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#1146197 - 11/17/18 02:20 AM Hurt and I Cry. MZ .Deej &Travis. Radio Play  
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Travis david Offline
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This is a new version of the song sung and produced by Mike Zaneski credits me and Deej
Totally different from version one which Deej performed.
Alternative melody and an intro added
Travis


https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13807976


HURT AND I CRY (SAME AS YOU INSIDE)


Intro

She lies on her bed at home
 cuddling a toy she's had since a child.
 Why can't they leave me alone
   what have I done?
   Why can't i have someone?
v
Look at me, tell me what you see in my eyes
 is there laughter or pain?
Talk to me, don't turn your head away
been through all this time and again
c
I'm the same as you inside, hurt and I cry
here I am reaching out to you
As it Seems I'm forever on the outside
wipe away a tear and sigh another sigh
I'm the same as you inside, hurt and I cry
v
Someone to love me be my best friend
say all the things best friends say
No longer turn my head at cruel things said
just need someone to ask, you OK?
b
Words can be sweet and please the soul, 
words can be brutal and spear the heart.
words won't show the bruises they've made
but leave inward scars that time never fades
c
I'm the same as you inside, hurt and I cry
here I am reaching out to you
Seems I'm forever on the outside
wipe away a tear and sigh another sigh
I'm the same as you inside, hurt and I cry


Last edited by Travis david; 11/23/18 09:13 AM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146198 - 11/17/18 09:01 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi Travis. Mike's production is always good. My feeling is pretty much the same as before. I'm asking the same questions the character is...why doesn't she have friends? The lyric never says.

The first line says she's cuddling a toy she's had since a child. That implies she's no longer a child. If she's not, why is she cuddling a toy? Is the character an adult? Who is she? The lyric never says. Again, I'd recommend listening to Don't Laugh at Me. If I hadn't seen your other post, I'd have very little idea what this is about.

#1146199 - 11/17/18 09:26 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi Couch
Why doesn't she have friends? Why are people bullied? There's no apparent reasoning in many situations.
Cuddling a favourite toy or whatever is simply feeling secure with something familiar it's universal and needs no explanation really, age is'nt an issue here.
A Freudian attachement.
I appreciate your suggestions and i will have a listen to the song you mentioned
Cheers
Travis

Last edited by Travis david; 11/17/18 09:29 AM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146202 - 11/17/18 10:56 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi Travis, Dave and Mike:

I'm relying on a rapidly fading set of memory synapses... and I believe this one delivers the message quite well. I would have to go back and find your original co-write to make an "informed decision" but Zaneski always delivers knockout demos. Mr. Lekich's vocals work pretty well for me, too. Do you guys plan to change the title?

Thanks for sharing. ----Dave

B-T-W... I didn't answer your question about the beginning of the song. You might consider a higher key for the next version. Just a thought!

Last edited by Dave Rice; 11/17/18 10:59 AM. Reason: clarification
#1146205 - 11/17/18 11:29 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Here's a small suggestion, Travis. I'm not sure what Freudian is or if people think about that while listening to songs.

The line about how long she's had the toy doesn't need to be there. It adds nothing.

Something like this:

Kim's stuffed Tigger doesn't care
About the color of her skin

Or

...about her handicap

Or

That she likes Madea movies.

Whichever. It's your song. What I'm illustrating is what most Nashville mentors would say. Good luck with it.

#1146208 - 11/17/18 11:54 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Freudian.... per the ideas of Sigmund Freud the father of modern psychology. He felt most problems stemmed from childhood and those experiences shaped who the person becomes later on in life. it's often about sex.... and relationships with parents/mother. The phrase "Freudian Slip" is used when somebody mentions a sexual innuendo or something else, realizing it was in their mind, but shouldn't have said.

Again, im not sure why Couch started now, but I like the fact that he is offering his input.

For me more than the issue of why, is that it doesn't have much wallpaper.

A song is more than an idea, it has to be completed to get the idea across.



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 11/17/18 12:17 PM.
#1146210 - 11/17/18 01:06 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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In the intro, Mike sounds in tune but like he is at the bottom of his range. For me, its hard to sound completely "musical" at the bottom of my range. My vocal chords start clicking like a ratchet. That may (emphasis on may) be part of the issue.

