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#1135105 - 01/16/18 02:03 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Btw, this notion of its just a tool,

It's a tool that at its very best sounds like cheesy elevator music.

Ask Mac or Johnny or mark or sub if they think band in a box is a tool to record professional track with.

A 39 dollar Casio with built in drum machine was a tool too, I don't think they made too many hit records using one

#1135116 - 01/16/18 07:36 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Vicarn Online content
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A missed point could be:
Five live musicians don't make a hit either, without the songwriter, arranger and producer.
BIAB doesn't write a hit song on it's own.
It needs a lot of help. It's a tool.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2
#1135123 - 01/16/18 09:49 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Btw, this notion of its just a tool,

It's a tool that at its very best sounds like cheesy elevator music.

Ask Mac or Johnny or mark or sub if they think band in a box is a tool to record professional track with.

A 39 dollar Casio with built in drum machine was a tool too, I don't think they made too many hit records using one


Iíve been in the studio with two of the people you have mentioned so Iíll chime in.

ďIs band in a box is a tool to record professional track with?Ē Professional/radio ready No!, Demo yes. BIAB helps those who donít have the money, talent or resources sound much better. Like any other computer program garbage in gives you garbage out or elevator music as you call it. BIAB in the hands of a skilled musician will give you results that are fantastic. Mix in some well played live instruments and it becomes pretty gosh darn good.

Oh and it wasnít a 39 dollar Casio, but Gary Wright made an entire album using a keyboard. Same principal.

#1135125 - 01/17/18 02:46 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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@ Vicarn, terrible songs can be made to sound great with the right recordings and production, and instrumentation. People with biab can't do that. It will make a terrible song even worse. Though I agree it takes a team to make a great record.

@ Iggy,

ďIs band in a box is a tool to record professional track with?Ē Professional/radio ready No!, Demo yes. BIAB helps those who donít have the money, talent or resources sound much better.

Thats the honest answer I was looking for. Somehow it gets taken as an attack saying this, and a rebuttal begins
I agree with everything you said EXCEPT this:
"BIAB in the hands of a skilled musician will give you results that are fantastic."

it has nothing to do with skilled musicianship, because you are not playing anything.

Id say it's more like "in the hands of somebody with good ears, and computer savvy" it can make some nice recordings.

For me, as a guitar player, I dont like how it sounds, thats not to say that people dont get good sounding demos with it.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/17/18 02:49 AM.
#1135126 - 01/17/18 08:58 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Well, the first challenge is not to make a terrible song.
I hear through the grapevine that even the big studios use loops these days.

You may not like biab. You may not know how to use it. Many guitarists and other musicians do like it and are still learning how to get the best out of it.

I doubt if a non musician could get a decent song out of it. You need musical knowledge to fit it all together in a pleasing way.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2
#1135136 - 01/17/18 12:11 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Yeah, I didn't mean to say it didn't take knowledge of music to get good results. Somebody buying it thinking it be like some loop package where they didn't have to create anything and just rap over or sing over would not be happy with it.

It does take at least knowing what a chord is, and what a progression is, and knowledge of sound palates and what kind of arrangement you want. Song structures etc.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/17/18 12:12 PM.
#1135137 - 01/17/18 12:15 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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I think of this video. As stupid as it is, and people buy into it being this easy, but this guy couldn't have created this using biab, and what's overlooked is how good the finished product actually sounds.

With the right production and sound, anything can be made to sound great, even crap!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JV2s0UIPOQY

#1135148 - 01/17/18 05:21 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Lollylol! Priceless.
Good to see our Calvin in his early years.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2
#1135183 - 01/18/18 03:59 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Pat Hardy Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Hi Pat,

I address this about seven posts up on this page, in response to you there as well. I think there are more substantial things to worry about than if the use of a BIAB track ended up in a lawsuit involving an end-user (license owner). I mean, it's been several years and it hasn't happened yet.

As I said, any real lawsuit would have to be one end-user vs. another end-user, and that would be ridiculous, since BIAB users understand that Realtracks are created from the same source performances and would never sue over Realtracks. This doesn't mean that other things like composition or melody would be safe, but that has nothing to do with BIAB.

One can certainly copyright songs that have Realtracks in them. What, do you think the Library of Congress has a BIAB filter that sounds an alarm when they are used? No. It would take a recording artist that felt violated to come forward and sue another recording artist, and then they'd sort it out either in court or out of, but as I said, it probably wouldn't ever happen over Realtracks..

Mike


I hear ya, and some very valid points you make, but my situation is a little different than that. I have a few compositions, that I copyrighted as masters ( SR copyrights ) and secured publishing contracts, these publishers are trying to get deals in TV and film licensing them. Thing is, I haven't disclosed that some of the recordings employ the use of realtracks, which are, if you go by the definition used in Title 17, in the public domain ( given that they are available to anyone who purchases a copy of BIAB ) so I'm wondering if their lawyers knew exactly what "realtracks" were, would I be breaching the "no samples" clause in the contract I signed? I've been afraid to ask ( I needed the contract, but maybe I'm selling myself short down the road, thing is, I can't afford to hire live musicians ). I didnt make that clear in my previous post, but this is the reason I posted what I did.

Here is an example of the kinds of stuff I do with BIAB, it's great for latin and vintage jazz.

https://soundcloud.com/patricklockwood/you-stepped-into-my-life-1

Last edited by Pat Hardy; 01/18/18 04:03 PM.
#1135190 - 01/18/18 05:10 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Pat Hardy]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by Pat Hardy
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Hi Pat,

I address this about seven posts up on this page, in response to you there as well. I think there are more substantial things to worry about than if the use of a BIAB track ended up in a lawsuit involving an end-user (license owner). I mean, it's been several years and it hasn't happened yet.

As I said, any real lawsuit would have to be one end-user vs. another end-user, and that would be ridiculous, since BIAB users understand that Realtracks are created from the same source performances and would never sue over Realtracks. This doesn't mean that other things like composition or melody would be safe, but that has nothing to do with BIAB.

One can certainly copyright songs that have Realtracks in them. What, do you think the Library of Congress has a BIAB filter that sounds an alarm when they are used? No. It would take a recording artist that felt violated to come forward and sue another recording artist, and then they'd sort it out either in court or out of, but as I said, it probably wouldn't ever happen over Realtracks..

