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#1135764 - 01/29/18 01:01 AM Sheena of the Jungle - Full Production  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,193
Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
***I am Facebook pals with some of you guys and know that some of you have heard this, but I'm just sharing for today in case anyone else wanted to hear Mike's great work on this. I gave him some basic direction re: jug band, scratchy record sound, ukulele Ike, etc. He took it and made it sound really cool. *****


I must be honest. I'm totally unsure about this. It might be a novelty song, or some kind of half-baked social commentary, or just the portrait of a wild-ass..

I tried to create a juxtaposition or intersection between tin-pan alley and something modern/playful.

I play in a small, acoustic band in Atlanta. Lately, we've been doing some cover shows and have incorporated kazoos into the show. Playing kazoo with thirty strangers can make you over-confident. Hopefully, it won't break your spirit.

Thoughts on production are okay, though I'm not a "production gal" and they may be futile. But I try to learn, so don't hold back.

Thoughts on whether this idea passes muster are welcome and encouraged. Tips re: kazoo humming would also be wunderbar. smile

https://soundcloud.com/mamby-p/sheena-3

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13685074

Sheena of the Jungle

Sheena drives an Olds 88
She's got Pikachu on her license plate
She's got bobble heads
All over the dash

She's got an internet boyfriend
Who lives in Jersey
His favorite band is
Sisters of Mercy
Sisters of Mercy..

(Chorus)

Sheena of the Jungle
Sheena of the Jungle
She rents a room
From her disabled, ex-con uncle
Sheena of the Jungle

(break - kazoo)

Her back-side is
covered in tats
Her bra and her panties
Never match
She don't excel at math

What you get
is what you see
Don't try to tame her
She'll always be free
She'll always be free

(Chorus)

Tag w/kazoo

Last edited by Wendy D; 03/02/18 09:45 AM.

http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1135767 - 01/29/18 09:15 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Dave Rice Online content
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Dave Rice  Online Content
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We may have our first "viral" capable creation here at JPF, Wendy:

I've always believed a good song could be performed on a Kazoo... and you just proved it! Loved the lyric and your vocal is exceptional. Technically, the recording was okay but could use a couple of volume edits especially right after the intro... but don't worry about that yet.

This thing is descriptive, somewhat true of today's society, a little sad when viewed from an old man's eyes... and yet it leaves the listener with warmth and hope for "Sheena."

You bet, I'd love to hear this thing with orchestration and Adele singing it for you... as you make your way to the bank on a regular basis! It sure worked for me... can ya tell? ----Dave

#1135777 - 01/29/18 10:19 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Apr 2002
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Calvin Offline
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Hello Wendy,


What's not to like.
Great job, I was totally entertained.


Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart

#1135791 - 01/29/18 11:51 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,914
Vicarn Online content
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Vicarn  Online Content
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UK
It's cute.
I imagine a jazz band behind it.

Vocal could come up a tiny tad.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1135792 - 01/29/18 12:06 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Jun 2011
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Travis david Online content
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Kendal, Cumbria .UK
Really enjoyed the listen Wendy. Everything to like about it
Travis


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde
#1135801 - 01/29/18 02:09 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,700
Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
(double post)

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/29/18 02:31 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1135802 - 01/29/18 02:11 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Jul 2006
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Wendy,

This is really an affectionate portrait. It's details like who she rents her room from and (the singer) choosing to talk about her tats and undergarments that makes this funny and yet still warm. You never give a feeling of poking fun. Sheena feels like a real live Tank Girl.

I think it's brilliant, and not a novelty song at all, except for the kazoo maybe, but the kazoo works with these lyrics and chord progression, kinda gives it an old-timey Bonzo Dog Doo-dah Band feel.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/29/18 02:13 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1135813 - 01/29/18 03:53 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Oct 2017
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Maroon_Corey Offline
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Maroon_Corey  Offline
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Richmond, VA
Wendy,

Very perky and quirky tune! I can almost see Sheena strumming this on her uke in the urban wild.

The lyrics paint a picture with personality galore and will inspire rallying cries for Sheena from many listeners. Starting off with mentioning a defunct car maker sets the vintage-loving vibe and will resonate with the hipster crowd for sure.

I could hear the song at a bit faster tempo, maybe around 134 beats per minute. This would make it easier for your audience to clap on the offbeats, too. I have a feeling they’ll want to!

In your verses, I would suggest experimenting with adding a C minor chord at the last bar of each phrase like at the words “license plate”. It could add a touch more drama or motion to the song. Note that you would have to slightly alter the melody notes on the first “Sisters of Mercy” and on “never match” to fit with the chord.

