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#1143496 - 08/03/18 11:53 AM Live By The Gun  
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floyd jane Offline
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A 4-minute Country-EDM-Spaghetti-Western



LIVE BY THE GUN

you don't turn away from a stranger's stare
you don't turn the corner without saying a prayer

he had no choice but to saddle up
for the sake of his young wife and son
it broke his heart to be runnning
but the town had learned the story of his gun
a peaceful sunday, just out of church
they heard his name called from the street
the whisper of leather, the thunder of guns
and one more man lay dying at his feet

   when you live by the gun
   they don't leave you room to run
   a legend has a life of its own
   so you face all that come
   when you live by the gun

for years he drifted from town to town
to find one where no one knew his name
but he could never hide from the bitter regret
of the price of unwanted fame
passing a church, lost in reflection
a voice challenges, "i've heard you're the best"
could that be the face of his own son
through the smoke as the bullet hits his chest

   when you live by the gun
   they don't leave you room to run
   a legend has a life of its own
   so you face all that come
   when you live by the gun

you don't turn away from a stranger's stare
you don't turn the corner without saying a prayer
now, he'll face all that come
he lives by the gun





Listen in phones to catch everything...
Hope you find this interesting.
Comments welcome.
Have at it.

floyd

#1143501 - 08/03/18 01:34 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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Floyd

You are prolific and always good.

Martin

#1143503 - 08/03/18 01:46 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Calvin Online content
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Hello Floyd,


Wow------this is excellent.


Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart

#1143510 - 08/03/18 09:46 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Love those opening lines, the music gets your right in the mood!

I like how you've used harmony in the verses quite sparingly, just to emphasize key words, I thought that worked very well.
And those dramatic moments like "the thunder of guns" are excellent.

I would suggest paring back the harmonies in the chorus a little. They should be there more than in the verse, but a little contrast without them is nice too.

Great story. And a "wheel comes full circle" type ending.

I wondered if the 2nd time through the chorus you might vary it slightly with "so you face what you've become" or something like that.

Very good stuff! smile

#1143517 - 08/04/18 07:47 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Hi Floyd.
Not heard this style from you before.
Very well written and I like the harmonies "the thunder of guns" especially.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1143567 - 08/05/18 01:32 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Calvin]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Floyd

You are prolific and always good.

Martin


Thanks for having a listen, Martin...


Originally Posted by Calvin
Hello Floyd,


Wow------this is excellent.


Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart


Thanks, Calvin!

#1143587 - 08/06/18 02:01 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Vicarn]  
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Originally Posted by RainyDayMan
Love those opening lines, the music gets your right in the mood!

I like how you've used harmony in the verses quite sparingly, just to emphasize key words, I thought that worked very well.
And those dramatic moments like "the thunder of guns" are excellent.

I would suggest paring back the harmonies in the chorus a little. They should be there more than in the verse, but a little contrast without them is nice too.

Great story. And a "wheel comes full circle" type ending.

I wondered if the 2nd time through the chorus you might vary it slightly with "so you face what you've become" or something like that.

Very good stuff! smile


Owen - thanks for having a listen. Appreciate the suggestions... I'll stick with the harmony layout as it currently is...



Originally Posted by Vicarn
Hi Floyd.
Not heard this style from you before.
Very well written and I like the harmonies "the thunder of guns" especially.

Vic


Thanks, Vic.

#1143593 - 08/06/18 06:52 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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hi Floyd...I love me a gun slinger tale. One thing I would say is that the reveal of the shooter being his son comes out of nowhere. There's no foreshadowing that his son was interested in guns, or would hate his father enough to gun him down in cold blood, just to have killed the best. It needs that for the story to have believability. Otherwise it's what they call a deus ex machina. Again, just my opinion. good luck with it. smile

#1143611 - 08/07/18 06:11 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: couchgrouch]  
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floyd jane Offline
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
hi Floyd...I love me a gun slinger tale. One thing I would say is that the reveal of the shooter being his son comes out of nowhere. There's no foreshadowing that his son was interested in guns, or would hate his father enough to gun him down in cold blood, just to have killed the best. It needs that for the story to have believability. Otherwise it's what they call a deus ex machina. Again, just my opinion. good luck with it. smile


The song is already 4 minutes long. I suppose I could have written a backstory for the son - about how screwed up he was from Dad being a cold-blooded killer and leaving his family with nothing and the hatred that that cultivated. And how the son practiced daily looking forward to the day he would track the scoundrel down. Guessing that would have added another 4 minutes - and who wants to listen to 8 minute songs? I believe most people have an imagination and can easily make up a backstory. Quite quickly, actually. It doesn't take a genius. It can have different scenarios, varying nuances, depending on the listener. And all happen in a matter of seconds once the son is mentioned. I don't see it as a hail-mary-blue-sky-wrap-this-up-somehow thing. If you see it that way, okay...

