JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Are Our Ranks Shrinking?

But isn't this and other similar forums a part of the social media family?

Hi Beechnut: Reminds me of my youth, playing baseball and trying to keep up with my peers by stuffing a glob of beechnut scrap tobacco in my cheek while on the field. About that time, I was blindsided by a shot to the gut by an errant baseball, swallowed involuntarily, and never used that stuff again. Must have been sick for three days! LOL!

Thanks for your comments. Insightful and pretty well "spot on."

Now that we know Ray Strode is "A Royal"... I'll be sure to do a "head-bob" curtsey when he is in our presence! LOL! Genealogy is a great and time consuming hobby... but it is only interesting to the one who happens to be climbing the tree. My wife wishes I'd give it (and music) up for something more productive and useful! She's probably right.

All the best, ----Dave

Yeah Beechnut, this was the prototype of social media. Its what social media started as... people with similar interest convening on forums. Meanwhile people not interested were emailing their friends instead.

Social Media like Facebook and Twitter, and others made it so that people could connect with anybody they know...or many they don't know.

The conversation changed from....Do you like my new song? Do you like my new craftwork? Has anybody here tried Vitamin D for arthritis? Why was Jesus weeping when Lazarous died? Political forums, Mutual interest topics etc (btw, we get most of that here as well)

To..... I'm going over to Jose Tejas for some burritos, will take pictures and post them as soon as the meal hits the table....

Basicly, it's changed from meeting new people online, to re-finding old people, and people u already know, to talk about your lives.

I'm guessing that facebook with all the, he knows u, so she knows him, and they know her, have created more "matches" than eharmony.com

A quick glance at all the divorced women on facebook, makes u think it would be alot easier getting a date from one of them who already knows u than a complete stranger

What happens though is if you are a songwriter, not everybody u know is a songwriter. In fact the vast majority of facebook friends are old classmates and co workers.

So u cant say. Here is my new lyric, let me know what u think....Cause it excludes most people on your list who don't care or have no idea what your even talking about

Some of my friends are sports junkies, some are poker and craps players, some are musicians, but almost none of them are songwriters, and the vast majority are married couples who are more concerned with their kids teeth growing in correctly, than they are analyzing your song

It's gone from specialty to universal, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

I was a frequent poster on the Alternet political forum as well, but now they are so fixated on Trump that they don't seem to have any room or inclination for discussing anything else. They used to have some very good dialogues on the pathologies of Main Street USA, but very seldom do now.

I have non hodgkin's lymphoma and belong to 3 different facebook groups and it is great. I get a lot of friendship and support and education and I also give out lots of advice too. I have made a lot of really great friends from all over the world and even share my songs with them sometimes.....I LOVE Facebook...

"Is it Don Henlys creativity that created those classic guitar solos at the end of hotel California? Do you think they are just jamming nonsensically?"

I hate to be persnicity here, but Don Henly didn't really have anything to do with the guitar solos at the end of "Hotel California." It was actually a four track work tape that Don Felder had for a couple of years before Henley and Frey put the words down. The guitar solos for the most part as well as all the music was his. When they recorded it, Joe Walsh took what he had already done and added his own flourishes on it. But they all took months to work out, so it was not just "random jamming."

Some things in that era were discovered by mistake and jamming, but by the time it got to tape had been worked out meticulously over a period of time.
I agree with a lot of that post, this is just one part I know a bit about.

Marc, you actually agree with even more then. I used exactly what you said as an example of "being creative". Henley wrote the song and lyric, but Walsh and felder had to use their own creativity to contribute to the recording and arrangement of it.

So everybody involved in that record was "creative"

It definitely wasn't random jamming, not knowing anythjng about it per se, I could tell you by listening to it that it was not improvised and well thought out. Actually, even improvising requires much creativty.

So everybody involved in that track used creativity, anybody who plays an instrument and starts noodling on it is using their creativity. Somebody overdubbing background vocals can be using creativity if using their own ideas

That was one song, from one group, and one producer, I assume, and one engineer, and they all had creativty.