#1146212 - 11/17/18 01:27 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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In the intro, Mike sounds in tune but like he is at the bottom of his range. For me, its hard to sound completely "musical" at the bottom of my range. My vocal chords start clicking like a ratchet. That may (emphasis on may) be part of the issue.

#1146215 - 11/17/18 02:22 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Strong message in there, unfortunately this problem happens way too often.
I liked the arrangement over all
Regards
Mimmo

#1146217 - 11/17/18 02:37 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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FD, I started offering the occasional critique when I began regularly posting songs here. You can read through a lyric in 30 seconds or less but if I want people to take four minutes to listen to mine, I should chime in once in a while. I knew what Freudian meant (a highly educated amount of B.S.), I just didn't know what it had to do with the song.

#1146218 - 11/17/18 03:01 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Yeah, im not sure what the childhood toy has to do with this either.

I wouldn't call Freud BS, I think we all turn into our parents.....

#1146219 - 11/17/18 03:18 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Any guy living in a hay hut with his five wives and pet sabertooth in 4000 BC could've figgered out what you said Freud came up with. smile

Back to the song...

Last edited by couchgrouch; 11/17/18 03:18 PM.
#1146222 - 11/17/18 03:34 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Hi folks,

Martin nailed the problem with the singing in the intro. Funny thing is I recorded the same melodic line an octave up but thought, "ramping up to higher vocals" was the way to go, but yeah, lacks oomph fo sho, so I made changes and sent John a further version. As always, I want my "clients" to be totally happy with my work.

I think the dilemma for a songwriter writing this kinda song is..what details are important and what are not.

When I read through John's lyric, I gathered his intention to be not so dissimilar to Diane Warren and Lady Gaga's intention, when they wrote the Oscar nominated song "'Til It Happens To You"*** --that being to simply hear the thoughts and feelings of a victim of..bullying..but how do we know that the Diane Warren song is about bullying? There's nothing explicitly mentioned about it?

The crux of the dilemma is that, if you give exacting details, some folks may turn off and not relate to it, whereas folks may have an easier time relating, if it is more vague like that--as is the case with the Diane Warren song.

The dilemma is also between "am I telling a story or am I trying to get a listener to relate to the person, the " I " of the song who is singing "I'm the same as you inside" ..?

We can certainly all agree that not all songs need the same recipe. Some need more details, others less?

Warren's intention seems to be to get others to feel "I understand it's hard to empathize until it happens to you."

I think more details works better if one's intention is to tell a story. John clearly isn't trying to do that. Like Warren, he is trying to get a listener inside the head of the singer, or better put, to get those who have empathy to feel compassion for victims of bullying. In neither song is there any explicit mention of bullying, but contextually, is that gonna be something not understood in either song?

Personally, I could relate to feelings of being bullied, as this is not something that only young girls can feel, and so when I listen and hear "I'm the same as you inside, I hurt and I cry" it feels authentic to my experience as well, and a lack of details about why the singer feels this way doesn't get in the way of that--in fact it might help me put myself in the singer's place. I simply relate to the chorus, wanting friends, feeling no different, yet sometimes feel abuse from others, sometimes real, sometimes imagined I suppose, as that's how life goes... I think of all the people in this world that carry their opinions as if they were dogma and push them onto others.

Bullying comes in many forms, and I'm glad the song doesn't try to be specific. Sometimes it can come in the form of someone who holds their opinion over someone as if it is the way, the truth, and the light..when in fact, it is just an opinion, perhaps with some pedigree, but an opinion, nonetheless..

Mike



*** "Til It Happens To You (Warren/Germanotta)
You tell me it gets better, it gets better in time
You say I'll pull myself together, pull it together
You'll be fine
Tell me what the hell do you know
What do you know
Tell me how the hell could you know
How could you know
'Til it happens to you, you don't know
How it feels
How it feels
'Til it happens to you, you won't know
It won't be real
No it won't be real
Won't know how it feels
You tell me hold your head up
Hold your head up and be strong
'Cause when you fall, you gotta get up
You gotta get up and move on
Tell me, how the hell could you talk
How could you talk?
'Cause until you walk where I walk
It's just all talk
'Til it happens to you, you don't know
How it feels
How it feels
'Til it happens to you, you won't know
It won't be real (how could you know?)
No it won't be real (how could you know?)
Won't know how I feel
'Til your world burns and crashes
'Til you're at the end, the end of your rope
'Til you're standing in my shoes, I don't wanna hear nothing from you
From you, from you, 'cause you don't know
'Til it happens to you, you don't know
How I feel
How I feel
How I feel
'Til it happens to you, you won't know
It won't be real (how could you know?)
No it won't be real (how could you know?)
Won't know how it feels
'Til it happens to you, happens to you
Happens to you
Happens to you, happens to you
Happens to you (how could you know?)

