Who's Online Now
10 members (couchgrouch, Fdemetrio, VNORTH2, Gary E. Andrews, Perry Neal Crawford, Sunset Poet, Guy E. Trepanier, bennash, Bill Draper, David Gill), 4,251 guests, and 265 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Does Billy Joel belong in top 10?
by Fdemetrio - 03/28/24 11:10 PM
It Is Done
by Sunset Poet - 03/28/24 07:44 PM
Music Industry Summit, Athens Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/28/24 06:14 PM
Can you save me from me
by VNORTH2 - 03/28/24 03:11 PM
As human as yo
by ckiphen - 03/28/24 09:55 AM
Fox News Reports Stunning Archeological Discovery.
by couchgrouch - 03/27/24 08:02 PM
Wasting My Time
by David Gill - 03/27/24 07:42 AM
Song available
by JAPOV - 03/26/24 03:38 PM
YELLIN AT CLOUDS
by David Gill - 03/26/24 03:20 PM
"Reliving" the great Lou Rawls!
by Brian Austin Whitney - 03/26/24 01:49 PM
::: The Best In My Life :::
by Bill Draper - 03/26/24 01:32 PM
The show must go on
by ckiphen - 03/26/24 09:06 AM
NYC Motel 1972
by rpirone - 03/26/24 12:43 AM
usic Industry Summitt
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 11:32 PM
The Rant Arena
by JAPOV - 03/25/24 07:39 PM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Lancaster Festival, Lancaster, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 10:51 AM
Wasting my time
by Rob B. - 03/25/24 03:45 AM
Tom Waits.. What's he building
by Fdemetrio - 03/25/24 12:09 AM
Rick Beato, bad lyrics
by Fdemetrio - 03/24/24 11:23 PM
Inspirational Videos Post Them Here
by Sunset Poet - 03/24/24 11:27 AM
Used to take a Genius to Mix
by Fdemetrio - 03/23/24 11:00 AM
"Broken Places"
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/22/24 07:45 PM
All You Are Is A Lie
by Sunset Poet - 03/22/24 06:55 PM
Pour Choices
by Gavin Sinclair - 03/22/24 05:29 PM
Billy's 30 year overdue song.
by Fdemetrio - 03/22/24 01:30 PM
Make my dreams come true
by ckiphen - 03/22/24 10:51 AM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,857
Travis david 12,264
Kevin Emmrich 10,941
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 9,003
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,160
Colin Ward 7,911
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,916
Mark Kaufman 6,589
ben willis 6,114
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Fdemetrio 4,990
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,670
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,271
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,171
MFB III 4,143
Sunset Poet 4,126
nightengale 4,096
E Swartz 3,985
JAPOV 3,973
beechnut79 3,878
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,845
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Nigel Quin 2,891
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Wendy D 2,235
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
maccharles 2,134
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
DukeWill 2,002
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,481
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Deej56 1,385
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
lane1777 1,280
Gerry 1,280
DakLander 1,265
IronKnee 1,262
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
VNORTH2 1,212
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,162
ckiphen 1,120
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
9ne 1,035
David Gill 1,032
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
bennash 763
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 749
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
Irwin 720
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Pat Hardy 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
R&M 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 590
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Alek 386
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
ddreuter 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Rob B. 364
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 86
VNORTH2 45
bennash 38
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
I believe somebody with writing skills could be able to be taught to write lyrics.
BUT just anybody cannot put the words to a really catchy melody.....and have the right math and soul. In my opinion that just can't be done.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Of course you can. I do it all the time. You can't teach them to be natural or a GREAT songwriter, but you can show them fundamentals, structure, how to approach ideas AND how to find and build relationships with co-writers. I have hundreds of examples of people that couldn't do ANYTHING that went on to make connections AND contributions to tons of songs. I have known dozens of people who have been parts of huge hit songs that might not have written all the words or music, but contributions they made become intregal parts of songs.

It is energy in the room and there are tons of examples of people, who might not have started out as writers developed over a period of time. And EVERYONE learns from other people. So if they "sit down to learn" or just absorb by doing it and osmosis, there are multiple examples of it happening.