Now multiple that by billions of songs, billions of artists, professional or hack, from the beginning of popular music to today. From musical masters to kids learning how to solo over a chord progression during lessons. Millions of songwriters and lyricists

Creativity is not rare at all. its not restricted to songwriting either. Are there varying levels of creative people yes.

And I'd rather have a creative band than a technical band.

I would rather have both... a creative and a tech band... LOL! Ain't happening, Baby! But we can dream. Given a one way choice... you bet, Creativity trumps it all. Thanks for the informative "background story" Marc (Mr. Insider) 'cause the rest of us will never possess your perspective.

Thanks to everyone else who commented, shared war stories... and a bit of levity along the way.

Have a great week, boys and girls. ----Dave

Creativity is important in Many Fields. I always wonder why some more creative minds aren't used in curing diseases like cancer. They have Big Pharma doing the same thing over and again using Left Brained Scientist who are not outside the box thinkers. SO creative thinkers and doers are in every field. That saying it is a Gift...

That's exactly right Barry. As regimented and pragmatic, and dogmatic the medical field is, there is still alot of "what if i tried this" and that is why some doctors have better results than others. Absolutely, even a dog can be creative. "If i leap from this angle, as soon as my eye catches the piece of chicken falling from the table, maybe i can get that".

In fact, creativity is what made us what we are

https://www.educationdive.com/press-release/20170515-creativity-its-what-makes-us-human/

Great Article. This is pre programmed in our DNA and then it's up to us to use and develop it or not.

"Marc, you actually agree with even more then. I used exactly what you said as an example of "being creative". Henley wrote the song and lyric, but Walsh and felder had to use their own creativity to contribute to the recording and arrangement of it."

PS: Henly and Frey just wrote the LYRICS on the song. The music on the song itself was totally Don Felder.

What am I agreeing with? LOL! I just was setting the record straight on one song. I know that one because I'm an Eagles fanatic, have read about all of their biographies and actually had a quick conversation with Don Felder once.

I thought we were talking about shrinking ranks on songwriter web sites.

If you are talking about creativity, that is something that has to be nurtured and the best have it .But it also has to be followed up with another essential thing, DISCIPLINE. Being creative is fine, but you can lose things quicker than it comes to you., if you don't have the discipline to write it down, get it recorded, and have a system to FOCUS the creativity. That is where a "technical application" has to come in.
Without some form of discipline and follow through, all the creativity in the world will simply get lost in the moment.

As far as what that has to do with dwindling numbers, I don't really know but that's my opinion. Worth what you paid for it.

MAB

It has nothing to do with dwindling numbers...that was a point i made as well.

No, it sounded like u were saying something different about the Eagles song. What i said originally to Couch was do u think Henley's creativity only made the song what it was? Other people put their creative juices in there too. Creativity is wide spread, if four guys in one band, and all the people working with them have it, just talking super groups alone, that would be enough to say its not rare. But there are many other millions of creative people out there famous or not

Rare is finding a needle in a haystack, rare is hitting the mega lottery. There are alot more creative people in the world than people who have won the lottery

I said that what u said didn't contradict me, u reinforced my thought

We all have creativity, some are clearly more gifted. Some work alot harder than the next guy, but that was my point, its not about people coming here thinking they are good, and people telling them they are good....that doesnt help the nurturing for sure, but its not because people are not creative that they end up on this forum

Some stink some are really good, that's life in general

Let me add that alot of the people here, and i dont mean all, but many, are not "in it to win it" they are not writing as if their life depended on it, and not trying to work so hard at it.

Alot of it is just force of habit. Let me write something today.

Maybe the expectation of everybody who posts here must be seriously considering a cut, and are just not creative enough to write something good, is a wrong expectation

When Couchgrouch writes something, you can tell he worked enormously hard on it, and writing in general. Maybe its not as much creative talent as it is taking it to the woodshed. Of course hes going to stand out against people who just scratch the surface. I wouldnt say those people werent creative, Id more say that they didnt care that much about being good or doing anything with it.

If you settle for the first thing that pops out at u, and writing it down, maybe u didnt want to write a song at all, u just wanted something to post.