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 11/17/18 03:44 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1146224 - 11/17/18 04:43 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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The Dianne Warren conundrum. Who can solve it? Many years ago I told a guy his song could use a little pepper on it. Dianne Warren's oeuvre came up. I responded by saying Tyler Perry's made a lot of coin, too, but I wouldn't use him as a role model for quality. Turns out the guy loved Tyler Perry. Art is subjective.

Same with Gaga. She's got a song out now written by five guys that I consider a generic power ballad. It'll probably win an Oscar. If I used that lyric as a pattern for quality I would have to retroactively give one half of the lyrics ever posted here a good critique. Especially Martin's song from a few weeks back.

Alot of people like Dianne and alot don't. In my view, as bad a song as any of us may have written, she's bought herself a beach house with one that's worse. And good for her.

I stand by what I said, this lyric needs a little pepper. Either that or don a meat suit and do a red carpet nip slip to get yourself some Gaga level attention.

#1146225 - 11/17/18 05:03 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Well, im usually a pop snob, particularly modern pop, but I think Gaga is very talented. She's a hookster, not everybody can do what she does.

If I could make millions writing stuff like that, and people wanted to hear it, id do it too.

And i think we're all full of [naughty word removed]. If Gaga called any one of us, and asked to co write with us, we'd be singing her praises and boasting about the time we wrote with Lady gaga

Everything is perspective....

#1146226 - 11/17/18 05:16 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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I wouldn't. I've written with pros, (and turned down co-writes with pros) and never boasted about it. If she contacted me, I'd see it as a possible way to pay some bills and nothing more. It's not my style of music or living.

#1146227 - 11/17/18 05:20 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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That is what i said, you'd do it. It's all perspective, im not a fan of Gaga or Dianne Warren, but im not going to say they are not talented, cause they are. Warren has written some amazing melodies, her lyrics may be trite

It's just like online dissing. You have to wonder how many people run into star A or Star B somewhere, and ask for a selfie or autograph, meanwhile they were talking smack about them the day before on facebook

Music is music, you can find something positive about anything, if you are trying to. And Id write with Diane Warren any day

And i know you would too Couch.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 11/17/18 05:22 PM.
#1146230 - 11/17/18 06:03 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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I would for a guaranteed pay day, not for the experience. But Mike made his point and I made mine. the focus of the thread should return to Travis' song.

Edited to reword an unclear sentence.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 11/17/18 07:35 PM.
#1146231 - 11/17/18 07:21 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Uh-oh, one more comment. I'd forgotten what age we live in. I googled the Gaga song and up popped a video. The video
ITSELF has an intro telling you what you're about to see happens daily on college campuses. I guess the song and the video alone couldn't get that across. (I surmised it wasn't about freshmen getting nose-rings). The very expensive video then
depicts rape. As I should have suspected earlier, the video does the job the song should do.
Gaga has a great, great voice. Dull song, regardless of message. With all due respect to Mike's obvious wisdom, I stand by what I said.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 11/18/18 09:55 PM.
#1146232 - 11/17/18 08:17 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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It's late here in the UK. Gone midnight when honest songwriters should be snuggling up to their muse.
Not had time to read all comments but will do.
I've posted a new intro though
Regards
Travis


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146234 - 11/17/18 09:53 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Shucks, Travis:

This thread has turned out to be more entertaining than a three ring circus. Who told you there are "honest songwriters?" (We're all liars!) LOL! I'll send you a PM after I've listened to the new "intro!"

