JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Question for Marc Barnette Re: "Nashville"

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Reality Check Question for Marc Barnette Re: Nashville and/or “Getting out Your Credit Card”


Hi Marc,

I saw your answers to another post about “should I move to Nashville” and I thought I would pose another question about the 50 gazillion songwriting seminars being taught and what you think about them.

First, let me say that the JPF forum led me to looking at a lot of your videos on YouTube, which I thought were excellent, and very straightforward and down to earth. I plan to watch all of them. They are great. I highly encourage people to watch your videos just because they are so straightforward and honest. A breath of fresh air I might say.

So here is my very rambling topic which will eventually lead to a question: as an NSAI Regional Coordinator, I am bombarded by emails from people who have had maybe one co-write in the past decade and they are offering seminars on “How to Really Make it in Nashville at the Bluebird”— charging a lot of money. I am expressly forbidden, of course from passing this info along through my channels, but still, people snag my email and I get on mailing lists.

So, it seems like there are hundreds if not thousands of people teaching very expensive seminars and workshops on how to really make it in Nashville, or “let me introduce you to a publisher pitch on my Skype session, because I have a buddy who is a publisher, and please give your credit card here.”

Since you seem to really know what you are talking about, what do you think is the harsh, brutal, honest, ice cold bucket of water on the head reality of what people REALLY need to do if they REALLY, REALLY, REALLY have their hearts set on making it in Nashville? Who should they really listen to? Who should they avoid???

What should they avoid??? How do they know when people are being honest when they harshly criticize their songs, and how do they know these people are just trying to “drive away the competition”? We all know that there are enough “B-sides” in the can to last until Jesus comes back and that what publishers really want is the hit. So if that is goal, what are the best things people can do to figure out if they stand a chance of making a contribution to this “quest for hits” and when do they know it is time to move on to another point of focus, such as independent record production that has nothing to do with “the industry”??

I guess I am asking this because I feel sorry for a lot of people—it seems they are being bombarded with offers to take their credit cards and show them “what you really must do to make it here” when in reality, the people sending those emails have no power to open any doors or do anything for them whatsoever, except say : “You need to write a good lyric, listen to the radio and learn more than a G,C,D.” Oh, duh!!

Rambling post I know (and I am sorry for that) but I think the biggest question a lot of my friends have is “People keep telling me I need to keep driving for my dream and offering to take my credit card, but I think they might be pointing me to the road to nowhere David. What do you think?”

I really have no advice except to say “Keep writing great songs every day—I dunno.”

What do you think Marc?

Other members feel free to chime in. I thought I would just start out with Marc, rambling as this might be.

P.S. I saw in one of your videos you made a remark about Band in a Box. You might want to check out the 2017 or 2018 version. People are making demos with that are really hard to tell from “professional” demos, in my opinion. I listen in on a lot of the pitch to publisher sessions, by the way, and they never pick the full blown demos, 95% of the time they go for the one guitar one vocal demos anyway

Well,
My goodness where do I start? I'm sure Marc will Chime in later but for now I think you are already well versed in "If it sounds too good to be true, it is". My former Music Publisher was/is still a straight shooter. He, and others told stories, I believe Brian has as well, of people mortgaging their houses to make a 2 or three song demo, in Nashville, in hopes of "Making it". There are "Services" most of us call Scams that are legal and do everything they say they will do. If you have the money they will do it for you. Just recently I sent some songs to a "Group" in Nashville that were looking for songs to evaluate. Now I knew they were nothing but a demo service but their Web Site has really Rosie pictures of Recording Artists recording your songs and so forth. So I got back the usual pitch for them to demo my songs to defray the costs of their service for a measly $659.00 each and saying to book a 3 hour session at a studio I could easily pay 5000.00!
Well I already have demos of the songs, my own Guitar/Vocals that are more than good enough to present the songs.

Of course Nashville Music Publishers want a Professional Demo, made in Nashville if they sign a song. Well no problem as long as they are paying or it. Most don't pay for Pro Demos anymore.

P.S. as near as I can tell at present nobody is doing much of anything in the Music Business in Nashville.

Nashville is going to be History very soon.

One funny story I can't help but mention, but I will make it quick. One of these "people" called me and asked if we could pay him to come to Raleigh, NC to teach people "how to play like James Taylor." I asked him to play Fire and Rain for me over the phone and he had it all wrong but I did not tell him so. What I did tell him was:

"Man, James Taylor is from Chapel Hill, NC dude, and Raleigh, NC is officially the Blue Grass Capital now. Plus there are like 25,000 guitar players here male and female who can shred it. So if you come here telling people in Raleigh you are going to teach them how to play like James Taylor I am going to have to pay for security and a bodyguard out of fear for your life, and we can't afford that."

True story. I just thought that was funny.

I'd say anyone worth their salt will tell you this same thing, whether its in Nashville or anywhere else.

Don't ever mortgage your house, max out a credit card or borrow insane amounts of money to create a demo for unproven songs!! EVER. Don't. Do. It.

I recently had a buddy from music school come to me about a song he thought he'd be able to record himself for a movie. Mind you, after graduating from music school he left music and went into screenwriting. I asked him for the ideas of the song and he sent me lyrics and chord changes via listening over the phone. He wanted to go into debt to buy recording equipment and what my recommendation was. I told him in no uncertain terms that 1, his song wasn't going to make into the film without serious rewrites (it was an 11 minute wandering opus that didn't have a focus) and 2, that he would only end up disappointed in his own recording and be in debt.

The end result is that I helped him co-write the song, arrange it, and produce it. Because I wanted him to learn how much effort it really takes. Not to mention that he learned his writing/playing chops were at odds with his reality. At this point, he's passed it along to the film maker. We're still awaiting word, but last I heard they did like it.

There is a reason to go to pros, but any pro willing to take your money without a serious sit-down on the realities of what you're doing, is only doing you a disservice.

Actually Jody, there is probably NEVER a good reason to pay out crazy money for a demo. You need to have somebody like and want your music before you do that, or at least know you exist.

I know a lot of people like putting out their own cd's. But there is no real reason to do it, nobody wants it.

I guess you could argue that the better sounding demo gives you a better chance of impressing somebody, but if everybody has a great sounding demo, then it's even again.

Even if you land a placement In a movie, how much are you gonna make with it? Might not even make back what you paid for the demo, unles it's a big movie

Doesn't sound like good business to me. It's like buying a whole bunch
of ice bags in bulk, paying to keep them refrigerated, and then realizing that nobody wants your ice bags.

Does anybody want my music, should be the first order of business, I don't know how you find that out though

Wow, never realized there were so many "Marc-Alan Barnette's" out there. LOL!!!

First of all, for the seven BILLIONTH TIME, Nashville is NOT GOING ANYWHERE. We are adding about 600 people a week that come here, about half of those for music in one way or another. If you saw our streets, our buildings, our traffic and the bottom lines of some of the publishers, record companies, agencies, attorneys, tours, merchandising, etc. probably the LAST thing you would say is that "Nashville is going away." I've actually heard that nonsense since 1988, and it is as stupid a statement today as it was then and every year since. So I wouldn't be holding my breath. Sorry Nash Bashers, you lose again.

To David's question on all the people charging on "how to make it in Nashville", David, do you know anything about the CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH in the 1800's? Well the first few hundred people who got there did quite well. After that most washed out, or died. But the people who made money were the MERCHANTS who set up shops and stores selling picks, shovels and supplies to the miners. Ever hear of LEVI STRAUSS?

In Nashville, there has always been a segment of "teachers" "advisors" or similar industry people that offered their experiences, to newcomers. Some good, a lot over promised and underdelivered. But you could always find someone to separate you from your money.