I love the melodic contrast on the chorus. Paired with the E minor to A major chord, it reminds me of something from the Beatles white album. When you sing “She rents a room…”, you go back to the G chord and B chord that started the song. This made me think that we were starting a new verse.

Instead, you might want to try using these chords at that spot, changing every 4 beats: E minor (or G), D, C, C minor. That puts the C minor chord on “uncle” which could be a cool effect, especially if you use the C minor in the verse, tying it together a bit. In fact, the Beatles ended the verse of “Bungalow Bill” on the white album with this same type of “four minor” chord, as did Weezer in “Buddy Holly”. You wouldn’t need to change any of your sung melody notes with these new chords.

A kazoo solo bridge is cool and fun, fitting with the spirit of the song. I could definitely hear an enthusiastic audience playing along - cool idea! You may want to limit it to 16 bars to make it memorable/ hummable. I would say to give it a whole new melody. I can hear one in my head now!

I suggest limiting the melody pitches of the kazoo solo to roughly between a D (a few notes above where your melody starts) and the D an octave above. This is the basic singing range of non-musicians who might not be able to match pitch on your lowest and highest notes. Losing the lowest notes will probably make it ring out better on a kazoo, too. I also remember from playing around with kazoos with the kids that the wax paper or whatever would wear out after a while, so maybe a replacement would make it sound a little better?

I’m sure this will be a hit with your fans in Hotlanta!

Maroon

P.S. As this played in my head at times after I wrote the above, I was hearing "Gina of the Jungle" - could be nice for alliteration?

#1135822 - 01/29/18 06:17 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,227
E Swartz Online content
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E Swartz  Online Content
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Ohio
Hey Wendy,

I like the song a lot. The uke is perfect and really works well with your voice. My sugs for production would be start as you do, and add a layer of instrumentation with vs 2, such as an upright bass sound (keeping more of an unplugged sound). At chorus maybe add some subtle piano chords--could make a nice building addition. The kazoo always gives a humorous old fashioned quality which I think works, but will sound better with say the light piano or other rhythm instrument for a quiet bed effect--maybe even strings. I have an antique washboard I've used for a crude snare sound, which may or may work as another building tool or maybe some real spoons used as a tambourine skiffle effect. Just some ideas, and there are many ways you produce the song, but would keep it simple.

I also like how you do the Jun-u-u-ungle..........this adds a little bit of a cool "current" pop delivery to the line which makes a neat contrast, maybe do that elsewhere if it works timing-wise. Your vocals always have such a wonderful tone--that is your trademark. Fun write!

steady-eddie

#1135825 - 01/29/18 07:10 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Jul 2005
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Scott Campbell Offline
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Lakeland, FL, USA
Love this, Wendy. Kazoo is perfect touch.

Agree with Eddie that some more instruments could be added without ruining the kazoo. I heard them come in at the first chorus.

Mike is right - she lives life on her own terms - so no one would make fun of her for that. smile

Scott

#1135836 - 01/29/18 09:14 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,193
Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
Hey peeps. I just wanted to check-in and thank you guys for listening and the great feedback. I stayed up way too late last night and got up too early today. Work was super busy and now I have zero energy.

I am going to rest-up and get back to you all tomorrow. I appreciate all the input though.

You guys are the bomb.


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1135853 - 01/30/18 05:46 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Irwin Offline
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Irwin  Offline
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Georgetown,Guyana,South Americ...
Hi Wendy, Nice song. (I can picture you singing one of my songs). you have that cool sound going on and I like that.The kazoo it isn't working for me I would have like to hear just the guitar playing because the song it is just beautiful all my it self. Love your voice.

Irwin

#1135873 - 01/30/18 10:39 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,819
Ricki E. Bellos Online content
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Wisconsin
How delightful!

What you get
is what you see

It is funny, not in a laugh at her way but rather a laugh with her kinda thing cause you just know she's on top of things and in control of her own life. It would be a riot hearing it live...a real crowd pleaser. I'm not a kazoo fan but thought it fit here very well, maybe it went on for just a tad too long. smile I always enjoy your songs and your mastery of the language. Thanks for sharing.

Ricki

#1135926 - 01/31/18 12:56 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Deej56 Offline
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Deej56  Offline
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Wendy,

Gotta love a ukulele tune! Cool lyrics and great vocal. I think there could be some better balance on the different elements of the production, as some have mentioned above—though I’m the last to provide advice on that stuff. This would kill live in a close setting. Wouldn’t mind being right there listening.