Cheers, ----Dave

#1146236 - 11/17/18 10:38 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi, all:

Mainly stopping in to congratulate Travis and Mike on a great rendition of this song. But a word on some of the dialogue above, which I think Mike Z. has expressed more articulately than I could have: "We can certainly all agree that not all songs need the same recipe." And what works for some, doesn't for others. Personally, I think the lyrics are emotionally connecting to anyone who's been made to feel different simply because of who they are--there's a commonality in that emotion regardless of the individual circumstance--and to make it more specific to any one difference risks broader appeal. And so, as Mike expresses well, the dilemma is how much detail. But I get others may not connect in the same way; opinions will differ--doesn't make either perspective more wrong or more right--just depends on whether the song satisfies and engages a listener. So we can debate it all we want, but it's like climbing mirrors (or "arrampicarsi sugli specchi" as the Italian expression goes). So let's move on.

Well, I guess that was more than a word. But as for the song, I'll be in the minority, I think I liked the original introduction just a tad better because I actually did like the ramping up to the higher vocals, but I get that it was challenging to execute. The revised version loses that, but it is much crisper vocally. On the "forever on the outside" line, I would have preferred the melody going down, rather than up, but that's just a personal choice, and the song loses nothing by going where you went with it. Everything else works perfectly.

Well done, gentleman. It's an affecting tune, pretty on the ears.

My best to all,

Deej

#1146240 - 11/18/18 12:29 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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John, Michael, All,

I didn't hear the original, so can't compare. I did spend a fair amount of time reading everyone's comments--I usually don't before commenting myself. I did listen first however, because I always like to listen before being influenced by other's comments. This time I went back and listened a 2nd time after reading all comments.

In regards to the comments as a whole, having different opinions is normal and cool, and I see merit in most of the above opinions for sure as well as Mike's explanation which did give me Travis's perspective along with his own in a more clear manner. I think what makes this forum valuable is when we do hear honest appraisals and opinions critical or constructive--but honestly, we ALL are biased in different areas of how best music composition and lyrics should/could enhance a new production or a song. Sometimes we are obstinate about our thoughts, and maybe rightly so, other times more "open" to how/what a lyric should do, how/what music is needed, or how vocals can best be expressed with a song production. There's NO one way, but sometimes a "dash" of someone's crits can make a huge positive difference--we ultimately each make our final decisions sometimes with the influence of others, sometimes sticking to our own gut or opinion--which makes us the artists we individually are! So I will give you my honest thoughts/ideas with my first impression of this song etc:

Many times a production isn't conveying the right "vibe" which is needed to support the lyrics, other times, which I think is more often the case, great lyrics get lost in a blase melody going nowhere but getting turned off. Our objective is to have listeners that do not have the advantage of reading our lyrics when listening to have our song's capture them both musically and lyrically to want to listen. As a listener myself, my first impression was this music and vocals sound very sweet........is that the best attitude for the song theme? I think yes and no. Maybe I'm saying something similar to Couch's need for "pepper," but instead of looking at the analysis of the literal lyrics, rather, looking more at the music and vocal attitude. I would like to see more back and forth emotion from slight anger, sadness, and hope. I think everything sounds perfect in the production yet maybe "too sweet" especially with the chorus--I like the intro's sweetness, then the verse's attitude begins to form--but the chorus IMO needs more edge especially conveying more of a contrary attitude with a little distraught vibe. l might consider no harmony with the first chorus, but keep it in the 2nd as I don't feel this song needs a strong identified hook, more of a building production?

This is a great production and Mike as we all know is a talented producer and singer--you both are shining here with great lyrics, a great production, and a great theme--I think you can tweak production and vocal attitude to add more vacillating emotion and drama. This subject matter needs that IMO, and that is what will keep a listener tuned in to a song with fairly deep lyrics. I really like the bridge melody by the way--effective, and the digression there is needed. A few polishing ideas/opinion, use, lose, or experiment with.

steady-eddie

#1146246 - 11/18/18 03:47 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Regarding Dave 's first comment;

Hi Dave
Thanks for dropping by Dave and also for the combined work from Deej and MZ on this .
I changed the title here for two reasons really.
The first was so it did'nt get confused with version one which Deej did such a great job on
Then in order to upload it to the BBC i needed another title as again not to confuse it with the Deej version they broacasted recently. Also they won't accept repeated titles in their system .
This i hope might get a radio play as well.
Regards
John

Last edited by Travis david; 11/18/18 03:48 AM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146248 - 11/18/18 04:36 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi Couch
Even though i wrote the lyric due to reading a story about a young girls facial disfigurement.
I did'nt want this, or indeed any dialogue which focust on a particular handicap. Or reasons for being bullied.
I don't think this is necessary.
I wanted to bring in the way she felt after the event.
Cheers
Travis


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146250 - 11/18/18 07:47 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Good production but I have to say that although the lyric has good points,
to me it seems to ramble from verse to chorus without saying anything that it hasn't been said in the first verse.
Then there are confusing lines:

Why can't they leave me alone
Why can't i have someone?
Talk to me, don't turn your head away.