Now, what you find are pretty much every "HIT" writer, teaching a workshop. You have online courses, workshops, tours, pretty much anything you can want from very famous people. If you like James Taylor his Brother Livingston teaches a course at Berklee college of music. Now you find EVERYONE in the teaching game. There are now online courses with RON HOWARD teaching FILM DIRECTING, HELEN MIRREN teaching ACTING and STEVE MARTIN teaching comedy classes. These are far from "HAS BEENS."
Same with a lot of the "teachers" and mentors in town. A friend of mine, Jefferey Steel" is one of the most successful songwriters in the history of Nashville and he teaches a class.

So what to do? Well first of all anyone talking about teaching "how to make it" in Nashville. That is nonsense. No one can teach that. "Making it" is a relative term. To some people "making it" is playing the Bluebird. Some having a Nashville recording. For those thinking about "money" that is a really big dip.

Are their people making money? Yep. You bet. There are always people at the top of the pyramid. Taylor Swift, Tim and Faith, Garth, all do fairly well. Garth did about half a billion dollars last year. Oh yeah, for Ray and the boys, I guess he's done too. LOL. (Sorry, I always gotta tweak those guys because they are consistent. CONSISTENTLY WRONG, but consistent.)

The problem has become the "mid level" writers. Getting a cut or two that might bring in a livable wage for a while, is almost non-existent now. Those "Album cuts" no longer exist because nobody makes albums. And most music now for good or bad is FREE and all the streaming, laws, and rule changes are never going to convince people to pay for something they refuse to pay for and can find ways to get for free. People still shoplift too. AS well as steal identity theft, and all that too. There are laws against that but it goes on all the time.

It is now about "ARTIST BRANDING." And the more you are tied to a modern artist, the better shot you have to be in the game. In order to do that you have to be around. And stay around. And show you bring things artists have to have. You can no longer be "just a writer, just an artist, just a promoter." Now you are all of it. You have more trouble with publishers, because there's no money in publishing. So publishers are looking for young artists because they have a shot at a record deal and BRANDING POSSIBLILITES. And you have to be tied into a LOT of them, because most wash out. Safety in numbers.

Songs have very little value so making money as a songwriter is not very likely.
Out of the 12 billion songs a year marketed and released, about 500 worldwide make any significant money.

So there is a lot of dismal stuff. But if you never made a dime, would you quit writing? Most won't although they will change your direction.

So who to trust? Check out what people offer. If it is quick rich stuff, forget it.
If it is "myopic" and just about one thing, songwriting, recording, performing, networking, etc. Be careful. Because this stuff requires a LOT of thought and work.

I have to go right now so digest that for a while, comment and I'll be back. I actually have to go do a show and actually DO THIS STUFF FOR REAL.

But I'll give you something to ponder for a while.
If you go back to 1955 when Nashville became a recording and songwriting town, you find around 25 writers got about 90% of the cuts.
Now, if you do research, you will find that about 25 people get 90% of the cuts.

The more things change.....
MAB

Well Marc, I think it's the lack of income, or even a lack of any hope of income that keeps people on songwriting forums, and not out pursuing it.

It may be old man, practical advice, but stay the hell out of e music business, you'll starve!

Wow.

Awesome!

A lot of useful stuff to share. Thanks!

Well Shucks Marc,
You remind me of that Roy Drusky song THREE HEARTS IN A TANGLE. I probably should re-write that THREE MUSIC DECISIONS IN A TANGLE. I'm trying to make a decision weather to move to Nashville or not, I know I can't do what's right. Um sorry, I see the output from Nashville of what's on GREAT AMERICAN COUNTRY, really really bad. Have you listened to any of that stuff lately? Oh, I have a song for all of those "Artists" A big hit!!! Heck, I'm gonna mortgage my shoes to pay for it!

It's so nice to hear you parroting all those things you used to not be ready to accept Jody! =)

Your last line is key in terms of hiring someone. If I wanted to find out how honest a Pro was I would intentionally present the worst song which I knew was garbage and see how willing he was to take my money without offering a reality check. If they DID, I would then present the song I intended and again listen to what they said to help me decide. If they just said sure, we're ready to record your terrible song, would you like us to hire a full orchestra? I'd walk out. That said, I would get at least 3-4 quotes while listening to the previous work they had done each and pick the median of best sound and cheapest price. I'd then come to this board and post the info for additional feedback and then choose if the pricing was fair to market value and the sound was clearly pro level, but I would get feedback from others including asking for brutal honesty from at least 4-5 artists about your song. All of the above is pretty good protection for you before spending money.

And NEVER spend money you can't afford to toss out the car window or toss into a salvation army bucket because it isn't fair to your family or if you are single, to your future. And NEVER take out a loan or fill up a credit card you can't pay off the same month. If you are serious, thenbe serious about your business and do some extra hours at work or get a part time job or sell some old stuff you no longer need, don't go into debt.

After years of being an amateur songwriter, the hows and whys that my songs have no chance of ever getting "cut" or anything else...are very clear...but I still like to write.

Before reality completely dispelled the illusion that some website or songwriter workshop might be the gateway to something bigger, I paid for a couple. I always learned something, but these days "youtube university" is so incredibly potent, along with Lynda.com and others that I think a person can pick up a great deal of knowledge online for free or for a few bucks of month.
To anyone who wants to learn software...Lynda.com (now LInked-in) is genuinely excellent. And you can play it back if you didn't get it the first time.

That is why I was delighted to see that Marc has some videos up.

I may start a thread here for critiquing them one-at-a-time. No, not really.

" I see the output from Nashville of what's on GREAT AMERICAN COUNTRY, really really bad. Have you listened to any of that stuff lately? Oh, I have a song for all of those "Artists" A big hit!!! Heck, I'm gonna mortgage my shoes to pay for it!"

Ray,

I think one of the reasons you might be confused about some of the things I say in regard to Nashville is that you might think I am talking about the quality of what is on the radio, or particular artists. I'm not. There is PLENTY on ALL RADIO, TELEVISION, MOVIES, VIDEO GAMES, you name it, that I don't care for. I, like most people who are older (I'm nearly 60 years old) see a lot of things and think a lot of it has gone to hell. There are many elements of music coming into country, rap, pop, rock, etc. that I can't stand, and wish there were more of the things I like. But that is not what I am commenting on.

When I speak of Nashville and in particular the country music industry, I speak of the overall health of that industry. And when people talk about "how bad everything is and that it is all dead, and no one is ever going to come out of that...", etc. I have to stand up and say 'Hey, hang on there. That is not exactly true.

You see, I work WITH people just like David here and try to advise them on things to do and things to avoid. And getting a reality check on business, money, activity, is one of the things I have to do. I am an observer of Trends and culture .I pay attention to how markets develop and how we get to where we are and some ideas about where we are going. That is what I do.

You ask "have I heard certain things on the radio?" and I say, "No, because I don't just sit around listening to the radio. I do have an overall understanding of what is on. I know artists, companies, writers, power players and in many cases. the songs and artists you are hearing out there, I have seen over the past few years. I see many many upcoming people in my travels, in the writers nights, on benefits, on festivals, showcases, etc. before the rest of the country sees them. I saw the "Bro-Country" of Florida Georgia Line about two years before the rest of the world, because they were playing around the places I was. Same with Taylor Swift, Maren Morris, Chis Stapelton, and many others. They are around. We all kind of know who they are.

I just heard two songs coming out on the next Kenny Chesney album by a writer who has them, who was on a benefit I went to last week. Pretty good songs. And that is what I have always said. If you only listen to certain segments of the radio, you hear very very little. And I hear a LOT MORE TOTALLY HORRID songs and artists than you can ever imagine. That is much more prevalent. One of the biggest things I use the radio for is to instruct people NOT TO WRITE THOSE TYPES OF SONGS. They are already out there. Don't recycle what is already there. Same with trying to pitch to artists, projects, films, TV, that is out of your reach. Focus on what you CAN DO, not what you CAN'T.

