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Loss
by Ricki E. Bellos. 12/07/19 03:04 PM
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Mexico
by MFB III. 12/06/19 12:44 AM
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#1144441 - 09/04/18 01:37 PM
In France
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Gavin Sinclair
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I think I still have some work to do on this, so I'd really appreciate comments and suggestions. Click to listen at SoundCloudIN FRANCE Through a gap in the shutters the morning sun On her dress thrown over a chair She opens her eyes with a sleepy smile He strokes her long brown hair The curve of hips, a touch of lips "Je t'aime," she softly says "Je t'aime aussi," he whispers. She lays her head on his chest For as long as he can he holds her close to his breaking heart Too soon he feels her slipping away And he opens his eyes to the woman lying beside him Thousands of miles away Half-drawn blinds, the dying day Together, but so far apart He wants to speak, but what can he say To reach out and touch her heart He gets up from the couch, opens the door She doesn't look up from her phone He stands on the porch in the warm night air Eyes closed, no longer alone As, just for a moment, he holds her in his longing arms Gently he takes her by the hand Through the sleepy streets to a cafe down by the river In that dimly remembered far off land BRIDGE These days she's not the kind to want much in the way Of his hugs or affectionate words But this house they haunt, never touching Is the loneliest place in the world So, just for a moment, he holds her in his longing arms Gently he takes her by the hand Through the sleepy streets to a cafe down by the river In that dimly remembered far off land
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#1144470 - 09/05/18 11:09 PM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,095
Deej56
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Gavin,
I'd like to think a careful reading of the lyrics reveals the story quite well (assuming I'm reading it right). But to Vic's comment, the melody doesn't quite pull in the listener. The first verse (and those that follow) work well, but, for me; I get lost in what I think is the chorus (beginning "For as long as")--there's a lot melodically that works, but it doesn't flow for me. So a tighter, stronger melody there--a bit of tweaking, could take this up a notch.
All that said, really like your vocal here--fits the mood really well. And the melodic lift on the lines like "he holds her in her longing arms" is magnetic. . . which you hit on couple of different lines. And the contrast between the first verse (gap in the shutters) and the second (half-drawn blinds) is well done.
Keep with this one, Gavin . . . it has a raw, attractive honesty and sincerity that resonates. I will anxiously await the next version!
All the best,
Deej
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#1144475 - 09/06/18 07:41 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: May 2017
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Gavin Sinclair
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Thanks for your honest feedback, Vic and Deej. It's exactly what I need. As I said in the original post, I still have a lot of work to do on this one.
Vic, point taken about the arrangement. I'm still figuring out where to go with that - a more lush arrangement with strings and maybe a little more ornate piano or stick with stark and bare. Or build from the latter to the former. As for the melody, this song was unusual for me in that the lyric definitely came first, rather than at the same time as the melody. It probably shows. Deej, I actually thought the chorus was the stronger part and was going to work on the verse. Your comment makes me wonder.
I'm glad you managed to figure out the lyrics (assuming you didn't conclude that it was about an alien invasion or a searing indictment of the government of Montenegro). I like songs that give you that enjoyable aha moment, but not if it works the listener too hard.
Thanks, guys.
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#1144485 - 09/07/18 07:33 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Gavin Sinclair
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Thanks, Martin. Obviously, Vic and Deej are just that little bit smarter than Dave and you  (Unless they're just pretending to get it to look cleverer than they are). OK, I'll spill the haricots. The scenes in France are memories that his mind focuses on as an escape from reality. Opening his eyes in the first chorus and closing them at the end of the second verse are supposed to convey that transition. The listener can choose who the woman is in those memories, but what I had in mind was an earlier version of their relationship. France is a metaphor for a happier past. Now, for next week, write a two page essay on the use of metaphor and symbolism in Gavin Sinclair's "In France." Avoid swearwords and terms such as "pretentious" and "dumb." Extra credit for writing it in French. Unless you are French, in which case, extra credit for writing it in Portuguese.