Mike


I hear ya, and some very valid points you make, but my situation is a little different than that. I have a few compositions, that I copyrighted as masters ( SR copyrights ) and secured publishing contracts, these publishers are trying to get deals in TV and film licensing them. Thing is, I haven't disclosed that some of the recordings employ the use of realtracks, which are, if you go by the definition used in Title 17, in the public domain ( given that they are available to anyone who purchases a copy of BIAB ) so I'm wondering if their lawyers knew exactly what "realtracks" were, would I be breaching the "no samples" clause in the contract I signed? I've been afraid to ask ( I needed the contract, but maybe I'm selling myself short down the road, thing is, I can't afford to hire live musicians ). I didnt make that clear in my previous post, but this is the reason I posted what I did.

Here is an example of the kinds of stuff I do with BIAB, it's great for latin and vintage jazz.

https://soundcloud.com/patricklockwood/you-stepped-into-my-life-1


Hi Pat,

Show me the part of title 17 that says audio that is available to anyone such as licensed owners of samples or loops is considered in "the public domain" ..? My understanding of sound recording copyright is that there's hardly anything considered public domain by current definition, and BIAB audio performances are twice removed from that definition in that they are owned by PG music and then licensed to BIAB users who then have a right to use "cut-up" versions (as opposed to the original performances that follow an intricate circle of fifths kind of song) of said performances in their works, and publish them, etc.

My guess is (and take this with a grain, please) is that you are fine. It really depends on the Library or Publishers in question, but I imagine the worst that would happen would be they'd stop representing your song. I imagine "their laywers" are worried about any possible lawsuits that might come from (unlicensed) samples being used in a song that they were representing, and there wouldn't be any lawsuits coming at them "from the outside" in regards Realtracks.

Of course, if a song with a Realtrack in it became poplular, the artist that was the original Realtrack performer (that was paid in work-for-hire fashion) might get miffed cuz they won't see any of that money, and then try a "hail mary, full of lawyers" lol--but that's like sour grapes, though perhaps justified, if you look at folks like Paul Simon who paid Los Lobos members and a bunch of New Orleans and African musicians to just come in and "jam some rhythm tracks" for him, and then he pays them outright but then used several of the performances on his Graceland Album. I don't think legally anyone successfully sued Paul Simon in this regard, though bad blood between Simon and Los Lobos remains to this day.

Why not just ask your publisher? Then you'll know for sure. If you are fearing action against you involving money--why would they do that? Where's the financial damage? Worst case--they'd probably thank you for coming forward and say, "sorry, we need to return your songs to you" --iow, if you ask your publisher, that AT LEAST prevents them from selling one of these songs and having it make them money and then they get slapped with a lawsuit..then they might want restitution from you..but I still doubt even that..cuz again..who would be suing--who would be "damaged?"

Mike



Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/18/18 05:29 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1135215 - 01/19/18 12:10 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Hi Michael,

This is a great thread and thanks for your insight.

I've been thinking about BIAB as an extra tool, as I don't have much free time. To work things up from scratch is very time consuming just for formatting, and for this task I have been used to Sony Acid. I like it's grid system and can drag and drop samples in any place, then say, copy the format of a verse or chorus, very time saving. Also it accepts any loop, and sound grab, vocals, live instruments, and MIDI and the plugins are great and limitless per track. Want to edit any part ? Real easy, just move or fade what you like.

I have an almost limitless sound library, so for me, this method works. Just replace with live tracks as required.

As my computer crashed, I need to start over, so my question is, in work terms, would you find BIAB a suitable tool in this regard ?



I'd just like to make a comment on some of the negative comments being presented.

Firstly, anyone who doesn't use, or doesn't know how to use the tools available to them is simply wasting their time. If you are not familiar with writing, arrangement, production and post production, then the wonders of digital production are of no use. All production services use all available methods to get the best results they can, be it a top line studio or a smaller production house. On time and on budget is the rule.

I was first introduced to computer aided production re:musicians at a professional level in 1993, in a very expensive studio. In this case a drummer who was doing a session for me. He had a sponsorship with Roland amongst others, and whilst setting up, he attached MIDI pressure sensitive sensors to his acoustic kit. Why ? Whilst playing, the drum kit is also laying a MIDI track. In post, you can use that to trigger/overlay say a snare with a sampled sound, hence total freedom of post production. Also, you can correct "mistakes" in feel and grove. He was an excellent drummer and also gave a level of service which few could attain. The MIDI track was only used, as it happens, for snare and kick overlay.

Second, and the main point is, what's real ? In the production of music nothing is or has been real since music could be amplified and recorded over a hundred years ago. Is techno real or is it fake because it's all "artificial" instrumentation and sound samples ? Does a piano player play a digital piano instead of a grand studio piano ? Of course he does, so he can manipulate the recording and post mix down. Are samples "real" Of course they are, played by professional studio musicians in multi-million dollar sound stages.

As the actress said to the Bishop, it's not what you've got, it's all in how you use it. wink

Thanks for your insights Michael, it's a good discussion.

cheers, niteshift

#1135244 - 01/19/18 11:40 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Hi, I don't find raising the question if a software is effective for pro recordings to be negative, I'm sorry if it's taken that way.

It's also helpful to steer people towards better possibilities, if possible.

It seems money changes perspectives. There is no doubt that biab is probably the best pre made arrangement piece for the money. And the instruments sound pretty good. But when people complain about not denting the music scene, it never dawns on them that the music they produce may not be on par with others, and that may be the reason, it might not be the only reason, but it's one.

We all agree it's a tool. The question is how good the tool is.

There are hundred dollar tools, thousand dollar tools, tens of thousand dollar tools, and upwards.

I think the few hundred bucks invested is fine, and can be lots of fun. I bought the basic kit about 7-8 years ago, and tried to convince myself it was the best thing I could do.

It's not software snobbery, I love ez drummer, for drums I can do just about anything with it my imgaination can think up. But that's drums, not chordal instruments.

There is a lack of emotion in biab, there has to be otherwise the emotions would spill over and you'd be using a heartbreaking guitar solo, over your happy vocal etc. it's vagueness is what makes biab work in so many applications.

I just question the pro calibreness of it.




