I've observed in the last few years... that songwriters and songwriting/collaboration sites appear to be dwindling. Additionally, their memberships appear to be shrinking proportionally. Is it caused by a societal change, economics, doors once open and inviting being closed to only a few... or is it something darker or deeper? What are your thoughts?

Disenchantment and little to no new fresh blood in the form of 20 somethings playing guitar?

We are "old school", Dave. "Songwriter's site" cater to an old idea of "how do I improve my writing skills" - generally in hopes of getting cuts.

"Today's" songwriters don't come at it the way we did. They simply turn on their camera phone, record the song and post it on Youtube. Instant release. Instant everything.

They don't come to these type sites to say "what do you think about this". They post on Soundcloud. And Facebook. And then they network. "Make sure to Like my new song!". Go listen to Songtradr - there are thousands of songwriters - posting away.... Those types sites are popping up daily. No one has time to DISCUSS songwriting...they need product!! Where's my phone!!!!

Floyd has it exactly right, but it is a WHOLE lot deeper and covers MUCH more than just shrinking web site attendance.

The Internet put everyone IN TO THE GAME. And took ALL the money OUT of the game. There are 30-60 million writers and artists out there, about a BILLION songs uploaded a month. Everyone is just totally consumed with THROWING things OUT THERE, without giving any thought to SHOULD IT BE OUT THERE?

The result is a huge drop off in talent, and abilities. It is like a bunch of 8th graders, just copied the latest thing they hear on the radio and do that. The songs are average to terrible, the performers are worse, if anyone can keep anyone's attention for more than 30 seconds they are doing great.

The public has all but tuned it out. They get endless music for free or almost nothing. Venues don't have to pay for anything because there are always endless people who will play for free or pay to play, because they have to.

Music is relative and what is good or bad is inconsequential. It's no longer in the forefront, it's in the background which is why no one is getting paid.

They come here to Nashville in enormous droves, about 500 a week. They get hit with reality in that there are hundreds of thousands just like them. They find out quickly that they are not as good as they think they are and the leave.

The latest thing in Nashville and coming to a town near you is venues charging people to perform. Just like social media, if you want a platform, you are going to pay for it. Places that are famous, like the Bluebird, have people lined up at 12:00 every day waiting to get in. Every show for the week sells out within 5 minutes on Monday morning.
Some people wait online for months trying to get tickets to the shows, much less performing on them. They plan their vacations around going to a show. We no longer ask "Is there anyone from out of town" when we play. WE ask "Is there anyone FROM IN TOWN?"

It's created ripples throughout this town and all over. Thirty years ago, LA started charging people to play. Forty years ago New York did it. Now it is here.

We are in the AMATUERIZATION of all entertainment. No one is studying the craft or networking, of course until it is too late, when they have already shot themselves in the foot by putting really crap up on the Internet. They have lost all people skills. Which is the most interesting thing because this business is ALL people skills.

So are the web site interest waning? You bet . And everything else is waning too. We are in an eight second attention span and it is the world of NICHEING. You find your own niche and always keep and expand that. Forget trying to be a "big star." You better ignite the world around you first.

Unfortunately, most will never realize that until it's too late and their careers are over before they start.

MAB

I've noticed it, too. I came on the internet in Feb. '99. I'd been writing for nearly 20 years by then as well as voraciously collecting records. I'd say it took me 12 years to write a single, decent piece that was cohesive and had meaning. In the interim, I was bad and I knew it. I had no commercial aspirations, i just wanted to be good. So I worked at it.

About a year after I came on the net I started getting contacted by composers, some from Europe. They all said that songwriting sites were a wasteland. There's very little sense of getting better. There used to be people who would post stuff daily, none of it had any chance of ever becoming a song at all, let alone one an artist would sing.

I say this only because the availability and convenience of making something public does NOT increase the talent of those who want it public. A very, very small percentage of people have creative talent. Those people are split up anong architects, dancers, painters, poets, composers etc.
The internet has not created more creativity, it just exposed mediocrity.

It's really easy to write a terrible lyric. (Ask any rapper). It takes talent plus years of devotion to write a good one, let alone a great one. Without that, these sites will be dinosaurs in a short time.

It has nothing to do with who is talented and who isn't. The question was asking why these sites are fading. Floyd had some good insights.

and Couch, it's not just about lyrics, lyrics are not songs. And your way off saying only a small percentage of people have creative talent.