Fdmenetero? (man I wish people would sign their names so I know who I am talking to)

Sorry I guess I missed that part of the thread. I try to read all these but they go on for a while, and I might miss some.

The Eagles, The Beatles, Stones, etc most supergroups, usually have multiple very talented people involved. But the real place the "rubber hits the road": is what they do separately as well as together. In the case of Henley, Frey, Timothy B. Schmidt, they ALL had successful solo careers as well as a group. The really huge ones were Henley and Frey, who not only had enormous solo careers AFTER the Eagles, but kept the Brand alive during their 14 years of Hiatus. Joe Walsh was tremendously successful before the Eagles in his own right and Schmidt was a member of POCO, which was one of the founders of country rock music.
Felder was successful in his own right but never matched his output with the Eagles, which is a part of the bone of contention that came up after the reunion and subsequent successes, leading to his firing.

So I think all of these things come into play, not to mention their manager, IRV AZOFF, who is one of the most ruthless managers in the history of rock music. His guidance really kept them in everyone's face their entire career.

Creative people can burn out or fall apart easily. You can look at so many of them, most notably to me, would be BRIAN WILSON of the BEACH BOYS. He most assuredly was the brain behind almost everything of theirs, yet, fell apart due to his own personal demons. Without him, they never achieved what they did with him.

So, yes everyone plays a part, but creativity can take different pathways with different people.

MAB

Pete Townshend was clearly the creative force behind The Who, Jimi Page was the man behind Led Zeppelin.

But the comment made, creative people are rare, which is what were focusing on, is rediculous.

Our ranks may be shrinking but I'll bet our total weight is up.

I went on a carb diet and lost like 25 lbs. I miss chips. Oh and oreos. How can i forget the oreos.

The thing about creativity is that it takes practice - just like anything else. Rare is the person who does not practice and yet is gifted with ability. All of the famous musicians mentioned in this thread practiced to get where they got. Luck and determination helped.
Practice in writing music is the same as practice in playing guitar. If you only play the same song over and over, or songs with the same 3 chords, that's not practice. Practice is an intentional effort to stretch and improve a skill set.

I help with a songs in progress workshop every month and one of the first questions we ask is "what were you trying to do?". Sometimes they don't know or get upset because we mention a structural flaw in the song. The over all concept is to help them succeed in finishing what they wanted to do - or just say "that's nice" if that was what they were looking for. One of the guys running it makes the statement "I can write a good song about a bottle of water because I know the rules of the craft". Which puts some folks off because they thought it was like a gift from God.

Sadly I think the music pushed on the public has gone the way of art.
https://www.prageru.com/videos/why-modern-art-so-bad

The numbers may be dwindling on the critique pages because either the youngsters don't feel the need to practice or the older folks think they practiced enough to get by. Losing some of the more prolific posters has obviously had an effect.

People can get instant feedback from real music listeners on social media sites. And if you can tell everyone on your Facebook page to listen to your new song, they might do it. If they know U they probably will say it's good regardless, but music listeners don't critique, they don't know how, they just listen. Some writers prefer that.

Here it's the same 15 people all the time, writing comments because it's part of the game. And nobody ever says something bad, it's all good all day and night. And the one guy who tries to play devils advocate runs into to friction.

I agree that 9 out of 10 lyrics here are of the "so what" variety.

I do know that if I see something really good, sometimes I may miss them too, but if I do see something really good I'm usually in there.

I don't really go in there when something is really bad, because it usually gets people mad.

But I think if people stopped bsing each other, it would be more intriguing to post, and if u do get knocked, it may bring u back stronger the next post

I don't think most people here really believe the comments they get

Everything can't be good, and it's pretty obvious that u want people to listen to yours and tell u your good if u say the same stuff to them.

Not so fast, old pal DeMetrio... I don't post my songs here at JPF unless somebody has been paid to do a demo for me. I do take time to respond to writers with potential. There are lots of folks who critique with the idea of encouraging a "newbie" without stepping all over their ego or getting "snarky." I agree with you, way to much false praise gets passed out on this and other sites... but nobody cares for a scalding review... even if the lyric, song or composition is not "up to snuff." We've all seen guys or gals melt into the woodwork because of a bad or unkind review. Like you, I usually avoid those posts that exhibit no talent or potential.