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/19/18 12:02 PM.
#1135262 - 01/19/18 08:52 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: niteshift]  
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Originally Posted by niteshift
Hi Michael,

This is a great thread and thanks for your insight.

I've been thinking about BIAB as an extra tool, as I don't have much free time. To work things up from scratch is very time consuming just for formatting, and for this task I have been used to Sony Acid. I like it's grid system and can drag and drop samples in any place, then say, copy the format of a verse or chorus, very time saving. Also it accepts any loop, and sound grab, vocals, live instruments, and MIDI and the plugins are great and limitless per track. Want to edit any part ? Real easy, just move or fade what you like.

I have an almost limitless sound library, so for me, this method works. Just replace with live tracks as required.

As my computer crashed, I need to start over, so my question is, in work terms, would you find BIAB a suitable tool in this regard ?



Hi Geoff,

I hope I am misreading you and you had your programs and samples backed up on external drives and are just dreading having to get everything re-authorized which in and of itself is a big PITA.

Although BIAB ships with a workstation (Realband) I'd recommend sticking with a real DAW and using BIAB simply to generate raw tracks based on your chordal input, then inporting those tracks into your workstation.. Even Acid would work fine in tandem with BIAB.

You probably know enough about BIAB to know that it generates performances based on chordal input. I would not recommend it for folks looking to make Electronica, but for pop and jazz and country and everything in between those genres, it's fine. It's as fast to learn and as intuitive as Acid, and does one thing really well that neither Acid or any DAW can do, and that's to generate complete performances/tracks based on chordal input with literally hundreds of instruments and styles at your disposal. I forget the exact number, but the 2018 Audiophile Edition has 2,500 hours of performances to draw from, and these were real studio musicians, all pro, and some well known who were performing.

So if this ability to create instrumental tracks that conform to your chords and run the entire length of a song in any of several hundred styles is something that would be useful in your studio, maybe consider purchasing a BIAB license. You can also use it to generate loops, but generally it gets used to create entire song length performances with usually 4-5 band members performing in each song.

My work method is usually to export indivdual performance tracks into FL Studio my DAW and work with them in there where it's all nice and cozy, and there's dozens of ways you can tweak the BIAB performances to get even more mileage and individuality out of them, such as running the Melodyne VST in your DAW to re-pitch bits of the BIAB performances, or cross-fading between multiple performances of one instrumental and/or style.

Recently I used Melodyne to force a BIAB fiddle soloist to play exact notes I wanted (echoing the vocal melody) and I got great results.

BIAB still falls way short when it comes to chords that change on an upbeat--it does that in a really un-musical way. Sometimes the only working solution is to put two iterations of the same track in your DAW and cross fade between those two tracks, with one of them nudged an eighth note ahead acting as the syncopated part. There are workarounds involving doubling the song tempo so then there are no upbeat chord changes, but double the tempo might not work if the original tempo was already fast.

If you were to get BIAB you would want the Audiophile edition (shipped on its own drive) because you get 24 bit WAVS as opposed to 128-192kbps MP3s, and I think that would run between 5-7 hundred bucks depending on where or when you would buy it.

I find I use it a lot for rhythm section stuff, and the guitars are all really usable, as are the drum kits (not as good sounding as Drum Drops though) and basses. The pianos need to be mixed well and with something else happening on the downbeats as otherwise you can hear the break between samples most of the time, and any instrument recorded with vibrato becomes problematic with a large tempo disparity between the BIAB performances and the tempo of the piece in question. Otherwise, the "Elastique Engine" which is at the heart of what makes BIAB tick is in it's third iteration and vibrato-less performances can be tempo shifted to over double or half the original tempo without noticing a change in quality. So that makes a majority of the vibrato-less performances work in just about any tempo, though I wouldn't take a performance recorded at, say, 65 BPM and try to make it sound good at anything higher than say 150-160 BPM.. I'd say about 25-35% of the performances have some kind of vibrato, and though it's usually a fast give-away to hear a too fast or slow vibrato, usually the changes in vibrato speed are within acceptable perameters.

Whereas dropping loops into the Acid DAW tends to create Electronica sounding stuff, due to the repetition of the loops, BIAB performances always sound like real musicians playing, as part of the function of the BIAB engine is to make sure that no two identical musical phrases will be repeated anywhere near each other.

You would have a 90% grasp of the program within a day. I guess you would just need to figure if this is for you, given the price tag. If it's something you imagine you'd use in every session, then it would be worth the price, probably.

Cheers,

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/19/18 09:11 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1135263 - 01/19/18 10:16 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Good stuff, thanks Mike, I shall investigate further.

cheers, Geoff

#1135308 - 01/20/18 03:30 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Hello Mike, Z


This is a VERY interesting thread with a wealth of information.

Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart

#1136198 - 02/03/18 03:37 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: niteshift]  
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Geoff,

Michael Z. has done a great job laying this out and I can't add much except to say the audiophile version is worth every dime, if only for the bass and the drums.

There is so much misinformation about Band in a Box in general and so much erroneous, misinformed, out of date, and utterly clueless information in some of the posts about BIAB here, I will try and help.

1.) It is a fallacy to say you cannot make a record quality production with BIAB. That is insane. You can. If you have been in a studio you know they spend a day on the drums for each song. The BIAB drum tracks sound great and are always in the pocket, and if you double them and add the right EQs, you can get really, really close to a live drum sound. Especially if you add fills and such with any number of drum sampler programs. But you have to know how to mix and EQ.

2.) If you go into a studio and record a bass part you will in many cases get a bass part that sounds like the .wav files you will get out of BIAB in so many genres. You use that track that in your DAW just like you would any bass part, recording live or not. Then you have to EQ it of course, but that is part of the mixing process so there is not much difference.

3.) BIAB can get you very close to a live studio sound if you are doing songs "in the pocket." If you want a drifting sound, something that is more helter skelter, with a lot of retards and tempo changes and weird indie noises or garage band sounds it won't work. But if you want to sound just like The Rolling Stones (or almost any other "tight" band you can think of in any genre) and you take the time to learn, you can. If it is a drawback, BIAB often always sounds "too good." It is hard to make it sound sloppy unless you add in your own sloppy parts. And some people dig the "sloppy" sound so those people won't like it. Don't get fooled or bamboozled by uninformed BIAB critics or blowhards right off the bat though if those people ostentatiously say they want their music to sound "real" and then blab on and on about what a travesty BIAB is. First ask those critics to let you listen to their stuff. It if sounds like they just wandered out of a crack house, go ahead and give BIAB a chance.