You're not understanding what creative talent is. A guitar player who doesn't write songs at all, can have immense creative talent, so can a drummer, so can a jazz musician who plays standards. So can a recording engineer and producers.

You seem to be limiting creative talent to lyrics...

Let's put things in perspective first of all. Success in the music business has never been completely about musical talent. Remember talent comes in many forms, if singing talent was the only factor, Dylan would be garbage, and all the American idols would be legends. That's just an example.

I may agree that the Internet and tech, probably did inspire more and more people to give it a shot, and I definitly think these forums made more would be lyricists come out of the woodwork to try their hand at it.

But you have to consider that really good songwriters and artists, don't seek out forums that concentrate on making songs better, they think their stuff is what it is, and don't know this kind of thing exists.

I can mention 25 guys I know personally who have never been on a forum like this, or even been in soundclick or soundcloud for that matter.

Most of them go on Facebook to announce their next show, or perform on YouTube, not using the tech to make them stars, but using the tech to communicate with people.

Youtube doesn't make you creative, it basically asks the question.... Does anybody out there like my music?

Not sure who is thinking any different.

I don't think I'm better than even 1% of the people out there. if I were more delusional I'd make the number 10%.

All I can do is make the best music I can and hope something happens

Even some of the best artists out there needed a massive dose of luck and help, and even the worst artists needed the same thing.

The bottom line is there is not enough opportunities for even the best of the best.

So it's not about who's great or not, The Sex Pistols made a massive mark on music, and they "sucked"

Sometimes, it's just about being there and having something people want.

Um, yes,
I think I got a blurb much about the same thing from my former publisher when he called a while back. He has moved back to New York. Sometimes people contact him but want everything handed to them on a Silver Platter. It appears nobody is looking for material. One publisher I contacted in Nashville was accepting songs but wanted them E-Mailed to him. I think things are slow and will be that way for a while.

However rejoice my friends! Not all in lost. I can tell you things are really heating up on the Big Island out in Hawaii!

Sad but it is what it is. IF you are not a singer songwriter who can write both melody and words you are toast. You also have to have the equipment at home to record killer demos.
You can't fight it so either join in the new game or go fishing.

I'm not way off. I never said lyrics were songs but these sites are mostly about lyrics. Musicians who can play well but not interpret the material in an innovative way are skilled, not talented. Dylan is a great singer, he just has a lousy voice. Mariah Carey has a great voice but is a terrible
singer.

I said basically the same thing Marc did, I just said it as an active poster on these sites for nearly 20 years. Don't tell me what talent is, demonstrate it. Many of the sites I posted on 15 years ago are gone now. Stagnation. Being mutual admiration societies eventually killed them.

Good composers are rare and are a vanishing breed. Compare the opening credits of Superman: the Movie with whatever comic book movie is being released this week. The same goes for lyricists.

Talent is all subjective.

Wrong, and wrong again. how bout a demo maker who takes your lyric and not only adds music to it, but records and produces it, he has no creative talent? Isnt it his idea how he wants to attack the arrangement? Isn't it his idea what chord structure he used, what voicing, what melody he will sing, what melody he will use as a counter. It's all creativity deciding what environment will work best for each song. Yiu simply don't understand creativity if u think he's some kind of robot who takes your song and makes you look good.

Again, u don't understand what creative talent is.

Is it Don Henleys creativity that created those classic guitar solos at the end of hotel California? Do you think they are just jamming nonsensically?

Is it Pete Townshends creativty that made Keith Moon such an extraordinary drummer? Most rock drummers consider him one of the most creative rock drummers of all time, he didn't write songs....

George Martins creativty made alot of the Beatles stuff what they were. What do U think the guy gets hired as a producer and he suddenly has ideas? He didn't the day before he worked with the Beatles?

Bob Dylan is a prime example of the actual music not being everything. Dylan can carry a tune, why u say he is a great singer is beyond me. He has no range, a terrible tone, but he's able to effectively sing his own songs.

I wouldn't call Mariah Carey a terrible singer. I dont like her music, but if u can't hear how talented she is, then take up something else. Does vocal control, vocal runs, emotional resonance mean nothing? She could sing a Bob Dylan song, he couldn't sing one of hers.