It is an acquired skill, and nothing ensures they are going to become professionals or even be able to do everything in a song. But there are very few that CAN do everything.

We start writing songs at 4 and 5 years old when we start rhyming. Anyone can do that. Writing something that people are going to actually BUY with their money or their attention is something else altogether.

And the other side is true. I've seen TONS AND TONS AND TONS of people with expensive musical education degrees, all kinds of diplomas on the wall, that could't write their way out of a paper bag. So it is going to vary with each person, some of the innate skills and then the connections they make over a life time of work.

But, yes, it can be taught. And this is ONE thing I know pretty well.

MAB

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
Where does our inborn talent come in to the picture. Maybe I'm talking about me too much here as I write the music, the lyrics and see them. But I have to disagree respectfully. You can teach me how to paint a picture and if I a thousand lessons my paintings would look like they were done by a 4 year old....But I respect your opinion Marc and you probably know a lot more than me. I'm not talking about coming into a room of gifted songwriters and telling them a story they wished could be made into a song and then coming up with the title and one line. Yeah they get credit but they aren't songwriters really....They are just jumping on the back of some pros and going along for a free ride

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 1
D
Top 200 Poster
Offline
Top 200 Poster
D
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 1
Barry,

It’s an interesting topic, and while it seems you are disagreeing with Marc, I think you both are pretty much saying the same thing. And I agree. Anything can be learned, and in rare instances, those who learn a thing can become exceptional at what they do. Perhaps more so in academia than the arts. But I’m not sure anyone can reach the same heights of those who possess that innate “something” that makes them legendary. The list is endless—Mozart, Willie Mays, Michelangelo, Baryshnikov, Stephen Hawking, DaVinci . . . and on and on.

Can you learn to become a great baseball player? Maybe, if you have the talent and determination. But that may only make you Joel Youngblood and not Joe DiMaggio. Can you be taught to paint? Sure, and you may create some amazing works of art, but it won’t definitively make you Van Gogh. Can you learn to be a songwriter? Sure, and maybe you’re fortunate enough to pen a hit here or there. But will you be Brian Wilson, or Neil Diamond, or Carole King, or Bruce Springsteen, or Bob Dylan, or . . . . etc. I’m betting not.

In short, there’s an innate skill that makes the great artists exceptional. But that’s not to say there’s no merit or value in teaching the arts to those who may not possess that same innate skill. And that’s true for two reasons: First, even those who, on the whole, are not exceptional, sometimes produce works of wonder. For example, in music, think one hit wonders. Second, there are those—I believe at least—that come into their talent late, or that through the process of learning tap into a previously unknown natural talent they may have never otherwise discovered.

So while this is an interesting theoretical discussion, in practice I’d ask what does it matter? We do what our hearts and inclinations compel us to do. We write, we paint, we play, we sing . . . And maybe, in truth, we just aren’t or will never be very good at it. But why stop trying to be better and surrender any hope that we may have something great, or maybe only something good or even somewhat interesting, to offer. What’s the alternative?

Just my thoughts for what they may be worth.

All the best,

Deej

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
Well even professional songwriters have varying degrees of talent.

What is a song? a lyric, a melody and a chord progression. Anyone can learn to put a song together..check out this guy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JV2s0UIPOQY

So to paraphrase Marc, the question might be can you learn to be a great songwriter?

I doubt someone can learn to be a Bob Dylan, or a Neil Young or a Billy Joel

But you can learn how to maximize the talent you have

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 359
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 359
Some people are rhythm challenged. - just a few thankfully.
That makes it nearly impossible to teach "proper" cadence for phrasing.
Forget about syncopation with these types. :-)

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
Thought about it a bit more.

Skills you can learn, techniques, rhyming, structure, theory, chord types,
How to avoid being cliche, how to place your titles and your hooks.
You can learn meter, prosody, poetic devises.

You can learn to make a metaphor, but will the metaphor be any good?