When I talk about the HEALTH of an industry, I talk about a broader context. When any form of music breaks into the culture, it makes impacts on many other things than just that genre. You can see this yourself. Go to a local grocery store and look at the magazine racks. When you go down and see major country artists like Taylor Swift, Miranda Lambert, Faith Hill, etc. on the covers of nearly every major fashion magazine, when you have Blake Shelton, voted "The Sexist man alive" on People, when you see every hit television show, having some Nashville or country artist connection. that means they are doing quite well. They don't make those publications other wise. When you see country stars on weight loss commercials, on advertising campaigns, when their tours are among the top grossing in entertainment, you know that some people are doing quite well.

So that is what I talk about. At the same time, there is a HUGE drop off of money, fame fortune, for the "working class" writers and artists. It is harder to make any money at all from songs. They simply don't earn much because the listening public demands and gets endless amounts of music for FREE. That is not going to change. But we all have to be more inventive and proactive to find ways to do what we do and not go broke. And it's not just music. People demand EVERY THING for FREE. So creators have their work cut out for them.

David, as to what TO DO, or what NOT TO DO, I think you take it all slowly and methodically. If you are interested in certain people or services, TALK TO THE PEOPLE IN THOSE SERVICES. See what they offer. Ask for references. Talk to people that have used them. Decide what it is YOU want to know.
If you are looking for advice on songwriting, you have NSAI. But don't JUST depend on NSAI, ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC TO DO A LOT OF STUFF FOR YOU. They don't, YOU are the only one that can accomplish people.

To me, you have to concentrate on what YOU CAN DO.

YOU are going to have to WRITE or be a PART OF the best amazing songs you can do to get and keep attention.

YOU are going to have to make sure those songs are always presented well, live or recorded and always represent you well everywhere they are heard.

YOU are going to have to make forays into the industry network and meet people, build endless relationships and convince people ahead of you that you are worth time to helpl you're also going to have to develop and build relationships in your own home region as well. Before you conquer Nashville, you better make some impact on your home area.
.
YOU are going to have to educate yourself as to the business, the realities, of life, trends, the culture, and understand the "behind the scenes" issues that are involved in any business. You are going to have to understand social networks, and build your online presence.
YOU HAVE TO LEARN and KNOW YOUR STUFF.

AND IT NEVER STOPS. You never get "One cut, one song, one hit" and say "That's it." You are only as good as your last song, your last performance, your last audience numbers, your last contact. Always have to do more.

And YOU are going to have to WAIT IT OUT. It is a long distance marathon, and the vast majority quit.
So YOU have to NOT do that.

There are people that can help you. With all due humility, I am one of those people and if you watch my videos, read my posts, or contact me personally, I'll always do what I can. If you want to really get a view of Nashville, come do one of my tours. But YOU have to be responsible for YOU.

Can you "make it" in Nashville? Have no idea. I don't even know what "Making it" is going to mean in the future. I don't look at anything like that. I look at it all as a personal quest, and think you take your victories as they come. To me "Making it" is doing this, staying in the game when most people are gone and always moving forward. Keep your goals achievable and constantly review them.

Sorry for the length,but most of this can't be boiled down. A lot to take in.

Good luck. Hope I helped with the question.
MAB

"P.S. I saw in one of your videos you made a remark about Band in a Box. You might want to check out the 2017 or 2018 version. People are making demos with that are really hard to tell from “professional” demos, in my opinion. I listen in on a lot of the pitch to publisher sessions, by the way, and they never pick the full blown demos, 95% of the time they go for the one guitar one vocal demos anyway"


David, I'm sorry, I keep seeing things in your post that I need to respond to. Sometimes these threads get off subject, and I am trying to respond to as much as I can. I already feel bad because they get so long, but there are a lot of things people need to know about these issues in order to be prepared.

Yes, there are plenty of "band in a Box" demos out there, and yes, sometimes in workshops they might pick a guitar vocal. There are reasons for that, but unless you know the person you are dealing with, you don't know what that is.

Sometimes when we do workshops or "publisher listening sessions" we are listening to the song. Everyone is going to have to play the song for someone else, and so you have to look at the extra work a publisher, song plugger, or anyone has to do "beyond the song." If you are a publisher, dealing with record companies, artists, producers, you are going to have to get a full demo at some point in this process. So if you have only so much budget and already have your OWN artists, writers and songs, that HAVE fully recorded, radio ready songs with the top Nashville players playing on them in monster studios, and songs that YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN, which one are you going to promote?
Since publishing really doesn't earn much anymore, you are trying to be on the ground floor of an artist songwriter anyway. So single songs simply don't have the impact they once did.

And now we don't really do "DEMOS." We do "RECORDINGS" because those songs are not being used to pitch the song. They are being used for web sites, YOU TUBE, FACEBOOK, social networks. They are on podcasts and interview shows, that all artists do. In order to get TO the deals, you have to have a lot of activity going FOR the deal. The professional, well produced recordings are part of that.

Band in a Box is never going to replace that. When you have those amazing players put those "extra touches": signature guitar melody lines ,knowing what NOT to play, playing with feels and attitudes that have to help propel the song to the next levels, you are not going to override that with a computer simulation. Some people use those in their songs and I can always spot them a mile away. And usually when they find themselves with a publisher, producer, etc, the first comment usually made is "You really need a better recording of this." And of course in more times than not, followed by the comment "And if you record it in MY STUDIO...."

All of this is a fine line and you have to tread carefully. But there are "behind the scenes" reasons for everything. And that is part of what you have to learn.

Overall, what do you tell people asking you what to do?

There are four things they have to be aware of and factor into everything:

CREATION OF THE SONG.
PRESENTATION OF THE SONG.
NETWORKING
BUSINESS

Those four elements are always primary in any dealings you have. Tell them that.
And to get in touch with me. I have some studio time I can sell them. LOL!

MAB

We don't deserve all your efforts to help Marc. Thanks bunches for it man.

Marc,

All really great stuff. It is exactly what people need to know. I will be sure to pass it along. Thank you. I have gone back and read a lot of your columns and am putting them in a file folder for personal use, and it seems to me that collectively they could make one heck of a book. I have seen some books on this subject but have not been impressed so far. I think if you collected your essays here, you would almost have "The Blueprint for Success"--or "Bible" as they say on how to make it in a really tough industry if you really want work at it. Just a thought.

Also, I am really enjoying your videos.

Oh, one small nit. I am not going to debate this here on the forum with ya at length, because I agree with 99.9 of what you say, but on the "Band In a Box" thing--it has its place for a lot of people on a budget, Marc. IF you know how to play something. For one example, if you are a wicked acoustic player, and a wicked electric player, and a wicked singer, and you use BIAB to bring in some tracks and you play the rest of it "live" in your home studio and you know how to mix, well, people are doing some pretty amazing stuff with it. It would be a disservice to the genius behind the current platform to say otherwise. That's it--but just my opinion. Not going to get into a fight man!! I am behind ya 999.9999% of the way.

Say hi to Bart for me.

Marc's ideas remind me a but if volunteering at the Salvation Army.

If you enjoy helping people, it might be for you. But if you enjoy eating, and having a place to live, and sending your kids to college, you can not run around Nashville making connections and getting indie cuts just to say you have a cut.

I was working at a company last year, they didn't give people raises, or any incentive, except printing their names blasted through email, saying how good a job their doing. The pride of being mentioned did not help them add a roof to their house next summer.

Marc's posts are thorough and well thought out, but I keep seeing the same equal sign....only the elite ever make a dime at this.

Not sure where the incentive is, we can still create music that nobody hears

Well Marc,
I am not Bashing Nashville. they are doing a pretty job all by themselves. It's just a phase they have to go thru to get to "Higher Ground". I "Punished" myself this morning by listening to Country Radio for about 15 minutes or as long as I could stand it. Nothing different from Great American Country on the T.V. The one thing I hear over and over is they can write and release cute songs that no one wants. The thing I see is a lot of those "Artists" still need good songs. Of course they would have to pay the going rate for outside songs, something they don't want to do.

Today I am listening to a CD by Speedy West Entitled STEEL GUITAR. Not familiar with Speedy West? Google him and listen to a song by him and Jimmy Bryant.

whether nashvilles music is what it used to be is irrelavent.