Now does Bob have better writing chops and artistic fervor absolutely, but u have to be able to recognize talent. U don't seem to be able to.

Anybody who contributes to a great song, had creativity being used, not just the guy who wrote the damn lyrics.

Demonstrate it...ha. Not fair u write words on a paper

Peace, my children... LOL!

Few of us are "tuned to the same frequency" but most here have "be-fallen" to the "curse of the Muse." I really enjoyed Marc's expression: "The Age of the Amateur!" I also agree with Floyd. Perhaps we are going about it "all wrong!" If I had the answer, would I be here "babbling on about our shrinking numbers?" The "problem" is complex and none of us have the answer. It is hidden in the noise called "information overload." Looking for the needle in the music haystack is now a waste of time.

Sorry if I've opened old sores and wounds. I only wanted to confirm my suspicion... and it appears to be valid.

Best wishes for success to all of you. ----Dave

No Dave, your post was well thought out, and makes a good point. Couch just always like to tell us how only a few people, including himself, have creative talent.

The short answer to your point though is that most people are on social media now. Maybe at some point some people get tired of the same handful of people saying "good job" all the time.

I think the site is great and has been great, but you can't compete with the numbers on Facebook. And as Floyd said, people say here, listen to my song, as opposed to, here, is my song as good as it can be?

Only a few people have creative talent and nothing you said contradicts that. Keith Moon was a very, very talented drummer. George Martin, highly talented. Few people could match their accomplishments. And the person who collaborates with me on a song that turns out well is talented. And I'd want to work with them again. Why? Because talent is rare.

No need to reach for your emotional support ferret. I just expressed an opinion. Songwriting sites are becoming extinct. Much of the reason lies in stagnation. There's just not much happening. There's not much happening in the larger commercial arena, either.

Hahahahahahahah, yeah it's MY need to reach for emotional ferrets lolll

You are the one who manages to take a question as to why songwriting sites are fading, and turning it into nobody is as good as me, that's why....

It doesn't matter, crap musicians and writers have been around and making money for eons. Nothing new and it started befor the Internet

U won't seem to credit somebody like Keith Moon as being creative, he's just talented, but you...your creative.....

Cluelessgrouch

Well Bleep!
I do think MAB is coming around to my way of thinking. Most songs are average to terrible? Yes! Evidently our local Cable thinks so too. They took Great American Country off the cable. Most offerings were bad to bland. Yes it takes some real talent to write a good song. My former publisher used to tell me of how bad most of the stuff he was getting was. We used to ask each other what song was the Song of the year. Nothing came up. For a great song from Yesteryear Goggle THE BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE by Carl Smith. Geronimo!

yeah Ray, your publisher could tell u how bad everything he was getting was, but if he thought for a minute, hey what I think does not matter one bit, he might sign a "bad" song and it could be a huge hit. Then he'd be talking about the time he discovered so and so

Wild Thing is about as bad as it gets, and it's one of the most enduring rock songs of all time. Maybe it's not so bad after all? Maybe it has something, somethjng undefinable, something that can't be calculated, something unique, it just has something. A vibe, so good that Jimi Hendrix decided to cover it

Think of some of the great songs of all time, and this one stands In there. It must have something....

Btw, creative talent is not rare at all. I can name 10 people on this site alone who have creative talent.

Go on Spotify for thousands more. Of all the people who entered this sites contest, I'm sure 25 or so are very creative.

What's rare is extraordinary talent. Not many Bob Dylan's, or for instruments, not many Jimmy Pages or John Entwistles creating masterpieces with their instruments, not many Princes running around.

But mediocre creative talent which is the other 90%, is exceedingly COMMON, and even some of the biggest successes in music fall in that range

Whats happening

The lyric forum used to be bustling with new postings on a daily basis now many of our regular members have dropped off or in the case of Jim being excluded!
I could count on 20 to 30 feedbacks per lyric, lyrics dropped off the page within days such was the activity .Sadly they hang around for weeks unnoticed.
Even the Mp3 forum is apathetic. So sad to see such a once great and friendly site so quiet.
This is of course no disrespect to Brian and all who give their services free for the benefit of it's members and casual visiters

[quote=Travis david]Whats happening

The lyric forum used to be bustling with new postings on a daily basis now many of our regular members have dropped off or in the case of Jim being excluded!
I could count on 20 to 30 feedbacks per lyric, lyrics dropped off the page within days such was the activity .Sadly they hang around for weeks unnoticed.
Even the Mp3 forum is apathetic. So sad to see such a once great and friendly site so quiet.
This is of course no disrespect to Brian and all who give their services free for the benefit of it's members and casual visiters.
But the question remains, WHATS HAPPENING

When anything becomes popular you then get cheap imitations to fill the gaps in the market.