What you can't learn is the intangibles.how to write songs that speak to people its a gift, it may not even be a musical gift

I agree with Ronnie, rhythm can be hard complex rhythms especially like jazz

But as Marc said kids are humming tunes all the time. They sit with their dump trucks and hum as they play,mthose are probably original tunes!

I think the main difference between talent and learned skill, is that when talented, it comes easier. People tend to study artists who don't even realize they are displaying skill, it's just natural for them

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by Barry David Butler
Where does our inborn talent come in to the picture. Maybe I'm talking about me too much here as I write the music, the lyrics and see them. But I have to disagree respectfully. You can teach me how to paint a picture and if I a thousand lessons my paintings would look like they were done by a 4 year old....But I respect your opinion Marc and you probably know a lot more than me. I'm not talking about coming into a room of gifted songwriters and telling them a story they wished could be made into a song and then coming up with the title and one line. Yeah they get credit but they aren't songwriters really....They are just jumping on the back of some pros and going along for a free ride



Barry, this is one thing I have probably spent the majority of my life doing. Working and being around writers at all levels of abilities. I have been to too many number one parties from people who couldn't do ANYTHING when they started, ending up with several pivot points in their life that led them to amazing success. Starting out just contributing a thought, and getting a number one song. But it would not have taken place without that contribution; Then later, to see them develop, and become amazing songwriters.

And I've seen the most educated people with multiple music degrees that couldn't write anything you could even understand. There are a lot of variables at work and what makes a songwriter. Yes, you can teach the mechanics of structure, metaphors, melody, and ANYBODY can indeed become a songwriter. Doesn't mean they will become a GOOD songwriter.

But everything is a process of learning. We all do it. Nobody outside of someone like Mozart start out as genuises. Most have one or another interests, and life ends up taking them in a variety of places. Paul McCartney just happened to be at an outdoor church party and met John Lennon. What would have happened if that never took place? Well they might have both developed to great writers, but the meeting made them AMAZING writers. And they learned from each other. Paul knew more guitar chords and rhythms than John did. So John learned, and so did Paul.

That is what songwriting is. Constantly learning. Constantly developing. Most people get to a point and they simply don't learn or even try. Most give up. Most find it harder than they thought.

But I can assure you, it can be taught. Doesn't mean they will become a GREAT songwriter. That is where innate ability comes in. And some people with even innate ability might not have the common sense or foresight to make decisions that will lead them to other steps. In my experience, it is mostly people getting in their own way that are the primary problems with development.

But much of it most definately can be taught.

MAB

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
I agree with most of what you say Marc.
I guess what I meant to say is can anybody be taught talent?
Some can find out later that they had a talent but never knew it.
Some can find out later that they found they do have a talent and use it.
And 99% of people with great talent never make on cent from it.
God gave out talent to many people but never promised they'd ever make one dime.
God gave talent as a gift for us to use as we seem fit.
I had an amazing God Experience right here in this little room in the middle of nowhere one night at 3 am when I cried out to God I NEED A MIRACLE after being so upset about never making any money from any of my and I heard an Audible Voice that said "YOU ALREADY RECEIVED THE MIRACLE"...yikes I almost fell over. It took until the next afternoon to truly understand what He said to me but it was that the Talent was the miracle. I spent a few days thinking about this and the underlying meaning and decided to use my talents to try and write meaningful songs to the world. I wrote one of my best songs about that experience called THE GIFT if anybody wants to check it out on my youtube page.....SO what the heck to I know...lol We are on this planet almost totally blind and we just muddle along the best we can.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
BTW Marc....do you believe that somethings are meant to happen?
I often wondered if Paul and John were destined to meet on that day.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
It's the nature verses nurture argument.

Can you teach your kids to be good people? You can guide them, but some people are bad right from the get go.

I have known some really good people who raised monsters

Kids need development, and maybe you can teach them, mostly by example, and not words. You can start when the kids young, and you can steer them the right way, but not always

Same thing with talent. Without development it's just untapped potential.

