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Nothing
by Gary E. Andrews. 02/28/21 08:04 AM
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Don't Go
by Gary E. Andrews. 02/28/21 08:00 AM
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#1140783 - 05/15/18 11:10 PM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,335
Marc Barnette
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Posts: 5,335
Nashville, Tn.
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Floyd has it exactly right, but it is a WHOLE lot deeper and covers MUCH more than just shrinking web site attendance.
The Internet put everyone IN TO THE GAME. And took ALL the money OUT of the game. There are 30-60 million writers and artists out there, about a BILLION songs uploaded a month. Everyone is just totally consumed with THROWING things OUT THERE, without giving any thought to SHOULD IT BE OUT THERE?
The result is a huge drop off in talent, and abilities. It is like a bunch of 8th graders, just copied the latest thing they hear on the radio and do that. The songs are average to terrible, the performers are worse, if anyone can keep anyone's attention for more than 30 seconds they are doing great.
The public has all but tuned it out. They get endless music for free or almost nothing. Venues don't have to pay for anything because there are always endless people who will play for free or pay to play, because they have to.
Music is relative and what is good or bad is inconsequential. It's no longer in the forefront, it's in the background which is why no one is getting paid.
They come here to Nashville in enormous droves, about 500 a week. They get hit with reality in that there are hundreds of thousands just like them. They find out quickly that they are not as good as they think they are and the leave.
The latest thing in Nashville and coming to a town near you is venues charging people to perform. Just like social media, if you want a platform, you are going to pay for it. Places that are famous, like the Bluebird, have people lined up at 12:00 every day waiting to get in. Every show for the week sells out within 5 minutes on Monday morning. Some people wait online for months trying to get tickets to the shows, much less performing on them. They plan their vacations around going to a show. We no longer ask "Is there anyone from out of town" when we play. WE ask "Is there anyone FROM IN TOWN?"
It's created ripples throughout this town and all over. Thirty years ago, LA started charging people to play. Forty years ago New York did it. Now it is here.
We are in the AMATUERIZATION of all entertainment. No one is studying the craft or networking, of course until it is too late, when they have already shot themselves in the foot by putting really crap up on the Internet. They have lost all people skills. Which is the most interesting thing because this business is ALL people skills.
So are the web site interest waning? You bet . And everything else is waning too. We are in an eight second attention span and it is the world of NICHEING. You find your own niche and always keep and expand that. Forget trying to be a "big star." You better ignite the world around you first.
Unfortunately, most will never realize that until it's too late and their careers are over before they start.
MAB
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#1140784 - 05/16/18 12:06 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,959
couchgrouch
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I've noticed it, too. I came on the internet in Feb. '99. I'd been writing for nearly 20 years by then as well as voraciously collecting records. I'd say it took me 12 years to write a single, decent piece that was cohesive and had meaning. In the interim, I was bad and I knew it. I had no commercial aspirations, i just wanted to be good. So I worked at it.
About a year after I came on the net I started getting contacted by composers, some from Europe. They all said that songwriting sites were a wasteland. There's very little sense of getting better. There used to be people who would post stuff daily, none of it had any chance of ever becoming a song at all, let alone one an artist would sing.
I say this only because the availability and convenience of making something public does NOT increase the talent of those who want it public. A very, very small percentage of people have creative talent. Those people are split up anong architects, dancers, painters, poets, composers etc. The internet has not created more creativity, it just exposed mediocrity.
It's really easy to write a terrible lyric. (Ask any rapper). It takes talent plus years of devotion to write a good one, let alone a great one. Without that, these sites will be dinosaurs in a short time.
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#1140785 - 05/16/18 01:26 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
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It has nothing to do with who is talented and who isn't. The question was asking why these sites are fading. Floyd had some good insights.
and Couch, it's not just about lyrics, lyrics are not songs. And your way off saying only a small percentage of people have creative talent.
You're not understanding what creative talent is. A guitar player who doesn't write songs at all, can have immense creative talent, so can a drummer, so can a jazz musician who plays standards. So can a recording engineer and producers.
You seem to be limiting creative talent to lyrics...
Let's put things in perspective first of all. Success in the music business has never been completely about musical talent. Remember talent comes in many forms, if singing talent was the only factor, Dylan would be garbage, and all the American idols would be legends. That's just an example.
I may agree that the Internet and tech, probably did inspire more and more people to give it a shot, and I definitly think these forums made more would be lyricists come out of the woodwork to try their hand at it.