All the best,

Deej

#1136005 - 01/31/18 05:09 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,570
Nelson Offline
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Nelson  Offline
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Baltimore, MD
The kazoo is funny as hell.
For some reason it made me think of the three's company theme song.

Your vocals are incredible and the portrait was well conceived...
In the vein of Gillian welsh's "Look at Miss Ohio"... which could have used a kazoo. smile

Enjoyed the listen


"Dig my imaginary...... Baaand Maaan"
#1136065 - 02/01/18 03:01 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Nov 2017
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David Snyder Offline
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David Snyder  Offline
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North Carolina

I really like the song and lyrics very much and that is the most important part. Plus you have the perfect voice for this type of song.

This song would be extremely easy to produce as a ukulele tune, and you should produce it, I think. It would not take much. I would kick in some other instruments and a beat at chorus one and build a little---and replace the kazoo with either whistling or a ukulele lead.

As others have mentioned the vocals need to come up more in the mix, but that would be easy if you can get someone to produce it for you and there are people on this forum who could do that in no time flat with both hands tied behind their backs if you gave them a chart I bet.

The reason I am suggesting you explore this is I think this song would be a slam dunk for an indie film posting. They are looking for stuff like this all the time so it would be well worth your time. It has Indie film soundtrack written all over it.

Great work.


David Snyder, Composer, Author
Singer-Songwriter, Producer
Regional Chapter Coordinator, NSAI
www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder
#1136117 - 02/02/18 11:26 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,453
Tom Franz Offline
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Tom Franz  Offline
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Northern California
Disabled ex con uncle
Sheena of the jungle

Only you could write that Wendy.
How you choose to describe this woman is beyond unique. Still it is done with such an economy of words. I feel like I get this woman though. Nice job.
The uke sounds really nice. Your low key (literally) kazoo solo made me laugh. A kazoo solo with a sense of humor.
Your pal,
Tom

#1136302 - 02/05/18 09:09 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,193
Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
Originally Posted by Dave Rice
We may have our first "viral" capable creation here at JPF, Wendy:

I've always believed a good song could be performed on a Kazoo... and you just proved it! Loved the lyric and your vocal is exceptional. Technically, the recording was okay but could use a couple of volume edits especially right after the intro... but don't worry about that yet.

This thing is descriptive, somewhat true of today's society, a little sad when viewed from an old man's eyes... and yet it leaves the listener with warmth and hope for "Sheena."

You bet, I'd love to hear this thing with orchestration and Adele singing it for you... as you make your way to the bank on a regular basis! It sure worked for me... can ya tell? ----Dave


Hey Dave,

Thank you for the kind words re: the tune. I probably will redo the audio. Mostly, I was posting this just to get it out of my head and to see if I am on to something or half-baked in left field. I did once write a Shakespearean sonnet about the Donner Party. Now I trust my ideas a bit less..

Dang, Adele. Wouldn't that be something? I think she mostly does love songs though. She did cover a Steel Driver's tune though.

Again, thanks again for listening.


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1136303 - 02/05/18 09:10 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Calvin]  
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Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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Originally Posted by Calvin
Hello Wendy,


What's not to like.
Great job, I was totally entertained.


Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart



Thank you, sir!


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1136305 - 02/05/18 09:13 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Vicarn]  
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Wendy D  Offline
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Originally Posted by Vicarn
It's cute.
I imagine a jazz band behind it.

Vocal could come up a tiny tad.

Vic


Thank you for listening and weighing in, Sir.

I am going to work on the audio some.

A jazz band playing this would be a dream come true for me!


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1136306 - 02/05/18 09:13 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Travis david]  
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Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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Originally Posted by Travis david
Really enjoyed the listen Wendy. Everything to like about it
Travis


Thank you for listening and commenting!


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1136307 - 02/05/18 09:18 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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floyd jane Offline
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floyd jane  Offline
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Tampa
Wendy,

I always enjoy your songs. They are almost always "perfect" as they are. This is no exception.

You deserve to have a huge audience/following.

floyd

#1136308 - 02/05/18 09:19 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Wendy,

This is really an affectionate portrait. It's details like who she rents her room from and (the singer) choosing to talk about her tats and undergarments that makes this funny and yet still warm. You never give a feeling of poking fun. Sheena feels like a real live Tank Girl.