The folks who get scalding reviews usually don't return to JPF or stay silent as lurkers.

In all honesty, I had a Publisher out on the West Coast and she would rake me over the coals with her reviews... and I felt so intimidated. After a few years, I realized she had done me a real favor for being so honest with me... but her critiques were free and private... usually in the form of a rejection. I wish I could thank her for helping me to improve. (I still have a long way to go... but she really was a professional.)

Hi Doug:

Glad you joined in. Best wishes for success and helping to create tomorrow's song-writers out there in Arizona. You hit the nail on the head with your post.

Well it depends what type personality you have I guess Dave. When somebody insults me, i take it as a challenge. I can see some people getting discouraged and leaving

Maybe have a section strictly for brutally honest critiques.

But you cant assume that because somebody is new to the forum they are new to songwriting. There are people here for short times who write better stuff than people here for a long time.

I think asking for crits once your demo is paid for is backwards, how willing will u be to change something after its done already?

Hi FD:

You make some valid points. A Brutally Honest Critique Section might be workable but only Brian can consider such an option.

Yes, insults do play differently in the "brain of each beholder" and reactions can be all over the map.

New to the forum indeed, does not mean "new to music and all it's attendant baggage"... LOL! There are people who have never been here and will never bother to be here because they write better "stuff" than any of us. (That's why we are here and they are there! IMHO)

I don't ask for crits on the demos I've had done by others... I have them posted here for shameless self-promotion... LOL! The only person deciding on changes would be me... or an artist who heard it and had enough "star-power" to ask for a change here or there. (I doubt if many "Majors" spend time here with us... they have "people" for that!)

Thanks, as always, for your insightful perspective... you always "light up the boards" and that is a healthy thing.

All the best, ----Dave

Just for the record. Every song I've posted was done before I joined.
I'm slow about the next for various reasons (I swear are legit). :-)

I for one am not shying away from posting more, I just ran out.

Creative people are rare. The Eagles were a great band. Great bands are rare. Henley and Frey were the driving forces behind that band, yet they all shined to one degree or another, esp on that one song. If creativity wasn't rare, you wouldn't be pointing to a forty year old song to make your point. You'd be offering up numerous examples of songs as good as Hotel California from 2018. Which you can't do. Why? Because creativity is rare. These sites have stagnated for that very reason, among others.

It's not rare Couch. You are creative aren't you? Didn't have to go very far to spot you. I used the Eagles song, yes because its great, so that nobody would change the argument, saying it's not very good. Its well established that it is.

Are you saying Dave Grohl, Jack White, Gary Clark Jr, Bruno Mars, John Mayer, Green Day, Arcade Fire, and many of that ilk are not creative? As in zero Creativity? Hoping u have the right answer

Were not talking about who are the greats of all time. We're talking about creativity in general, plus u need to factor in taste

None of these undergrounders have any creative talent?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qKjUeGji78

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4MSFhIbAJA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAN9dfBKG5s

Hi Guys:

I wonder if we are talking about "creativity" the wrong way... LOL! Perhaps we should be talking about degrees of creativity on a scale of at least one to ten. (I might make it to a one!) ...and yes, FD... personal taste in music, art, architecture, etc. must be factored-in to some degree. Whether or not it sells like crazy or charts (back to music) are part of the process we tend to read about most.

I'm glad to see the Eagles mentioned so often in so many posts. I've enjoyed them for quite some time now. Henley has a cabin on Caddo Lake not far from my brother's place.

Thanks for your input and thoughts. ----Dave

Zero creativity? That's offering me a false choice. I think they've got some midiclorines...hust not enough to be a Jedi. Hotel California is monumental. I think it's beyond the talents of those you mentioned.