There could be some kid out there with Michael Jordan like athletic ability, but never got to play basketball and didn't know. If he discovers this talent at 20 years old, can he be a basketball great? Doubtful

I know you asked Marc, but my answer about destiny and Paul and John Is this. No, millions of musicians or would be musicians have crossed paths and never became anything special. It was a lucky day for them, and the world.

I'd hate to think that the destiny gods simply said,screw everybody else, let's make Paul and John the most important pop musicians ever

Odds are very much in favor of two great talents bumping into each other, with billions of people on earth for many millenia


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/03/18 11:39 AM.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
Maybe The Four Lads landed in a field by Angel Transport and became The Beatles...lol I believe certain thinks on our Planet are just unknown. Does God intervene in Mysterious Ways every so often...? Maybe....I believe the cure for cancer is in somebody's DNA right now but may never get a chance to be heard unless they are a Scientist or Cancer Researcher. But at some time it will happen. In this world of horror right now we need a Little Bit Of The Magical.....just like I Am A Walrus and Magical Mystery Tour.....Just muse a little on that title....ummmm. That's what they were on for a short time and I believe that title had meaning....lol

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
We might cure cancer, but we might get wiped out by an antibiotic resistant super bug, and have a plague all over again.

Or we might solve every problem, but get hit by an asteroid.

I don't believe in a God of intervention. I believe we are at the mercy of our genes, and chit happens. I do however, believe In a spiritual God, somebody who says, "I see the chit that happened to you" and I'll help you get through it, if you ask"

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Man, you guys are getting deep here. I'm a bit more superficial than you guys. Anytime people start talking about "God" or a higher power, I can't help but think that God would have a lot more things to be concerned about than whether someone writes a song. LOL!

I am more a proponent of the "Forks in the road" Or "Pivot Points" theory, that there are just things that come our way that we have to make the best decisions at the time, using the information we have. And I tend to think that there is more luck and happenstance involved than we probably would be comfortable knowing. Life really is a crap shoot a lot of time.

I look back and careers and just think "How did that happen?" I look at my own for instance.
How does a guy growing up with some friends who play music, go through a fairly successful career, meeting people, dealing with things that work and a LOT that doesn't work, writing a lot of BAD songs, ends up with a chance meeting of My father with a next door neighbor, lead me to completely changing everything about what I did, go to a completely different genre, different city, leading to so many different pathways that I end up mentoring and touching lives of people I never meet. And having a business that simply allows me to make things up as I go along.

Very odd. I could never explain any of this to you. I don't really live in the land of "WHAT IF'S" and live in the world of "WHAT IS." And why I generally tend to keep my thoughts and comments focused on what I can speak with experience on. I can make any of these metaphysical pronouncements for you. I'm really just not that deep.

But a lot of interesting senarios.

MAB

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Well,
Meterphorically speaking, don't you just like my spelling. Some think there is Destiny in the Universe and others think there is Chaos. Some think there is Free Will and others don't. Now where was I? Oh, can I write a song or not. H if I know.

I think the best laid plans will never replace dumb luck.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 02/03/18 01:01 PM.

Ray E. Strode
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
I'm both superficial and a bit deep in the weeds as you can probably surmise from my Songwriting. Deep is ok. I think Yogi Berra once said when you come to the fork in the road take it.
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
It doesn't get any deeper than my short story below but I'm going to post it anyway for anybody who is on facebook...
I don't expect anybody to read it but I warn you once you start you won't be able to put it down so allow about fifteen minutes...

https://www.facebook.com/The-E-Mail-That-Changed-The-World-398376000608252/

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
I knew Aaron Rodgers had mentioned something about God and Football.

Couldn't think of it...but thanks to Google

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/201...wilson-god-football-fan-packers-seahawks

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
C
Top 25 Poster
Online Content
Top 25 Poster
C
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
You can't teach someone to be creative. They either are or they aren't. You can teach mechanics but that's not creativity. Nashville, LA, New York, Austin etc are full of mentors and workshops charging people a fortune to teach them songwriting. Does anyone seriously think all that expensive malarky has contributed to better music? It hasn't...in fact the entire worldwide music business is now lucky if it produces ten worthwhile songs a year. Fifty years ago it was producing dozens and dozens of classic albums a year. Does anyone think Timberlake or Pink gave good pperformances last night? Does anyone wish they'd written any of the crap tracks Kendrick Lamar won Grammys for last week?