Here I am reaching out to you. Who is the "you"?

It has a good base for a meaningful song but imho needs tightening up.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1146251 - 11/18/18 07:57 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Fdemetrio
Thanks for the listen and comments.
Much appreciated
Travis


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146252 - 11/18/18 08:03 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Thanks for your view Martin.
The only thing i felt about the intro was it was a bit sombre vocally.
Nothing wrong with Mikes singing it was me who saw it that way and it did'nt work out as some things don't
The re-recording sounds good and all concerned seem happier with it. Although Deej liked the original as well
Cheers
Travis

Last edited by Travis david; 11/18/18 08:03 AM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146253 - 11/18/18 08:14 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Thanks Mimmo for the thumbs up
John


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146261 - 11/18/18 10:06 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Thanks Mike.
Good to see you around the forum again.
Don't be a stranger
John


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146271 - 11/18/18 02:38 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: E Swartz]  
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Hi Eddie,

I thought you deserved a reply. I thought quite a lot about the tone of the song before attempting to sing it. I appreciate your take on the "tone" in the chorus, but I disagree and think I caught the right vibe there.

Since the song is about a girl who wants to be seen for who she is "on the inside" --the most important thing for her to convey, in her tone..which translates to "my delivery" --is a sense of who that person is, on the inside. Here's her big chance, you know? She's got everyone's attention, and apparently there's something about her, "on the outside" that turns some people off and makes others downright unfriendly. So I think she has become wise beyond her years from dealing with this, to get to this point where she can sum up her feelings in a song. She's figured out that if she wants people to see a "nice, sweet girl" which she feels like, on the inside, then it's her "voice," her mood, her tone, her delivery, along with her words of vulnerability there, that are going to make an impact and go a long way in helping folks see that she is this sweet girl, since her outside appearance may make it hard for some folks to approach her and others be downright mean. She is being the most vulnerable n the chorus, and saying "here I am, see the real me" --so it's the most important place in the song for her to be that sweet girl that she is, on the inside, and just maybe other folks will see she is nice and approachable, vulnerable yet brave to speak about these things. I save the drama for the bridge where it's appropriate, explicitly saying how words can spear the heart. That must illicit a passionate tone, to say the least, from her, and so I try to comply there.

I tried to avoid anything cloying, using John Lennon's "Imagine" as a template for the tone. Slightly melancholy but hopeful. In a word, perhaps, sweet. Lennon was imagining a better world and that's where his vocal lived; and so I wanted hers to live from that inner place she wanted to make others see.

EDIT: Eddie! I wanted to mention, also, that I really appreciate your "tone" when you critique. You can be critical, yes, but you manage to do it in a way that always still feels supportive and friendly.

Anyway, I hope all is well with you. smile

Mike





Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 11/18/18 04:53 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1146275 - 11/18/18 07:55 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi Michael,

It is so good seeing you respond, really, I was hoping you would because I wanted to hear your reaction and where your head was and why with the production choices. I get it from your perspective, and I'm in no way saying you're are wrong with your canvas. I was only pointing out how "I" thought the canvas could have more diversity with less singular human emotions to enhance both listener's interest and create more drama. I thought there was too much sugar for my cup of tea.........but my cup of tea is only one of many. Also, my inference was that this girl was "bullied," not knowing the real story that John brought forth after my post, so I was really reacting to my perceived inference of a story about a girl being bullied -- and those kids that are bullied probably have vacillating emotions--and drama is good for a song just like a movie.

Those of us that produce would "never" agree on everything anyway would we? I'm still wet behind the ears compared to your skills, but I'll always state my opinions.........well not always, sometimes its best just to keep your mouth shut too! One thing for sure, I'm more apt to comment in detail about what I perceive "good stuff" and my remarks are only opinion with the idea that you "may" want to consider.

It is indeed a good write and a "sweet" production--pun intended! When it comes to lyrics, there can always be a polishing process that can never end........

