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#824792 - 06/14/10 07:24 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: bil farrar]  
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Wayne Longtin Offline
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Mike,

I sure will let you know. As far as I know now I'm booked the rest of the summer with festivals & gigs but in September I'll be back for the Loretta Lynn Ranch Songfest & want to do some songwriter nights again in Nashville. The powers that be have my demo for a possible appearance at Nashville Cowboy Church hopefully the date will co-incide (SP?) with the Songfest dates. Got an inside track there with Dawn & Charley Parker. So maybe it'll work. Are all Bass Players Coffee drinkers? I know some of the best I know are!

#831227 - 07/16/10 05:24 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: ]  
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Kitty84 Offline
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@Stan I like your lottery theory!


Kate <3

– "The strongest drive is not love or hate. It is one person's need to correct/modify/alter/edit/change/rewrite another's copy."
#1125374 - 03/14/17 05:26 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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DesireInspires Offline
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Hey Kathy,

Have I been Summoned? Hello Cindy. I'm Marc-Alan Barnette or MAB, I teach songwriting and the practical application of the music business based in Nashville Tn. I have been in this business for about 36 years and work every day at teaching writers and artists in the craft of the music industry.

Imagine if you will the National football league. You are in Missouri so I will just take the Kansas City Chiefs for an example. Think about how many kids play sandlot football. Then how many actually play some kind of junior league or pee wee football. Then some play for their elementary school, then go on through Junior High and then High School. By the time they get to Senior year, they have spent about 8 years of constant practice, giving up vacations to play summer practices, constantly in the weight room, totally consumed.

But even that does not guarantee they are going to get to colledge and even that does not guarantee that they are going to play professionally. SO that starts out with millions, files down to thousands, hundreds, and then less than dozens that actually end up going anywhere, ever.

Songwriting is very similar. There are millions that are trying to write some kind of songs. At the most recent count there were about 13 million bands, duos, solos, on You Tube alone. That is millions of people, even more millions of songs. We are at the convergence of several things.

Karaoke which made everyone an amatuer singer.

Computer and the internet and home recording which put everyone into the game.

And it removed a majority of the money made in the music industry.

So basically it is enormous supply and very finite demand. And the people who do this professionally have done this for dozens of years, an average of twenty, doing it almost every day. That is your competition.

You are more likely to be struck by lightning than to get a successful artist to cut your song.

You are more likely to be struck by lightning in a submarine underwater than to have any significant success.

The answer? You totally remove any thoughts of making money and do it as a hobby. If you are very driven you do it as a second job. And you put as much time, effort and money into it as your first job. Because if you don't, your competition does.

The point is that we are all doing it as hobbies. Even those who actually get paid to do it. All of us have multiple businesses in addition to our music endevors. I am fortunate that I am paid for music only. But that goes in numerous directions. Teaching, seminars, workshops, live performances, producing and performing on demo recordings, etc.

I am typing this to you at nearly midnight on Tuesday. I have done a recording session, done multiple threads on these type forums all day long, done multiple song critiques, wrote on two songs, booked five of my songwriter tours for the next two months, made organizational plans in Atlanta for the next three days, and a live songwriter's show. My day starts at 7:00 in the morning. That is a normal day.

So that is what it is really about. Hours and hours of continuous work that has nothing to do with writing music, and dozens of things that make the writing possible. That is what making a living in music is about now.

A primary reason for that is that people rarely pay for music anymore. The industry has lost around 6 billion dollars in the past 7 years. So that is why if you want to do this, you will have to look much deeper into the reality than you are thinking.

Before anyone gets a royalty check, they have to get a reality check.

My advice would be:

#1 Get outside yourself.
Get around other writers.
Attend workshops, seminars,
make a trip to a music center.

#2 Write MANY songs.
An average writer will write 125 songs with 65 people a year.

#3 Do as much as you can do locally before even considering expanding. Learn your craft first.

#4. Be happy in whatever comes your way and never expect anything. That way you will always be pleastantly surprised.

There are many great things about it. You meet wonderful people on sites like these. They are of varying degrees of success and various levels of talent. Listen to them. Learn your craft.

Be happy with yourself and what you achieve. Work hard. Write often. And most of all, touch lives.

At the end of the day, that is what is important.

MAB


Words of wisdom! Not much has changed for the better over the years.