You put me in an awkward position of using myself as an example. But if everyone on JPF was equally talented, I wouldn't have been easy to spot, I would have blended in.
The fact is, these sites aren't as popular as they once were
and several have shut down. Not everyone can write or compose. Many can mimic the mechanics. But they produce the same work in 2018 that they did 1998. The sites stagnated and dwindled.

My views on talent and creativity just aren't that important.
People would be much better off demonstrating creativity
than arguing about who has it and why.

Yes Dave, I suggested many times that there are degrees, and people deciding what the degrees are also have varying opinions and tastes.

Couch you said it, not me, that few people are creative, and it's pretty obvious u include yourself in that group. Unfortunately, its not true, there are millions of creative musicians In the world, but it also depends on who is assessing it

Ps, maybe I can spot u because u have been here longer than the dinosaurs and post something nearly every day? Or at least used to?

I demonstrated by listing names and posting music. Tell me why they are not?

It’s difficult to separated creativity from music influences. Everything from Beethoven to Gershwin to the Beatles, etc., adds to our creations. Thinking outside the box? The box is rather crowded and confined. Music consists of 12 half-tones and their octaves. Unless you’re into quarter-tone music. And then there are only so many tones that can be heard (and differentiated from tone to tone) by the human ear. And there are only so many song lyrical concepts (not to mention useable words).

Genres? If you want to compose in a certain genre, whether it be Country, Pop, Rap, Classical, Jazz, etc., music possibilities are even more limited. Maybe that’s why I prefer film music. Film music is open to anything, including the blending of different genres. Though film music still exists within the box.

I would bet that 90% of what we call creativity really comes from music influences. I’ve composed music in the style of some of the great composers. Creative in that they won’t be confused with previous composed music (different melodies, arrangements, altered harmonies). Not creative in the sense of using another’s style (which was probably influenced by previous music).

So, we journey on, adding our tiny creative morsels to the already colossal contributions from the past. At least until we all realized we’ve been duped into believing we’re creative musicians. Jeez, now I’m depressed. I think I’ll compose something in the style of Gershwin.


John

I won't argue with that John. Maybe there is a subgroup under creativty called, uniqueness. But you can also be uniquely bad too.

At the end of the day it comes down to one thing. Does anybody like this?

Dave's question was "Are our ranks shrinking ?",

So, in response to the question I would have to say "No". In fact creativity now has an open option where one is not constrained by the cost of producing musical art.

Slight problem there, in that the untrained "demand' to have their work heard without the requisite training and skill. And they then get annoyed and think they have an equal footing with those who have studied the subject. If you've ever studied any subject, you will always realise that you DON"T know a lot about it, and study more. Some simply wish to receive recognition for nothingness.

This just creates white noise where the exceptionally talented have to battle through.

I have a reasonable understanding of music, and just love being blown away by pure talent that I could never be, or achieve.

Therefor Dave, no the ranks are not shrinking, just the ranks of snowflakes whom are too precious for their own lunchtime.

cheers, niteshift

Hi Friend Shifty: (Geoff)

I don't think I've heard things lately that reach straight to the point... and then say it so eloquently. Speaking of "Snowflakes," I recall several years ago being a bit upset by this insistent newbie who kept asking me to listen to his songs. I did my best to remind him that I had a list of others who'd made the same request... and that he would have to wait his turn. Problem is, I don't think I said it with the best "Queen's Manners" and I've always regretted that. He got upset and called me every dirty name in the books (written and yet unwritten) and even though I was trying to do the right thing... I did it the wrong way... and have always regretted that. I missed an opportunity to respond politely... or even better, not respond at all because he was probably "broadcasting" the same request to everyone in the free world. LOL! More to the point, I may have missed an opportunity to listen to one of those talent's you mentioned... because after his peeved rant, I never heard a single note of his "masterpiece." Sad!

You are 100% correct about enjoying being "blown away" by hearing/discovering pure talent I will never be able to reach or match with my significantly flawed vocal chords. Doesn't keep an old fool from trying, though. Great to hear from you. I wish we were in time zones a bit closer. I'm writing this in my today... but it's already your yesterday "down-under."

Be well and keep an eye out for wandering Wallabees.