Best to you and Travis,

steady-eddie

Last edited by E Swartz; 11/19/18 05:42 PM.
#1146281 - 11/19/18 02:18 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi Ed
I always appreciate your comments.
The only thing i wasn't quite happy with on first hearing was the intro.
This was set up as an addition to Deej' version( which i thought was excellent)
Eventually i asked Mike could he do a retake on the intro as it sounded a bit solemn.
The new version to me really fit and set up the first verse well.
Mike's vocal and intonation was how i visualised the song right from the start .
As the client, i am extremeley happy with the song.
But of course my views are subjective as i've come to acknowledge from some comments.
I think Mike achieved the right balance he was aiming for. It was equally good to see him back on the forum again.
Just my two penny worth Ed.
If nothing else the song has sparked a lot of controversy lol
Regards
John


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146283 - 11/19/18 02:54 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hello Vic

Why can't they leave me alone
Why can't i have someone?
Talk to me, don't turn your head away.

Here I am reaching out to you. Who is the "you"?

Your comments answered;
First line she has got to the stage where she believes there's no hope, desperately lonely from cruel jibes.

Second line if only she had a friend a special someone who she could love and be loved

Third line reaching out emotionally in the hope that someone can understand there's more to a person than what they see on the outside

You? Me,all everyone. I'm the same as you inside.

I don't necessarily agree that it rambles without saying anything different.
Definately an engaging issue and not easy to get the right balance when trying to understand what's going through someone's mind . When emotions are awry
Cheers
Vic


Last edited by Travis david; 11/19/18 05:37 AM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146284 - 11/19/18 05:37 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Hi guys,


I really enjoyed THIS LINE.......words won't show the bruises they've made

Good team work, and what a velvet voice.



Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart

#1146285 - 11/19/18 06:29 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Thanks Travis.
I understand your explanation and get the underlying message in the song. It would be great if you could explain all that in the song itself.

I feel I just needs a little more glue and less cliché to knit the lines together and make the important message stronger.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1146287 - 11/19/18 07:36 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Cheers Calvin thanks for lending an ear
Travis


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146289 - 11/19/18 09:43 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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cliche's? Unaware of them although-
The bridge for instance seems to be turning into a cliche. I wrote those words or very similar a few years ago and they turn up on the internet in various forms as Anon or even one person saying"i think Ed Sherrin wrote that in one of his songs?"
I wish he had then he'd be looking at a futher plagiarism accusation- if i had any money to chase it. Sadly i don't so i'll ignore it.
John


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146293 - 11/19/18 11:45 AM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Nice song! A mix suggestion:

The first "hurt and I cry" vocal is too loud. Jumps out but not in a good way.

The song is really well done. I like the chorus and the message comes across strong.

Seems like you guys have pretty much wrapped this one up. Sounds finished to me anyway.

Ricky

#1146294 - 11/19/18 12:06 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Uh-oh, one more comment. I'd forgotten what age we live in. I googled the Gaga song and up popped a video. The video
ITSELF has an intro telling you what you're about to see happens daily on college campuses. I guess the song and the video alone couldn't get that across. (I surmised it wasn't about freshmen getting nose-rings). The very expensive video then
depicts rape. As I should have suspected earlier, the video does the job the song should do.
Gaga has a great, great voice. Dull song, regardless of message. With all due respect to Mike's obvious wisdom, I stand by what I said.


Maybe when you have a global audience and everyone is on to your every move, you dont need to write as if nobody knows who you are....

The fame implies alot. if the artist is known for certain topics, it's alot easier to surmise what their song is about.

With Bob Dylan, I never knew/know what the hell he's talking about. But you know when it's Dylan he's saying something important

She's got more than a great voice, there are thousands of singers who sing better.

Her main expertise is her ability to hook a listener. Be it with rhythm, be it with melody, be it with subject matter, be it with dance.

She's got much knowledge of music, can even hang with Tony Bennet on torch songs.

if you are not able to seperate what you like, from what is good and bad, these kind of arguments will go on forever.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 11/19/18 12:33 PM.
#1146296 - 11/19/18 12:45 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Uh-oh, one more comment. I'd forgotten what age we live in. I googled the Gaga song and up popped a video. The video
ITSELF has an intro telling you what you're about to see happens daily on college campuses. I guess the song and the video alone couldn't get that across. (I surmised it wasn't about freshmen getting nose-rings). The very expensive video then
depicts rape. As I should have suspected earlier, the video does the job the song should do.
Gaga has a great, great voice. Dull song, regardless of message. With all due respect to Mike's obvious wisdom, I stand by what I said.