Or... maybe it is not his son at all. Read carefully. "Could that be...through the smoke..." could just as easily be construed as meaning that he had spent his whole life thinking about his son, regretting his decision to leave... and that is the last thing on his mind as he lies dying as a consequence of his life...

Oh, the possibilities....

Thanks for your thoughts.

#1143612 - 08/07/18 06:22 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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the thing is...if you can't make the story plausible within the time you've set for your song, you've chosen the wrong story. As it is, it's not believable. You could re-write your chorus or that couplet and put some info in there. you could also change the tempo of the song. When you think of a story, you have to run through the things necessary to make the ending work. the ending is everything in a story. It's 50% of your grade. The ending of this song isn't plausible without some sort of foreshadowing.

#1143613 - 08/07/18 07:57 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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The payoff right?

I think you're both right.

I believe Couchgrouch is being sincere, what the motive is I don't know. But I don't think he'd invent ideas to crit about.

And if he offered me some tidbits, I'd probably give it some thought.

Floyd is also right, In that you can't ever tell how somebody is going to view a story. They dont know they are listening to a story, they are experiencing something.

I can name prolly 100 songs where what the song was supposed to be about, was miles away from what I thought. There needs to be breathing room, and also the realization that most folks are only going to get dribs and drabs of. a lyric. Hard to guide them through a detailed story, even if u do they will hear what they want to. There needs to be a balance there

I know country is a bit more specific, and not alot of interpretation, and country is not my forte.

This sounded to me like a fusion of soul, blues and country, country rnb.

I find the vocal believable, the story, I think goes along for the ride.

I enjoyed it



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/07/18 07:59 PM.
#1143617 - 08/07/18 10:06 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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I was being sincere, my motive was only to give an honest, helpful critique. There needs to be a hint, a small one earlier in the lyric about the son's mindset to murder his own father. Songs aren't novels and it's legitimate to leave certain details to the listener's imagination. But that's too big to be the responsibility of the audience. That's where being a writer comes in. You have to be aware of what your project needs to reach its potential, then you have to buckle down and do it. It's hard.

The ending of this comes out of nowhere and is a deus ex machina. I'm not trying to be combative.

#1143619 - 08/08/18 02:00 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Cheyenne Online content
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I believe the best comment here is from COUCHGROUS

I repeat , Songs are not novels , There is No Real Story Line here, Its Too vague

and worst of all It's Preaching

When someone gives you an honest critique, that's something

worth thinking about , a song must have a beginning a middle and an end

Study songs recorded by Kenny Rogers , Interesting story lines , keeping the listeners

wanting more ;

Yes maybe they were hits Fifty years ago, but they still stand up today,

as do the brilliant songs of Marty Robins,

A well written song has to pull the listener in and keep them there to the

end, Does yours do that ???.

If someone can tell me why this is a well written song ,I would welcome their

opinion,but I would never agree with it


I found the whole recording quite painful to listen to.












Last edited by Cheyenne; 08/08/18 02:22 AM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1143621 - 08/08/18 05:22 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Vicarn Offline
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It seems a point is being missed here.
I don't see this as a song about a son killing his father. The point is that any opponent out there could be his son.
How would the gunfighter know him if he hadn't seen him for years? I see it as a cautionary tale of loss and regret. The message seems clear enough to me.

Whether it's commercial or contemporary or not is a different thing but it is well written in the sense that it all links up and makes sense.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1143634 - 08/08/18 10:41 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Hi floyd

I like the lyric exactly as is. It conjures up iconic westerns from Shane to Unforgiven to High Noon. And the twist of a father and son reunion is compelling. Great texture with the Sergio Leone guitar track and your usual strong vocal.

#1143639 - 08/08/18 11:59 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Our impression is a song that is thought provoking, well written, sung and produced. The choice of the backing tracks work perfectly with your vocal.