4.) Most people who use it well use the Real Tracks as a "bed" and add their own guitar playing, singing, piano playing and stuff like that. It is the same thing you would do in a studio. If you look at the EQing VSTs on the market, you can have exactly the same stuff on your computers that the members of U2 have on theirs.

5.) Again, to say you have to go into a "real" studio to get a professional production is absurd. Taylor Swift didn't on her last album. She sang in a guy's apartment.

6.) I have heard some people using BIAB in their home studios that make stuff that sounds much better than what is on the radio.

7.) I have heard people talked into doing $5,000 recordings in a "real studio" that sound like....well, you know what the word is.

8.) For the forum record, Michael Zaneski who uses BIAB in some production work (as one tool OF MANY) has created many productions that are not just "demos" they are in fact productions. If anyone argues that, go search this forum and see if you can find where the disputing poster has ever actually WRITTEN or POSTED a song. Yep. Guess what. You probably already know the answer. Of course it is harder to keep a blowhard off a music forum than it is to keep a troll out of a fairy tale.

I hope this helps and feel free to ask me anything else offline in a PM if I can provide further insights.


David Snyder, Composer, Author
Singer-Songwriter, Producer
Regional Chapter Coordinator, NSAI
www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder
#1136201 - 02/03/18 04:36 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Somebody advised to let it go, so I will


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/03/18 04:59 PM.
#1136530 - 02/08/18 01:21 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Pat Hardy
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Hi Pat,

I address this about seven posts up on this page, in response to you there as well. I think there are more substantial things to worry about than if the use of a BIAB track ended up in a lawsuit involving an end-user (license owner). I mean, it's been several years and it hasn't happened yet.

As I said, any real lawsuit would have to be one end-user vs. another end-user, and that would be ridiculous, since BIAB users understand that Realtracks are created from the same source performances and would never sue over Realtracks. This doesn't mean that other things like composition or melody would be safe, but that has nothing to do with BIAB.

One can certainly copyright songs that have Realtracks in them. What, do you think the Library of Congress has a BIAB filter that sounds an alarm when they are used? No. It would take a recording artist that felt violated to come forward and sue another recording artist, and then they'd sort it out either in court or out of, but as I said, it probably wouldn't ever happen over Realtracks..

Mike


I hear ya, and some very valid points you make, but my situation is a little different than that. I have a few compositions, that I copyrighted as masters ( SR copyrights ) and secured publishing contracts, these publishers are trying to get deals in TV and film licensing them. Thing is, I haven't disclosed that some of the recordings employ the use of realtracks, which are, if you go by the definition used in Title 17, in the public domain ( given that they are available to anyone who purchases a copy of BIAB ) so I'm wondering if their lawyers knew exactly what "realtracks" were, would I be breaching the "no samples" clause in the contract I signed? I've been afraid to ask ( I needed the contract, but maybe I'm selling myself short down the road, thing is, I can't afford to hire live musicians ). I didnt make that clear in my previous post, but this is the reason I posted what I did.

Here is an example of the kinds of stuff I do with BIAB, it's great for latin and vintage jazz.

https://soundcloud.com/patricklockwood/you-stepped-into-my-life-1


Hi Pat,

Show me the part of title 17 that says audio that is available to anyone such as licensed owners of samples or loops is considered in "the public domain" ..? My understanding of sound recording copyright is that there's hardly anything considered public domain by current definition, and BIAB audio performances are twice removed from that definition in that they are owned by PG music and then licensed to BIAB users who then have a right to use "cut-up" versions (as opposed to the original performances that follow an intricate circle of fifths kind of song) of said performances in their works, and publish them, etc.

My guess is (and take this with a grain, please) is that you are fine. It really depends on the Library or Publishers in question, but I imagine the worst that would happen would be they'd stop representing your song. I imagine "their laywers" are worried about any possible lawsuits that might come from (unlicensed) samples being used in a song that they were representing, and there wouldn't be any lawsuits coming at them "from the outside" in regards Realtracks.

Of course, if a song with a Realtrack in it became poplular, the artist that was the original Realtrack performer (that was paid in work-for-hire fashion) might get miffed cuz they won't see any of that money, and then try a "hail mary, full of lawyers" lol--but that's like sour grapes, though perhaps justified, if you look at folks like Paul Simon who paid Los Lobos members and a bunch of New Orleans and African musicians to just come in and "jam some rhythm tracks" for him, and then he pays them outright but then used several of the performances on his Graceland Album. I don't think legally anyone successfully sued Paul Simon in this regard, though bad blood between Simon and Los Lobos remains to this day.

Why not just ask your publisher? Then you'll know for sure. If you are fearing action against you involving money--why would they do that? Where's the financial damage? Worst case--they'd probably thank you for coming forward and say, "sorry, we need to return your songs to you" --iow, if you ask your publisher, that AT LEAST prevents them from selling one of these songs and having it make them money and then they get slapped with a lawsuit..then they might want restitution from you..but I still doubt even that..cuz again..who would be suing--who would be "damaged?"

Mike






I called the trumpet player who recorded the trumpet realtracks, and let him hear my song.

That's precisely what his reaction was, 'shouldn't I be compensated?"


I told him that he was already compensated by PGMusic and that they grant a license to let users use the tracks to their heart's content, it so states on their website, and that if he had any issue, he needs to take it up with PGmusic.

I never heard from him again.

As for Title 17, it has a lot of info, and I forgot where I read it, but it specifically says material
that has been recorded or performed before, will not be protected by a new copyright registration.

Realtracks fit that description, and given that they are available to anyone, I don't see how I can copyright them, it would mean that no one else could use the track I copyrighted, and that doesn't make sense.

As such, they must be in the public domain.

Sure, I can copyright the melody and words, but if I do and SR copyright on the physical recording, the registration only applies to stuff I did, not stuff other people did, unless I got a work-for-hire from those people. What lawyers at recording companies worry is people sampling stuff, and if someone sampled the realtracks backing tracks, how could I stop them? The stuff is available to anyone, heck, they could go right to the realtrack recordings and find the licks there. (not that anyone would want to, this is just I'm imagining how a lawyer would look at it).