You can't teach creativity. Elvis Presley never learned to write songs, neither did Brian Jones or Levon Helm. All you
can learn from mentors are creative cliches. That's why it takes five people to write a Nashville McLove song.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 02/05/18 04:54 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
Amen...to that!!

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Does anyone think Timberlake or Pink gave good performanes last night? Does anyone wish they'd written any of the crap tracks Kendrick Lamar won Grammys for last week?

I do think P!nk put on a fantastic performance for someone down with the flu. Timberlake did what he does best, perform. Was his performance ground breaking? No. But it was safe for TV. The reason we're getting safe entertainment on a major TV event is due to vocal puritanical types who get offended if someone sneezes. America has become what it resisted 200+ years ago.

As for Kendrick, yeah I wish I knew him to do some co-writing. Why? Because major Hip Hop has started creating a culture that is about the entire community, its helping them all and they embraced streaming. Plus its not the same stuff that's been done for decades prior. Even some country artists are wising up and doing collaborations with Hip Hop artists. What other genre is as forward thinking and culture related as Hip Hop?

You can give someone the tools to do something, but you can't make them a master of the craft - that comes from pure hard work.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
C
Top 25 Poster
Online Content
Top 25 Poster
C
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
We disagree on Pink and Timb. I saw clips and I wouldn't call what he did a performance at all. I can't remember anything about the songs, which is the topic at hand. As for Lamar and hip-hop culture, that's irrelevant to songwriting and the merit of hip-hop culture and community can be debated elsewhere. Meek Mills' "song" representing The Eagles isn't something I would personally
celebrate. Apparently Mills' idea of culture and community is doing time for criminal behavior.

I will say Lamar can't write, sing or play, which some may feel is forward thinking...I don't. Anymore than I would call a carpenter who can't build forward thinking. I'd call him incompetent. Same with Jay-Z and the rest. I've read Jay's
lyrics extensively and heard his "music". It's awful and doesn't exhibit a shred of creative lyrical or musical talent.

The proliferation of mentors and workshops has done nothing for the quality of music pooped out by the industry. Creativity can't be taught.

Ps country artists doing rap is nothing more than a humiliating money grab.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 02/05/18 03:03 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
I believe it says more about the callowness of the the Music Buyers. The Suits will put out crap that's hollow if the music fans are shallow and hollow. America is in big trouble. Great Songs are ways to show the way and there isn't anything now. Timberlake probably made millions of more hollow fans that don't know any better. IF your friends like something and they are the tribe you belong to and want to be liked then you like it. A lot of young people are afraid to step out of the crowd and be there own person.....It's about Tribes and Cults and Religions and people don't trust themselves to say what they really thinks. We have a Bully running the Country and is Making Bullies OK.....

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
C
Top 25 Poster
Online Content
Top 25 Poster
C
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
I've seen Trump blamed for hurricanes and wildfires but that's the first time I've seen him blamed for bad music. I'm not sure that's sound reasoning.

The 60s were the last great period for popular music and the further we get from that, the worse music gets. A guy who grew up listening to Busta Rhymes yelling nonsense over a sample from the Psycho soundtrack is unlikely to be as strong a writer as a guy who grew up listening to Cole Porter or Robert Johnson. The roots just aren't there and whatever innate talent may exist won't be ignited by some boob rapping over loops and samples.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
I couldnt hear a single word Timberlake sang, and Pink I wasn't expecting anything from anyway.

Timberlake is an entertainer, im not a fan but the musician and creative person in me knows he's very talented.

I dont recall anybody saying creativity could be taught though?

Workshops are based on one thing: How do i try to make money with songwriting, and music? How do I become commercially viable songwriter?

What they actually teach is a business approach to songwriting, which is what I think Marc does.