We like Mike's mention of Unforgiven. One of our favorite Westerns that while not a similar story certainly has its share of well scripted and effective ambiguity.

Connecting some dots via our personal perspectives has never been a song lyric negative with us; rather, we consider the approach,
when well done like this, to be a great addition to a song writer's tool box.

After our first listening the two of us were immediately swapping perspectives of what went down.

We thought then and continue to do so that the lyric, vocal and the production are powerful.

Another fine addition to your long multi-genre catalog!

J&B


Check out our album Janice Merritt "All Over The Map"
on Spotify, Apple Music, Pandora and others.
#1143642 - 08/08/18 02:04 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Unforgiven? Clint Eastwood and Morgan Freeman play two aging gunfighters who hunt down
and kill two cowboys for the bounty, justifying their actions by saying the cowboys deserved it for cutting up a prostitute. That plot is full of human motivations and backstories. Replace that with Clint Eastwood moves town to town for years trying to escape his past, then is shot out of nowhere by his son, who's given no motivation or story of his own. The end.

That movie wouldn't get made.

Ps. To each his own. If people find this story reminiscent of Shane and Unforgiven, more power to them. Good luck with it.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 08/08/18 02:17 PM.
#1143645 - 08/08/18 04:10 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: couchgrouch]  
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floyd jane Offline
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
the thing is...if you can't make the story plausible within the time you've set for your song, you've chosen the wrong story. As it is, it's not believable. You could re-write your chorus or that couplet and put some info in there. you could also change the tempo of the song. When you think of a story, you have to run through the things necessary to make the ending work. the ending is everything in a story. It's 50% of your grade. The ending of this song isn't plausible without some sort of foreshadowing.


How is a gunslinger being called out and shot dead NOT PLAUSIBLE? For christsake, it's a cliché!

As I said before... I did not say it was his son. You did. And then needed a backstory for that.

I left it up to the listener to decide. Every bit as valid a device as you thinking the son's story needs to be told.

And if it IS his son, so what? - a "surprise" ending? There are plenty of songs that contain surprise endings. Deus ex machina? I don't think so - again, I did not say who that was behind that smoke. Not believable? That a gunslinger might end up dead at the hand of his own son? Why not? Just because there is no going back to set up the son's story. It's not his story. How does that make it NOT believable? There is no logic to follow there.

#1143646 - 08/08/18 04:13 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
The payoff right?

I think you're both right.

I believe Couchgrouch is being sincere, what the motive is I don't know. But I don't think he'd invent ideas to crit about.

And if he offered me some tidbits, I'd probably give it some thought.

Floyd is also right, In that you can't ever tell how somebody is going to view a story. They dont know they are listening to a story, they are experiencing something.

I can name prolly 100 songs where what the song was supposed to be about, was miles away from what I thought. There needs to be breathing room, and also the realization that most folks are only going to get dribs and drabs of. a lyric. Hard to guide them through a detailed story, even if u do they will hear what they want to. There needs to be a balance there

I know country is a bit more specific, and not alot of interpretation, and country is not my forte.

This sounded to me like a fusion of soul, blues and country, country rnb.

I find the vocal believable, the story, I think goes along for the ride.

I enjoyed it




Fd - I appreciate you being a balanced voice in all of this. Who woulda thought?

#1143647 - 08/08/18 04:15 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
I was being sincere, my motive was only to give an honest, helpful critique. There needs to be a hint, a small one earlier in the lyric about the son's mindset to murder his own father. Songs aren't novels and it's legitimate to leave certain details to the listener's imagination. But that's too big to be the responsibility of the audience. That's where being a writer comes in. You have to be aware of what your project needs to reach its potential, then you have to buckle down and do it. It's hard.

The ending of this comes out of nowhere and is a deus ex machina. I'm not trying to be combative.


This is a story from the gunslinger's perspective. He wouldn't know anything about the son's mindset. IF in fact is WAS his son, he would not know until the moment it happened. So why should we? I truly do not get why you are so insistent that there must be a secondary storyline. This ISN'T a novel. This ISN'T a movie. What says there cannot be a shock/surprise ending to a song? And...AGAIN... I left the question open to begin with...

#1143648 - 08/08/18 04:25 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Cheyenne]  
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Originally Posted by Cheyenne


...and worst of all It's Preaching



Actually, there is not a single Preaching line in the entire song.
Every line is a part of the narrative. No Preaching.