#1125385 - 03/14/17 11:15 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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That was a good post by Marc, not sure where the original went. I agree with most everything Marc said but one point. In comparison to the football players at various levels, but not everyone will make it. The reason for that is because in the end, they dint have the talent to play at the higher level. Some kids are great in pee wee league, and can't make a high school team, some kids excel in High school, but don't get a scholarship to college, some kids do great at college but the pros don't have nterest. Even some make the pros but get cut It's based entirely on how good you are, how atheletic you are, how fast you run the forty, how high you can jump, how quick yiu are, and how good your vision is. Now, some guys do go unoticed, and some come out of nowhwere and have unlikely careers. But you can not play at the pro level and not be one of e best athetes in the country. But some guys can sneak in with an unrelenting work ethic, and perseverance, but they still have top notch talent compared to the rest of the field.

In music it's not based on how great of a singer or songwriter, or musician you are, sure that's part of it, but it's based on marketability, your look, luck, and just having a really good song. You don't have to be the worlds greatest songwriter to have a hit, you just need to be good, but have a lot of help.

Music is subjective, that's why Taylor Swift can dominate the charts, people like her music, nothing else really matters, there is no stop watch or measurement of what the best music is, it's opinion, but she couldn't play for a football team!

Last edited by Trentb; 03/14/17 11:18 PM.
#1125480 - 03/16/17 12:58 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Trent,

The comparrison to sports, football just being one, to me is very comparable to music. I have known hundreds of artists, writers, musicians, who are amazingly talented, but get stuck in development deals, get put on hold, never actually get a shot. Things beyond their control, labels and publishers folding, or selling to other companies staffs begin cut, having releases held up do to political considerations, etc. Some rise above it, end up in other avenues of music, etc. One of my good friends is the top independent song plugger in Nashville. Responsible for many great hits. He didn't want to do that, started as a writer, and actually pretty good. But that never took off, so he ended up in publishing and then song plugging

You find a lot of amazing writers that were really good performers, but by the time their shot rolled around might have been too old, so they found themselves focusing on writing. Then getting cuts, but not singles, etc. then they end up teaching ,producing or doing jobs totally unrelated to music. Doesn't mean their talent wasn't there, just breaks didn't go their way.

In my own case, when I moved to Nashville in 1988, I was "The guy to watch." Got a cut my first night in town, was recruited by labels, publishers, producers, etc. had a lot going on. At the time there was a movement in country music called the "Blue Eyed Soul" country songs. People like Delbert McClinton, T Graham Brown, Lee Roy Parnell. I was in that vein. As a matter of fact, after one of my shows a guy approached me and said, "Man I love everything about you, your attitude, your voice, your songs, everything. But I was in Marietta Ga. three weeks ago and signed a guy just like you. His name is TRAVIS TRITT. "
Even after Travis hit and hit big, I was still in the running. Another label, Liberty was after me and did a showcase to seal the deal. But at the same time this kid from Oklahoma named Garth Brooks, came in and changed everything in Country music. All the "soul shouters" were out, and the "ironed shirts and jeans, cowboy hat" wearing guys were in. Just missed. After a while I switched more to being a writer and got cuts, but none of the singles.

We miss a lot of things. Some wounds are self inflicted. At an ASCAP number one party I was approached by a 15 year old girl and her Mother. Of course at the same party there were about 50 OTHER 15 year old girls and THEIR mothers. I was told by a hit writer friend of mine that she was someone I should write with. But I had had a really bad experience with THREE 14 year old girls and THEIR MOTHERS, a few weeks before and had determined I was not working with anyone else under 18. That girl turned out to be Taylor Swift. I sure showed me.

The point is that there are a lot of things that happen in the course of a career, the business is a weird one and it is hard to really predict or adjust to. You have to roll with it and adapt as you go. In music ,I became more of a teacher, mentor. coach and consultant which is what I do now. Still write, perform. record, I just do it with other people now instead of me.

My analogy to sports are much the same. How many people are really good as younger athletes, but burn out, get hurt, or just decide to quit? College prospects that get drafted but wash out. Some times behavioral problems, drugs, alcohol, etc. that never cut it. The people drafted by the pros that wash out, Ryan Leaf, Brian Bosworth. Or how about the ones that are amazing but on really bad teams. The Buffalo Bills, going to four Super Bowls, but never winning. Or the OTHER thing, the people who have that ONE great season, get to the college championships, the Super Bowl, but NEVER do anything after that. Team is traded away, again get hurt or just washes out.

So that is what I am talking about. There are a lot of ins and outs, a lot of other reasons besides someone's talent. Luck plays an amazing part, more than anyone would like to admit. But to me, luck is when opportunity and preparation meet. All you can do is up the level of your odds and keep going.