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#1144502 - 09/07/18 02:56 PM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,603
Martin Lide
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Thanks, Martin. Obviously, Vic and Deej are just that little bit smarter than Dave and you  (Unless they're just pretending to get it to look cleverer than they are). OK, I'll spill the haricots. The scenes in France are memories that his mind focuses on as an escape from reality. Opening his eyes in the first chorus and closing them at the end of the second verse are supposed to convey that transition. The listener can choose who the woman is in those memories, but what I had in mind was an earlier version of their relationship. France is a metaphor for a happier past. Now, for next week, write a two page essay on the use of metaphor and symbolism in Gavin Sinclair's "In France." Avoid swearwords and terms such as "pretentious" and "dumb." Extra credit for writing it in French. Unless you are French, in which case, extra credit for writing it in Portuguese. Gavin An old Houston mayor once said..."the more you have to explain a deal, the worse it probably is."  I think that applies to song's too. I live according to the 19 year old girl doing her clothes in the laundromat across the street from her trailer park. If a song is on the radio in the background and she is listening along and has stop and think about something...that something should have been fixed. We're all different. Martin 
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#1144527 - 09/08/18 09:51 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: May 2017
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Gavin Sinclair
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Thanks for listening and commenting, Niteshift. Regarding the pitch issues - you should have heard this before I sprinkled Melodyne on it! Or rather , you shouldn't LOL. I'm sure you're right, and there are still pitch problems. Did you have a particular part or parts in mind? The first line of the chorus, where the voice rises is an obvious spot. It could actually be sung a whole octave lower, but that might tend to flatten out the melody. Deej described the vocals in that line as "magnetic." Of course, magnets can repel as well as attract  I'm not so sure I agree with the need for a hook, probably because I'm not sure that it is a folk song in the normal way. I spent quite a lot of my younger days in French and German speaking countries and the influence for this kind of song comes from the "chansonneurs" and "Liedermacher" I heard then, people like Yves Duteil and especially Reinhard Mey. Their songs were all about painting pictures and telling stories, usually in a conversational, almost intimate style.There is a very understated hook in the repetition of the second chorus and especially the last line "in that dimly remembered far off land.' Maybe "A Far Off Land" should be the title. I had expected people to comment that the title wasn't even in the song, which is usually a bit of a no-no. I really appreciate all the comments and help I have had with this one. The comments here and at another forum I belong to have been all over the map - some like the tune, others think its not strong enough, some get the meaning straight away, others are mystified, some like the spare arrangement, others think it doesn't hold the listener. A lot to think about. Thanks everyone.
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#1144541 - 09/09/18 04:47 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 237
Cheyenne
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HI GAVIN
Dave Rice does a decent critique of what you have so far
Best Of Luck With It
You could also write this song in First Person Narrative it's so
much stronger when the singer is involved in the romance or action
Incidentally I am reading this in France at this time , in a country villa
Far From The Madding Crowd
Just one other thing the vocals are fluctuating and the EQ if you are using one
needs a better setting for your voice , many words are muffled and un clear
Last edited by Cheyenne; 09/09/18 07:59 AM.
One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.
In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
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#1144558 - 09/10/18 07:33 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 237
Cheyenne
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Yes sometimes it is Melody Vocal And Production,
In Princes case That Hooky Chorus was the part that sold the song
The verses were put in to high Light that Chorus
With note contrast , something all great songs have
Plus of course a fabulous Dazzling Guitar Solo
What a showman
Last edited by Cheyenne; 09/10/18 07:42 AM.
One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.
In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
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#1144778 - 09/17/18 07:53 PM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,879
Ricki E. Bellos
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Something a little different from you, Gavin. As a work in progress, I like it and yes, I got it without an explanation although, that's not always the case. I just doubled my dose of smart pills this morning.  I think first person would make the song more emotional and bring the story to life more effectively. If anyone had a problem understanding the plot though, I doubt it would help with that. As for the music, it felt a little tedious, not because it was slow but there just wasn't a lot of texture to it. You might want to re-think it. I'm not sure it's instrumentation that's needed but a more melodic melody. Keep working it and share your progress with your adoring fans.  Ricki
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#1145189 - 10/05/18 01:18 PM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: May 2017
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Gavin Sinclair
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I got a lot of advice from folks here about this song, and I actually listened to it  Cheyenne and Ricki both thought that it would be better in the first person, and others commented that I needed to add interest musically. I switched to first person, added strings and accordion and made a couple of other tweaks. The new version is at the original link here: New VersionI'm not sure whether third or first person is best, and I'm too close to the song to judge, so any comments about that are particularly welcome. The original third person version is here: (although I realize it's a lot to ask you to listen to both): Original Version
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#1145272 - 10/10/18 08:40 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,879
Ricki E. Bellos
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I think first person makes it more emotional, Gavin, and that's what you're going for, right? So that's good.