"You got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run"

THAT is Preaching (to give a reference you will be familiar with). Telling others what they should and shouldn't do.



Quote

When someone gives you an honest critique, that's something worth thinking about ,


I agree. For you to assume that I do not think it through is fairly presumptive on your part.


Quote

a song must have a beginning a middle and an end


Beginning - Sunday morning with his young family he is called out and kills a man.
Middle - He roams the rest of his life running from his past.
End - He is called out again and is killed.

Check, check, check.

Apparently this was so painful to listen to you didn't even bother.


Quote

A well written song has to pull the listener in and keep them there to the end, Does yours do that ???.


Apparently it does for many listeners who have made comments. After all, it is THE END that y'all seem so up in arms about.


Quote

If someone can tell me why this is a well written song ,I would welcome their opinion,but I would never agree with it


Now THERE is a pure definition of a CLOSED MIND. Why should ANYONE tell you ANYTHING. What difference would it make?


Quote

I found the whole recording quite painful to listen to.


What a lovely thing to say. You are, obviously, SUCH a lovely person. A real class act.

#1143649 - 08/08/18 04:26 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Vicarn]  
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Originally Posted by Vicarn
It seems a point is being missed here.
I don't see this as a song about a son killing his father. The point is that any opponent out there could be his son.
How would the gunfighter know him if he hadn't seen him for years? I see it as a cautionary tale of loss and regret. The message seems clear enough to me.

Whether it's commercial or contemporary or not is a different thing but it is well written in the sense that it all links up and makes sense.

Vic


Exactly.

Thanks, Vic.

#1143650 - 08/08/18 04:30 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Unforgiven? Clint Eastwood and Morgan Freeman play two aging gunfighters who hunt down
and kill two cowboys for the bounty, justifying their actions by saying the cowboys deserved it for cutting up a prostitute. That plot is full of human motivations and backstories. Replace that with Clint Eastwood moves town to town for years trying to escape his past, then is shot out of nowhere by his son, who's given no motivation or story of his own. The end.

That movie wouldn't get made.

Ps. To each his own. If people find this story reminiscent of Shane and Unforgiven, more power to them. Good luck with it.


I don't think anyone is suggesting that this is a parallel to Unforgiven. (I certainly did not). The reference was that it "conjures up iconic westerns". That is a different thing. Certainly nothing wrong with that statement. You are putting words into people's mouth just to make your point - valid or invalid as it may or may not be.

And to say this could not be made into a movie is, again, presumptive on your part. A movie would, of course, likely contain all those heady side stories. After all... it would be a movie! But that is a different thing.

#1143654 - 08/08/18 07:32 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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I will enter this debate primarily because I don't have enough sense to stay out.

I see the foreshadowing point. But songs are short things and sometimes it's hard to work it all in.
In the case of the son killing the dad without being foreshadowed, it is not a problem for me because my mind fills in that gap with a million stories, personal and public that I have heard in my life. There's that shadow on any story.

One manner to tie it together at the end might be to paraphrase that...the gunslinger's blood ran so cold in his son's veins, that it killed him. Bad seed and all that. It's what I took from the story.

There you have it. Don't nobody hate on me for writing that. Y'all hear. wink

#1143670 - 08/09/18 10:17 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Loving that tremolo guitar. Fantastic production. When is the movie? It has to star Clint Eastwood! Who plays the son though? Great lyric. Musically and lyrically it had me engaged from the start. Another to add to the list of amazing tunes.

Dave

#1143698 - 08/10/18 12:38 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Excellent work. Another, different feel for a song from you. Very cool, although I was wanting the tempo to be a little less layed back and a little more intense, just my cent and a half. Well done.

Ricki

#1143723 - 08/11/18 06:47 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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I've removed my original comment! But my opinion of what i listened too hasn't altered.
A dark dirge which i paradoxically enjoyed.
Well put together and performed.
The posting has set the song flying Floyd so well done
Travis

Last edited by Travis david; 08/11/18 12:19 PM.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1143729 - 08/11/18 08:15 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Well, I think we could use a section on the forum for serious reviews. Just one spot where people really wanting a bare look at their songs can dip in if they feel they are ready and willing.

Clearly not everybody wants that.

I guess people have figured out that there is nothing to be had in the songwriting business, and so posting a song is just a social (media) practice.

