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#1144463 - 09/05/18 05:53 PM John Rich/ Kaepernick  
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#1144507 - 09/07/18 07:40 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Uh - because one's a singer?

#1144533 - 09/08/18 10:58 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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?

Ones a singer, ones a former football player who is more known for his national anthem protests than football. Rich is angry because Nike is using him in their ad campaigns

I get his point, if you wanna call Kaepernick a political activist, that's fine, but why is Nike using a political activist to sell sports gear?

What they are really doing is appealing to the Kaepernick's sympathizers. And they know who their customer base is.

It's a shame. The guy had great talent. Made it all the way to a superbowl, then like many athletes, couldn't sustain it for a long period of time.

Is he good enough to be backup on some team? Probably, that's where all the controversy is coming from. He claims hes being blacklisted from NFL. He's better than at least 10 backups in the NFL right now, but he would have to be paid backup money, and ride the bench.

The bottom line he's not a great quarterback, if he was nobody would care. But a marginal QB with a bad attitude probably wont land a gig.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/08/18 11:04 AM.
#1144537 - 09/08/18 03:08 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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But why should they both play football? Only one of them even wants to.

#1144561 - 09/10/18 09:57 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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What we have here is a failure to communicate...

#1144562 - 09/10/18 10:14 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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It will be interesting to see if this Nike campaign helps or hurts their sales. it may work out since it is usually a benefit to gain some loyal customers even at the expense of losing some random customers.

I am curious to see the ad. The news reported that Nike stock fell 2 percent. I'm not sure if that is investors making a calculated decision based on their best analysis of the effectiveness of the ad, or if they are selling their stock in emotional protest, like burning a Beatles record.


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#1144564 - 09/10/18 10:48 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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He says in the Ad "If people say your dreams are crazy, if they laugh at what you think you can do — good, stay that way, because what nonbelievers fail to understand is that calling a dream crazy is not an insult, it's a compliment." "So don't ask if your dreams are crazy. Ask if they're crazy enough."

The ironic part is , he cant find a team.

I dont mind people trying to make change, and for the people who say you should just shut up, silence is unpatriotic too. Standing by and letting things go is not American either.

Its just I think If Kaepernik was a thriving star in the NFL he would have never done this, he'd shut up and enjoy being a superstar and the millions.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/10/18 10:50 AM.
#1144565 - 09/10/18 10:57 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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#1144567 - 09/10/18 11:25 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Moosesong]  
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Originally Posted by Moosesong
It will be interesting to see if this Nike campaign helps or hurts their sales. . . .

Stock traders are human, so what the market does often just tells you their mood. For instance, Wall Street traders are mostly New Yorkers, so stocks go up when the Yankees win.

Stock traders also tend to be fairly conservative or apolitical white guys. Like a lot of conservative and apolitical white guys, they don't love Kaepernik. So Nike stocks dipped. Their gut reaction is no surprise.

In the long run, though, if sales are good, Nike's stock value will reflect that.

#1144568 - 09/10/18 11:29 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . Its just I think If Kaepernik was a thriving star in the NFL he would have never done this, he'd shut up and enjoy being a superstar and the millions.

Hm. So you think kneeling was just a strategy for career advancement?

#1144569 - 09/10/18 11:38 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Well hes more famous now than he has been in several years. I cant judge, if he really feels African Americans are mistreated by Police and many other complaints, he has a right to say it.

Maybe not strategy for advancement, but with a very lucrative career in football in the rearview, its easy to then start talking.

And if I was making all those millions, and was enjoying a great career, I too would shut up and play football. What I wouldnt want to do is because my career has failed,
then start talking.

Do it while your up there, but they wont because there is too much to lose.



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/10/18 11:39 AM.
#1144572 - 09/10/18 01:15 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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#1144575 - 09/10/18 06:16 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . Maybe not strategy for advancement, but with a very lucrative career in football in the rearview, its easy to then start talking. . . .