That's how I understand it. I can't afford a lawyer right now, and I don't want to bring it up to the publisher, not right now anyway. Realtracks are hard to explain. "They've been recorded before?" they ask. "you mean you are not giving us original work" they ask? so I say
" yeah, but the tracks are ....."

sheesh, it's hard to explain. See what i mean?

The only thing about real tracks I imagine that might be copyrightable is the sequencing, but individual licks, since anyone can access them, anyone can use them, and how can they be copyrightable? Plus, the fact that they were "done before"

#1136531 - 02/08/18 01:30 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: David Snyder]  
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Originally Posted by David Snyder

Geoff,

Michael Z. has done a great job laying this out and I can't add much except to say the audiophile version is worth every dime, if only for the bass and the drums.

There is so much misinformation about Band in a Box in general and so much erroneous, misinformed, out of date, and utterly clueless information in some of the posts about BIAB here, I will try and help.

1.) It is a fallacy to say you cannot make a record quality production with BIAB. That is insane. You can. If you have been in a studio you know they spend a day on the drums for each song. The BIAB drum tracks sound great and are always in the pocket, and if you double them and add the right EQs, you can get really, really close to a live drum sound. Especially if you add fills and such with any number of drum sampler programs. But you have to know how to mix and EQ.

2.) If you go into a studio and record a bass part you will in many cases get a bass part that sounds like the .wav files you will get out of BIAB in so many genres. You use that track that in your DAW just like you would any bass part, recording live or not. Then you have to EQ it of course, but that is part of the mixing process so there is not much difference.

3.) BIAB can get you very close to a live studio sound if you are doing songs "in the pocket." If you want a drifting sound, something that is more helter skelter, with a lot of retards and tempo changes and weird indie noises or garage band sounds it won't work. But if you want to sound just like The Rolling Stones (or almost any other "tight" band you can think of in any genre) and you take the time to learn, you can. If it is a drawback, BIAB often always sounds "too good." It is hard to make it sound sloppy unless you add in your own sloppy parts. And some people dig the "sloppy" sound so those people won't like it. Don't get fooled or bamboozled by uninformed BIAB critics or blowhards right off the bat though if those people ostentatiously say they want their music to sound "real" and then blab on and on about what a travesty BIAB is. First ask those critics to let you listen to their stuff. It if sounds like they just wandered out of a crack house, go ahead and give BIAB a chance.

4.) Most people who use it well use the Real Tracks as a "bed" and add their own guitar playing, singing, piano playing and stuff like that. It is the same thing you would do in a studio. If you look at the EQing VSTs on the market, you can have exactly the same stuff on your computers that the members of U2 have on theirs.

5.) Again, to say you have to go into a "real" studio to get a professional production is absurd. Taylor Swift didn't on her last album. She sang in a guy's apartment.

6.) I have heard some people using BIAB in their home studios that make stuff that sounds much better than what is on the radio.

7.) I have heard people talked into doing $5,000 recordings in a "real studio" that sound like....well, you know what the word is.

8.) For the forum record, Michael Zaneski who uses BIAB in some production work (as one tool OF MANY) has created many productions that are not just "demos" they are in fact productions. If anyone argues that, go search this forum and see if you can find where the disputing poster has ever actually WRITTEN or POSTED a song. Yep. Guess what. You probably already know the answer. Of course it is harder to keep a blowhard off a music forum than it is to keep a troll out of a fairy tale.

I hope this helps and feel free to ask me anything else offline in a PM if I can provide further insights.







I've submitted songs with BIAB tracks to publishers, no one has been able to tell my backing tracks were BIAB, yet.

#1136555 - 02/08/18 09:52 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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You know, no one is saying that you "CAN'T" do passable demos with Band in a Box. You can. Plenty do. Many studios use samples and other effects in their recordings. Much of all that depends on who is DOING the producing. Just like you could hand a really crappy, out of tune, strings six inches off the frets, beat up guitar, to Eric Clapton, and he probably could make it sound like a million bucks.

The difference in demos (I don't even like that word any more, because we really don't do "demos" anymore. We do "RECORDINGS" because over half the things we record end up on web sites, CD's, downloads, and thousands of other applications.) are the PLAYERS. If you have someone really good, know their stuff, have a good command of the PERFORMANCE as well as the TECHNICAL aspect, they can be a great asset.

But believe me, there IS a difference. And what you have to understand is a couple of things. First of all, your songs are NEVER listened to in a vacuum. They are never listening to just ONE song. They are listening to hundreds and thousands of songs in a daily fashion. Anyone that listens to songs also have their favorite writers, favorite singers (there are reasons people that actually get "cuts" often use the same players and singers over and over again. They work.

So is using BIAB a liability? Nope. It is a legitimate way to get your songs recorded and you have to use whatever tools are at your disposal and your budget. And your application.

For myself and most of the people in this town, we use certain players and processes for a reason. As a matter of fact, I am an hour away from going to a pre-production charting session at a studio, for tomorrow's session. We are doing one of my songs and two of a client from Australia. On my song, it is something that took me about 15 years to write, and I want the best production and players I can get because it means that much to me. We use live players because the feel and direction of a live session can't be replicated. The sounds may be similar, but the feel can never be replaced.

If you have something that works for you, by all means do that. But do understand there are other elements to consider. Good luck in whatever you do.

MAB

By the way, the Australian guy is doing the instruments in Nashville was a Band in the Box user. Until he did his first session here. Since then he has recorded all his tracks here because he wants an "authentic approach" to his music. He still uses Band in a Box on his work tapes. Then does the "real recordings" using a studio here, and then doing his vocals with the artists he works with, in Aussie land.

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 02/08/18 09:56 AM.
#1136557 - 02/08/18 10:30 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Good Luck Marc!!

#1136566 - 02/08/18 12:40 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc, that is the point. Nashville just wants to stick their singer into the mix and sell it as is.

They dont want idea demos, or this could be great with...this and that demos.

They want finished product.