Most people like chocolate and sometimes they buy cheap chocolate because it's easier.
Eventually they get used to cheap chocolate and so the good chocolate makers start making their own cheap chocolate because business is business.
Next thing you know, there's no good chocolate around to buy.

Just the opinion of a good chocolate lover.

Besides the platform changing to social media, the regs here have heard just about all they are going to hear,.

It's incredible that as i write 85% of the members and anons are viewing this thread.
What a pity 50% can't comment on the various forums or leave their contribution!

Some people just like to see what's going on.

i had ten times more people clicking my soundclick page, than actually listening to anything on my soundclick page.

Drat!

Now everyone's discovered... I'm only a cheap imitation of a song-writer! LOL! Oh well, Ignorant Bliss comes in many forms... and I'm resigned to do the best with what I have to "work with"... and I think I've done another "run-on" sentence. My English Teacher, now gone, rest her soul, would have me standing in the corner for the remainder of the class period. (Mrs. Lillian Bjork was special.)

Thanks, everyone... for your comments, concerns and sense of humor... 'cause without it... where would we be? During the course of this morning, I've been working on a song, got it wrapped up, lyric stashed away in my non-net computer... and then recorded the first cut. (Not ready for prime time... but I've accomplished the first part of my process.) Song number 1002... Ya' hafta' "Strike While the Iron is Hot" 'cause the Muse seems to be spending all her time with Marc, Ray and Vic lately! LOL!

Send money when you can... I need a hamburger.

Later,

----Dave (the oblivious)

No, it's just you Dave. We don't like you.

Seriously though ? I think there's a lot of folks who say "listen to my music" rather than listening and commenting on other's works and starting a conversation.

God gave us 2 ears but only 1 mouth, for a reason.

cheers, niteshift

I mostly post my songs for people to enjoy them. I comment but not as much as should.
BUT I love this site and am here all the time.

That comment is a keeper, Geoff. Always good to hear from you.

Barry, we are all addicts to music or the making thereof... LOL!

Back to my TV War Story.

Later, ----Dave

No ya haven't. ;-)

I meant in a broad sense Ronnie. People here have probably heard hundreds if not thousands of songs. How many comments can you write?

Just noticed this thread. Was gonna add my two cents. (not actually worth that much)
But it's all been covered. Particularly enjoyed reading MAB's, Floyd's, and Couch's takes.

For all the valid reasons sited, I think that 85% of it is the faded illusion that these sites were a gateway.
And paraphrasing MAB, sort of, ...hopes, wants and dreams can be the same size in people who have very different levels of aptitude.

Martin

Morning, Martin:

Your observations are always "gems" to me. "Faded Illusion" pretty well sums up the "music career" I tried to churn up after retiring from a better paying occupation... LOL!

The only possible redemption factor is all about luck and hope! Surely there is another rich philanthropist out there waiting to discover my catalogue and bring in a "Stable of Stars" to perform them. I can't afford to pay Zaneski to do all my stuff... but I sure like what he has done for me so far.

Hope the Book is progressing for you. All is well up here in "West Mayberry."

----Dave

Well, occasionally you will see somebody new sign up, and ask, where can I sell my music? Actually thinking somembody is going to buy it. I remember being 16 and doing math formulas....".lets see if i spend a thousand on a recording and print 500 copies of it on vinyl. Then all I need to do is sell such and such amount, and I'll make money" ..especially before distribution sites, do u know how hard it is to sell 500 copies? People will not be lining up in the school gym to buy it.

But don't bash delusion. Anybody successful in the music business had to be a bit delusional. And what's being missed here is it's not delusional because you don't have enough talent...there are way more talented people busking on street corners than there are artists who sell millions of records.

Let's take punk rock, this is a music that by design, is not being about good.