Couchgrouch, creativity is just a word. Millions of people think Gangum style is great. You can only judge how creative somebody
is by whether or not you like what they did. Its all subjective

Bob Dylan may look at one of your songs and think "what talentless boob wrote this"? does it make it true?

When I read your lyrics Couchgrouch, its apparent to me that you have been doing this for many many years.

If you try to say you were born as polished as you are now, or even as good as you are now, i have to call bullchit on that

You put alot of time and dedication into your writing.

So you learned and got considerably better.

Paul McCartney is creative, but so is freaking Weird Al. Paul Simon is creative but so is Ed Sheeran

There are defintely degrees of creativity

But what is creativity? Somebody comes up with something. Everybody has a little, and even the great Bob Dylan spent alot of time honing his craft, I bet if you read the first lyric he ever wrote, it wasn't brilliance.

Anyway, what a football game huh? In my estimation that was top 3 in super bowls of all time, it bailed the NFL out of some deep problems this season

Didnt expect the Eagles to win straight up, but they did cover! so they won twice.



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/05/18 06:11 PM.
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 513
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 513
In a word, No.

You can, of course, teach technical aspects of anything.

Everyone always says songwriting has gone down the drain, yadda yadda. Quit focusing on the 'famous' artists and the fast food version of music that big industry tries to foist on us. There are plenty of great songs out there; you just have to look around a bit. And there has always been crap out there, too, even back "in the day" - the idea that all the music made in a given era was somehow superior is laughable.

--TC


If it has strings I will find a way to play it!

You can hear my tunes at https://soundcloud.com/tc-gypsy
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
Bruce Springsteen's first song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=I-3piB3bR7A

Did he become one of the biggest stars in music with that writing?

Id say he did alot of improving

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/05/18 06:24 PM.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
C
Top 25 Poster
Online Content
Top 25 Poster
C
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
We disagree on Weird Al and Ed Sheeran. Sheeran's way too busy with copyright infringement problems to be concerned with my opinion, though.

Yeah, I've been writing for decades. I'm completely self taught and have a natural aptitude for creative writing(and not much else). My early lyrics and poems were terrible. But I was absolutely obsessed at a young age and soaked up and read everything I could. I starved so I could buy albums. That's what you need. Not workshops and mentors. Creativity can't be taught. That's what songwriting is.

Ps I think you're confusing creative growth from personal effort with being taught creativity from an outside source. That tells me you don't what creativity is. Springsteen has a natural talent for songwriting which he developed with great
effort. Roger Daltrey has no songwriting talent and never learned to it despite being associated with Pete Townshend for over 50 years. Talent can't be taught.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 02/05/18 06:35 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
We disagree on Weird Al and Ed Sheeran. Sheeran's way too busy with copyright infringement problems to be concerned with my opinion, though.

Yeah, I've been writing for decades. I'm completely self taught and have a natural aptitude for creative writing(and not much else). My early lyrics and poems were terrible. But I was absolutely obsessed at a young age and soaked up and read everything I could. I starved so I could buy albums. That's what you need. Not workshops and mentors. Creativity can't be taught. That's what songwriting is.


Pretty much what I said, we agree. Im not a weird al fan but hes more creative than gabe the tv repair man.

Anything somebody spits out is creative. How its received is alot of times a matter of taste.

I agree you learn from greatness and usually, your work tells the tale of who you been learning from.

Remember, most big band musicians and leaders thought the Beatles had no talent

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/05/18 06:35 PM.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
C
Top 25 Poster
Online Content
Top 25 Poster
C
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
Anything anyone spits out isn't creative and everyone isn't special. And The Beatles had the respect of many musicians and composers, Leonard Bernstein being one. Their early stuff was a little bubblegummy but by Revolver, they were recognized as a major creative force.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
If you go by the definition of creativity, yes indeed, anything somebody spits out is creative. What is good or bad is subjective.

I mean, obviously there is a lot of objectivity too, but where do you get a license to say what greatness and what crap is. Crap has made people very rich, and has made many people happy, at least my version of crap.