If any of us could make money writing the worst crap song we could write, we'd all do it.

I'm not sure what payoff is though. No money, no majors, and meanwhile spending money on travel and demos?

WOW! A lot of stuff you've stirred up here David. You sure you want to get into this? Okay, here goes. I'll take this in order of your posts:

David: I did write a book in 2002. It was called "FRESHMAN YEAR IN NASHVILLE" and was a step by step handbook of the first couple of years. I sold and gave most of them away in workshops and in my teaching. I had a limited run printed up because at the time, a printer in Alabama was a friend of mine who gave me everything for free. (I'm really DAMN CHEAP!!! LOL! BUT I REALLY USE THE BARTER SYSTEM!) While I was on the road in 2006, I had a burst water pipe which ruined a lot of the books, and other things I had like CD's, promotional material, posters, etc.
Someone found a copy on CRAIG'S LIST, and paid $50 FOR IT!!!! LOL!!! It was a TEN DOLLAR BOOK and someone had put it on Craig's list for five times what it was worth! Made me laugh my butt off.

I have played around with updating it but everything changes so fast, technology, power players, recording techniques, streaming, etc. there is no way to keep it current. So these types of posts ARE now my book. And it is the heart of what I do.

I have one very interesting skill. I can sit with ALMOST anybody, no matter the age, the skill level, the
goals, and give almost EVERY SINGLE ONE some things they don't know and directions they never thought of. I have been sought out by Grammy winners for advice on performing. I have been talked about in record companies and referred by publishers to help out their artists. I do all that fairly often.

But I REFUSE to get sucked into the political and trends of the music business and the culture that I often disagree with. So I do EVERYTHING on a one on one basis.
On this post, I can respond to exactly what you are asking, and then do follow ups if needed.
They are detailed so you can copy and print them out, and making up your own workbook. You'd be surprised how many people sit down with me and have big black binders with all my posts from dozens of web sites. It's pretty funny to hear them quote ME.

On Band in a Box, I agree a lot of people do this. Some sound very decent. I prefer our PLAYERS here, so anything I would do would have the same players that you hear on the radio. WE can have all kinds of fun with that. I once had a client here from Texas who was doing a four song session for his project.
WE got to the guitar solo and I asked him what he wanted. He said "I would really like one of those blazing guitar solos like they did on "FRIENDS IN LOW PLACES."
I leaned into the talk back mic, to the live room where the musicians were and asked the guitar player, "Hey Chris, what was that sound you did on "FRIENDS IN LOW PLACES?"
We were using Chris Luzinger, who plays on all of Garth Brook's records. He had played the solo on Friends in Low Places.
Just funny how those things are. And if you are an artist there is a cool bragging rights to talk about the players on your projects. If you are doing radio in towns you are brand new to, it can open up some avenues of legitimacy right off the bat.

So keep asking what you want, and I'll try to answer. And if you need other things, feel free to contact me privately here, or at MBarne4908@aol.com. Also, on my web site, www.MARCALANBARNETTE.COM
there are videos and "MABBLOGS" where I have covered a lot of material over the years.

MAB

Marc,

Thanks again. I am one of those people making my own binder. Maybe I will have the pleasure of meeting you one day. I have friends I can't mention on a public forum who have known you on the row and they spoke very highly and very warmly of you when I mentioned how much I enjoyed your posts.

You obviously have made a lot of friends and people I am co-writing with who really know their stuff say that you really know yours.

Cheers and thanks for all of the great info.

Maybe we will bump into one another one day.

Fdmento,

In many ways It's the "best of times, it's the worst of times." (Hey, I copywrote that!) As a creator, you have an endless platform to get out creative works. The Internet can put you anywhere, anytime, any how on anything you want to put up. You can write a song, and ten minutes later start getting comments and attention on it. Quite remarkable.

The down side is EVERYONE now is a CREATOR. In music, books, magazines, blogs, online creators, there are about 30-60 million people trying to do this. There are about one BILLION songs a month uploaded to the Internet. While I type this, there will be thousands of songs put up. So being found in all that is a tall order. And getting PAID for it is even taller.
supply and demand.

But there are people who persevere. I know tons that do this and work with quite a few. Right now one of my long term client's daughter, is going to MTSU college on a music scholarship. Now ordinarily I would poo poo all that but she actually PAID for her college by performances she did in her home area of Green Bay Wisconsin. And she goes home fairly regularly to refill her coffers. Part of the reason is that she's pretty good. And she has the benefit of a Mother who has guided her in songwriting, and co-writing. She has written with a lot of Nashville writers and artists, so her material is much better than average. And her fan base responds to that. Will she ever become a "Nashville artist?" I don't really see it, because when you get here the bar is a lot higher. I don't think she'll ever be there but I've been wrong before.
But she is creating her own world.

There are people around the world who do continue to do this. They carve out their own niche, find their own fan base, and have a great social presence. They might never be household names but they find a way.

If you wanted to include me, I am sort of like this. For nearly 30 years I was a live wire, first rock, then country artist. I had a bit of a National presence, different record and publishing deals. But age catches up with everyone, and musical styles change.
Then I morphed into more of a writer, got cuts and had deals. Continued on long after most of the people I moved here with even some who would become very successful, cashed in their chips and quit.
When songs started losing their monetary value, cuts paying nothing, I morphed into the teaching aspect.

I didn't want to. Just came my way and I tried to take advantage of it. I still conduct myself the same way. I talk to people, offer suggestions on their careers, write songs, perform, record. It always changes and always morphs into something else. Life just happens that way..

I started teaching songwriter and performance workshops as people knew me and asked me. Out of 110 chapter workshops with NSAI (and quite a few Just Plain Folks and other organizations,) I went where I was asked to. Morphed into something else.

Then, as people continued to come on their pilgrimages to Nashville, I have developed my "songwriter Tours" where I guide them around the town. I have some unique skills. I know the town, am very informative, can play, write, sing AND entertain, and I know how things work and how they DON'T work.

I just keep going on. THE ENERGIZER MAB.

And there are others who do the same thing. The industry did much the same.

When the value of songs started declining, the main companies, movers and shakers, changed how they approached music.
The publishers and hit writers started developing their own artists.
They moved to self contained.
They stopped listening to outside songs and developed their own.
They became parts of the platforms everyone had to have. If that means buying parts of Spotify, Pandora, Kazaa, you name it, they do that.

Hit writers quit pitching their songs and wrote with artists. They developed the artists and delivered them to the labels to promote and distribute.

And that's where we are.
Like life, there are people at the top and then everybody else.

But there is a chance that you can be a nobody one day, working your own little world, and pick up more and more steam, then become UNDENIABLE and everything just explodes. Till YOU BECOME the next MOVER AND SHAKER.

Think it can't happen?
Study TAYLOR SWIFT. That is EXACTLY what she did. Now she IS the mover and shaker
MAB.

Ray,

A thing you have to keep in mind when you say "Nashville artists still need good songs." You see, everything is relative. They THINK THEY HAVE GOOD SONGS. And while they might not live up to yours or my standards, we are really irrelevant. Today it is all about ARTIST BRANDING. And given songs they have no real attachment to, even if they are better than they might do themselves, they are going to pick their own every time. Ego is a pretty big factor. And if you hear them on the radio, there is MONEY being put into those songs, so a LOT of people are putting their jobs and their careers on the line for them.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.

A funny thing about your posts on todays country, if you had been here in the late 80's and the early 90's you would have heard people saying the SAME thing about people like JOE DIFFIE, RANDY TRAVIS, TRAVIS TRITT, BILLY RAY CYRUS, and of course THE MOST HATED GUY IN COUNTRY MUSIC, GARTH BROOKS!!!! He was just a "rock and roll singer with the big lights and stage shows!"

Now all those people are considered legends and the standard. But they were HATED in their day by the generation they replaced.

Again, some things never change.