Thanks for reading and responding.

MAB

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 03/16/17 01:19 PM.
#1125481 - 03/16/17 01:49 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Trentb Offline
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Your points are well taken. I'm just saying that even the "busts" in football had to have all American, world talent to even step on the field with the elite. Some times the scouts are wrong, they salivate over one player, and he can't deliver, other guys go unoticed, and make it. There has been many cases of a player selling car insurance one day, playing the next week in a real game! Happens when a team suffers a lot of injuries. But these replacements are still documented world class athletes. If you can't run the forty in 4.3, your going to go backwards in the pros. There are tons and tons of talented sports people who never made it, but imagine if they were slow and short? What were their odds then? Zilch.

In music, if u want to call a record label exec, a scout, he's not looking to see how many chords yiu know, or how great of a musician you are, or not even how good of a singer you are, he's looking for other things. I mean look at all the great technical singers on American Idol, or the Voice, none of those people have the careers of Taylor Swift who is a marginal singer. Or Bob Dylan, tom petty, Springsteen, or just about any big music star, there's just many more great singers out there who do jingles instead of sell out arenas

Look at the sex pistols, they had minimal talent and still are widely known today. Look at the one hit wonders, they didn't need unworldly talent to break in, they got in anyway... In sports, your not stepping on the field if you are not great

Music has so many dimensions to it. But I doubt anybody would have the gumption to say somebody like Stevie wonder is not more talented than Taylor swift, but Taylor swift has outsold him in every way.

Last edited by Trentb; 03/16/17 01:53 PM.
#1125494 - 03/17/17 02:06 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Ted Martin Offline
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Once upon a time the only way for musicians to get paid was to play live. Then there was the Golden Age of recorded music when people actually had to buy the recorded music to be able to listen to it when they wanted. Now anyone with a cell phone can record audio and video of live shows and download or stream music for little or nothing. Back to having to play live (and sell merch) to make money from your music. Problem is you have to be able to play and sing and be entertaining or have people with you who can do whichever you can't.

Doing house concerts will not make you rich but you will make more from your songs than you will pitching them to people who don't care. And if you are really lucky someone will take one of your songs change it enough so they can't be sued, it will play on the radio and you can be just like this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erdlUyllNhU

#1125496 - 03/17/17 05:06 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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Making music and making money are two different entities. Anyone interested in the latter shouldn’t consider music for a living. Music’s about passion. Only pursue it if you can’t live without it.

John smile

#1125505 - 03/17/17 01:50 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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niteshift Online content
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Amen ! smile

cheers, niteshift

#1125506 - 03/17/17 01:54 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Nashville, Tn.
Very true John. Very true.

Trent, if you were around the industry in places like Nashville, New York.; LA, you would find literally THOUSANDS of people in development deals, publishing deals, working with small and independent groups, doing their own projects, web sites, motivating their own fan bases and careers. There are hundreds of writers, thousands of songs that are the equivilent of playing the minor leagues or triple A.
They get various shots, from small single releases that go no where, are paid to write songs but get no cuts or don't recoup enough to pay their draws back and are dropped. Many are amazingly talented but the breaks don't go their way.

There are dozens of weekly showcases in this town. The same as football or baseball tryouts. Those amazing prospects that have backing behind them, financial, political clout, street credibility, etc. and things still don't work. Songs that are amazing but just don't find their way.

This is the same as athletes that might not get to play because there is some monster standout player in their position. Micky Mantle waiting till Joe Dimaggio faded. And his knees already being in terrible shape. But there are even more that played backup for Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, or people and just never got the playing time, got traded to weak teams.

There are paralells in all of it, and the closer you get to it, see what's "behind the curtain" in inner office politics, burn out, or thousands of things that can happen, the more you realize how strange it all is.

Ted, house concerts are a good way to perform and keep yourself out there. The biggest problem is that venues closed and the dynamic of the music business shifted, those avenues got clogged up as well. There are millions of writers and artists that would love to go out book some house concerts, play their own songs, make nice money and move on. The good venues are pretty booked up. They are actually booked years in advance and can even get higher level people like artists with former record deals or other people that now would rather play smaller venues without the overhead of bands, additional costs.

A few years ago colleges were a great avenue. Then they got overwhelmed. Now they are very expensive to plug into the things like National Association of College Artists, or other things that have the conventions and showcase events. You had to join a lot of organizations to be considered. Same with the fair circuits, and house concerts. All have their own etticate, on hirearchies. They are cool to do, but not as easy as just making a phone call here and there.