Maybe when you have a global audience and everyone is on to your every move, you dont need to write as if nobody knows who you are....

The fame implies alot. if the artist is known for certain topics, it's alot easier to surmise what their song is about.

With Bob Dylan, I never knew/know what the hell he's talking about. But you know when it's Dylan he's saying something important

She's got more than a great voice, there are thousands of singers who sing better.

Her main expertise is her ability to hook a listener. Be it with rhythm, be it with melody, be it with subject matter, be it with dance.

She's got much knowledge of music, can even hang with Tony Bennet on torch songs.

if you are not able to seperate what you like, from what is good and bad, these kind of arguments will go on forever.



Very well stated.

Only exception I take is that I think some of Dylan's lyrics are just drugged up nonsense.

Last edited by Martin Lide; 11/19/18 12:46 PM.
#1146297 - 11/19/18 01:15 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Cheers Ricky i'm sure Mike will be along at some point to comment on the technical bits
Thanks for the listen
Travis


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146298 - 11/19/18 01:18 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Fdemetrio & Martin
I'm sure you're both right.
Regards
Travis

Last edited by Travis david; 11/19/18 01:19 PM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1146299 - 11/19/18 01:39 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Uh-oh, one more comment. I'd forgotten what age we live in. I googled the Gaga song and up popped a video. The video
ITSELF has an intro telling you what you're about to see happens daily on college campuses. I guess the song and the video alone couldn't get that across. (I surmised it wasn't about freshmen getting nose-rings). The very expensive video then
depicts rape. As I should have suspected earlier, the video does the job the song should do.
Gaga has a great, great voice. Dull song, regardless of message. With all due respect to Mike's obvious wisdom, I stand by what I said.


Maybe when you have a global audience and everyone is on to your every move, you dont need to write as if nobody knows who you are....

The fame implies alot. if the artist is known for certain topics, it's alot easier to surmise what their song is about.

With Bob Dylan, I never knew/know what the hell he's talking about. But you know when it's Dylan he's saying something important

She's got more than a great voice, there are thousands of singers who sing better.

Her main expertise is her ability to hook a listener. Be it with rhythm, be it with melody, be it with subject matter, be it with dance.

She's got much knowledge of music, can even hang with Tony Bennet on torch songs.

if you are not able to seperate what you like, from what is good and bad, these kind of arguments will go on forever.



Very well stated.

Only exception I take is that I think some of Dylan's lyrics are just drugged up nonsense.


True. But what Couch said about needing to read what was the video was about etc...

There is nobody past or present who could decipher Like a Rolling Stone, without somebody prefacing it, or somebody afterwards dissecting it.

So it seems even some of the best songwriters had their reputation preceeding them, in their songs.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 11/19/18 01:40 PM.
#1146302 - 11/19/18 04:21 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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Martin Lide  Online Content
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Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Travis david
Fdemetrio & Martin
I'm sure you're both right.
Regards
Travis


We both have an opinion and agreed this time. As far as, right? Dunno.

#1146305 - 11/19/18 04:43 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Martin Lide]  
Joined: Oct 2017
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Travis david
Fdemetrio & Martin
I'm sure you're both right.
Regards
Travis


We both have an opinion and agreed this time. As far as, right? Dunno.


it's not hard to agree provided you think like I do.....LOL

#1146306 - 11/19/18 05:12 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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couchgrouch  Online Content
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cochise, az, usa
Look, I think the lyric has problems. Should I have said nothing? Apparently. The opening lines have a grammatical error. If you say..

I've had that mitt since I was seven.

It means you're no longer seven.

If you say...

I've had that Chevy since I was young.

You're no longer young.

If you say ...

She's had that toy since she was a child

She's no longer a child.

Everyone thinks it doesn't need any detail because of Gaga's
Song and its million dollar video. You have my blessing.