Hey, here's a picture of me and family at Jose Texas eating Mexican....mmmmmm. Response...thumbs up, I love me some Mexican food...

Hey, here's a video of my daughter dancing at school.. Thumbs up, now go an thumbs up my nephew in his play...

Hey here's a song I wrote. Doesn't matter if it's good or bad, it's a song i wrote, now go like it, and say great things!

Is the idea to just clap because it's somebody asking for our approval, and know they will get it here. Or is the idea to try and improve and keep growing.

Everybody has a different purpose

For me, if nothing else is to be had, the only thing left is to try and write a great songs. A crap one doesn't help me. And false praise is transparent.

The social media side is fine, but just remember, your friends and people who love you are gonna tell you you are great regardless.

I suggest one section for the not feint of heart. Cause some people are interested in the other side....




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/11/18 08:17 AM.
#1143730 - 08/11/18 09:00 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I don't mean to hijack Floyd's thread but wanted to say that I have always asked for honest opinions here and have made an effort to always give them. I never saw JPF as a social media place but rather as a place to share finished music and get help improving works in progress. But there is a tendency here to give praise, warranted or not, rather than helpful criticism. It could be that no one thinks a writer really wants the truth because they themselves don't want it? I don't know. I try to be kind in my critiques, but helpful. It isn't necessary to be cruel or hurtful or insulting, as some have been. When a writer respectfully disagrees with my critique, I rarely come back with an insult because it's their song and only my opinion. And I try to be respectful of other's opinions of my songs, even when I disagree. Some may find it easier to say good job, well done and then go to the next song. If I don't notice anything glaringly wrong, that's what I may do as well rather than nitpick a good song to death, but on those occasions when I do see something that I think can be improved, I say something, no doubt because that's what I'm hoping for when I post a song. It may give one pause when a writer lashes out at a critiquer, or makes it known that they think their song is perfect as is. Why bother with honesty at that point? But if it's posted, asking for comments, I'll still give them. All this to say, I don't think we need a thread for critiques and a different thread for honest critiques. In my opinion, they should all be honest critiques, otherwise what's the point? Just sayin...

Ricki

#1143732 - 08/11/18 09:20 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Floyds got plenty of good songs and good things happening, I don't see it as a high jack.

But it's common courtesy. You be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you.

Works in the real world. If we always said what we thought to everybody, we'd be brawling every day.

and it is hard to say something really bad, especially if the person is a nice person

And then u run the risk of retaliation critiques.

For me, if somebody is thinking something sucks, I wanna know.

We walk around outside, we see an obese person walking around, we are saying, man how does somebody let themselves get that fat. They look disgusting.

But we don't say it to them.

But we're still thinking it.

I think that happens in songs too. People are probably thinking,man, why is so and so still writing, they stink. But we don't say it.

Would you rather hear somebody say, this song sucks, you're writing is weak, or would you rather hear, wonderful.....I enjoyed that.

#1143735 - 08/11/18 10:36 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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It shouldn't be a choice between lies and cruelty. I'm thinking something inbetween...like...I think this is a great theme or you've captured this emotion well but...this bridge is sort of off the topic or maybe the melody could use something different here. You can give encouragement honestly and suggestions kindly. It takes a little longer and more thought than this is great or this sucks but I suspect with the amount of time we all spend here, we have that much time to devote to our fellow travelers, right?

#1143736 - 08/11/18 10:48 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Well, let me say I was trying to be honest and I think my critique was accurate.

It is extremely hard to word a critique like that. Harder than writing a lyric. There's a reason I rarely say much. I always regret coming out of my gopher hole. Either because people get unreasonably offended, because I realize I came across as condescending in retrospect or both.

I sent a publisher five songs. She loved one, Fade to Blonde. She disparaged the others, two of which I think are very good. Hearing critiques from pros made a big difference in how I handle internet critiques. You have to learn to take the hit. Pro critiques can be really harsh. Way tougher than what you get here.

People who post here should pitch their songs to pubs if they don't already. It'll change your perspective.

#1143737 - 08/11/18 10:59 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Ricki, Yes, and music is very subjective, it doesn't make us right either if we say something sucks. There's a lot of hit music I think sucks too.

We do all spend too Much time here, and some people never enter a song thread.

But the way you describe how critiques should be is not how it happens in the real world.