No way no how a famous singer like Carrie Underwood or Jason Aldean is going to just sing over your biab tracks. It won't happen

We all agree you can make good demos, so far, I'm the only one who believes that asking a 200 dollar software package to replace tens of thousands of dollars of recording gear is asking too much

I'll change my stance if yiu show me a professional release that uses biab

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/08/18 12:43 PM.
#1136569 - 02/08/18 01:01 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Just about to have a chat with Al David re BIAB. He's a master. Will return soon.

cheers, niteshift

#1136574 - 02/08/18 03:00 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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NS, it really amounts to this:

He or she thinks it can, he or she thinks it can't

Play me a song that uses biab, it won't be anybody in the know

It might be Joe Schmoe win an indie cut, or with a placement in a documentary

Some of my own stuff has been used by people. One song was used in a college visual thesis, by a friend of a friend etc, on bullying

Another was touted for a PowerPoint presentation on unemployment of all things

And just recently an old one re surfaced when a buddy asked to use it in one of his financial podcasts, he just wanted the music as a intro and seque

But I do not believe for one minute that my recordings are good enough for anything beyond that. I was reluctant to use them just in that stuff.

I'm like u sure u want this? Why not use some cheap music online which is royalty free.

I have known for a long time that my weakest link is not being able to blow out recordings like some of my contemporaries.

I have made some good starts, and bought some gear, I even had biab a while back and just did not like how it sounded.

I record right now just to hear how it might sound

It's not even the gear as much as it is having expertise in using it, and having people who are going to play to YOUR music, not a software.

Id rather have 4 guys playing live, and recording live, than tracking everything myself and faking my way through bass, piano, drums, etc

It's not a concept of good enough, it needs to be great to compete

Complete crap will sound better and appeal to people better than a great song played with an out of tune guitar and a bad singer

Don't take this as a, oh u guys can't do it like me, I don't claim to have anything close to radio ready


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/08/18 03:02 PM.
#1136579 - 02/08/18 05:07 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Marc, that is the point. Nashville just wants to stick their singer into the mix and sell it as is.

They dont want idea demos, or this could be great with...this and that demos.

They want finished product.

No way no how a famous singer like Carrie Underwood or Jason Aldean is going to just sing over your biab tracks. It won't happen

We all agree you can make good demos, so far, I'm the only one who believes that asking a 200 dollar software package to replace tens of thousands of dollars of recording gear is asking too much

I'll change my stance if yiu show me a professional release that uses biab



By the time a Carrie Underwood or Jason Aldean got to the stages where they got deals they WERE doing full up sessions. When they were doing work tapes on earlier things, they might have used something like that. Maybe home studios, or "WORKING" toward their actual recordings.

But again, everyone has to do what works FOR THEM and what is on their BUDGET. To respond to the original post of "can people do "demos" on BIAB. They can and do. But once it reaches a higher level, such is in major pitches or radio ready, it's best to up the level.

MAB

#1136618 - 02/09/18 02:16 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Exactly how much is BIAB?


Jody Whitesides
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#1136628 - 02/09/18 03:46 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Basic package starts at like 200 ish, but the more style sets you buy the more they charge. They carefully seperate usable stuff onto different style sets so that all will be bought. Ie. If you want a Rolling Stones type of track one style set, if u want an 80's style more

You can by the whole complete set on cd rom for 1000... I believe? The uncompressed stuff is supposed to be higher quality

But it's not the pricing that keeps me away, one thing it is is VERY afforable

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/09/18 03:48 PM.
#1136642 - 02/09/18 07:08 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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For the price of the Basic Package of BIAB one can purchase Logic Pro app from Apple. Its $199. Comes gigabytes and gigabytes of sounds, a plethora of synthesizers, and a good cross section of "drummers" in varying styles with varying kits with highly customizable grooves. Plus its a full on professional recording platform.

I can understand the desire to take the easy way of pre-made style vibes, but for the cost you can't beat Logic.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136654 - 02/10/18 03:03 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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That sounds like a good idea, but won't I first know how to use a Mac?

#1136664 - 02/10/18 04:40 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
For the price of the Basic Package of BIAB one can purchase Logic Pro app from Apple. Its $199. Comes gigabytes and gigabytes of sounds, a plethora of synthesizers, and a good cross section of "drummers" in varying styles with varying kits with highly customizable grooves. Plus its a full on professional recording platform.

I can understand the desire to take the easy way of pre-made style vibes, but for the cost you can't beat Logic.



Sure, it's 200 bucks AFTER you buy your 4K dollar Macbook Pro... (I know, it works on cheaper machines, but most people do music production on macbooks,,,)


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#1136718 - 02/10/18 03:38 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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All computers have an initial cost. Macs range anywhere from about $900 (for MacBooks) upwards to $4,000+ (for Mac Pros). My MacBook Pro was roughly $2000 for a 15" 2 years ago - still going strong running latest OS & software upgrades. It is my mobile rig, and is my live guitar rig. My studio machine (Mac Pro) was $4,400 - also running smooth latest OS & Software and able to do major productions of over 130+ tracks at an extremely low 32 sample buffer rate. Most people would never need that type of power for recording, especially not for demos.

That being typed, please don't continue the whole PCs are cheaper thing, until you do a part for part comparison. Generally all Macs will cost the same or, at worst, slightly more than a PC with the same parts/specs. Sometimes they're actually cheaper than an equivalently parted/spec'd PC. And most Macs often have a much lower cost of ownership over the life of the machine.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
That sounds like a good idea, but won't I first know how to use a Mac?

I'm guessing you meant to ask, won't I first need to know how to use a Mac. Otherwise you're saying you already know how to use a Mac.

All computers tend to work the same way:

1. Power on.
2. Boot up.
3. Launch software.
4. Work.
5. Get some lunch.
6. Work some more.
7. Save work.
8. Quit software.
9. Shut down computer.
10. Power off.

Pretty sure they all tend to do that. Most modern OS's all work the same way. Right? Though often now, one doesn't need to power computers on and off unless they need to install software.

My point was that for the cost you can go with BIAB barebones application, or you could get professional grade recording software for the same price as a bare bones version of BIAB. Oh, and Logic software upgrades - free.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136737 - 02/10/18 07:10 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
All computers have an initial cost. Macs range anywhere from about $900 (for MacBooks) upwards to $4,000+ (for Mac Pros). My MacBook Pro was roughly $2000 for a 15" 2 years ago - still going strong running latest OS & software upgrades. It is my mobile rig, and is my live guitar rig. My studio machine (Mac Pro) was $4,400 - also running smooth latest OS & Software and able to do major productions of over 130+ tracks at an extremely low 32 sample buffer rate. Most people would never need that type of power for recording, especially not for demos.