The song is fairly wordy throughout...have you considered tightening it up? For instance, in the bridge, you could get out the clippers and just keep the important stuff:
These days she doesn't want much Of my hugs or affectionate words We haunt this house but never touch In the loneliest place in the world
When I have a lyric first, I sometimes find myself jumping through a lot of hoops to make the music fit over what I've already written, which can lead to a meandering and undefined melody. It helps a lot to really pare down the dead weight first and only have to work with the important stuff. Then a tighter, more distinct melody may become easier to find. Just a thought.
Ricki
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#1145754 - 10/27/18 03:39 PM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,420
E Swartz
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Ohio
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Gavin,
I haven't read the other comments before writing my own. I think you have a sweet tender love song, nice verses, and a great bridge.........I think your chorus needs tweaked. You lift on the opening chorus line, resolve with the 2nd line fine........but the 3rd line continues a "downward resolve," IMO, it needs to repeat the 1st chorus line melody and lift again, then resolve a 2nd time. You need this slow articulate song to have the chorus offer more lift and break from the strong verse establishment. The bridge works well to digress musically, but the chorus is your punch--that is where you will pull at the heartstrings and create empathy/interest etc.
JMO, use or lose. Definitely a good write here!
steady-eddie
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#1145774 - 10/28/18 05:49 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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E Swartz
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Ohio
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Hey Gavin,
I came back for another listen. I listened to the chorus several times. There are some folk songs that really don't need a strong lifting chorus, but IMO, this one does due to its sad/slower verse movement. Having a more lifting repeated melody in your chorus would achieve this: Here is one example:
PC intro chorus line lifting line 1 lifting line 2 neutral resolving line 3 final resolve (thousand miles) 4
Now I'm going back to read other comments----wow, you have a lot of comments here to dissect). I see that Vic, Niteshift, & a few others hit on my thoughts, somewhat.
Beautiful lyrics will not be heard as they should, without a well structured "melody train;" lyrics are very important, but are the "passengers" on that train. When you have the lyrics first like you afore mentioned, it can be hard to separate or augment those lyrics, but sometimes it is required for melody structure--and that is part of our art as songwriters and why lyricists and music composers sometimes cannot agree. You are very close here to having a great song. Let the verses tell the story, let the chorus drive the theme home, rather than continue with too much detail. Songs evolve as we are writing them due to their work in progress needs. But always keep in mind that the new listener will listen without a clue, so the music needs to capture them within 30-40 seconds IMO, else wonderful lyrics won't be heard.
I really like the overall lyrics/melody and tenderness of this song. Having a story-line that's not easy to "get" the first spin is fine with me and can make a song intriguing. Having a strong chorus expounding the theme however, will capture the listener's interest and allow them to sympathize/empathize and focus more on the verse meanings, or even relate them to their own nostalgic or tragic circumstances.
I'm hoping you take my thoughts as complementing and sharing, rather as negative--if I didn't like the song, I wouldn't spend this much time here--and what I say is JMO from my perspective, but if you feel so inclined, experiment with the chorus melody & structure. I've had songs written for a couple of years that I've later tweaked for the better. (If we were famous--we couldn't do that, it would be too late, sometimes with released music, they'd love to change something but cannot)!"
Regards,
steady-eddie
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#1145776 - 10/28/18 07:52 AM
Re: In France
[Re: Gavin Sinclair]
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Joined: May 2017
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Gavin Sinclair
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Hey Eddie, of course I take your suggestions in the positive spirit in which they are offered. In fact, I'm very grateful that you took the time to make such a long and detailed post. I have a couple of ideas for the chorus melody that I'm going to try out.
Not 100% sure that I'm on-board when it comes to following the classic story-in-the-verses-theme-in-the-chorus structure. That certainly works for the vast majority of songs. It give the listener a break from the story, so that he can return to it refreshed after the chorus. In this particular song, I'm not sure that I want to give him a break from the intensity, as I think it might also break the spell. I'm going to give that some more thought. I've also had someone comment on another forum that I belong to that she found it a little uncomfortable to listen to, especially the first person version. I want people to be moved, of course, but not so sure about "uncomfortable!" BTW, I'm still trying to decide between first and third person.
Thanks so much for commenting in such detail and making such valuable suggestions. I really appreciate it.
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