But you have to consider that really good songwriters and artists, don't seek out forums that concentrate on making songs better, they think their stuff is what it is, and don't know this kind of thing exists.
I can mention 25 guys I know personally who have never been on a forum like this, or even been in soundclick or soundcloud for that matter.
Most of them go on Facebook to announce their next show, or perform on YouTube, not using the tech to make them stars, but using the tech to communicate with people.
Youtube doesn't make you creative, it basically asks the question.... Does anybody out there like my music?
Not sure who is thinking any different.
I don't think I'm better than even 1% of the people out there. if I were more delusional I'd make the number 10%.
All I can do is make the best music I can and hope something happens
Even some of the best artists out there needed a massive dose of luck and help, and even the worst artists needed the same thing.
The bottom line is there is not enough opportunities for even the best of the best.
So it's not about who's great or not, The Sex Pistols made a massive mark on music, and they "sucked"
Sometimes, it's just about being there and having something people want.
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 05/16/18 01:32 AM.
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#1140786 - 05/16/18 07:55 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
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Um, yes, I think I got a blurb much about the same thing from my former publisher when he called a while back. He has moved back to New York. Sometimes people contact him but want everything handed to them on a Silver Platter. It appears nobody is looking for material. One publisher I contacted in Nashville was accepting songs but wanted them E-Mailed to him. I think things are slow and will be that way for a while.
However rejoice my friends! Not all in lost. I can tell you things are really heating up on the Big Island out in Hawaii!
Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 05/16/18 08:00 AM.
Ray E. Strode
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#1140791 - 05/16/18 09:35 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Wrong, and wrong again. how bout a demo maker who takes your lyric and not only adds music to it, but records and produces it, he has no creative talent? Isnt it his idea how he wants to attack the arrangement? Isn't it his idea what chord structure he used, what voicing, what melody he will sing, what melody he will use as a counter. It's all creativity deciding what environment will work best for each song. Yiu simply don't understand creativity if u think he's some kind of robot who takes your song and makes you look good.
Again, u don't understand what creative talent is.
Is it Don Henleys creativity that created those classic guitar solos at the end of hotel California? Do you think they are just jamming nonsensically?
Is it Pete Townshends creativty that made Keith Moon such an extraordinary drummer? Most rock drummers consider him one of the most creative rock drummers of all time, he didn't write songs....
George Martins creativty made alot of the Beatles stuff what they were. What do U think the guy gets hired as a producer and he suddenly has ideas? He didn't the day before he worked with the Beatles?
Bob Dylan is a prime example of the actual music not being everything. Dylan can carry a tune, why u say he is a great singer is beyond me. He has no range, a terrible tone, but he's able to effectively sing his own songs.
I wouldn't call Mariah Carey a terrible singer. I dont like her music, but if u can't hear how talented she is, then take up something else. Does vocal control, vocal runs, emotional resonance mean nothing? She could sing a Bob Dylan song, he couldn't sing one of hers.
Now does Bob have better writing chops and artistic fervor absolutely, but u have to be able to recognize talent. U don't seem to be able to.
Anybody who contributes to a great song, had creativity being used, not just the guy who wrote the damn lyrics.
Demonstrate it...ha. Not fair u write words on a paper
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 05/16/18 09:41 AM.
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#1140793 - 05/16/18 09:50 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
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No Dave, your post was well thought out, and makes a good point. Couch just always like to tell us how only a few people, including himself, have creative talent.
The short answer to your point though is that most people are on social media now. Maybe at some point some people get tired of the same handful of people saying "good job" all the time.
I think the site is great and has been great, but you can't compete with the numbers on Facebook. And as Floyd said, people say here, listen to my song, as opposed to, here, is my song as good as it can be?
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 05/16/18 09:53 AM.
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#1140798 - 05/16/18 10:46 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
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Well Bleep! I do think MAB is coming around to my way of thinking. Most songs are average to terrible? Yes! Evidently our local Cable thinks so too. They took Great American Country off the cable. Most offerings were bad to bland. Yes it takes some real talent to write a good song. My former publisher used to tell me of how bad most of the stuff he was getting was. We used to ask each other what song was the Song of the year. Nothing came up. For a great song from Yesteryear Goggle THE BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE by Carl Smith. Geronimo!