Okay. Not a strategy, then. Let's call it a plan. An out. A golden parachute. Sounds like you think that (a) he was washed up and (b) he took a knee for self-agrandizement, not for principle.

Has he said anything that suggests that? Does he have a prior history of naked opportunism that supports your theory? Do people generally agree that he was about to get fired? I've never heard that.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/10/18 06:18 PM.
#1144591 - 09/11/18 06:50 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: 9ne]  
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Originally Posted by 9ne
Dixie Chicks?

Cool avatar, 9ne!

#1144598 - 09/11/18 11:23 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Delmont, do you really care about the subject? Doesnt sound like you do, which is fine... You dont have to pretend to be interested for my sake.

I posted the story it cause it involves a country singer. He has a big problem with Kaepernick and Nike.

My opinion is just an opinion. I was a fan of his football playing, he started off fantastic. Was a dual threat, a cannon arm and very fast.

He went to a superbowl, played great but fell short to Baltimore. He was on top of the world, had lots of endorsements.

But if im being honest, what happened first, was his talent fell off. What happens to many athletic type quarterbacks is they try to run past everybody instead of throwing it like a quarterback should do. They end up getting clobbered and also making mistakes.

Sometimes the league figures you out and you are no longer effective, other guys can adjust and have long careers.

There are very few Tom Bradys who can play past mid thirty and still be great, very few.

So once he started faltering, he had trouble signing with a team again. He managed to play backup for a while, that's when he started his kneeling at games during national anthems to protest what he believes is racial injustice from police among other things.

Notice he didn't do that when he was on top of the world. That is my point

He has a right to protest whatever he wants, but you piss alot of people off by doing so. They want to be entertained. There is politics in everything, football shouldn't be one of them.

He claims he's now blacklisted because of his activism, the reality is he's not good enough any more to be a noisy distraction to a team

If you think some coach wants a guy who creates controversy on his team, you're mistaken. They try everything they can do to stay on the downlow and focus on football.

You dont need to hear half your home crowd booing him when he gets on the field. You need everybody on your side. Now, if he was lights out great, the boos would turn to cheers fast....

I dont fault somebody for voicing what they believe to be true, but i do challenge motives.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/11/18 11:28 AM.
#1144619 - 09/13/18 09:04 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I think he is sincere. Things I have read indicate that. also if he still has enough talent to earn millions as a second string quarterback, why throw that away.

Nike is a fluke. His kneeling scares 99% of the corporations and their advertising directors.


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#1144620 - 09/13/18 10:00 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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If Nike increases sales, then others will have him on. He can make a career out of doing this. Corperations care about one thing, money.

Whatever can make them money they will do it.

Not everybody is convinced of his sincerity though. Being a backup is a hard thing to swallow for a former superstar, and you see highly paid players complaining that they are not getting playing time. They want to be superstars as well as make money. They want their name in the headlines. Hard to make headlines as a backup

here is one take. https://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2018/09/meet_the_jersey_who_exposed_nike_hypocrisy_long_be.html

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/13/18 10:01 AM.
#1144641 - 09/13/18 09:50 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Delmont, do you really care about the subject?


Yes, very much.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . So once he started faltering, he had trouble signing with a team again. He managed to play backup for a while, that's when he started his kneeling at games during national anthems to protest what he believes is racial injustice from police among other things.

Notice he didn't do that when he was on top of the world. That is my point


But if people at the top of their professions were the only ones who had the right to express themselves, that would pretty much shut up most of us. Happily, that's not the American Way.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . I dont fault somebody for voicing what they believe to be true, but i do challenge motives.

That's what's interesting. I can't see the dots you're connecting. It still seems like you're making a case without having any evidence to back it up. Your story seems to be that to revive a supposedly washed-up career, he took a knee in order to be the center of a Nike ad campaign. Which would only make sense if Nike was in on the scheme from Jump Street.

So why would Nike intentionally create a controversy to get mired in? As a conspiracy theory, that one just seems outlandish - especially in the absence of any concrete evidence to support it.