MAB

I believe every Country Artist new or old is always looking for that Great Song that they love If you have one the problem is getting it to them..lol Maybe you could send it by a drone to their house....lol Sounds like a Country Song eh?

@ Marc, I think you have to start young though.

I sometimes fantasize how it woulda went down, had I started right out of high school and kept grinding until now, maybe by now I'd have some success, still extremely far from a sure thing, but maybe some bit of pleasantries.

I did start out with that idea, but pressure from siblings and parents and anybody with a kernel of sense leaned me towards other things.

When your dad says "son, music is great, I wish I could sing and play like that, but you got to be sensible, music business is a tough dirty backstabbing business" go and get yourself a nice career,it's very hard to just say ok everybody off I go to screw up my life.

Any parent who has ever said this to their kids, was 100% right.

Long story short , I decided I'd keep writing, do erotic films and drink and smoke. Then the bad stuff....

Barry, what I'm trying to tell you is that the new artists now THINK they have THE GREAT SONGS. And now there is a different definition They don't go for the "Timeless classics we grew up with. The old days had songs that would stay up and last forever and still are today. Now it doesn't operate on that principal. It is about the theme of the moment and everyone knows they are just going to be there a short while. Much more disposable culture, just like everything else. Music is background now.

What this means is the artists are going to write their own songs or they are coming from their inner circles. This is how this has worked for about 20 years.

Hit writer #1 has a very successful run with several hit singles. He/She is THE ONE everyone comes to for songs. When you're hot, you're hot. Along the way, they usually form their own publishing companies, and funnel most of the money into their own coffers. They pair up with the major companies (SONY/WARNER'S) etc. and form subsidiary companies.

During this time as their star rises, they take to producing their own artists. At the same time, they are getting their own songs cut by majors and success breeds success. Some might become staff producers, or partners in a label. In everything they are cutting their own songs on these artists. They also develop new writers, who ALSO GET CUTS, and often get their own record deals, FOR THE PUBLISHING COMPANY THE HIT WRITER HAS FOUNDED.
They partner up with touring and management companies. They do publicity. They become their own small, medium and large businesses. They invest in other recording studios, bus leasing, T-shirt and merchandise companies. They have a LOT OF INCOME STREAMS.

And you are NOT going to get songs through these people. That is why you could have the greatest song in the world and it would make no difference. First of all, "Greatest" is very subjective, and while you might think it is the greatest, others might not, and you are not going to get "your" greatest song" over what THEY consider THEIR "greatest song."

This is exactly the pathway of people like CRAIG WISEMAN and BIG LOUD SHIRT music. Craig was originally a drummer when he moved to town in the 90's. He started getting hits and just hooked into magic. Every aspect I've described to you is what he has done now for nearly 30 years. His most notable over the past 5-7 years? FLORIDA GEORGIA LINE. He found them when they were students at Belmont University, produced them with his songs, and built them into his company. The entire modern "BRO-COUNTRY" was built around them.

So you see, it's NOT just about SONGS. It;s about FINDING ARTISTS, building those artists into marketable product, building all the avenues around them, and building their relationships with the outside world. There are no more "JUST SONGWRITERS." They are songwriters, producers, publishers, agents, managers, marketing people, merchandisers, tour directors, video producers, banking and finance people, and every thing in between.

This is why the music industry is and always has been an INSIDE game. It is about planning now for the things that are going to happen over the next 5-10 years.

It's just business.

MAB

"@ Marc, I think you have to start young though."

This is absolutely the truth. And artists and writers ARE starting earlier. The average age to start this is 14 or 15 years old. It takes around ten years to really get proficient on an instrument. The age that you are really vibrant and effective is about 20-25 years old. If you are an artist, this entire time is spent juggling life, school, all those things WHILE building your abilities and knowledge of the music world.

Once people get older, females tend to get married, pregnant, fall in love (not always that order) or males and females go to college or take other career paths. so it is very much a young person's game. When you are doing all this, traveling, building fan base, sleeping on floors, eating very little, working three or four jobs in addition to their music.

If you want to look at a proper analogy for this, look at athletes. Professional football, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. You start out playing in sandlot sports. Then into pee wee or smaller organize leagues. From there, each rung of the ladder gets harder and more competitive. They have to juggle school and other responsiblities. Some will succeed better than others. Have more talent Have more drive. Some get hurt and quit. Some simply burn out. With each level, more and more thin out.
They get to Junior high and then High school. Most are gone by then. A very very few will go to college. And a very very very very very very very very (you get the idea) will ever even get close to a professional level.

Ten- fifteen years to learn the craft or sport. Incredible luck to even stay in the game.
Three to five years riding the top.
Being replaced by the "New kid on the block or the NEXT BIG THING."
Travel on the "retirement tour" by 30.

There you go.

MAB

Whazzat?
Those Hot Country Artists think they HAVE THE SONGS. OK, I get it. Those people you show around Nashville for a price, what are you telling them? Since I have been listening to Country Music and a lot of Pop as well SINCE THE EARLY 50'S I know when somebody HAS THE SONGS. Most don't have much, I can tell you. And it is on the radio and the Television. Of course on Clear Channel Radio it is mostly calibrated noise. And the descriptions of the current country music scene has had a lot of critics over the years. Like the song MURDER ON MUSIC ROW. Sorry I gotta go re-read Three Chords and the Truth by Lawrence Leamer I think. Write a Hit!

The more I read the more I realize how cushy I have it. 9-5 Monday-Friday. Computer Consulting not songwriting but sustained and reasonably comfortable.

I'm still gonna fire my songs at y'all though. :-)

Back for more huh? Okay, here we go:

Those people you show around Nashville for a price, what are you telling them?

Ray, I tell them most of what I am saying here. THE TRUTH. As a matter of fact, the places I get most people FROM are people who have found me on sites like this. I give free advice here and other places, and if people are serious about what they want to do, they contact me personally. That and word of mouth is where my business comes from. A lot of writers out there. But if they come to me, they have to be serious about what they are trying to do because I don't blow smoke and I don't string them along just to make money.
Most people advance their knowledge of all this between three to five years in one day. .That means they understand elements of writing. performing networking and how the business does and does not work. And if they come to me, they have usually already gone through all the rip offs, sharks and charletons. I do as much damage control, and correcting mistaken opinions and STOP people from wasting money as anything else.

What do I tell them about the radio or current music scene? NOT TO DO WHAT THEIR DOING!
First of all, if you write the same stuff that is already on the radio you are trying to hit a target that has already left the station. What you hear on the radio was written sometimes years ago, recorded last year, and has taken a year to ramp up, producer and release. When you hear a TREND, they last three years, one to ramp up, one where they are EVERYWHERE, and one to start a long slow decline where you still hear them but those songs and artists were already in the pipeline and are dealing with the residual effects. Bring in one of those songs to publishers or the industry, and you will be shown the door quickly.

I get people to learn about the finer points of writing songs. How to build REALITY that impacts other people. To not worry about trends and the star of the moment. To be themselves and find the truth in their writing. To write songs that are more accessible to the general marketplace.

I don't CARE what they are trying to do in NASHVILLE. NOBODY IN NASHVILLE BUYS MUSIC.
I care about what they do in their home areas. In the Midwest, the Southeast, Canada, and every place OUTSIDE of Nashville, because that is where their CUSTOMERS ARE. Nashville is just a business center. The real audience is all over the world, and if you are NOT interesting people OUTSIDE of Nashville, no one IN NASHVILLE IS GOING TO BE INTERESTED IN YOU.

Most everyone who is signed and on the radio, were already making noise, building fan base, and were already KNOWN BEFORE they got their deals.

Earlier I was telling you of FLA GA. LINE, a huge selling country duo over the past four-five years. Those guys were two young Belmont students. Belmont is the main music college here, my daughter graduated from there. While they were in school, they were performing around not only Nashville, but making trips all out of town, traveling the road, and playing shows. Their publisher/producer, Craig Wiseman, had them opening shows for major artists like Tim McGraw, Brad Paisley, and others.This is because Craig had written HIT SONGS FOR THOSE MAJOR ARTISTS. So he could get them on the large shows.
So they already had a fairly dedicated fan base before they got their deal, and that was one of the main reasons they GOT THEIR DEAL.