If there is money involved in anything ,there are circles that have to be worked into. Everything has a price.
MAB

#1125509 - 03/17/17 03:06 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Ted Martin Offline
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Oregon
Here is a good story that shows what John is talking about when it comes to pursuing music out of passion. For most of us it will never be more than an enjoyable hobby. Which is to say it will cost us more than we will ever make from it yet we still do it because we can't live without it. https://medium.com/@jackconte/pomplamoose-2014-tour-profits-67435851ba37#.74uei8ad5

#1125510 - 03/17/17 03:28 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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You know, it's interesting that this post got reinvigorated. It got started a while back and I responded on quite a few things and it has taken on some great posts. But basically it is a question pretty much everyone trying to do music is asking. "HOW DO I MAKE MONEY AT THIS?" If you knew how many HIT songwriters and many artists ask this same question, lit would put things in quite the different perspective. But the simple answer really is:

HOW MUCH PRODUCT CAN YOU PERSONALLY SELL?
HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD COME SEE YOU, YOUR CO-WRITERS, PARTNERS, ETC. PERFORM?
HOW CONSISTENT CAN YOU BE IN YOUR CAREER?
WHAT IS THE VALUE OF YOUR PRODUCT AND EFFORTS TO YOU AND TO OTHERS?

When you begin to answer these questions, you can start to understand how you make money at this.

MAB

#1125511 - 03/17/17 03:37 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Ted Martin Offline
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Oregon
The definition of luck is that it is where preparation meets opportunity. But you may never get the opportunity and there is no guarantee that if you do that you will hit the mark. Yet we still try because the alternative is unthinkable. Sure many of the good venues in the house concert circuit may be booked in advance but there are many, many hosts who are looking for performers and with persistence and "luck" you can get yourself in front of live audiences. Where the rubber meets the road is playing to a live audience of people who are not your sycophantic friends that have taken time out of their busy lives and paid money to be entertained. Better have your [naughty word removed] together.

Here is a good resource for anyone who wants to pursue that avenue. If nothing else you might even be tempted to be a host which is what I plan to do once I get back into my house that was landlocked by eminent domain.

http://www.concertsinyourhome.com/index.php

#1126168 - 04/03/17 10:03 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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MichelleMarie Offline
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I have had spurts where I get all excited and think- I really would love to have just one song go somewhere. And, then, reality hits and I realize- Yeah, that could happen. But, these days, I have resigned myself to the fact that I am writing for God, for myself, and for other people. I am, most likely, at the most, going to be able to share some of my songs with other people and touch them in a positive way. And, really that is the most important thing. I am not going to stop knocking on doors to see what could be possible. But, I am not going to give up or get let down if my big break never comes.

I remember back the end of 2006, I read about a woman and some things she went through in her life. And, her story prompted me to write what I believe to be the best Christian song I have ever written. When I was done writing and recording it using a keyboard and my in-home digital recording studio, I sent the song to her. She said it made her cry and I knew that it touched her life. I now give that song away to as many people who want it as a free digital download.

I have paid the $9.95 a month at Reverbnation and I take advantage of the opportunities on that site. I have a "buy now" link on a few of my songs on a website or two where I have my songs. I also look for any opportunities on this website.

After writing for close to 30 years, and after giving away my keyboard and digital recorder, I am ok with moving onto other things. I am not writing any new music. But, the ones that have survived. The few songs out of the hundreds I have written that I believe have a shot, the ones other people have also agreed are my strongest, those I am going to just see for fun if they will ever go anywhere. So, yes, for fun and for other people- to touch their lives, that is what I am seeking and focusing on. Anything more- Well it will be a miracle!

#1126177 - 04/04/17 08:30 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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Everett Adams  Online Content
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99% of what I write now are Christian songs. You are less likely to make money on Gospel music than many other genres of music, but you never know how many lives you might touch and help change through Christian songs. Only in eternity will you know, only in eternity will you receive your reward, but eternity last for forever.

#1126185 - 04/04/17 10:56 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: MichelleMarie]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Originally Posted by MichelleMarie
I have had spurts where I get all excited and think- I really would love to have just one song go somewhere. And, then, reality hits and I realize- Yeah, that could happen. But, these days, I have resigned myself to the fact that I am writing for God, for myself, and for other people. I am, most likely, at the most, going to be able to share some of my songs with other people and touch them in a positive way. And, really that is the most important thing. I am not going to stop knocking on doors to see what could be possible. But, I am not going to give up or get let down if my big break never comes.