Ray E. Strode
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#1140799 - 05/16/18 10:54 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
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yeah Ray, your publisher could tell u how bad everything he was getting was, but if he thought for a minute, hey what I think does not matter one bit, he might sign a "bad" song and it could be a huge hit. Then he'd be talking about the time he discovered so and so
Wild Thing is about as bad as it gets, and it's one of the most enduring rock songs of all time. Maybe it's not so bad after all? Maybe it has something, somethjng undefinable, something that can't be calculated, something unique, it just has something. A vibe, so good that Jimi Hendrix decided to cover it
Think of some of the great songs of all time, and this one stands In there. It must have something....
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#1140800 - 05/16/18 11:16 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
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Btw, creative talent is not rare at all. I can name 10 people on this site alone who have creative talent.
Go on Spotify for thousands more. Of all the people who entered this sites contest, I'm sure 25 or so are very creative.
What's rare is extraordinary talent. Not many Bob Dylan's, or for instruments, not many Jimmy Pages or John Entwistles creating masterpieces with their instruments, not many Princes running around.
But mediocre creative talent which is the other 90%, is exceedingly COMMON, and even some of the biggest successes in music fall in that range
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 05/16/18 11:18 AM.
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#1140805 - 05/16/18 12:57 PM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
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Besides the platform changing to social media, the regs here have heard just about all they are going to hear,.
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 05/16/18 04:15 PM.
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#1140807 - 05/16/18 01:16 PM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Some people just like to see what's going on.
i had ten times more people clicking my soundclick page, than actually listening to anything on my soundclick page.
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 05/17/18 01:47 AM.
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#1140809 - 05/16/18 01:25 PM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Dave Rice (D)
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Texas
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Drat!
Now everyone's discovered... I'm only a cheap imitation of a song-writer! LOL! Oh well, Ignorant Bliss comes in many forms... and I'm resigned to do the best with what I have to "work with"... and I think I've done another "run-on" sentence. My English Teacher, now gone, rest her soul, would have me standing in the corner for the remainder of the class period. (Mrs. Lillian Bjork was special.)
Thanks, everyone... for your comments, concerns and sense of humor... 'cause without it... where would we be? During the course of this morning, I've been working on a song, got it wrapped up, lyric stashed away in my non-net computer... and then recorded the first cut. (Not ready for prime time... but I've accomplished the first part of my process.) Song number 1002... Ya' hafta' "Strike While the Iron is Hot" 'cause the Muse seems to be spending all her time with Marc, Ray and Vic lately! LOL!
Send money when you can... I need a hamburger.
Later,
----Dave (the oblivious)
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#1140816 - 05/16/18 07:27 PM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,763
niteshift
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,763
Fiji
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No, it's just you Dave. We don't like you.  Seriously though ? I think there's a lot of folks who say "listen to my music" rather than listening and commenting on other's works and starting a conversation. God gave us 2 ears but only 1 mouth, for a reason.  cheers, niteshift
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#1140840 - 05/17/18 11:03 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
Fdemetrio
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,227
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Well, occasionally you will see somebody new sign up, and ask, where can I sell my music? Actually thinking somembody is going to buy it. I remember being 16 and doing math formulas....".lets see if i spend a thousand on a recording and print 500 copies of it on vinyl. Then all I need to do is sell such and such amount, and I'll make money" ..especially before distribution sites, do u know how hard it is to sell 500 copies? People will not be lining up in the school gym to buy it.
But don't bash delusion. Anybody successful in the music business had to be a bit delusional. And what's being missed here is it's not delusional because you don't have enough talent...there are way more talented people busking on street corners than there are artists who sell millions of records.
Let's take punk rock, this is a music that by design, is not being about good.
Imagine some kid saying "Dad, I'm gonna drop out of school, I wanna be a punk rock musician" Dad can't possibly say..."you can't do that son, your not good enough", of course he's good enough, but that's not the reason he won't make it
I think Nashville songwriters saw more value to forums back when songwriters got cuts, albeit it was still extremely rare to get a cut. Now you have a better chance of winning the lottery than u do getting a major cut.....which may or may not have anything to do with how good you are.
if you are in the right spot at the right time, before the Internet or after, you could have a career as a songwriter, but it doesn't mean you are better than a lot of other people.
This site just represents the people who weren't in the right spot. There's talented people here. And with a reason to develope your talent, and taking it very seriously, with a career within grasp, some of us could become viable artists too.
I never assumed for one minute that songwriting sites were a gateway or entryway to the music business. If anything it was a reminder of how many people are vying for the the same meat on a bone.
You need to be really good, you don't need to be Jimi Hendrix good, or Prince good. Popular music has told us time and time again, it's about having a dollar and a dream.