I don't like to call creative works crap, it's kind of like calling somebody's kid ugly.

The Beatles were regarded as good for the music they created, they weren't considered great...period. Maybe those guys are great for pop singers...

George Harrison could have never played with the count Basie orchestra.

John Lennon could have never won American Idol.

There songs do have a lot of staying power, and are used as study material for would be students of music, cause it's so damned tasteful.mits hard not to like the Beatles music, same thing with Billy Joel, his songs are so accessible and tasteful.

But we do agree on the 60's




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/05/18 07:38 PM.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
We disagree on Pink and Timb. I saw clips and I wouldn't call what he did a performance at all. I can't remember anything about the songs, which is the topic at hand. As for Lamar and hip-hop culture, that's irrelevant to songwriting and the merit of hip-hop culture and community can be debated elsewhere. Meek Mills' "song" representing The Eagles isn't something I would personally
celebrate. Apparently Mills' idea of culture and community is doing time for criminal behavior.

You certainly live up to your screen name.

Here's a few others that did some jail time for criminal behavior in their idea of culture and community:

Merle Haggard
Peter Yarrow
Phil Spector
Gary Glitter
Chuck Berry
Steve Earle
John Phillips
Ike Turner
Johnny Paycheck


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
C
Top 25 Poster
Online Content
Top 25 Poster
C
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
Jody, your post is irrelevant to the topic. I mentioned Meek Mills only in connection with the Super Bowl and the music featured there just last night.. Mills' hip hop "song" is an atrocious piece of trash. He can't write, sing or
play.

I don't recall a Merle Haggard song being celebrated by a national ball team while he was in prison. Or Chuck Berry. Or Phil Spector. The difference is...Sing Me Back Home is a classic song. So is Johnny B. Goode and so is You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling.

Mills has no talent, just a foul mouth. Talent can't be taught.


Last edited by couchgrouch; 02/05/18 11:47 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
I know a guy from my home town, who is a good singer and musician, not great but good, who went to Nashville a few years ago to learn how to write songs. To this date, I've yet to hear that he ever wrote a song.

You can teach the mechanics of writing but without a talent for writing, most of what they write will be mediocre at best.

I built most of my own house but I don't consider myself a carpenter, I muddled through but made little mistakes that a good natural carpenter would not make.

We are all given talents and gifts by God, but He didn't give us all the same talents. The talents He gave us we are good at and like doing. We still grow in those talents as we practice it.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
That's not a revelation though. Some people are good in school, some get A's, some get B's some get C's some flunk

Some people get the A because they are extremely smart, and never study or open a book. Some people get A's but work their tail off for it. Some people fail
to use their brains and flunk, other try and still flunk.

Its all about innate talent, nobody here said talent could be taught.

All we said was practice and stick to it ness will pay off, especially if you are talented to start with

Use what you got, is what most people survive on. Some talent and lots of hard work can take you places

How talented are The Ramones? In relation to The Beatles? The Ramones are more recognized today than they were when they were active

How do you factor in talent if you like the Sex Pistols more than The Beatles? Some people do, and will say the Beatles suck. Obviously The Sex Pistols had something to make people think that

Talent comes in more forms and in many strengths, its alot like aspirin


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/06/18 11:26 AM.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
I can't read a note, can't play an instrument that great, have a weird voice that some love and some can't listen but can make up stories and catchy choruses....We are all different. As my song says BEING DIFFERENT IS BEAUTIFUL...find your own voice and niche and you will always be ok.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Jody, your post is irrelevant to the topic. I mentioned Meek Mills only in connection with the Super Bowl and the music featured there just last night.. Mills' hip hop "song" is an atrocious piece of trash. He can't write, sing or
play.

I don't recall a Merle Haggard song being celebrated by a national ball team while he was in prison. Or Chuck Berry. Or Phil Spector. The difference is...Sing Me Back Home is a classic song. So is Johnny B. Goode and so is You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling.

Mills has no talent, just a foul mouth. Talent can't be taught.

Hard to recall that because there were no major sports events that utilized music in their / your era like its utilized now.