All the best, ----Dave

Just because the mediums exist, doesn't mean the average Joe is able to take advantage of it. Majority of people here are lucky if they get more than a few dozen youtube hits. IF they were able to get a few million through someway they would have some fans, no doubt about it

Songwriting sites, u just ask other songwriters to listen

There has always been good, bad and indfferent talent both famous and not famous in music. And the most talented often never get anywhere.

People log into facebook because its there. Not because they suddenly became social people who like to share their life

People write on forums because its there, if it wasn't, they probably would be doing something else. Aside from the real serious people

People just get burned out of it, they get tired of the same people saying nice job. Thats all it is.

And how many songs are you going to write? thousands? Eventually u say ok i have enough songs that I know what to do with. Maybe i should spend some time with my family....

Hey Dave, always good to have a chat with you.

Yes, good thing about living in tomorrow, is that if you're really quick, you can fly backwards to LA and live part of the day all over again.

As per wallabies, hit one of the damn things a month back. Absolutely wrecked my front bumper, and it didn't do the wallaby much good either ( road kill ) And in suburban Sydney too. They love golf courses, of which we have a few.

Glad my comments tickled your fancy, and it would be great to have a natter with you over a good slow roasted Texas barbecue ( with beer of course ) Later mate.....

cheers, niteshift

We just had a little reunion of old JPFer's this past Thursday evening. We played at a great little bistro in Clarence, NY called Penny Lane. We played from7-9PM. There were only about 9 of us, there was a band of 4 people so we all got a 20 minute set. It was good to see the old crew and commiserate with other like minded folks. We're going to do it again in about 6 month, I hope. It'll probably grow once the word gets out. Y 'all should try it. Thanks to John Kloberdanz for doing all the organizing.

That's fantastic, Rick:

Re-uniting a group of folks with a common connection like JPF has to be a grand thing... especially if the combination of chemistry, crowd pleasing charm and talent all coincide. A 20 minute set can seem like an eternity considering you may not have practiced or played together in a while. Bravo.

Glad to hear you are going to "re-convene" in about 6 months. See if you can bribe somebody to video the event and share it with us... if it isn't too much of a pain in the posterior. Think of the interest it will generate here... and we need that going for us during these troubled times. Special thanks to John Kloberdanz for doing all the prep work. A thankless but sometimes rewarding task, indeed.

Thanks for sharing this news and congratulations to all. I would love to have had a front row seat.

All the best, ----Dave

I think Dave should have his answer to this thread by now.

He's funny overiding comments as if he knows anything.

Ru-Ro

Hi FD:

Yep, I got the answer last night. Funny how that works. Glad you believe my comments are funny... that is exactly how they are intended to be. Don't know much about knowing anything, though. I didn't do well in school... but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express more than once. It dawns on me... I may have unintentionally hurt your feelings. I'll be asking Roseanne for advice but it sure looks like ABC (the moral authority for American News and Entertainment) took offense at her latest tweet. Maybe now, she will be bored out of her gourd and join us here at JPF, trolling along like many of us.

Be well, ----Dave

There are millions of creative musicians in the world. That's doubtful and unprovable, but even if true, there are BILLIONS of people in the world. Creativity is rare, at least to the degree that would keep me listening to an artist's songs for decades(Jack White didn't keep me listening for hours), or, apparently, keep people interested in internet music/lyric sites over time.

One thing that would help me personally be more creative...not spending time on all those links, then explaining one by one my opinion of them. Writing a novel takes alot of time and thought. Spending less time on the internet until you actually have something worth revealing to the world(or migrating to Nashville for) would possibly increase the quality of music. Kanye and TI's pooped out rap about Trump? Not very creative.

Couch, the point of it all was what you think is creative or not is not a fact, it's just what you think. Does everything you listen to have to be the greatest song of all time? Can't you passively like a song?