Imagine some kid saying "Dad, I'm gonna drop out of school, I wanna be a punk rock musician" Dad can't possibly say..."you can't do that son, your not good enough", of course he's good enough, but that's not the reason he won't make it

I think Nashville songwriters saw more value to forums back when songwriters got cuts, albeit it was still extremely rare to get a cut. Now you have a better chance of winning the lottery than u do getting a major cut.....which may or may not have anything to do with how good you are.

if you are in the right spot at the right time, before the Internet or after, you could have a career as a songwriter, but it doesn't mean you are better than a lot of other people.

This site just represents the people who weren't in the right spot. There's talented people here. And with a reason to develope your talent, and taking it very seriously, with a career within grasp, some of us could become viable artists too.

I never assumed for one minute that songwriting sites were a gateway or entryway to the music business. If anything it was a reminder of how many people are vying for the the same meat on a bone.

You need to be really good, you don't need to be Jimi Hendrix good, or Prince good. Popular music has told us time and time again, it's about having a dollar and a dream.

Apparently, there's a few people left here as this post suggests. We still get about 20-30K unique visitors per day at a minimum sometimes 50+. But they come in from google search etc. and people can't be bothered to register and post. They want a specific answer and they move on. So appreciate the people who ARE here and if we pick up a handful each month we'll be fine. We never did this for clicks or traffic or money, we just need to encourage those that stop in and DO register, to stick around and join us.

Brian

Great points, Fdmemetrio:

Marc has always cautioned us to do our best to not get our hopes built up much in today's market. If I had it to do over again, I would pursue art (as in water colors, pen and ink, etc.) and let the chips fall where they choose to land. I'm Too far invested at this point but I realize it has probably all been an exercise in futility. Hope spring eternal, though.

You are right about the many talented people here. Many are great lyric writers, others have vocal capabilities to "die for" and a few possess the whole nine yards. Unfortunately, I doubt if any of us possess the connections capable of propelling our objectives into the "center ring." (That place where the real money lies... LOL!)

Have a great weekend. I'm going to be visiting the Song Ramp a bit more often while Eddie Minyard attempts to keep the doors open past September. At one time, it was a song-writer's haven. They had their annual "Bash" in Nashville last week and I'm looking forward to hearing who attended and if any songs really stood out during the many individual performances.

Don't let my appreciation for the Ramp diminish my mutual affection for JPF. Brian has worked so hard though sponsors leaving, health issues and all the expenses involved in keeping the doors open.

Later, ----Dave

Hi Dave.

Gosh, is SongRamp still struggling along? I thought it had closed its doors several months ago (though a quick look just now shows otherwise).

It was indeed a good site. I might be wrong, but seems to me things began going downhill after Eddie made some huge changes to the site's format a few years ago. A lot of folks (including myself) found it very difficult to navigate the new layout. It made me sad to see the activity wind down, knowing how much time and energy Eddie had invested in the site. Maybe a good example of 'if a thing ain't broke, don't fix it'.

Along with the Muse (which is now Muse Songwriters, and was taken over from Jodie by one of the longstanding members) and SongStuff, JPF is one of the few big and old sites still standing and relatively active.

(And I found all of the opinions mentioned above very interesting.)

Hi Donna:

Eddie was forced to change the format because of some technical problem with the original programming format, I'm told. You are 100% correct... it all began to slide downhill from that point.

You are most observant, our faraway friend... the comments have been outstanding and thoughtful. Always good to hear from you. ----Dave

B-T-W... Thanks for disciplining that "errant" composer friend of ours, John "Rachmaninoff" Schick!

Ah, I hadn't realised there'd been problems with the original format. Such a pity. Unfortunately, there were also a few glitches while the new format settled in. I'm sure that's normal, but it might have played a role as well, especially when members were already having trouble with the format.

A site's layout needs to be simple (and uncluttered by graphics). 'JPF' and 'Muse Songwriters' are both good examples. They have plenty of forums and huge amounts of information on them, but everything is accessible by way of just one click. When you open the page, what you see is what you get.

Sites where you need to go searching for what you're after - and then have to click a few times in order to drill down to get there - are self-defeating.

(Oh yeah, our John needs a good crack of the whip now and then. To give Sandra a hand occasionally, I'm usually somewhere in the vicinity.