The relevance comes from your statement of criminality. Which appeared to be a dig at whether doing jail time is a sign of a lack of talent.

Calling anything released in the last couple of years a classic is impossible to do, classic doesn't happen overnight. Its a general consensus long after the initial release. We have no idea if anything done by Meek Mills is going to be classic in 20, 30, 40 years. Its way to early to know.

The rest is your opinion, its not fact. For all I know, you think I'm an atrocious piece of trash that can't write, sing or play. And you're welcome to hold that opinion.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
C
Top 25 Poster
Online Content
Top 25 Poster
C
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,160
Likes: 5
Meek Mills can't write, sing or play and he is a criminal as well as a verbal pornographer. The Super Bowl was two days ago and the Grammys just over a week. The acts and performers demonstrate what I said...music and musicians are in a sorry state. Someone like Meek Mills also serves to raise doubts about hip hop culture being "forward thinking", a claim not made about Merle Haggard in the 1960s. The Haight-Ashbury counterculture were little more than a bunch of drugged out zombies but at least Scott Mackenzie's San Francisco is a great song. So is White Rabbit.

Time is sometimes needed for art to be better appreciated but often not. I knew King of Pain was a great song in 1983. I also knew Run DMC were just talentless bozos yelling over samples. I was right on both accounts. Run DMC never did learn how to write a song. Why?

Talent can't be taught.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
The arbiter of music talent has spoken. Debate over.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 359
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 359
Now boys, play nice.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
Couch, rundmc never learned to write a SONG?

There is no standard to compare it to. When Taylor Swift writes a song, it's not far fetched to make a comparison with Dolly. They are still doing virtually the same thing

But who do you compare rundmc with? Not little Richard, not Marvin Gaye, not, smokey Robinson, not Michael Jackson

It's it's own thing. A branch of r n b.

Sometimes it's just a vibe.

you're not going to get classic songwriting styling from some inner city rap kid

I won't go as far as to call rappers great writers either but are they supposed to be?

Nobody expects the sex pistols or the Ramines to be great songwriters either, but they were great in many people's eyes


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/07/18 01:40 PM.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
It's hard to get a great message and melody and chorus in one song as that is a special skill.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
True Barry, but it's not in any way special or rare.

Just visit Spotify, there are so many people ranging from pretty bad, to pretty amazing on there.

At very least, I'd say it's a safe estimate to say, there are 10 million people in the world today, who can come up with a pretty good melody. And I'm sure it's more than that.

What draws people to certain artists I think is due to sound, style, relating to the artist. Etc. and also having bucks behind you

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/07/18 02:15 PM.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
It's touching the heart and a soul at a deep level.
There aren't a million Singer Songwriters writing all their own songs that can do that.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
You can't touch anyone if nobody hears you

Im sure all million were speaking of here, all have a few people who say they were moved.

People say they'd rather write music that moves people than make moneyi. If your not making money, your not moving anyone, cause nobody knows you exist.

That's the ticket right there, where is the audience?


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/07/18 03:50 PM.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
I'm not sayin anything. I don't know a damn thing and never made one cent from my songs. SO I'm no expert on anything.....What the hell do I know....lol Sometimes it's better to be lucky than be good but having both are also good...

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Online Content
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,990
Likes: 15
Well you know enough to know that when you write a song, Avery limited amount of people are going to hear it

Imagine....the song Imagine was written by some guy in soundclick. Itwould still be sitting there for decades unknown and unheard. It may have a nice soundclick following which means absolutely nothing

It may even get critiqued

It's almost like the old proverb...if a tree falls in a Forrest...

If a song is written and recorded but nobody hears it, does it do anybody A damn good?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/07/18 04:12 PM.
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 359
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 359
And if a tree falls.....

Sorry, I'll see myself out.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
OP Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
It's like clapping your hand with one hand. If nobody hears it does it really exist? lol


Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
chriscastle, yasir252, cathennashira, Samwise, HappySousa
21,470 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums117
Topics125,717
Posts1,160,950
Members21,470
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
warriorgirl (2024)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5