Meanwhile, some of your comments ("what he believes to be racial injustice," "what they believe to be true") suggest that you're not be entirely sure that racism is a problem in the U.S. Regardless of whether it is or isn't, at least consider that that might affect your feelings (and suspicions) about Kaepernick.

You could be right about him. I have no idea. I'm not a mind reader. Neither are you. And it doesn't matter. What does matter is that regardless of his motives, it's good for America when people take stands (or knees) to make real the promise of liberty and justice for all.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/13/18 09:58 PM.
#1144642 - 09/13/18 09:57 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Moosesong]  
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Originally Posted by Moosesong
I think he is sincere. Things I have read indicate that. also if he still has enough talent to earn millions as a second string quarterback, why throw that away.

Nike is a fluke. His kneeling scares 99% of the corporations and their advertising directors.

Yup. I'm sure it scared Nike, too. Given that he was already a Nike endorser, they had the choice of dumping him, which would've outraged millions of consumers, or making the most of it by taking the high road.

It's a gamble. It'll be interesting to see whether it pays off.

I've never owned or wanted a pair of Nikes. This might inspire me to buy a pair of Chucks!

#1144649 - 09/14/18 09:32 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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A football game is no place to protest the police. And kneeling for a national anthem is no way to protest the police.

Kaepernick has a right to protest, but that doesn't mean his protests are right. It doesn't mean that all police officers are mistreating blacks, doesnt mean that often times these guys dont resist arrest and punch the cops and curse at them when they are trying to do their job.

Nike stock is up now. Nike cares about one thing making money. If this guy went on to murder somebody, they would remove him from the ad in a second. They know enough people, particulary people who are interesting in buying sports gear indentify with him.

As i said many have conflicting views:

https://medium.com/@johndderek33/colin-kaepernick-is-a-fraud-a586612ed9ca

Colin Kaepernick is a Fraud

Benching Was the Reason for His Anthem Kneel

This nonsense MUST stop right now. Kaepernick, since 2015 was going to lose his job to Blaine Gabbert and that was why he protested and kneeled during the National Anthem. He was crying like a baby, made an excuse when questioned then ran with it.

I hate to waste my time and energy on such garbage, but Google, “colin kaepernick to be benched” and do some research for yourself. He REFUSES to sign with another team because he is no more than a glorified backup quarterback at best. He cannot throw a football to save his life. Stop looking at how he trounced the Green Bay Packers for an out. In a December 2016 game versus the Bears he threw for 4 yards in three quarters. WHAT!?

The problems before the Bears game started during the preseason in 2016; before his September 2016 anthem kneel during the 49ers last preseason game. He is a fraud and exploited the propaganda releasing media for what it is, “FAKE”. Colin is filthy rich and I don’t care how many hands he shakes or babies he’s kissed.

This just angers me so much because “americans” will find any way they can to crap on America instead of standing up for their country. Right or wrong it is my country and I support it 100%. Does anybody read past the headlines or the ticker tape on their nightly news anymore? The country is turning into a wasteland because of propaganda infiltrated by the “fake” news Americans love to not read.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/14/18 10:49 AM.
#1144650 - 09/14/18 09:57 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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#1144689 - 09/14/18 06:41 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
A football game is no place to protest the police. And kneeling for a national anthem is no way to protest the police.

Kaepernick has a right to protest, but that doesn't mean his protests are right.

Malvina Reynolds has a great song that goes straight to that: "It Isn't Nice."


Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
It doesn't mean that all police officers are mistreating blacks,

I've never heard anyone say that.

Can you show use someone who says all cops mistreat minorities? I'd be interested in seeing that.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . ]Nike stock is up now. Nike cares about one thing making money.

Yup. That's what I said above, twice.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
If this guy went on to murder somebody, they would remove him from the ad in a second.