I happen to think Jack White is very creative, and I'm sure many would agree with me, and many may not. I watched him on snl and was inpressed, just what he does on guitar alone to me is creative, not necessarily great musicianship, but great creativity. The sound, the attack, listen to the guitar solo, it's not something u will hear every day by everyone, and the tune and the arrangement it's certainly different.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQI_x-eQgEw

And I disagree 7 nation army will be around along time because it's a stadium anthem and the crowds love chanting with it at ball games. That riff as simple as it is took creativity, much like Richards satisfaction riff, very Comparible.

But I'm not wanting to make u think Jack White is creative, just to let u see another side of the story.

Where I will agree with you, is that people should not post every [naughty word removed] thing they write, as it weakens the bar and changes how the forum is perceived

But then again, how do they know it's [naughty word removed] unless somebody tells them?

Jack White never has and never will write a Satisfaction. Or a Paint It Black, Ruby Tuesday, Midnight Rambler etc, etc. Hell, he's never gonna write a Backstreet Girl. I do like Rome, though. I don't know how big a hand he had in that. It's one of the very few modern records I like.

I'm gonna go full Starbuck's and honor your truth. Everybody has talent and everybody's kid deserves a trophy. These sites are atrophying because they're bursting with new ideas.

Was speaking of the guitar riff, if u think satisfaction as a guitar rif is light years ahead of 7 nation army I don't know what to tell ya. Keith was snoring when he was writing it great pop song for sure, but as far as creativty, which is your argument, da da da dada dadadada

Was talking about creativity, not if Jack white was better than the stones

Yeah go to Starbucks, and pretend you know everything there is to know about music, maybe somebody can remove that cement mental block from your head.

If it's not old, it's not good..... So retire then. Complaining does nothing

Check please!

Dear Hi-Jackers:

You have managed to stray so far from the Gist of this thread, I'm going to ask Admin to close and lock the door on this one. Are our ranks shrinking?... Heck Yes! Every music website for creative types (not fans) is shrinking, starving, dying of thirst and withering away. Let's hope this doesn't happen here. Brian has made a couple of reasonable request to help solve that problem for JPF. Hopefully, your discussion will fit better over there... or, just create your own "Creativity" thread. LOL!

Thanks for making things interesting, though! ----Dave

Dave,

It has gotten pretty far off the mark. In my opinion what we are seeing is shriking ranks of anyone trying to FIND OUT HOW TO DO THIS. They have no need for songwriter's web sites, because they can write what they want, put it on the Internet and get views and likes. They are totally self absorbed and there is not even any acknowledgement of anyone else. If it is not about THEM, it doesn't exist.

It's as much as the "Snowflakes" are acting. Entitled, demanding and ego filled. With very little to have an ego about. But it is all relative, so they have no interest in anyone else's opinion that doesn't echo their own.

So yes, our ranks are shrinking, while the ranks of writers, artists, poets, authors, etc, are increasing ten, twenty and fifty fold every few days. The more interesting thing is that now, the CREATORS (using that loosely) are outnumbering the LISTENERS or CONSUMERS.

Make something where everyone can do it, you are going to lose people who want to actually LEARN how to do it.

MAB

Well said, Marc:

Thanks for all the insider input you keep sharing with us. I'm hoping our Buddy up in Ohio is behaving himself. (It doesn't cost much to dream... LOL!)

----Dave

Songwriting forums gave way to home recording enthusiasts. Cause it used to be about writing the song, then having it recorded. Now it's about recording it, and if a song happened to get in the way, that's fine. That's the main difference, and in such the likes of soundcloud has a pretty wide variety of talent levels and artists on there to share music with.

Either way, home recording didn't make people better artists, although I'd say that recording your own voice, teaches you about your voice. And can enhance your creativity, u learn by doing.

It's just more exciting listening to a full track than to read a lyric or a scratch demo of it. That's what really happened. And the vast majority of people were lyricists who didn't have that ability to record their own stuff, they needed collaborators, so their involved shrunk

But there's only 10 creative people in the world....

What's needed is a filtering mechanism, and self filtering doesn't cut it. Then a licence, to be ALLOWED to use the software once you can play three chords and warble out of tune. ( Oops, done the warbling bit ) "Tis much better to know what you don't know, than thinking that you do know ... about what you know ..... or don't.

cheers, niteshift