I remember back the end of 2006, I read about a woman and some things she went through in her life. And, her story prompted me to write what I believe to be the best Christian song I have ever written. When I was done writing and recording it using a keyboard and my in-home digital recording studio, I sent the song to her. She said it made her cry and I knew that it touched her life. I now give that song away to as many people who want it as a free digital download.

I have paid the $9.95 a month at Reverbnation and I take advantage of the opportunities on that site. I have a "buy now" link on a few of my songs on a website or two where I have my songs. I also look for any opportunities on this website.

After writing for close to 30 years, and after giving away my keyboard and digital recorder, I am ok with moving onto other things. I am not writing any new music. But, the ones that have survived. The few songs out of the hundreds I have written that I believe have a shot, the ones other people have also agreed are my strongest, those I am going to just see for fun if they will ever go anywhere. So, yes, for fun and for other people- to touch their lives, that is what I am seeking and focusing on. Anything more- Well it will be a miracle!


Hi Michelle! If your songs are broadcast quality try Crucial Music: https://www.crucialmusic.com/ You can submit up to three songs online. Good luck!

Best, John smile

#1130540 - 09/09/17 05:21 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Pat Hardy Offline
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Pat Hardy  Offline
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Originally Posted by cindyrella
Granted, I'm fairly new at this whole thing, but I do think I have talent for lyric writing and have worked some with a couple of guys but it really went no where as far as hearing my music or making money.
I'm enjoying this anyway-a lot!-but I would like to see some rewards eventually. Advice?
Thanks,
Cindy Prince



Cindy, congrats on your lyric writing dreams. I suggest teaming up with someone good at melodies and putting notes to your words. Also be open to writing words to pre-written melodies, but one of the better ways is to sit down with a musician, nad both co-write the song right there - collaborating in one session or two or three, and allow it to emerge as a joined copyright. I've done this, and it's a lot of fun, I'll hum a line, and the lyricist will give me some words, and give me some more words, which helps me find some more notes, and take the song in a direction, and the song just emerges in a unified composition, like planting a seed and watching a flower bloom. Other times, i get a lyric idea, and write both lyrics and words, but lyrics are hard for me, i struggle with them. For some folks, they come easily, I envy people like that.

Making money is the big one, we all want that, but very difficult to achieve. Best way to make money is to write a song, make a master, and try and license it to film and tV, and a good way to do that is to submit the song to many music libraries that exist. There are directories for sale on the internet, just google them.

If and when you do this, get a collaboration agreement signed with the composer, trust me on that one.

There is a lot to learn, as there are pitfalls, so do your due diligence. there are a few composers on this forum experienced with licensing ( called master and sync licensing ) to film and TV and commercials.. I'm trying, but no real success yet, though I've signed with a number of publishers. I agree with Lawrence, if you have a good song, Crucial Music will go to bat on your tune, not let it just there in a shopping cart, they'll actually pitch your song and let you know all activity associated with that song. None of the other publishers I've signed with do that. ( CM pitches masters to film & TV ).







Last edited by Pat Hardy; 09/09/17 05:33 AM.
#1130587 - 09/12/17 10:29 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
Joined: May 2017
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Gavin Sinclair Offline
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Gavin Sinclair  Offline
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Conover, North Carolina, USA
When it comes to making money, there is a reliable formula.

1. Write several really good songs
2. Learn to play them really well or find someone who can.
3. Learn all about recording.
4. Record the songs.
5. Put them on Spotify or something.
6. Get a job selling insurance.

#1130814 - 09/20/17 12:09 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 158
MATT STONEHAM Offline
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MATT STONEHAM  Offline
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Le Monde
Here is something that works , Start out in bands as soon as you hit your teens

Singer Guitarist Bass Player or Drummer Keyboards Brass whatever;

Learn the basics of music , develop your ear as well as reading the dots

Play in as many different Genres as you can , or are least the ones you enjoy

Think about interesting titles not copies of other peoples hits

By all means study other peoples hits , and dissect them find out why they work

When you get pretty good at writing, this could be any time between Ten to Fifty years

Take ten good titles, all in different styles of popular music , and work on each one , dont

get in a rut, move on and re write the lines that dont ring true to the ear, keep the good stuff

Get or make your own backing tracks, and store them in Wave Format


Record your vocals , and add instrumental riffs where they are needed.