I did the same thing with Warner Brothers artist FRANKIE BALLARD. We kept him in the Midwest, doing shows with people like Dierks Bentley, Luke Bryan and Kenny Cheseny, as he built his own fan base, long before Nashville signed him. It was the songs he was doing (many that I wrote with him) that got him on radio, and on the radar screen in the first place. And success bred success. One of the things he did BEFORE he got his deal is book a private party concert in California. He was paid $25,000 for that. And that was BEFORE he got his deal. Everyone wants to be around "the next big thing."

Taylor Swift had a quarter million fans before she got her deal. She played all over the country, shopping malls, doing every kind of show imaginable. And she was at the beginning of the social media generation.

That is how it is done.

Ronnie, you talk about your job. You are correct, you have it good. That is why we always say, "DON'T GIVE UP YOUR DAY JOB."

And the thing you have to keep in mind is that EVERYONE developing what they are doing, learning to write, record, perform, social networking, traveling, etc. they are doing it AT THE SAME TIME. So it is like doing TWO OF YOUR JOBS. Because your music is a SECOND BUSINESS. And sometimes the first one has to fund the second one.
Some do it through music but a lot of people have totally unrelated vocations. And that does't end eotjer, because music money is not always sure or always keeps coming in. Almost no one just depends on their music or songwriting income for their living.
I have been in writing sessions with hit writers, Grammy Winners, all kinds of tremendously successful writers, who had to stop the session to go show a house for their mortgage property management company, deliver supplies for their plumbing supply company, or go do an electrical or contracting job for their construction business.

Most artists and writers work two or three of these while they are building up to be able to depend on music income. And that is so sketchy at times, they are chasing their tail most of the time. Most are temporary. So when they are over, THEY ARE OVER. No benefits, retirement, vacations, etc.

So you might be one of those who wishes they could "quit their job and just do music."
Most people in music just wish they had a job.

Imagine what you do on your 9-3. Then you come home, see your family for an hour, and then have to go to a writing appointment, go to a club to play a writers night, spend three or four hours social networking, barely see your kids, husband, friends. You can't go on those family vacations because you have to spend that money on recordings on new songs. You have to pile into a van to travel two hundred miles with three other people to do a gig in another state. You have to go on a press tour for a new upcoming artist you are trying to help promote. You have to be in a session that takes three days.
And you'be got to use your own credit cards to help pay for a lot of that stuff.

Music business starting to seem a little more real?
Well, that is what it is. For every hour you spend writing, recording, performing, you are doing ten on promoting, developing, doing the BEHIND the SCENES stuff.

This is why the attrition rate is so high. Most people who actually are doing this just quit when they find out how much work is involved and often how LITTLE there is to be made.

I once had a guy who came in from Upstate New York to work with me on one of my tours.
He was 68 years old, and had recently sold his insurance business to pursue music full time. He had done well and had his retirement and so he could make these trips.
I have on my "tour information sheet" "If you would like to meet any writer within reason, who would it be?"
Most people want very high things like hit artists that I can't possibly do. But his request was to meet the writer of his favorite song, which was a huge hit for George Strait. I happened to know the writer of that song, so invited him to lunch to meet with my friend and I. This is what my "tour" is. Through the past, present and future of the participant.

We all got together and he was enthralled as my friend told him all about the back storys on writing that song and how it all got to George and on the charts. And the money involved promoting it .Was very eye opening for my friend. But I noticed something interesting. My friend, the hit writer, kept asking my client about the ins and outs of the INSURANCE business. About half the conversation was about that industry. Then I realized what was happening.

My friend the hit songwriter, was interested in GETTING INTO THE INSURANCE BUSINESS. It was almost a REVERSE INTERVIEW! He was trying to see what kind of investment that would be and if he could get into it so when his music career was over, he could have something else to "fall back on."

As a writer, you can go from the "HOTTEST THING ON EARTH" with tons of success, hit songs, etc. and the next day, record companies don't even return your phone calls. What goes up will come back down.

Well folks, hope you have enjoyed this little foray into the realities of the music business. I actually have to go because I HAVE one of those young artists coming over to do a tour with me. She is 18, going to school here, a tremendous writer/artist and we will be working on her songs today.

What will I tell her Ray? The truth. Always the truth. And to that, you add three chords.

MAB

Ray, funny you mention “Murder on Music Row”. That’s one of my favorites but has a really interesting story behind it. It speaks to what I talk about in the “BEHIND THE SCENES or BEYOND THE SONG” aspect I talk about all the time. I may have told this before and if I have, ignore it. I’m doing it for the benefit of Ronnie and David and and otheebnewbies here.

MURDER ON MUSIC ROW, is a really cool song by bemoaning the He state of Country Music in the late 1990s. It was written by two friends of mine, LARRY SCHELL and LARRY CORDLE. Both are country writing legends and from the era of 70s and 80s.

They wrote it when they saw the big stage shows and rock influences of Garth brooks. They felt he was destroying “REAL” country Music with big lights sounds (with drums and Rock and roll guitars, mixed up in your face.”) and rock stage shows.
Sound familiar Ray?

So it was written about Garth and shania Twain.

It got picked up as a musical duet between George strait and Allen Jackson, who were also threatened by the Big stage shows, both those guys are great but ROCK STARS THEY AINT!

It came on strong and became a top ten song. Was nominated. For “Vocal event of the year” and was everywhere. For a few weeks. Then dropped off the radar like a stone.

Who stopped it? THEIR RECORD Companies. First of all, they were criticizing bread and butter for many peole at those labels and in the industry. Not good for anyone.
Then, both singers had new albums coming out, and didn’t want that to be interfered with.

And lastly but most importantly, it INSULTED the fans of that kind of music, who might buy their project. The song dropped off and you don’t even hear either of those singers sing it anymore: hard to find it anywhere. Both those artists have since retired, and the loud rock influences now run the industry. And both of those writers haven’t had cuts since. A high price to pay to make a statement.
Times change and many are left behind.

So see, there is a lot to this.

Lesson over for today.
MAB

Marc,
The Golden Era of Country Music was from 1946, right after the Second World War till 1956 when Elvis came on the scene. Now to be sure, a lot of people were probably tired of the "Crying in your Beer songs and Elvis was the change music needed and he became immensely popular. At the same time country music became "Watered Down" and the later output sounded pretty phony. Because Country Music was losing it's influence, it was never popular in the big cities but still was being recorded and released. When I went in the Navy in September of 1955 Where I was from you could still hear country music from a local station, that played country music from daylight to dusk every day because of all the songs being recorded at the time. Well I became stationed in Atlantic City. Now imagine my shock when they didn't play Country Music on the Radio! It was in the Record Stores but not on the Radio. I started to get an education in Pop Music of which at the time I spurned. Today I have a lot of those songs and like them.

Because Country Music was losing it's influence the CMA started the Country Music Hall of Fame. The Radio Stations said they would play Country Music if they would take out the Fiddle and Steel Guitar. So Chet Atkins complied and made Country Music "Respectable? and worse. So came the criticism, from many directions, hence the song MURDER ON MUSIC ROW. A lot of people complained in hearing the same 20 or so songs on the radio from one end of the country to the other. bigger and better, right? And I witnessed all this as I was listening to the radio from about 1952 to the present. So when I say most of the stuff these guys are trying to sound like they know a good song is really bad It is from a world of experience. The Record Labels, most owned by people that don't know a good country song because they come from New York didn't help any. Most of the time Label Heads select the songs an Artist is required to record. It happened in Pop Music as well.

The story goes that a Label Head had a song they wanted Al Hibbler to record. Al Hibbler recorded UNCHAINED MELODY the first time it was recorded. The song was AFTER THE LIGHTS GO DOWN LOW. The story goes he hated the song but had to record it. Good songs are hard to write that may become hits. And so it goes.