Of course.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . As i said many have conflicting views:

https://medium.com/@johndderek33/colin-kaepernick-is-a-fraud-a586612ed9ca

Colin Kaepernick is a Fraud

Benching Was the Reason for His Anthem Kneel


Yikes! John Derek Griebenow? That's not a news site, it's a blogger with an axe to grind. An ugly one, at that. No wonder you're agitated!

Is there something unpatriotic about demanding equality and justice in the land of the free? In a lot of countries, the Kaepernicks are jailed or killed for speaking out. In our country, it's not a crime. It's a responsibility - one that too many avoid. Or, worse, attack.

Griebenow looks like one of them. I'll bet you're not.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/14/18 06:53 PM.
#1144701 - 09/15/18 08:30 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Nothing at all unpatriotic about demanding equality.... if its accurate.

He didnt open his mouth when he was a star.

Wearing a Fidel Castro T Shirt is about as wrong as wearing a Hitler T shirt.

I dont like phonies, that's all.

#1144703 - 09/15/18 09:47 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I dont like phonies, that's all.

You're continuing to accuse him of being insincere without evidence. So it still seems like you just want him to be insincere. Which makes me wonder why that matters to you.

(Personally, I don't care whether he's sincere or not. An old boss of mine put it well: You don't have to do the right thing for the right reason. You just have to do the right thing.)

My dad once went to Cuba with a bunch of journalists on a fact-finding mission and ended up spending some time in one of Batista's jails. Compared to what most Cubans had been living under, Fidel was a big improvement. I don't think you'd call Hitler an improvement over anything.

Anyhow, if nothing else, you've prompted me to get Big Game by Mark Leibovich from the library. Thanks!

Last edited by Delmont; 09/15/18 10:01 AM.
#1144764 - 09/17/18 09:56 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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It makes me wonder why it matters to you, since you have never watched a football game, or cared about it, or even heard of this whole thing until i mentioned it.

Im not accusing him of anything, i'm telling you what happened. He did not cause controversy until he was benched.

I dont... not want him to sincere, im telling you what happened. I was a fan of his game.

I posted the article cause I thought some of the country music fans might be interested in what Rich had to say.

You keep pushing your liberal agenda, I'm posting the facts. I'm neither liberal or conservative.

And you lost me at Fidel Castro was an improvement.

If you applaud brutal dictatorship im done discussing it with you.





Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/17/18 09:57 AM.
#1144776 - 09/17/18 06:57 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
It makes me wonder why it matters to you, since you have never watched a football game, or cared about it, or even heard of this whole thing until i mentioned it.


It matters because stopping police brutality and other forms on institutionalized racism matters.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . And you lost me at Fidel Castro was an improvement.


It was just interesting that you compared him to Hitler. I agree that Castro came down too hard on too many of his country's people. But we could say the same thing about Abraham Lincoln. Sherman's march to the sea was no May Day parade.

So: Castro = Hitler? The US and Nazi Germany have been guilty of slavery and genocide. Castro's Cuba hasn't.

Meanwhile the standard of living and life expectancy of working-class Cubans got better when Batista was driven out. That's why I used the word improvement. Batista - a friend of big business and organized crime and enemy of trade unionists and civil rights advocates - had a lot more in common with Hitler than Castro did.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/25/18 08:08 AM.
#1144784 - 09/18/18 05:42 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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at a football game, there are people whose job it is to pretend everything is wonderful whether it really is or not. they are called "cheerleaders". they say yay a lot and act happy even when the home team is down 50 - 0, they are still cheering.

if its 3rd and 8, and the runner gains a whopping 1 yard, the cheerleaders still cheer because that's their job. If they ever let a cheer of "well that really sucked", they would be fired and rightly so.

but Kap is/was a football player. it is not his job to pretend things are fine when they are not.


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#1144787 - 09/18/18 09:47 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Exactly MOOSESONG.... so why did he pretend everything was fine when he was a star and on top of the world? Did this suddenly become important to him after he was benched?