You could pick the greatest song ever and visit YouTube and see 10 k thumbs down, and comments that you wouldn't even say on a construction site.

But what does this is a great theme, or you captured this part well, but the bridge might be off, really mean?

Does that say anything about how good the song is? What it really means is you have found a way to be nice about something that is not very good.

If you loved the song, you wouldn't say it needed anything. You'd be in awe and listening to it over and over again.

It means your expecting amateur songs right from the get go.

I'm amazed at how much stuff is called great here.

The value of the word great weakens when u see it in every single thread.








Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/11/18 11:03 AM.
#1143740 - 08/11/18 11:28 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN


Intro is too long.
Intro is too slow and doesn't grab my interest.
Lyrics are nonsensical babbling, have no idea what this is about.
A stairway? from exactly where? To exactly to where?
Heaven? Just an abstraction and not well described. Put me there. Give me some imagery. Clouds? Pearly gates? Harps? something?
Song is way too long and takes forever to get to the chorus.
Actually, there is no chorus.
Most importantly, it is not written in the paradigm style that is... ALL THINGS ME.
One hell of an emotional electric guitar solo though.


On a scale of 1 to 10, I give it a 2.5. I gave it 2.5 for the solo.
This is not what Jason Blum had in mind. Read his book and think of nothing else when you write.
So, re-write it. In fact, just throw it out and start over.


There is an infamous "Don't Blink" thread from another site years ago. I think it is one of the best object lessons to occur on a song site.

#1143742 - 08/11/18 11:38 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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True Marty, but I don't revere Jason Blum

when somebody is in Led Zeppelin, nobody tells them to change anything because Led Zeppelin is performing it.

But even so, nobody here has written anything remotely close to stairway to heaven, lyrically or melodically, or musicially. And nobody here has performed the song anyway near that.

It doesn't need the book indicators of a hit song, they already had star power surrounding them before it was ever released.

Try writing a song that keeps a listener engaged for 7 minutes with no chorus

What the song does is build and build, and it's just great, that's all that's to it.

If somebody were to post stairway completely like the release, nobody would be saying it needed a chorus, because it would be obvious the song is great.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/11/18 11:40 AM.
#1143743 - 08/11/18 11:43 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Don't Blink is a yawn. Stairway to Heaven is timeless. And I've yet to see a Jason Blume aficionado who could write.

#1143744 - 08/11/18 11:44 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Some music is just visceral Fd.

First time I heard it was when it came out, around 50 years ago.
I have never gotten tired of it. To this day if I am scanning stations in the truck for something and stairway comes on, it will beat anything that I've ever heard for my attention.

Listened to it start to finish on Thursday.

But Nashville would toss it in the trash,

Martin

#1143745 - 08/11/18 11:47 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Don't Blink is a yawn. Stairway to Heaven is timeless. And I've yet to see a Jason Blume aficionado who could write.


Don't blink was a well-written thematic song intended to capture some of the "Bull named Fu man chu" action...I suspect.
And it did well, yet was slammed on an amateur site before they heard it on the radio, if the legend is true.

#1143746 - 08/11/18 11:54 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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I remember the thread although I didn't participate. It's a third generation Xerox hack of Live Like You Were Dying which no one I know has ever heard of. It's been completely forgotten. It's got Nashville polish and that's it.

#1143747 - 08/11/18 11:55 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Nashville would throw it in the trash, but you wouldn't pitch stairway to heaven...to anyone, let alone Nashville..

Even if I don't understand the lyric, it' still great

Some of the greatest songs, at least some of my favorites, don't have clear lyrics that say, this is what this is about. There is no rule that says a song has to be about one thing, or about anything at all. It just has to engage you, take you somewhere.

A lot of rock music is artistic, where you if you put 100 people In a room with some art work, all 100 may have a different view of what it means. That's true art in my mind



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/11/18 11:56 AM.
#1143749 - 08/11/18 12:10 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
I remember the thread although I didn't participate. It's a third generation Xerox hack of Live Like You Were Dying which no one I know has ever heard of. It's been completely forgotten. It's got Nashville polish and that's it.




You can argue it that way and get takers.

I like you Robert and because I do, I'm going to help you with some clarity in your world. If you think that "Don't Blink" was a bad song...you are wrong. Simply wrong. Absolutely Wrong. Hopelessly wrong. It was a good song. Maybe a re-hash of a theme, but emotion evoking, lyrically flowing and pleasant to listen to. Arguably not a masterpiece, but inarguably "good" to an open mind.

