doubles and strikeouts

So artists can dramatically lower media\content creation and duplication and connect to quality fans via internet

What I also heard was that there are growing networks of these artists collaborating, and it is a community one can only join as you emerge into visibility as an artist

Guess that means if you have a song to sing, just go out and play it, collaborate with other local musicans, grow as an artist, and keep going out to play. If you are any good, there are a growing number of people you will bump into locally, regionally, and nationally if you beging gigging around

So if you have a song to sing, just go out and play it.



Funny you say that about Heather because she, Roche and Williams are all JPF members. They are all excellent writers (as are the others you listed who I don't know as well) and they do, in fact, live many of the things I have long talked about, but though I have had a positive place in promoting those things, artists like them have successfully lived it and proven the theories in real life along with countless others I could begin to list here. One of my dreams within JPF was to help create, or better said to nurture a musician middle class. (I was involved in a start up in 2010 based on JPF, my 5000 Fan Theory and the goal of creating both a Career Ladder for musicians willing to put the work in and a middle class lifestyle for those who graduated. Then 3 massive strokes hit me and I had to bow out after working for years to design the courses, write a book, create climbable ladder rungs to measure and track success moving up and had gathered the financial support and technology support needed to make it all real... then I spent a year and a half in a daily fight for my life and it all scattered to the wind sadly. But there are people out there who did it on their own with a little nudge by me and at least I was able to have that positive affect on a variety of people across the spectrum of genres and age groups and career goals and talent levels. I sure wish I had the health and energy to jump back in it but we may have lost the war as the small opening that was there in 2010 is ever closing tighter and tighter for anyone in any type of middle class.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1146280 - 11/19/18 02:00 AM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 8
ryan_bryan Offline
Casual Observer
ryan_bryan  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 8
There's a concept called "1,000 True Fans".

Essentially, anyone needs "1,000 True Fans" to make a living off an art or hobby.

These are fans who would drive 200 miles to see you. If each one of them gives you $3/month - less than the price of a cup of coffee - you can make a living off your art.

That, I would say, is the "middle class" of music

#1146300 - 11/19/18 01:42 PM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: ryan_bryan]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,379
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,379
Originally Posted by ryan_bryan
There's a concept called "1,000 True Fans".

Essentially, anyone needs "1,000 True Fans" to make a living off an art or hobby.

These are fans who would drive 200 miles to see you. If each one of them gives you $3/month - less than the price of a cup of coffee - you can make a living off your art.

That, I would say, is the "middle class" of music


We all can find 1000 fans once, what most of us cant do is getting 1000 to see us every time we play, or buying our stuff.

I call real fans.... customers, that is essentially what they are.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 11/19/18 01:43 PM.
#1146307 - 11/19/18 05:30 PM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 370
Sue Rarick Offline
Top 500 Poster
Sue Rarick  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 370
Oak Grove, KY
There are still people and places that have middle class entertainers - Small casinos, bars, county fairs and town fairs. Are y'all going to get rich and have that fleet of jets ..........nope! Will you be able to buy that small home and raise a family ........yep! There are many folk around the world that make a good living performing. The key point to remember is it's entertaining that is important - a multi grammy winning friend of mine used to say you can suck to a remarkable degree as long as everyone is having a good time.




#1147127 - 12/16/18 11:23 PM Re: "Middle Class of Musicians" [Re: ryan_bryan]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,028
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,028
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by ryan_bryan
There's a concept called "1,000 True Fans".

Essentially, anyone needs "1,000 True Fans" to make a living off an art or hobby.

These are fans who would drive 200 miles to see you. If each one of them gives you $3/month - less than the price of a cup of coffee - you can make a living off your art.

That, I would say, is the "middle class" of music


Ryan, the guy who started the "1000 true fans" admitted publicly that I had the idea first by well over a decade and I had written published articles about it in music magazines as well as in our newsletter and on this website and message board and in real life face to face talks I did all over North America going back to the 80's. It was one of our members from this board Scott from Seattle who made him aware of my 5000 fan theory as well as the steps to achieving it I had been pitching for (at that point) more than 2 decades.

It's unfortunate if they are still pushing it as their idea, though I do recall that guy publishing an acknowledgement of that truth on his blog at the time he was made aware.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
CraigAllen, Styillz, Cloudrider, Autumn22, Scott_Smith
21280 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics120,529
Posts1,134,036
Members21,280
Average Posts Daily40
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
allnite50 (61), JR Geisler (2020), notoriousstyles (2020)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0