It's very similar to this "me too" movement. Women flirt and sleep with hollywood producers to advance their careers. They should speak right then and right there, this guy only will give me a job if i sleep with him. Instead, they do it, waiting for the goldrush, then if their career fails they spill the beans. or, if they do make it, they say it cause they already got what they needed from him, and then no longer need him.

#1144794 - 09/18/18 06:06 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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The US has never been guilty of genocide. The US is also the only nation to fight a civil war to end slavery, a war that cost the nation dearly. Slavery was common for thousands of years before the New World colonies and was even practiced by the Cherokees, who brought their slaves on the Trail of Tears. Slavery continues to this day, mostly in Africa.

#1144807 - 09/19/18 08:17 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Aw, Humm, Well,
Be careful when trying to straighten out the world. One guy tried it and you know what they did to him.


Ray E. Strode
#1144810 - 09/19/18 09:10 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I don't know if status of his carrer had an effect on when he decided to start kneeling. it could be the series of incidents of cops killing black men just kept bothering him and building up inside and September 2016 just happened to be when it became too much.

when does a pot decide those little bubbles forming on the bottom aren't enough and it must start to really boil?

Or it could be a specific incident around that time. that was just too much.

or even if it was triggered by his career decline, it could be, that he realized "if I don't do something now while people know me, no one will care later on when I am an official has-been" or that he might have felt this stunt could cost him his job, but he no longer felt he had that much to lose.


David Hunkins
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I'm a 99 percent inspiration man living in a 99 percent perspiration world..
#1144815 - 09/19/18 04:04 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Well that would mean it could also be he is a bitter ex player who couldn't be a star any more. We'll never know, but im not calling him an American Hero.

You know who is an American Hero? Pat Tillman. Ever hear of him?

Here is a guy who was a star player, but decided to defend our country instead, went to iraq and died. He didn't do it after he was cut from the team.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/19/18 04:21 PM.
#1144850 - 09/21/18 09:33 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
The US has never been guilty of genocide . . . .

No, not by that name. We called it westward expansion and Manifest Destiny.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/22/18 06:30 AM.
#1144851 - 09/21/18 09:39 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . You know who is an American Hero? Pat Tillman. Ever hear of him? . . .

I remember that story well. He was killed by friendly fire, and the government tried to cover it up.

His family raised a stink, and the whole story finally came out.

#1144852 - 09/21/18 10:24 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Delmont]  
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You can say pretty much whatever you want in the US. In and of itself that's one reason it's been the best country in the world for centuries.

#1144856 - 09/22/18 06:31 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Aw, Humm, Well,
Be careful when trying to straighten out the world. One guy tried it and you know what they did to him.

We can think of a lot more than one, right?

#1144857 - 09/22/18 06:34 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
You can say pretty much whatever you want in the US. In and of itself that's one reason it's been the best country in the world for centuries.

It's by far my favorite. I'd certainly call it "best" if we're talking about music. There are a lot of measures of "best," and a lot of them apply to other countries.

#1144858 - 09/22/18 06:38 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
. . . Slavery was common for thousands of years before the New World colonies . . . .

Yup! And it's still practiced today. Ours was by far the biggest slave economy in history, and the practice (imported from Barbasos to the deep south) of working slaves to death is a hallmark of that heritage. It's not how people like Aesop and Aristotle were treated.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/22/18 06:42 AM.
#1144859 - 09/22/18 08:03 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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They apply to other countries but not in total. Which is why people from other nations have been struggling to come here, again, for centuries.

How would anyone gauge the treatment of Jews under the Egyptians vs. The colonies? Or how the Barbary pirates treated their slaves? Or the cannibalism and human sacrifices of the South Americans when Columbus arrived? The polygamy, FGM, animal sacrifices, slavery, voodoo, beheadings, belief in vampirism that continues to this day in other cultures?