Finally listen to every lyrical phrase and improve on them, making sure every line or phrase

compliments what has gone before, and what come next, this could take between five to ten years

it will vary from Writer to Writer

It wont work for everything you write you will discard some songs and maybe re write some of

them from the start,

You Could end up making money , writing quality songs , or you may just keep it as a hobby ;

This process has worked for many pro writers , but you have to have talent and the will to succeed


Pitching your songs is something else and all part of the process to succeed

And of course read and keep reading the best books available on the art of song writing











Last edited by MATT STONEHAM; 09/20/17 12:23 PM. Reason: spelling

Without the right music your clever lyrics will never be heard, if you want success be prepared to re write many times and even change the meter you chose originally
#1130821 - 09/20/17 02:28 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
Joined: Dec 2008
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Find your niche. Do something different. Look different. Think different. Don’t be an imitator. Compose horror music. Good luck!

Best, John smile

#1135231 - 01/19/18 04:36 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
Joined: Dec 2006
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niteshift Online content
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niteshift  Online Content
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Sydney, Australia
And above all else, create your product to the extreme. Well above your competition.

Don't think about the money, that will come later. And it will only come as a result of your hard work, diligence, and attention to your craft.

regards, niteshift

#1135491 - 01/24/18 02:35 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Trentb]  
Joined: Dec 2001
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Jody Whitesides Offline
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"Music has so many dimensions to it. But I doubt anybody would have the gumption to say somebody like Stevie wonder is not more talented than Taylor swift, but Taylor swift has outsold him in every way."

This is a weird statement - minus the talent part. One, the population of people at the time Stevie was at the height of his career was literally about half of what it was when Taylor was at the height of hers. Two, the means of distribution changed dramatically between his career and hers. It was harder to reach more people during his heyday, it was substantially easier to reach more during her heyday. So yeah, she could easily outsell him from sheer numbers.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1135502 - 01/24/18 03:59 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Not sur about that Jody. The Beatles outsold Taylor Swift.

Stevie Wonder example was used, I'm guessing, as an example of somebody with unworldly talent. He had great success, but he's not as successful business wise as Taylor Swift, or Miley Cyrus.

He didn't have as wide spread of an audience.

I don't particular like listening to his music, but his talent is somethjng this world will never see again. Arguably the greatest singer to ever walk earth, and musical chops to boot.

Taylor swift could lose a singing completion at a local bar.

She has talent in other ways though

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/24/18 04:01 PM.
#1135515 - 01/24/18 07:52 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
"Music has so many dimensions to it. But I doubt anybody would have the gumption to say somebody like Stevie wonder is not more talented than Taylor swift, but Taylor swift has outsold him in every way."

This is a weird statement - minus the talent part. One, the population of people at the time Stevie was at the height of his career was literally about half of what it was when Taylor was at the height of hers. Two, the means of distribution changed dramatically between his career and hers. It was harder to reach more people during his heyday, it was substantially easier to reach more during her heyday. So yeah, she could easily outsell him from sheer numbers.


Yup


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#1135892 - 01/30/18 01:35 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Mar 2002
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Dominique H. Preyer Offline
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Dominique H. Preyer  Offline
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San Antonio, TX, USA
Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
"Music has so many dimensions to it. But I doubt anybody would have the gumption to say somebody like Stevie wonder is not more talented than Taylor swift, but Taylor swift has outsold him in every way."

This is a weird statement - minus the talent part. One, the population of people at the time Stevie was at the height of his career was literally about half of what it was when Taylor was at the height of hers. Two, the means of distribution changed dramatically between his career and hers. It was harder to reach more people during his heyday, it was substantially easier to reach more during her heyday. So yeah, she could easily outsell him from sheer numbers.


Is there any calculations that would determine what Stevie Wonder's sales would be in 2018? Kind of like a $10,000 annual salary in 1970 would be $64,390 in 2018. Same with distribution per capita or something like that?

#1135980 - 01/31/18 12:54 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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His sales would be considerably less today because people don't buy music.

Jodys point about population makes little sense because the biggest selling albums of all time are all old school. Top 8 of all time right here.

The only reason Stevie Wonder was used is because his net worth is a Qtr
Of say Taylor Swift, who I do like, but you could easily plug in any current underground singer songwriter who blows Taylor away if u wanted to.