You may not like it because it is a song that you did not write, but that's no basis for anything beyond your emotional disposition.

I hope this helps you move towards the light. wink

And right...I said a bull names fumanchu. The precedent song was...live like you were dying.

#1143750 - 08/11/18 12:13 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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I think maybe there is a tendency to overestimate the sophistication of the audience or at least their hunger for sophisticated lyrics. "Don't Blink" comes pretty close to making me retch. It's hackneyed, emotionally exploitative in a sledgehammer kind of way - and a huge hit! Sometimes a simple sentiment purveyed as a kind of audio Hallmark card is just what the audience wants. It's probably the reason why most people either love or hate country music.

#1143751 - 08/11/18 12:22 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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I never heard the song, better go listen.

Well one thing, there are songs written just to be great songs. Others to be in the market wheelhouse.

I guess if you can figure out how to have a hit, you did something right.

But I always thought of Nasville writing as more of a puzzle needing to be solved.

But in every area of music, there is the idea of market involved.

Some is just more cookie cutter and less art.

Art is art, money is money

#1143752 - 08/11/18 12:27 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
I think maybe there is a tendency to overestimate the sophistication of the audience or at least their hunger for sophisticated lyrics. "Don't Blink" comes pretty close to making me retch. It's hackneyed, emotionally exploitative in a sledgehammer kind of way - and a huge hit! Sometimes a simple sentiment purveyed as a kind of audio Hallmark card is just what the audience wants. It's probably the reason why most people either love or hate country music.


It drips with sappy. It's a contrived and by-the-numbers, bald-faced emotion play. Not on my playlist either.

But well done for what it is.


#1143753 - 08/11/18 12:30 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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First of all... thanks to everyone who has stopped by for a listen and comments...
that I have not acknowledged - Mike, J&B, Martin, Dave, Ricki, Travis... Thanks - there have been interesting perspectives all around.

I thought this was done, but apparently, not. And that's okay. It gets a little more interesting all the time.

I have NO problem having people critique my songs. I have no problem them not liking my songs - though they could be civil about it, especially if they claim to be a professional.

I don't have a problem with Robert (couchgrouch) giving his opinion about how he thinks it should be written - it is his opinion. He called it unbelievable. Not plausible. Doesn't work. I disagree with that for reasons that I've tried to explain. And I think that horse has been beat plenty.

Robert has only ever stepped into one of my threads once before.
It had nothing to do with my song.
He was continuing an argument he was having with SOME OTHER WRITER about songs that THEY had written (by the same name, I think). And it went on for several posts. None of which had anything to do with my song - in my thread. So, you must forgive me if I take "I was only trying to help" with a grain of salt...

But, again, I don't mind having people express opinions (good or bad) on my songs.
I am comfortable in my skill as a writer (and producer, for that matter).
Everything I put into a song is thought out. Every word, every phrase. (Sometimes that is as much about melody and rhythm as it is about lyric - it is SONG writing, after all).
So when I get comments about a line needing more syllables or needs to be worded "like this..." I do consider what is said - but I've already thought through how I think it should fall on the ear...

Regardless of what some might think, I can take it on the chin with the best of them.
I spent 15 years in Nashville. I had plenty of publisher meetings where my songs were beat to hell - though more often than not, they don't tell you anything other than, "That isn't what I'm looking for" - generally after 45 seconds. In my early years, I got beat up. A lot.

By the end, though, I had written with a number of top writers - guys with multiple #1's. I played rounds at the Bluebird with them... I have had dozens of songs published and pitched by the top publishers (Sony/Tree, Polygram, BMG, Almo-Irving, Starstuck, Millhouse...). All were pitched well, a couple were put on hold by top acts at the time. There is a lot more to my story, but I'm not here to rehash that. I've never even approached that discussion here - but this thread has made me feel like I needed to put at least some of that out. You might not think I do things the way they need to be done. There have been those who do (or did - much of this was through the 90's when pitching songs was still viable). I was offered a staff job, but it ended up falling through (much like the story MAB tells).

Little of that world remains. I am not pitching songs. I am writing and producing for the enjoyment of it. I love it. I share my work in the hopes that others might like it. But...they don't have to. This song was an old lyric - been sitting around for years. Not my usual kind of stuff - and not one that I ever really cared for, for that matter. It was more about the production this time. Never thought it would turn into such a fire...