The US has been a leader in civil rights since its inception. It can't claim perfection but it can point out that tens of millions have come here for the American Dream. There's no such thing as the Somalian Dream, the Venezuelan Dream or the Italian. The US is the best.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 09/22/18 08:04 AM.
#1144860 - 09/22/18 08:17 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Couch's answer is one of the best. It makes complete sense too.

If America sucks so bad, why is everybody trying to come here.

Gavel.

#1144862 - 09/22/18 10:28 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Not to mention the fact that its loudest critics are happy to remain here...

#1144864 - 09/22/18 04:14 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I love America, but for the life of me, I can't understand all this chest beating about being the best country in the world. Maybe it's my more reticent British background, but to me it just seems undignified. The best country in the world doesn't have to go around bragging about it.

There's no objective measurement for "best country." Every country has debits and credits on its ledger. The US has done some wonderful things to be proud of and some pretty unsavory things to come to terms with. Recognizing those things and coming to terms with them doesn't make one unpatriotic. The US gave the world a great example in the Constitution. Despite its many flaws, it's a magnificent thing and has preserved democracy, sometimes defending it from people's worst instincts. The US pretty much saved much of the world from totalitarianism. When there is a humanitarian crisis, the US is usually first on the scene, often reaching out a hand to people in countries whose governments have propped up their dubious legitimacy by peddling anti-US sentiment. You can go some places and hear people blame the US for everything. It's not as common as people in the US seem to think, but when it happens, it's just as bad or worse as the "we're the best" chest beating.

On the debit side, the US wiped out almost an entire race of people. Half of the US fought a war to preserve slavery decades after European governments had outlawed it and, if you had asked most soldiers on the other side if they were fighting to free the slaves, they would have said no. The same nation that produced Abraham Lincoln produced Jefferson Davis and his modern equivalents. Round where I live, there are still traces of Jim Crow sentiment, mostly hidden until recently. That same constitution that has defended freedom has also trapped the US in a time warp where simple fixes to a not very democratic system that lags behind other countries are practically impossible to implement. It's silly to close your eyes to these things. They don't stop me from loving this country warts and all. I choke up when I hear "America the Beautiful" sung. To me it's the most idealistically American song because it urges us all, with God's help, to constantly strive to make this great country ever better

"America! America!
God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

With apologies to the "love it or leave it" crowd, I'll take my cue from Katherine Lee Bates when it comes to real patriotism and what makes America truly great.

#1144865 - 09/22/18 07:50 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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the US didn't almost wipe out an entire race of people. The reason for saying it's the best isn't boasting or empty patriotism, it's to counter absurd(with all due respect) claims like that one. Any institution comprised of humans will have major flaws, that's where the "best" comes in.


There are very, very few modern equivalents to the leader of the Confederacy, if any. Please. "Traces" of a sentiment are meaningless in a nation of 330, 000, 000. You might as well accuse the US of having traces of thievery. It's not perfect, but it's the best.

#1144866 - 09/22/18 07:54 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
. . . If America sucks so bad, why is everybody trying to come here. . . .


Yup, it's much better here than the places they're fleeing. We could do more to welcome people escaping persecution.

Reconnect children with their parents. Allow DREAMERs to stay. Accommodate asylum seekers.

Taking in the "hungry masses yearning to breath free" is the American promise. That promise is something to be proud of - and strive to make real.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/22/18 08:23 PM.
#1144867 - 09/22/18 08:19 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
the US didn't almost wipe out an entire race of people. . . .

The town I live in used to be the home of a lot of Penobscot tribal members. The Kennebec River, down the hill from my house, was their lifeblood. Now they're pretty much gone from here, the Maine tribes are small, and the land they can move about on freely without trespassing on private property is confined to a few tiny communally-owned reservations. The Penobscot reservation is one small island in the Penobscot River.

Genocide (a.k.a. ethnic cleansing, Manifest Destiny, or the Final Solution) is about the intent, not the result. Jews weren't almost wiped out by the Nazis, but it was still genocide.