It's whatever the media deems the best that becomes the best, watch the Grammies, that tells the whole story of how most music is left out of the picture

http://www.businessinsider.com/50-best-selling-albums-all-time-2016-9

Fleetwood Mac — "Rumours" ...
Garth Brooks — "Double Live" Capitol Nashville. ...
AC/DC — "Back In Black" Epic. ...
Pink Floyd — "The Wall" Columbia. ...
Led Zeppelin — "Led Zeppelin IV" Atlantic. ...
Billy Joel — "Greatest Hits Volume 1 & Volume 2" Columbia. ...
Eagles — "Their Greatest Hits (1971-1975)" Elektra. ...
Michael Jackson — "Thriller" Epic.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/31/18 01:18 PM.
#1136000 - 01/31/18 05:32 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Dominique H. Preyer]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,504
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


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Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by Dominique H. Preyer
Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
"Music has so many dimensions to it. But I doubt anybody would have the gumption to say somebody like Stevie wonder is not more talented than Taylor swift, but Taylor swift has outsold him in every way."

This is a weird statement - minus the talent part. One, the population of people at the time Stevie was at the height of his career was literally about half of what it was when Taylor was at the height of hers. Two, the means of distribution changed dramatically between his career and hers. It was harder to reach more people during his heyday, it was substantially easier to reach more during her heyday. So yeah, she could easily outsell him from sheer numbers.


Is there any calculations that would determine what Stevie Wonder's sales would be in 2018? Kind of like a $10,000 annual salary in 1970 would be $64,390 in 2018. Same with distribution per capita or something like that?



It could be figured out if a nerd with time would make yearly adjustments in the ever changing monetary value combined with the needed hile figuring in per capita effects as population grows. Probably a few hours of math combined with the needed data would doit. It would be interesting.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1136010 - 01/31/18 07:27 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Dec 2001
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Jody Whitesides Offline
Jody Whitesides  Offline

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Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
His sales would be considerably less today because people don't buy music.

Jodys point about population makes little sense because the biggest selling albums of all time are all old school. Top 8 of all time right here.

The only reason Stevie Wonder was used is because his net worth is a Qtr
Of say Taylor Swift, who I do like, but you could easily plug in any current underground singer songwriter who blows Taylor away if u wanted to.

It's whatever the media deems the best that becomes the best, watch the Grammies, that tells the whole story of how most music is left out of the picture

Why are you changing the definition of my original statement? I'm not bashing her or Stevie, only pointing out that the industry and the population has changed and one cannot relate talent to sales or income.

The media isn't determining the GRAMMYS outcome. How do you figure that? Are you a voting member of NARAS/GRAMMYS?


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136023 - 02/01/18 02:33 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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@Jody

Your assessment of the comparison being a "WEIRD" statement. Which is fine, I know your not bashing either of them, you are giving your view of it, which was....

"The population of people at the time Stevie was at the height of his career was literally about half of what it was when Taylor was at the height of hers. "

So, if that is a factor, why have other artists from Stevie Wonders era earned more than Taylor Swift?

Stevie has actually sold more albums than Taylor, which is understandable because he has been around alot longer and also, people dont buy albums any more. But she has outsold him in terms of making money as an artist, and is more famous than he was.

Which the original point was, if talent decided how much people earn, it would be a landslide in favor of Stevie.

Simple point, success and money/fame, in the music business, is not based on talent, never has been really.

Jody: "The media isn't determining the GRAMMYS outcome. How do you figure that? Are you a voting member of NARAS/GRAMMYS?"

Didnt say the media controls the Grammys.

The media controls who gets heard. The Grammys is just a reflection of how the music business is run. Only a limited number of people get in the door.

And then the Grammy's is supposed to represent the best of the best? No, the Grammys represent, maybe, the best of tthe most widely publicized artists...that year.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/01/18 02:42 AM.
#1136025 - 02/01/18 03:53 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Jody Whitesides Offline
Jody Whitesides  Offline

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Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Stevie has actually sold more albums than Taylor, which is understandable because he has been around alot longer and also, people dont buy albums any more. But she has outsold him in terms of making money as an artist, and is more famous than he was.

Hence the reason why I said the population comes into effect. You're making my point for me.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
The media controls who gets heard. The Grammys is just a reflection of how the music business is run. Only a limited number of people get in the door.

And then the Grammy's is supposed to represent the best of the best? No, the Grammys represent, maybe, the best of tthe most widely publicized artists...that year.