I guess everybody has been reading this thread very carefully.

I think Marc has just given the "Keys to the Kingdom" in these very few paragraphs above.

Write great, appealing, relevant and universally resonating songs that everybody in your tri-state area will BUY from you in whatever form (CDS, online, etc) are you are in business, so to speak.

All roads lead back to that instrument and that song--and if you write a great one, people will buy it. I have friends whose fans get angry when they don't have a recent CD (or some form of a release they can buy or download) to sell that will include a new favorite song they just played at a show. So people are still buying the stuff they like. No question about it.

This equation Marc has laid out makes it pretty simple. Write great songs. Build a local following. HAVE FUN.

Not a bad place to start. And it is of all things--logical..

Lot of good stuff on this thread from everyone Glad I asked my rambling question.

i agree with you Marc, but with a few caveats.

you seem to swing from songwriter , to performing songwriter. Performing songwriters always have an edge because they can go out and do their own songs, maybe make a few bucks for a gig.

A pur songwriter can't go out and get a fan base, they are trying to land a song with somebody who has a fan base.

There are in rare exception , some people who have made it with their music who also carry jobs, but not many, u kind of need to do it 100% or not at all, cause even 100% is not enough.

There is an artist by the name of Joe Grusxhecky. He is a special education teacher by day, and by night heads what has been considered the greatest bar band in America, and has released many acclaimed
albums. So it can be done.

But most people In This thread are talking about writing songs, not performing them.

Here is Joe's Story for those interested.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkvcE9fZM7Q

Actually F.... (I wish people would sign their posts so I would know who I am talking to.

I am actually covering ALL of that. I am talking over and over again about FINDING YOUR OWN ARTISTS, if you are not a performing songwriter. I have given some background on how we've gotten where we are, what the inside cut is about (the artists writing their own songs or coming from their inner circles) how artists are developed by hit writers and insiders, and why those artists are off limits to pure songwriters and people "pitching songs."

The days of the "song pitch" are all but gone. The reason is that the money is all but gone. So you have to find other ways to keep your music relevant. For that, you are going to have to find and recruit ARTISTS, the same way that everfyone else has to do. You have to find the STARS of TOMORROW today.

Does the date, Feb. 9, 1964 mean anything to you?
If you are a "PURE" songwriter, it should, because that is the date four young guys from Liverpool, England, did a television show called THE ED SULLIVAN SHOW. The thing that was different about this date was that the BEATLES, (the group in question) WROTE THEIR OWN SONGS. Before that date, there were "SONGWRITERS and SINGERS.
After that date in rock and pop, artists were signed for the ability to WRITE as well as SING. The era of the "pure songwriter" in pop and rock music was over. The days of the Gershwins, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, was done. In it's place, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Stones, Who and you name it, took over the scene.
In the 70's the singer/songwriter, James Taylor, Carol King, Neil Diamond, Elton John, and everybody else drove the final nail in the coffin.

In Country music, the separation continued until the late 90's into the 2000's. As money began to decline in songs themselves, it turned to ARTIST BRANDING. Now all hit writers are attaching themselves to artists, and becoming the central pathway for those artists.

The "pure" songwriter has to do the same and find artists BEFORE they are stars and get in on the ground floors.

So yes, I am covering that as well. But you see, I RESPOND to each post here. If you want to ask more questions about a "songwriter's perspective" I am happy to respond to that. But I have actually covered it. I include a lot of this in all these posts that I do. That is why sometimes you have to re-read them a few times because I'm covering a lot of parts people are asking me.

MAB

"There are in rare exception , some people who have made it with their music who also carry jobs, but not many, u kind of need to do it 100% or not at all, cause even 100% is not enough."

You might go back and re-read what I said in my earlier post on this. Actually even some of the most successful writers, producers, label people, publishers, also have OTHER sources of income outside of music. Most do other businesses, often that have nothing to do with music.

I once had a friend of mine come to my house to work on a toilet I was having problems with. His main job was his PLUMBING CONTRACTING BUSINESS. At the same time he was working on my toilet, he had his third number one song on the radio. The more you are around this, the more you find this repeating over and over. Music doesn't pay what everyone thinks it does and you often have to subsidize your music career with other sources of income.

So I've covered some of that too.

MAB

Ray, see this is an interesting post. It is part of a contention that I always have with you.
All of this is your OPINION. It is your OPINION, and EXPERIENCE that "The Golden era of country music ended in 1956." Really? Well this is just off the top of my head, but here are a few people you are claiming are imposters in country music:

From the 60's
JOHNNY CASH,
BUCK OWENS
WAYLON JENNINGS
WILLIE NELSON
KRIS KRISTOFFERSON
TAMMY WYNETTE
LORETTA LYNNE
RED SOVINE

From the 70's
MICKY GILLEY
CHARLIE RICH
JOHN DENVER
JOHNNY PAYCHECK
WILLIE NELSON (CAME INTO HIS OWN AS AN ARTIST AS OPPOSED TO A WRITER)
DOLLY PARTON
THE OAK RIDGE BOYS
GEORGE JONES


From the 80's
ALABAMA
GEORGE STRAIT
HANK WILLIAMS JR.
KENNY ROGERS
TANYA TUCKER
JOHN ANDERSON


FROM THE 90'S
GARTH BROOKS
ALLEN JACKSON
TRAVIS TRITT
SHANIA TWAIN

I have a tour going on so can't do this anymore, but I think you get the idea. Each preceeding generation that is replaced HATES the music that replaces it and doesnt consider them LEGITIMATE.
And the people that came BEFORE are not considered legitimate in the eyes of those that replace them.

It is the nature of things.

MAB

Well as a side note, the 60's is the best decade for music in general, without a doubt.

You had jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Elvis, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Ray Charles, Motown, The British Invasion, all at the top of their game. Never happen again

@ Marc, But after the Beatles had come and gone, there were still songwriters trying to get cuts. Country non performing songwriters lasted longer than the other genres, even these forums had alot of Nashville hopefuls on them, say even as recently as ten years ago.

Nashville was the last bastian of hope for songwriters trying to get an artist to record one of their songs. They don't hang around any more because it doesn't happen any more...not to say it was ever easy, it was always impossible, but at least there was a market.

There isn't much market for a songwriter, when nearly every artist writes their own songs, Or produces them into songs.

And if I'm an up and coming artist, why am I going to record somebody else's song when I can write my own, you're gonna have to have unbelievable songs if you are going to convince somebody not to use their own.

All things being equal, there isn't much difference between mediocre songs, everybody's got them...

I think performing your own is the only way to do anything these days. I can do my own stuff, I just don't see a reason, I can play my stuff for anyone who was going to buy it anyway. All 10 of them!

F (?) can't get the name, sorry,

I think I've covered this as well. There always have been and will be non-artist songwriters who get cuts. In rock and pop, Dianne Warren would be one. She is the one that gets all these huge movie themes, like "DON'T WANT TO MISS A THING" with Aerosmith. It still happens but like everything, there are reasons for it. Dianne has had about a 20 year history of getting those kinds of cuts, and when Hollywood wants a "GIANT TITLE" theme for their movies they give Dianne a call. She is kind of the "John Williams" of pop and rock songwriting. And she is paid around $100,000 per song to write them. That is what she was paid by AMERICAN IDOL to write with their contest winners.
But there are LOTTERY WINNERS TOO. You can't depend on the families rent on that.

In Nashville, some of the same thing happen. There are people who are not the artists that get cuts. But I think I've described that. Being an "outside writer" (one who is not the artist) can happen if your are Craig Wiseman, who is your boss. He was the creator and producer on FLA. GA. LINE, where they cut his songs and he developed them in their early days. So in effect, he signed their checks

There are others, but again, you have to look "beyond the song." It is a complete difference in someone who is just sending in a song through a random pitch or a contest, and a writer who had the artist LIVE ON THEIR COUCH FOR A YEAR WHEN THEY FIRST MOVED TO TOWN, WENT THROUGH A DIVORCE, ETC. In Nashville, we all know each other. So songs work their way through the "pipeline" at a much different pace. Sometimes the songs you hear on the radio, are some that the artists have been performing for years and just not cut. Brad Paisley recently recorded some songs he had been doing 15 years before. There is an ATTACHMENT to those songs. They might represent a time they were going through years ago, and have always felt that "If I ever get a chance, I'm going to record THAT song."