Y'all can go back to comparing me to Led Zeppelin, now....


#1143776 - 08/12/18 04:15 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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Floyd,

Well, it’s an interesting debate above, though not one I’m inclined to participate in. Some fair points on all sides—but we all know music is subjective—what works for some, won’t for others, and it's all good.

Anyways, for me, the lyrics work fine and it’s a strong production. And if the latter was your indeed aim, then consider the target hit. While I'll confess it's not among my favorites that I’ve heard from you, it’s still a strong offering and I enjoyed the listen.

All the best,

Deej

#1143794 - 08/12/18 07:50 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
True Marty, but I don't revere Jason Blum

when somebody is in Led Zeppelin, nobody tells them to change anything because Led Zeppelin is performing it.

But even so, nobody here has written anything remotely close to stairway to heaven, lyrically or melodically, or musicially. And nobody here has performed the song anyway near that.

It doesn't need the book indicators of a hit song, they already had star power surrounding them before it was ever released.

Try writing a song that keeps a listener engaged for 7 minutes with no chorus

What the song does is build and build, and it's just great, that's all that's to it.

If somebody were to post stairway completely like the release, nobody would be saying it needed a chorus, because it would be obvious the song is great.


One obvious disagreement with you here Fdemetrio. Randy California, from Spirit, has written something extremely close to Stairway to Heaven. In fact, many would say he did write it smile

Oops ... after posting this, I saw that your comment is limited to "anyone here." As Randy California is not a member of this site, unless appearing in ghostly fashion, as he is long deceased, i stand corrected. smile

Last edited by GocartMoz; 08/12/18 07:56 PM.
#1143796 - 08/12/18 08:04 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Cheyenne]  
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[quote=Cheyenne]
If someone can tell me why this is a well written song ,I would welcome their

opinion,but I would never agree with it


I found the whole recording quite painful to listen to.
[quote]

I am all for honest critiques. That being said, the above is just rude and not helpful by any measure. Frankly, I question if it just wasn't trolling. Floyd could sing the phone book and it would be engaging. Granted, it wouldn't be a very good song, but it sure wouldn't be painful to listen to.

In my first comments on this tune, I had not read the other comments. I came back to the thread to have a second listen because I liked the song so much and first learned of the controversy upon my return. I can honestly say this is among my favorites of Floyd's. To each his own, for sure. Painful to listen to though? That is just silly!!!

#1143797 - 08/12/18 08:14 PM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: floyd jane]  
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GoCart, even if Zeppelin stole from spirit, which they didn't, the probably stole it from classical composers which the judge deemed. But even if they did, spirit didn't even come close to writing stairway to heaven...and they wrote it?

Stairway to heaven is an epic journey that will continue to stop people in their tracks.

Spirit?

But yeah, I did clarify that any of us should be so fortunate to have been involved in stairway to heaven. Once in a generation song.

Sorry Floyd!



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/12/18 08:15 PM.
#1143806 - 08/13/18 11:11 AM Re: Live By The Gun [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
GoCart, even if Zeppelin stole from spirit, which they didn't, the probably stole it from classical composers which the judge deemed. But even if they did, spirit didn't even come close to writing stairway to heaven...and they wrote it?

Stairway to heaven is an epic journey that will continue to stop people in their tracks.

Spirit?

But yeah, I did clarify that any of us should be so fortunate to have been involved in stairway to heaven. Once in a generation song.

Sorry Floyd!




Personally, I think that LZ did steal the opening phrase from Spirit. With an alteration. The alteration apparently makes it not legally a lift but I do not think that Stairway would exist if Page never heard Spirit prior to writing it. I read that they toured with them prior to Stairway. The music sounds too close to be coincidental. It's on youtube as a mash-up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-81X3T6CC2U

It was adjudicated and found by one jury and or judge not to be stolen. Does not mean another one would find the same way. And does not mean that it was not stolen.

In spite of the fact that I think that Page lifted it and in spite of an undying rumor that Page held an underage girl in his house as a willing hostage to avoid prosecution for having sex with her...I love Stairway. I don't think that I would want to spend any time around the members of LZ but love that song anyway.

I apologize for running completely off with your thread Floyd. FWIW...I think that Gocart is wrong. Your song is just as good as Stairway. wink



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