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 05/17/18 11:11 AM.
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#1140846 - 05/17/18 06:49 PM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,321
Brian Austin Whitney
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,321
Indianapolis, IN USA
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Apparently, there's a few people left here as this post suggests. We still get about 20-30K unique visitors per day at a minimum sometimes 50+. But they come in from google search etc. and people can't be bothered to register and post. They want a specific answer and they move on. So appreciate the people who ARE here and if we pick up a handful each month we'll be fine. We never did this for clicks or traffic or money, we just need to encourage those that stop in and DO register, to stick around and join us.
Brian
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@gmail.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."
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#1140847 - 05/17/18 07:02 PM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Dave Rice (D)
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Texas
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Great points, Fdmemetrio:
Marc has always cautioned us to do our best to not get our hopes built up much in today's market. If I had it to do over again, I would pursue art (as in water colors, pen and ink, etc.) and let the chips fall where they choose to land. I'm Too far invested at this point but I realize it has probably all been an exercise in futility. Hope spring eternal, though.
You are right about the many talented people here. Many are great lyric writers, others have vocal capabilities to "die for" and a few possess the whole nine yards. Unfortunately, I doubt if any of us possess the connections capable of propelling our objectives into the "center ring." (That place where the real money lies... LOL!)
Have a great weekend. I'm going to be visiting the Song Ramp a bit more often while Eddie Minyard attempts to keep the doors open past September. At one time, it was a song-writer's haven. They had their annual "Bash" in Nashville last week and I'm looking forward to hearing who attended and if any songs really stood out during the many individual performances.
Don't let my appreciation for the Ramp diminish my mutual affection for JPF. Brian has worked so hard though sponsors leaving, health issues and all the expenses involved in keeping the doors open.
Later, ----Dave
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#1140855 - 05/18/18 07:01 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,666
DonnaMarilyn
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,666
Netherlands
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Hi Dave.  Gosh, is SongRamp still struggling along? I thought it had closed its doors several months ago (though a quick look just now shows otherwise). It was indeed a good site. I might be wrong, but seems to me things began going downhill after Eddie made some huge changes to the site's format a few years ago. A lot of folks (including myself) found it very difficult to navigate the new layout. It made me sad to see the activity wind down, knowing how much time and energy Eddie had invested in the site. Maybe a good example of 'if a thing ain't broke, don't fix it'. Along with the Muse (which is now Muse Songwriters, and was taken over from Jodie by one of the longstanding members) and SongStuff, JPF is one of the few big and old sites still standing and relatively active. (And I found all of the opinions mentioned above very interesting.)
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#1140863 - 05/18/18 10:16 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,666
DonnaMarilyn
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,666
Netherlands
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Ah, I hadn't realised there'd been problems with the original format. Such a pity. Unfortunately, there were also a few glitches while the new format settled in. I'm sure that's normal, but it might have played a role as well, especially when members were already having trouble with the format. A site's layout needs to be simple (and uncluttered by graphics). 'JPF' and 'Muse Songwriters' are both good examples. They have plenty of forums and huge amounts of information on them, but everything is accessible by way of just one click. When you open the page, what you see is what you get. Sites where you need to go searching for what you're after - and then have to click a few times in order to drill down to get there - are self-defeating. (Oh yeah, our John needs a good crack of the whip now and then.  To give Sandra a hand occasionally, I'm usually somewhere in the vicinity. But getting back to your original question: I think a lot of people simply wander off in other directions. For instance, though I still do a lot of writing, I've been busy as well with another old hobby of mine - art - over the past couple of years. I'd felt the need to move away from words and spend more time with colour and form. A natural process, I think.  I also had a couple of periods where I just got burned out with writing (plus the pressure of too much editing work), so I took a few months off from lyrics. Each time, I was sure I'd never write another lyric, but lo and behold, one day I just woke up, and the first lines in months appeared in my mind. So what else could I do? 
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#1140891 - 05/19/18 08:23 AM
Re: Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
[Re: Dave Rice (D)]
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
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Well, Full disclosure #2. I was informed some time ago by a member of the family, on my mothers side, by way of my brother that visited the family member that we were related to the Spenser's when doing genelogy research. Hell if I know if it's true but welcome to the family couchgrouch!
Ray E. Strode
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"Whether your next song is #1 on Billboard, or a critical failure by all measurable standards, go look in the mirror. You are the exact same person you were the day before your received the news. Never forget that." -Brian Austin Whitney
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