And of course, like we are saying, the economics of the situation have come down that most artists are writing their own songs. It is THEIR emotions, THEIR experiences.Yesterday I Was writing with one of the brightest new artists I have worked with, Jessi Pugh. She is 18, drop dead gorgeous, and a TREMENDOUS talent. I am working on helping her develop her songwriting and performing chops. We wrote our third song together, and like all of them, they are about HER. And right now, her best known song is called "UNDERESTIMATED." (Actually the title part of a phrase, "I'M SO OVER BEING UNDERESTIMATED.) It is a really cool song about woman empowerment, rising above struggles, and basically going past all the times people have told her she CAN'T DO SOMETHING. The final line of the bridge is:
"THE ONE THING I'M NOT GOOD AT IS GIVING UP."

Now, as she goes through her career, other people may try to pitch her THEIR songs about female empowerment, about rising through the struggles. But those are not HER song about female empowerment and rising through the struggles. So this is what we all are dealing with, and why you really have to RECRUIT your own ARTISTS.

I find it really interesting how you say this:

"Well as a side note, the 60's is the best decade for music in general, without a doubt.

You had jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Elvis, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Ray Charles, Motown, The British Invasion, all at the top of their game. Never happen again"

This is EXACTLY what I am trying to say to Ray. HIS OPINION is that all music ended in the 50's. You have come up with the "best decade was the 60's." EVERYONE has their own opinions based upon their experiences. And believe it or not, there are MILLIONS of people that think that NOW is the best decade. That is what songwriters have to understand. It's all relative. And why I don't TALK DOWN any decade of music. They are all interesting and have their high points. I don't think there IS a BEST decade. Just times that appeal to us all more.

Good comments.
MAB

PS. If you want to see my Facebook interview with JESSI PUGH, here it is:
https://www.facebook.com/marcalan.barnette

If you don't sing try and be really good at playing the Bass and then find a local guy or gal who have a great voice, find some other players and form a band. That way you have your songs or some the singer or band writes together and start to play out. There is more than one way to get to the same place..

No matter how old you are if you cling to your pet decade you are doing yourself as a relevant songwriter a grand disservice.That said, what influenced someone is likely so poke out here and there.

Someone here said one of my songs sounded like Rush and Boston influence. What, who are you? How did you know? - crap it's showing!

Don't bury your musical head in what was but create what will be! - That's tricky, but I have always heard, don't write like someone else, write like you. And whatever you've got, put it out there.

We wanna hear it.

Aw, Humm, Well,
Well David I hope we have if in a roundabout way have answered your questions, of which you probably knew the answers to anyway.

Holy Traditional Country Music Marc! Now I know you used my statement about the Golden Era of Country music and think all that music needs to be given a swift and proper burial but Alas! The Music Catalogs keep putting all that music up and available for purchase! Gosh I bet you can find most of it in the Ernest Tubb Record Shops right there in Nashville! Well Gee if it hadn't been for all those Artists in that time period would there have been all the artists that came later?

Now Marc, i don't want to burst your Bubble but I consider Webb Pierce the Artist of the Century. Why? Hank Williams opened the door to modern country but after he passed away it was Webb Pierce that held that door wide open by being played on the radio over and over. I know. I was there. For one year Webb held the top spot on radio and put 97 songs on the charts. As a conquense a lot of other country artists were also being played and gained a lot of publicity. Geronimo!

Marc, the name is Frank, as in can I be? And Demetrio, coming from the Greek, lover of earth... Look it up!

Yeah Ray marches to his own drum from my own observations. 50s I think was a period of invention, music started becoming more entertainment, and it started a lot of the genres in progress. But the 60's sealed it, and raised the bar. It's amazing how every genre was great in the 60's, I'm guessing if punk rock had been around in the 60's it would have been great too. Even the garage rock was great.

I don't dislike any genre of music, I find some more exciting than others. We all do. There is plenty of great music and great artists around today as well.

I'm sorry if you take my ideas as a challenge, even they are a challenge it's not meant to be mean spirited, just to inspire thought

Don't forget Broadway Music and Musicals. Some of the best sons come from Broadway.

Marc,

We need to do a YouTube show together with people sending in their songs for feedback etc. and Q&A on some live streams like we used to do at conferences and other such live events. It would be fun a nostalgic!

I really think we need to get people back out face to face in the same room again like we did for over 20 years touring around North America and Europe. Sure, everything changes, but the fundamentals stay the same and chatting with large groups is the best way to stay current because real people in real places are usually ahead of the curve versus people who just post online and don't exist in the real world. We should talk about some opportunities. Have you done much live casting on YouTube?

Brian

Good Idea...

Hellz yeah, I'd watch that, y'all could probably grow it and turn it into a revenue stream also.

Hi guys, sorry I'm just getting back. Had a studio session to write music for one of the JPF'rs. Doing a session for him on Monday. Sometimes myself and my studio partner, Jay Verne, will write music for someone's songs. So that's where I was. Never stops around here.

Frank, thanks for that. I always try to sign my posts and like it when others do because when I check these, I will try to respond to the name on the post above. If there are several at once, I might get the names reversed, but oh well, I'm old.
I don't consider your questions "challenging": at all They are very pointed, intelligent and actually help me make my points. When people ask me something directly or give me their point of view. I try to address that but sometimes in larger posts they may all get grouped in together. And on this site. I've been here for quite a few years and we have had these similar discussions many times. So I often might miss something or get a couple of parts I leave out. Will always come back around to it if needed.

Ray and I have had these discussions over music for many years. I very much respect where he comes from and actually understand the era. I am a musical historian and aside from having played it for 40 years, throughout my history I have conversed with many writers, players, artists, producers, label people, publishers, from many decades past. I moved to Nashville in 1988, but had the pleasure of meeting people from 50's country, some of Hank Williams Sr. Driftin cowboy's band. Scotty Moore, and DJ Fontana from Elvis's first band. People from the glory days of Motown ,Muscle Shoals, LA and New York. Members of country music royalty like George Jones, and Lynne Anderson, and of course tons of writers.
I've been lucky enough to be taken in confidence and performed on tons of shows with these legends.

I've lived a pretty cool life and I could croak tomorrow and I've achieved pretty much every dream I've had. Most of what I talk about here and other places are what I've gotten directly from the people who made that history. Always very cool and interesting.

Brian, I don't do a lot of live streaming, but I might do it in the future. I'm starting my own YOU TUBE channel, as soon as I get enough contact to get it all going. I am always interested in anything I can do to help you because I believe in what you have done very much. Anything I can do to help, all you have to do is ask.

Ronnie one of my former girlfriends was the bass player for BOSTON for about 8 years. Her name is Kimberly Dahme,and if you go to any of their videos in the past few years, she is the hot blonde bassist on stage. Got the only non-Tom Scholtz cut ever on the band.

There is a way to develop your current music, and combine it with older styles. I actually have one of my videos on Facebook that covers just that subject. I will do others coming up. But it is a fun thing to do. Funny you mentioned RUSH. I have a friend. Paul Jefferson, who had a band in the early 2000's called "HILLJACK." They had a couple of record deals and did concert openings for Keith Urban. The members of the band were from another band called "LITTLE TEXAS." They broke up in 2010, but had a "reunion show two weeks ago. I was talking to the guitar player who said "The only way I can describe this music is "COUNTRY RUSH." And when they played that is what it was. Intricate musical passages with country lyrics. Very cool.
So there are ways to do this stuff. Just takes the right approach.

Thanks for the comments.

MAB