I know little about Gaga. Here's what her very expensive publicist has chosen to reveal. (That I recall)

1. I saw a picture of her tits in Rolling Stone.

2. Countless articles about her goofy attire, which I don't care about.

3. Articles about her social agenda, which I don't care about.

4. She's in the third remake of A Star is Born.

I heard the song from the movie. Streisand's Evergreen is superior. Far superior. In my opinion.

I heard about a minute of the song Mike cited while watching the video. To me, they were both extremely weak in
every sense. They were so weak, in fact, it made wonder why, if she cared so much about her cause, she didn't produce something better?

I guess it doesn't matter...she's a hookster. And good for her.
Also, once you hit it big and your fame precedes you, you don't have to try as hard. Which is why She Loves You is a way better song than Hey Jude.

Why Dylan was brought up, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure when Peter, Paul and Mary sang Blowing in the Wind in 1963,
they didn't need an expensive video with a written intro to explain it.


Like a Rolling Stone is a put down of a spoiled rich girl who lost her social standing. There's no intro to that song on Highway 61 Revisited or on any of the live performances from that era. Not that I know of, anyway. Here's his intro from the Manchester Free Trade Center in 66...


Play fuckin loud!!!

Last edited by couchgrouch; 11/19/18 05:28 PM.
#1146308 - 11/19/18 05:38 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: couchgrouch]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,180
Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Look, I think the lyric has problems. Should I have said nothing? Apparently. The opening lines have a grammatical error. If you say..

I've had that mitt since I was seven.

It means you're no longer seven.

If you say...

I've had that Chevy since I was young.

You're no longer young.

If you say ...

She's had that toy since she was a child

She's no longer a child.

Everyone thinks it doesn't need any detail because of Gaga's
Song and its million dollar video. You have my blessing.


I know little about Gaga. Here's what her very expensive publicist has chosen to reveal. (That I recall)

1. I saw a picture of her tits in Rolling Stone.

2. Countless articles about her goofy attire, which I don't care about.

3. Articles about her social agenda, which I don't care about.

4. She's in the third remake of A Star is Born.

I heard the song from the movie. Streisand's Evergreen is superior. Far superior. In my opinion.

I heard about a minute of the song Mike cited while watching the video. To me, they were both extremely weak in
every sense. They were so weak, in fact, it made wonder why, if she cared so much about her cause, she didn't produce something better?

I guess it doesn't matter...she's a hookster. And good for her.
Also, once you hit it big and your fame precedes you, you don't have to try as hard. Which is why She Loves You is a way better song than Hey Jude.

Why Dylan was brought up, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure when Peter, Paul and Mary sang Blowing in the Wind in 1963,
they didn't need an expensive video with a written intro to explain it.


Like a Rolling Stone is a put down of a spoiled rich girl. There's no intro to that song on Highway 61 Revisited or on any of the live performances from that era. Not that I know of, anyway. Here's his intro from the Manchester Free Trade Center in 66...


Play fuckin loud!!!


Couch, does the word Spin mean anything to you?

What doesn't matter? That she doesn't write pop songs the way you think they should be written? You think she might have an idea about how to be a successful songwriter?

It's much like telling a successful pitcher that he's throwing the ball wrong. He's winning games. Now will he go down as one the great pitchers of all time? No, neither will Gaga be one of the great songwriters of all time. But she is effective. Im not sure how you can argue that she is great at what she does...regardless if u like what she does.

When it comes to the lady gaga area of pop music, would you tell me who is better? Or Taylor Swift, for that matter. Again, not the greats of all time, but great at what THEY do.

#1146312 - 11/19/18 05:51 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,180
Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,180

#1146313 - 11/19/18 06:00 PM Re: Hurt and I Cry. MZ vocal/production. Deej &Travis [Re: Travis david]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,525
couchgrouch Online content
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couchgrouch  Online Content
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,525
cochise, az, usa
I have nothing against Lady Gaga. At all. That was never my point. My point is, was, and will be, unless Travis and DJ can afford a million dollar video to explain their song, they oughtta put a smidge of detail in there.

And frankly, even if they can afford the video, that's no excuse to slack on the songwriting end.

This is a preposterous discussion. 99% of pluggers and publishers in Nashville would say the same thing, regardless of what meat-suit Lady Gaga and Dianne Warren do.

People often ask why I don't critique. This is why.


Ps I don't deny Gaga is effective. I spent a solid ten seconds looking at her pic in RS.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 11/19/18 06:30 PM.
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