But getting back to your original question: I think a lot of people simply wander off in other directions. For instance, though I still do a lot of writing, I've been busy as well with another old hobby of mine - art - over the past couple of years. I'd felt the need to move away from words and spend more time with colour and form. A natural process, I think. I also had a couple of periods where I just got burned out with writing (plus the pressure of too much editing work), so I took a few months off from lyrics.

Each time, I was sure I'd never write another lyric, but lo and behold, one day I just woke up, and the first lines in months appeared in my mind. So what else could I do?

Hi again, Donna:

The Song Ramp is limping along with Eddie and Mikey doing all the monitoring to keep things afloat. September is the day they will pull the plug unless other arrangements can be made. I sure did not care for the Facebook aspect, after trying it as part of the group... then got off due to entirely too much non-essential communications, messages and invitations from strangers.

I'm going to hang with them until I see what eventually happens and have started posting songs with them again. They require the lyrics as well as the digital music file and it does take more time and effort but I would like to see them survive.

On a different slant, my page at ShowCaseYourMusic is not working properly and has been that way now for about two weeks. No new song or photo uploads will work. I had been "rolling over" my list of about four or five songs every week or two in order to keep listeners interested. Now, I'm stuck in "limbo." Oh well, what else is new. At least it was free.

Music sites for song-writers appear to be in jeopardy these days.

Anyone here using BandCamp?

----Dave

Full disclosure...I am, in fact, Meghan Markle's dad...

Well,
Full disclosure #2. I was informed some time ago by a member of the family, on my mothers side, by way of my brother that visited the family member that we were related to the Spenser's when doing genelogy research. Hell if I know if it's true but welcome to the family couchgrouch!

I was just thinking the same thing the other day and was even contemplating creating a thread myself if one had not already existed. Of course, this forum did have the passing of perhaps the most frequent poster here, Tampa Stan Good. Other prolific posters here such as Janice Hopkins and Jim Colyer also have disappeared. But the same thing is happen on other unrelated forums such as Alternet and Generational Theory, which was borne out of the previous Fourth Turning website. Could blogging be sort of a now passing fad in the same way that disco was?

This post though can't help me think of perhaps the biggest fiasco in music history when, in 1962, Decca records took a pass on signing a not well known yet band due to an assumption that guitar-based music was on its way out. It was a time when forms such as the Motown sound were making pop history following the heyday of Elvis Presley and others. The name of the band: The Beatles.

The whole "I don't have time" syndrome, though, began with the ascent of the Yuppies during the mid-1980. One of the side notes of that syndrome was that dating services, once considered the last resort for losers, gained respectability when busy professionals decided that they no longer had the time to go looking for dates in bars, at dances, etc. And most also became ridiculously expensive. I wish that US society would slow down again, but would be very surprised to see that in my lifetime. 50 years or so ago it was widely assumed that the technology most of us today worship at the feet of would reduce working hours and create more leisure. Still waiting.

Regarding the last paragraph, there were a whole of lot of acts when rock 'n roll was in its infancy who turned out to be one-hit wonders so that is really nothing new. Two of many I shall give you right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysKhbaLyIFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT4LJxBBaF0

You mentioned Dylan in your post. He was the one above all others who proved that it doesn't take either a pretty face or a great voice to become a legend. Many folks felt that Kristofferson didn't have a great voice either but he pretty much became a legend as well.

You think there are some professionals who are still waiting for the next Sinatra, Presley or the Beatles?

You mean there may not be future legendary collaborators such as Rodgers and Hammerstein or Lennon and McCartney? I have seen some credits where up to four writers are listed. There are still many successful songwriters who never did record. At first I was going to mention Irving Berlin but he DID do some recording although quite seldom. Now retired, Bob McDill penned many great hits for country and some pop artists but to my knowledge never recorded himself. John D. Loudermilk also was known for hits covered by various artists even though he did do some recording. My favorite of all his songs "It's My Time" is one he had a minor hit with as a performer. Dylan, Kristofferson, John Denver and Gretchen Peters all made their name with other artists performing their songs prior to branching out to performing themselves.

Ten years after Dylan along came John Prine, who many at the time thought would be a natural successor, perhaps because he had the same shrill voice as the former. Prine made a name for himself but his success was much more moderate. Prine, by the way, was discovered by none other than Kris Kristofferson.