Etimates of pre-Columbus native population range from ten million to over a hundred million. The US now has fewer than three million full-blooded tribal members. The rest were victims of war, disease, slavery, and starvation. US goverment policy and actions were the cause of a lot of loss of their lives, liberty, and heritage.

Last edited by Delmont; 09/22/18 08:40 PM.
#1144868 - 09/22/18 08:32 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
the US didn't almost wipe out an entire race of people. The reason for saying it's the best isn't boasting or empty patriotism, it's to counter absurd(with all due respect) claims like that one. Any institution comprised of humans will have major flaws, that's where the "best" comes in.


There are very, very few modern equivalents to the leader of the Confederacy, if any. Please. "Traces" of a sentiment are meaningless in a nation of 330, 000, 000. You might as well accuse the US of having traces of thievery. It's not perfect, but it's the best.


I actually wrote a reply to this but deleted it before posting because life is too short to get into this kind of absurd argument and risk causing offense.

#1144869 - 09/22/18 08:49 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I agree. And besides, the original topic was about a guy I never heard of until he started "protesting" and a guy I'd forgotten about until he complained about the "protesting".


Delmont, estimates concerning an old populace with no infrastructure are meaningless and impossible to verify. Death from disease is very understandable for such a primitive culture. The Nazis intended to kill Jews(and others), The conflict between the US and Indians was a war for territory. The Indians fought valiantly but lost. Sad but true and such is life.

#1144870 - 09/22/18 08:52 PM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
. . . I actually wrote a reply to this but deleted it before posting because life is too short to get into this kind of absurd argument and risk causing offense.

I'm interested in learning what Couch and Fdemitrio think. There are different strains of patriotism, and there's is certainly one. Not mine, exactly, but it's just as real. Worth understanding.

How generous is it? How altruistic? How open, welcoming, and affirming? How informed? How brave?

Most importantly, where does it connect with my own mores and beliefs? What can we learn from each other?

So I've liked reading and thinking about their comments - and yours, too!


Last edited by Delmont; 09/23/18 11:53 AM.
#1144893 - 09/24/18 09:36 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Exactly again @ Couchgrouch. It's not chest beating, we're trying to put it back in the face of the people who live here, thrive here, couldn't do it anywhere else but here, but still say stupid things like America commits genocide, and America is a bully, and America is mean.... and that everywhere else is so much better, and those countries are so much nicer etc etc etc.

When a a country who harbors terrorists, captures one of our people, those countries do nothing to set them free. They behead our citizens on TV, and the very country that they are doing this in, does nothing. We have to grin and bear it, the families have to suffer an unimaginable agony.

What do we do if we capture a terrorist? We use tax payers money to give them a trial, we dont say "hey Iraq, we got one of your people, one more barbaric attack on our people and we will behead him. Or give us your oil. or we will behead them."

We have been letting people in forever. Illegal and legal. Some of these folks work at McDonald's and other places, and dont even have a real social security number.

When there is a natural disaster, who steps up and flips the bill?

Where was all the support for our tragedies? It's laughable, but during 9-11 and Katrina and others, some countries sent us things like "one" ambulance, canned corn, and other BS.

I dont actually have a problem with people coming here. We are all immigrants, and some families just want to make enough money to eat. But I do agree with Trump in that if you come here and commit a violent crime, you're gone.

It's not patriotism, there are many things wrong with our country. And im not against standing up for what you perceive is right. But it's the best system in the world, and please do not debate me on this. Trump is a boob, i'm not defending him as a person, and my "'patriotism" is not about agreeing with everything he says or the government says.

Im just tired of people complaining about everything. Go somewhere else and then see what you have to complain about.

Dont forget some countries cut off an hand or a limb for stealing. And they may cut off both for drunk driving.

What do we do? We allow the person to choose what they'd like. A heavier fine or a lesser period of time without a license. I've seen it first hand in a court room.

We are far and above nice here.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/27/18 11:40 AM.
#1144894 - 09/24/18 09:43 AM Re: John Rich/ Kaepernick [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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