The media is a factor, but it is not who controls who gets heard any more. Streaming has changed that. Artists that can garner the streams will eventually be picked up by media, but unless you're already a mega-star, the media takes its cues from streaming. If your theory was the case, Bruno Mars would not have won all the GRAMMYS he won this year. Other artists would have been nominated for more awards. Bruno certainly wasn't the one in the news, if at all. While the GRAMMYS don't have nearly the submissions as say the JPF Awards, there's still a very large amount of music to sort thru in the first round of voting.

Is there a prerequisite to submit for the GRAMMYS, or be a voting member, yes. They do tend to vet people to make sure they're working pros - is it foolproof, no. The blanket statement made here is not correct, though it is a common misconception.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136041 - 02/01/18 10:09 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,995
Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Brunswick, Ga. USA
So,
How do you make a million dollars in the music business. Well first you start out with two million.


Ray E. Strode
#1136044 - 02/01/18 10:38 AM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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@ Jody, nope, saying Stevie actually sold more records, which is understandable because he has been around longer, and people don't buy albums any more, has NOTHING to do with the population being half of what is is today, which on face value, seems the exact opposite should be true.

The technology changed, not how many people are around on planet earth. Are you defining population in an unusual way?

* The media can still influence by name dropping and harping on the same limited amounts of famous people.kardashian ring a bell?...

Ohhhh.. Taylor Swift kissed some guy, right in front of papparazzi, here is a new song in the making, let's read and wait for Taylor's emotional response to the trauma........ Media manipulation much? Taylor is master at it

The only categories that don't have names that are on the radio all year, or being written about are the obscure categories, like best Caribbean song for a documentary about warm watered fish.....

Streaming still has links to media, if millions of people are all streaming the same artists, they know the artist from somewhere, they don't know my music


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/01/18 10:47 AM.
#1136055 - 02/01/18 01:43 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Dec 2001
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Jody Whitesides Offline
Jody Whitesides  Offline

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Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
The technology changed, not how many people are around on planet earth. Are you defining population in an unusual way?

70s total population: 3.7 billion.
10s total population: 7.6 billion.

That's my unusual definition of population. I'm not a scientific mathematician, but I'm pretty sure that 3.7 is less than 7.6 by pretty close to half.

The whole media thing: There are still people today that don't know about the people of whom you speak. We all have our little niches in the world - and often we expect others to know our entire niche. That's not reality.

Are you a voting member of the GRAMMYS? (You haven't answered this question, so I'm asking it again) If so, then you'd understand how your example of obscure categories is incorrect. My assumption is that you are not, which would explain why you're not familiar with how they're laid out in categories and/or voted upon. You definitely have your opinion on how it works, but it doesn't appear to be based in fact.

When I talk to people about how they hear of the artists they listen to, its generally from word of mouth - especially with streaming. For me personally it comes from work requests, word of mouth and Spotify's recommendations. I get friends texting me links to music examples quite often, which is a great way to hear an artist and they still get paid for that listen. Couldn't do that prior to streaming services and smartphones. Can media help an artist? Sure, I don't disagree - however, its not the de facto standard it used to be.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136063 - 02/01/18 02:29 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Yes but u did not answer how the population being less in Stevie's time, means that Taylor Swift should make more money than he? When other artists like Led Zepplin and Billy Joel and the Eagles made more than she has, and made more in 70's dollars than she has in 2000 dollars

if the population was the reason she made more money than Stevie is correct, it shouldn't work in reverse.

No, I'm not a voting member of the Grammys, I know your dying to tell me you are. That's cool.

Why haven't you been nominated?

I'm not buying the word of mouth thing being the reason why k own stars get more streams than people like us. They get more streams cause everybody knows who they are. How do they know? Because they are on the radio, they are written about, they have stronger online presence.

If I open Spotify right now, and listen to Hendrix, are you telling me that all the books, and tv specials, and documentaries, and how much radio has played him has nothing to do with me clicking his name?

Word of mouth maybe worked for the grateful dead, and underground ears, but word of mouth will not bring in millions of streams.

#1138488 - 03/12/18 01:26 PM Re: Okay, so how do I make money at this? [Re: cindyrella]  
Joined: Feb 2006
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Germain Brunet Offline
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Germain Brunet  Offline
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Ontario, Canada
It's a tough business. Do it because you love it and if the money comes...then great but don't do it for the money. Anyway, that's the way I look at it.

Germain

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Mar 16th, 2017
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"When will we all, as artists, creators and facilitators learn that the so-called experts in our lives are nothing more than someone who has stepped forward and called themselves an expert?" –Brian Austin Whitney
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