I think it's brilliant, and not a novelty song at all, except for the kazoo maybe, but the kazoo works with these lyrics and chord progression, kinda gives it an old-timey Bonzo Dog Doo-dah Band feel.

Mike



Howdy Mike,

Thank you for your thoughts and ears. I am considering sending you my tracks to add some fun stuff. Would you be interested? I put the kazoo on same track as vox and was wondering if that is an issue? I can redo the vox as well.

I think Sheena is a much hipper version of the young Wendy. I was a bit of a punk back in the day. Love Tank Girl too. Great soundtrack from that film as I recall.


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1136324 - 02/05/18 11:24 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Hi Wendy,

Love to!

Kazoo on the same track is okey unless they're both playing simultaneously, but even so I could work around that..

We'll need to talk about the possibilities with this so as to narrow them down a little..

Just FB when convenient and let me know. smile

Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1138036 - 03/02/18 09:44 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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I am bumping this in case anyone wants to hear how Mike made it sound so amazing.


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1138046 - 03/02/18 10:50 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Dave Rice Online content
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Dave Rice  Online Content
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Texas
Thanks for letting us know you got Zaneski involved, Wendy:

I just gave it a listen and was so pleased at how you two have turned this into a gem of a song. It was great in your original recording but wow... this is so-o-o good! Yesterday I "evacuated" myself from Facebook... just too distracting for me... so I could not comment there, sorry! Anyway... this thing will be snapped up by a big-time label soon. I can't wait to hear it on the Radio or at some outlandish award ceremony. Then I'll be able to say, "Hey, I know who created that song... and she is a genius!" (...and so is Mike!)

Loved it! (Can ya' tell?) ----Dave

#1138065 - 03/03/18 09:48 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Ricki E. Bellos Online content
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Ricki E. Bellos  Online Content
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He has succeeded, Wendy but then he had some mighty fine material to work with. Well done.

Ricki

#1138120 - 03/05/18 10:10 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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Thank you Dave and Ricki,

I love this version! The break with kazoo and saw is my favorite part. I don't think it will ever "go anywhere" but I did not write this for that reason. I have been trying to make peace with the mental struggle of why I keep writing songs, fretting over them, hating them, loving them and have decided it is what is in me.

I don't think there has ever been a time since I can remember where I was not doing this in some fashion. I could not stop if I tried at this point.

Believe me. I have tried.

It's in me and has to come out.

Thank you again for listening.


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1138151 - 03/06/18 06:06 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Stratford, Australia
Brilliant!

#1138521 - 03/12/18 10:29 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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TamsNumber4 Offline
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TamsNumber4  Offline
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New Hampshire
This is so rich in descriptors and it is so original, love the sounds, it makes me smile! I think the production is great and love the scratchy record, just amazing and so well done!!

Tammy


http://tammyjann.com/
https://soundcloud.com/tamsnumber4
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1038504

Words are, in my not-so-humble opinion, our most inexhaustible source of magic. Capable of both inflicting injury, and remedying it...
Professor Albus Dumbledore




#1138560 - 03/13/18 05:44 PM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Janice_and_Bud Offline
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No nits and no attempts to parse it out.

It's simply a terrific write, vocal and arrangement.

Completely engaging from first through the last note.

Many kudos!

J&B


Check out our album Janice Merritt "All Over The Map"
on Spotify, Apple Music, Pandora and others.
#1138583 - 03/14/18 09:09 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Wendy D Offline
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Wendy D  Offline
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RainyDayMan, Tammy and Janice/Bud,

Thanks so much for listening and posting a comment. Mike really hit this one out of the park for me. My version was "ok" but when I took to Mike and we talked "jug band," I knew it was either going to be a crazy experiment or it would have legs. I think it's got legs.

J & B - where in Georgia are you based? I live in the Decatur area. We have a little band called Blackfoot Daisy. We would love to meet you guys in person and jam or something!


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1138584 - 03/14/18 09:10 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
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Wendy D  Offline
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OH and I will get back and listen/comment on some tunes over here. This week has been kicking my butt work-wise.


http://www.reverbnation.com/wendydumond

https://soundcloud.com/#mamby-p

http://www.reverbnation.com/donsechelski

Link for Blackfoot Daisy band


You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
#1138590 - 03/14/18 10:40 AM Re: Sheena of the Jungle (Wendy DuMond) [Re: Wendy D]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Dave Rice Online content
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Dave Rice  Online Content
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Texas
You've been sent a Music Related PM. Looking forward to a reply.

Thanks, ----Dave


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