That being typed, please don't continue the whole PCs are cheaper thing, until you do a part for part comparison. Generally all Macs will cost the same or, at worst, slightly more than a PC with the same parts/specs. Sometimes they're actually cheaper than an equivalently parted/spec'd PC. And most Macs often have a much lower cost of ownership over the life of the machine.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
That sounds like a good idea, but won't I first know how to use a Mac?

I'm guessing you meant to ask, won't I first need to know how to use a Mac. Otherwise you're saying you already know how to use a Mac.

All computers tend to work the same way:

1. Power on.
2. Boot up.
3. Launch software.
4. Work.
5. Get some lunch.
6. Work some more.
7. Save work.
8. Quit software.
9. Shut down computer.
10. Power off.

Pretty sure they all tend to do that. Most modern OS's all work the same way. Right? Though often now, one doesn't need to power computers on and off unless they need to install software.

My point was that for the cost you can go with BIAB barebones application, or you could get professional grade recording software for the same price as a bare bones version of BIAB. Oh, and Logic software upgrades - free.



Where did I bring PCs into this? You chose to do that, not me. That argument has zero to do with my comments.


Brian Austin Whitney
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Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

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#1136753 - 02/10/18 10:32 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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I'll fix it:

BIAB also costs $200+ after you pay for a $4,000 computer.

smile


Jody Whitesides
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www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136759 - 02/10/18 11:15 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Jody, seems like you're always expecting a wise crack outta me, lol

I was serious, I have never worked on a Mac even in office settings

I have heard in the past that macs are better for recording than pc, I just wasn't sure if a Mac required Any learning curve, maybe by now they are all compatible

I'm just looking to sound as good as I would paying for a really good recording

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/10/18 11:19 PM.
#1136762 - 02/11/18 12:54 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Jody, seems like you're always expecting a wise crack outta me, lol

I was serious, I have never worked on a Mac even in office settings

I have heard in the past that macs are better for recording than pc, I just wasn't sure if a Mac required Any learning curve, maybe by now they are all compatible

I'm just looking to sound as good as I would paying for a really good recording

Nah, I was trying to decipher your text, it didn't quite make complete sense. But I believe I got the gist of it.

A computer is only a tool. Some people are die hard Windows users, some are die hard Mac OS users. Personally, I've been on the Mac side, but only due to it working the way I like it to. Meaning, I want the computer to get out of my way and just be a tool. Yes, Logic only runs on Macs.

I know too many Windows users that have had constant tech work to get their machines to run as smooth. I do know some composer guys that run military grade Windows machines and swear by them.

At this point, I'm guessing that they both run about the same and neither require tons of tech time. But I could be wrong.

To sound as good as paying someone else that knows what they're doing will take time. Time to get good at engineering audio, editing audio, mixing audio, etc.


Jody Whitesides
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www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136778 - 02/11/18 10:11 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Well,
You can probably make a good, or better demo with any Software Program. If it is still Available there is the free Audiocy Program. Some have mentioned the Reaper Program. I have had requests for more songs from my Guitar/Vocal. So the song has to be something an Artist wants or the best demo in the world won't sell it. Geronimo!


Ray E. Strode
#1136799 - 02/11/18 01:00 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Ray I have heard that bs so many times, it's just not true.

90 % of songs are not special in any way, and are not clearly
better than any other song, especially with subjectivity involved

Especially today, without great sound you are nothing. Nobody will listen and nobody will consider you.

A demo can be likened to education.

A bachelors degree is today's high school diploma

A great recording today is what a demo used to be.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/11/18 01:03 PM.
#1136801 - 02/11/18 01:22 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Um, Fdemetrio,
There are demo companies in Nashville who tell you the same thing. You need a "Great Demo" to pitch to Publishing Companies and they are the one who can do it for you. Hey at $!000.00 or more a pop I can do a great demo. You may
have heard the term Polishing a ****. Yes 90% of songs are not special in any way. I know, occasionally I Tune in the Radio or Great American Country on the T.V. Most of those productions, I hesitate to call it music, should have never made it's way into the Studio, let alone out to the public. Hey, it's their money!


Ray E. Strode
#1136804 - 02/11/18 01:29 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Terds are polished into hits all the time, but even songs that are not terds would not sell millions of copies without great productions

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/11/18 01:30 PM.
#1136815 - 02/11/18 03:05 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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In my opinion it is just plain stupid to spend any large amount of money on a slick demo.....It's just a waste of money.....

#1136837 - 02/11/18 08:21 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Well,
You can probably make a good, or better demo with any Software Program. If it is still Available there is the free Audiocy Program. Some have mentioned the Reaper Program.

I agree with this statement. You can make a good demo with Audacity (which I think is Ray's Audiocy) or Reaper. My suggestion of Logic had more to do with getting more bang for your buck over BIAB.

Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
I have had requests for more songs from my Guitar/Vocal. So the song has to be something an Artist wants or the best demo in the world won't sell it. Geronimo!

I don't doubt that, a guitar/vocal or a piano/vocal will always be more ideal than listening to a pre-made type thing like BIAB. And Ray, you're equally as guilty for using BIAB or something like it - at least for the example song you gave on another thread about not letting a star having writing credit.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Especially today, without great sound you are nothing. Nobody will listen and nobody will consider you.

A demo can be likened to education.

A bachelors degree is today's high school diploma

A great recording today is what a demo used to be.

Having a great representation of your song will always help sell it. Computer recording has given everyone the possibility of making a great sounding demo and/or a professional recording.

My own personal feeling on a demo is this: if you're going to shop a song - leave as much out of the arrangement as possible; i.e. do only a guitar/vocal or piano/vocal.

Any time you start adding more than that to a demo, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot. Because you're competing against producers who can run circles around your stock BIAB demos.

All that being typed, I have done some submissions to some artists, when I have been called to. In those instances, I had to record the song as close to a fully produced product at possible. It was required. And its because if the artist wanted the song, they'd just swap out the temp vocal with their own vocal, do a new mix of the track and off the races it goes.

There isn't a hard set rule about what really qualifies as a demo, but stock sounds from BIAB are not likely it.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136862 - 02/12/18 02:17 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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I agree Barry, it's much smarter to invest in many recordings...buying some good stuff, than buying one recording of a song, (when nobody asked for it in the first place)

Yeah Jody, per Ray's point. That is what Im really talking about. A daw is a daw..(of course of course), what matters is what's being recorded by the daw.† It's more about how do you get a great arrangement and sound from the instruments used

That's where your Logic Pro idea might come into play

I feel I got Guitar and Drums covered...with EZdrummer which I really like.

But I dont think there is any reason for demos any more because so few artists record songwriters songs anymore, and a major cut is about as likely as getting struck by lightning twice...on the same night!† A demo is nice I guess for playing it to yourself or friends.

It's now more like recording is to showcase your capabilities as a writer, producer, and/or performer.

Maybe you get a placement here or there, or just doing it for the art of it, or record your own album, which is on my bucket list.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/12/18 02:34 AM.
#1136912 - 02/12/18 10:19 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Um Sorry Jody,
Wouldja run that by me one more time. What, pray tell does a Music Software Program have to do with granting or not granting an Artist part of a song? I don't have or use a Music Software Program to make demos. As I explained to Ronnie Dean, on another Board, gosh I hope I got that right, In a Nutshell I use a Tascam Cassette recorder with my 2 $6.60 dollar dynamic Microphones I bought in the Far East in the early 60's and my Trusty Martin, or other Guitar to record a basic demo. From there I can transfer the tape recording to a disc with my Sony Stand Alone CD Recorder of which I bought a few years ago. No longer sold as far as I can tell. As I understand it, A music Software Program is used to make demos but could be used and some do it to make a Recording to release for sale. Heehaw.


Ray E. Strode
#1136935 - 02/12/18 12:08 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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I use gas powered recording gear. I send my vocals down a flight of piping so that the vocals have more power on a downward trajectory, and gravity can provide a natural compression.

#1136955 - 02/12/18 03:09 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Um Sorry Jody,
Wouldja run that by me one more time. What, pray tell does a Music Software Program have to do with granting or not granting an Artist part of a song? I don't have or use a Music Software Program to make demos. As I explained to Ronnie Dean, on another Board, gosh I hope I got that right, In a Nutshell I use a Tascam Cassette recorder with my 2 $6.60 dollar dynamic Microphones I bought in the Far East in the early 60's and my Trusty Martin, or other Guitar to record a basic demo. From there I can transfer the tape recording to a disc with my Sony Stand Alone CD Recorder of which I bought a few years ago. No longer sold as far as I can tell. As I understand it, A music Software Program is used to make demos but could be used and some do it to make a Recording to release for sale. Heehaw.

Show me where I wrote that using audio recording software has anything to do with granting an Artist part of a song. You need to re-read what I wrote.

I listened to the example song you gave in that other thread. I wrote that it sounds as if it was recorded using BIAB or something like it. You're saying otherwise. End of story.

** Oddly enough you edited the post, took out the direct mention of one of your songs and the website: http://www.geocities.ws/fiverosesmusicgroup/ray/This%20Heart%20Belongs%20To%20Me.mp3 "This Heart Belongs To Me".

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I use gas powered recording gear. I send my vocals down a flight of piping so that the vocals have more power on a downward trajectory, and gravity can provide a natural compression.

smile Ou Naturale


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1136959 - 02/12/18 03:34 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Aw, Well,
That demo was made by a demo service back in 1994. Speer Group or something like that. I don't know what they used. Could have been a Software Program. I didn't put down Music Software Programs that I know of. I didn't edit anything. I have heard that Music Software Programs have been used in Nashville to produce Music to be sold. I don't live in Nashville so I have no first hand information.


Ray E. Strode
#1137234 - 02/15/18 12:21 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Hey All,

Ah well, since I needed a new rig, I've jumped the shark and am currently downloading the 2018 version. Only the MegaPACK at this stage.

It seems to be able to take everything I need , as well as accommodating my old third party VST's , loops, MIDI, and sound files, so we'll see what what happens. Big learning curve, here I come........will report back.

cheers, niteshift

PS - if I don't return, you'll find me at the bottom of the garden eating worms. smile

#1144548 - 09/09/18 07:31 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Vicarn]  
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Completely agree! There is thousands wonderful creative tools out there, their purpose is to make the creative process easier but they don't create a good song! and sometimes the use of all this tools prevents creativity..

#1144549 - 09/09/18 07:43 PM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Niteshift, every so often, usually around new Year, BIAB runs a promotion with some really significant discounts, particularly if you are upgrading to the next year's model. The promotion is structured so that you can upgrade from a more basic version of this year's build to a much bigger one of next year's. At least, that was the case when I upgraded to Everything-PAK for a huge discount. You might want to keep your eyes open and see if they do it again.

#1144581 - 09/11/18 04:38 AM Re: Making Great Demos with BIAB [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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As far as not doing demos anymore , thats one persons view point

Publishers still exist , and thats the only way they can get their new songs

heard ;

Country Writers who know what they are doing , just use nothing more than

Lead Vocal , a Drummer, A Bass player, and a Keyboard player, at the most,

some writers can do all that themselves;

At the start of any song a writer needs to do a rough demo just piano and

vocal or guitar and vocal. without that How can he or she know where

the song needs Re Writes?

Yes the above is ( for most here) ---- (The Bleeding Obvious) to coin a phrase

spoken many a time by John Cleese of Monty Python Fame.


I believe I can hear a hit , with just vocal and guitar.

All this rubbish about your song needs to be Radio Ready is complete Crap

Why? because the average Pro Writer let alone Wannabe Writer has not got

much idea about Production, certainly not to a Record Release Standard

The worst thing about Digital Recording is the reproduction of the Human Voice

Thats why its not a bad idea to mix Analog Vocals with Digital Backing .

Vinyl is coming back thank God , There is still a big market for C D s,

Streaming quite frankly is diabolic , especially in Countries with large

rural areas where they are using ancient phone lines , and there are

many of these






Last edited by Cheyenne; 09/11/18 05:23 AM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
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