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#1133691 - 12/14/17 02:28 PM No more Net Neutrality....  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
MidniteBob Offline
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MidniteBob  Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
Don't blame me....

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1133692 - 12/14/17 02:42 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,068
John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
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PA
Well, no one wants to be stuck in neutral Bob. That's not going anywhere.

John smile

#1133694 - 12/14/17 03:01 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Jan 2008
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MidniteBob Offline
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MidniteBob  Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
Hey JLS. I'd gladly be stuck in neutral when the bills come due.

Midnite:-)


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1133696 - 12/14/17 03:26 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
Barry David Butler (D) Offline
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Barry David Butler (D)  Offline
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Sebring, Florida USA
I don't understand what this is?

#1133697 - 12/14/17 04:10 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: Barry David Butler (D)]  
Joined: Dec 2008
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Originally Posted by Barry David Butler
I don't understand what this is?


Maybe because you're stuck in neutral Barry... or maybe it just doesn't mean anything. Words to ponder...

John smile

#1133700 - 12/14/17 04:42 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Jan 2008
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MidniteBob Offline
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MidniteBob  Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
Hey, all. Let me try to be succinct.

Our United States president obliterated "Net Neutrality" today...

Just so ya's know....That means $$$$$$$$$ in the pockets of the corporations, and $$ out of us commoners' pockets whenever we want to go on-line...

I'm trying really, really hard here not to be obtuse!

Midnite



Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1133701 - 12/14/17 04:44 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,255
Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,255
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
I understand everything about it except the Greek portion. It's all Greek to me!


Ray E. Strode
#1133702 - 12/14/17 04:45 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Dec 2008
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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From WIKI:

Net neutrality is the principle that Internet service providers must treat all data on the Internet the same, and not discriminate or charge differently by user, content, website, platform, application, type of attached equipment, or method of communication.

John smile

#1133704 - 12/14/17 04:55 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
MidniteBob Offline
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MidniteBob  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
From WIKI:

Net neutrality is the principle that Internet service providers must treat all data on the Internet the same, and not discriminate or charge differently by user, content, website, platform, application, type of attached equipment, or method of communication.

John smile


Well done, sir!

Sadly, those days are soon to be gone:-(

Midnite(don't blame me)Bob


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1133705 - 12/14/17 05:16 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Jody Whitesides Offline
Jody Whitesides  Offline

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Park City, UT, USA


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1133707 - 12/14/17 07:18 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
MidniteBob Offline
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MidniteBob  Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides


Thanks, Jody.

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1133719 - 12/15/17 08:28 AM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: May 2006
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Colin Ward Offline
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Saint Petersburg. FL
I think the argument here is whether or not the internet is a government provided service like roads, policing, or water supply where everybody pays a certain tax rate to pay for it, or is the internet a business like any other business where you expect to pay for what you get.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1133729 - 12/15/17 03:19 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Jody Whitesides Offline
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Posts: 4,001
Park City, UT, USA
And therein is the rub Colin, seeing as how our tax dollars actually do go to laying the cable and fiber that these businesses use to supply the connection.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1133742 - 12/16/17 10:57 AM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
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Indianapolis, IN USA
All I can say is that after more than 10 years of working to pass Net Neutrality is that things have changed significantly since I first met with Senators and Congresspeople about it in DC, since the white papers and long research nights, or writing dozens of articles about it in the JPF newsletter and since we celebrated finally getting it passed. Even I can barely say what the net gain or loss is in the undoing. Much of what you've read has been falsely reported by both the left and the right to the point that I don't believe either side's pleadings on face value.

From what I know (and you'd be surprised how much this requires me to say "wow... we didn't see this coming" was the the framework that was passed by Obama would have completely killed any prospects to enter into new underserved markets (think small companies serving rural areas) because no investment banks would give out a dime because it was so open ended for new Government controls and legislation ALWAYS favors big pocketed special interest (i.e. the monolithic ISP's we all see on TV). Most people now get most of their internet via their cellphones and with 5G that will just continue. However with NN in place, even the leaders in ISP had stopped investing in upgrades and expansions until they saw inevitable legislation come down the pike. In truth, under the 2 years NN was in place, ISP tech and expansion and start-ups had regressed significantly in fear of what other special interests (mainly via the Google's, Netflix, Facebook, Twitter and massive cable company Comcast and massive fiber optic company (soon to own Time Warner Cable) AT&T would instruct their minions in congress to do next. Their abuse of the bandwidth usage (Netflix get's a free ride on ISP's backs and uses upwards of 40% of the entire bandwidth) would also keep any competition out of their marketplace. Where we made our biggest mistake was underestimating (frankly, never DREAMING) that the services would cease to be competition out there and a tiny number of monopolies would rule dominion so quickly over the entire internet. Take those entities out of the bandwidth and everything else makes up a single digit number combined. They had already monopolized the internet under NN. That's a fact and in truth as things stand no one can compete effectively with any of them in their areas of dominance. We saw that with Vidme shutting down just today and realize no one else is in line to compete with any of the above companies, not even in an effective fringe way. Ironically, sites such as YouTube and Twitten hemorrhage money on levels preventing anyone else from attempting to compete making them both, in my view, subject to becoming Utilities rather than free standing companies. Only the likes of Google can realistically afford the massive losses and keep on going. Twitter is likely to be swallowed by a larger company with deeper pockets, or to simply collapse under it's own weight if it doesn't figure out how to make money, something it has never once done.

Beyond the above, conditions under NN which expedited the monopolistic process also kept any investors or bankers from funding upstarts due to the lack of money these companies are making and the tremendous long term losses their own growth cause. Not only that, but Twitter in particular is shrinking already because, as a monopoly, and as an absolute power in the space, it has been corrupted by it's political views and has strayed into heavy handed censorship based on vague policies that are only enforced against the half of the country they disagree with. That is not a rosy long term prospective from which to grow your business. Start Up's like Patreon are learning these same harsh lesson's themselves right now and are still small enough to likely be challenged and defeated by the upstarts it is competing with which assure both sides Free Speech. Sadly, no such alternative options exist for YouTube or Twitter which is again why they should be turned into utilities where the laws governing free speech go into effect. Bringing Govt. in has it's own downfalls however, so it may be a net loss to consumers no matter what happens. Govt. is trying to penetrate free speech protections all the time so giving it one more tool in which to slip into the practices is risky to say the least.

Under NN, one side would be able to abuse the other. When we first launched into NN, the cable companies and a few digital ISPs seemed destined to own the market quickly, but we didn't anticipate the uprise of Cell Phone delivery circumventing cables and optical wires which dominated at the time. Currently we have over a dozen capable players providing internet rather than the 3 dominant one we saw with Comcast, Time Warner and AT&T. That transition alone would have made us rethink NN from the inception.

So that is the anti-NN reality. Theoretically, competition from the 12 major competitors will result in ONLY the content providers paying the costs to those ISP's for their bandwidth rather than increased rates for consumers. Cell service will continue to improve and costs will go down, especially when Netflix and others must compete in the free market and pay the ISP's for hogging bandwidth.

Here's a video that shows both arguments you may want to consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G35g5HQVjpU

This is the rare topic where both sides have valid points, but neither side is well understood or represented in the media. After spending more than a dozen years on this (even before it was called net neutrality) my bottom line is that we are likely screwed either way. Disney just bought Fox further combining all those assets into one monolithic monstrosity. We are SO screwed.....

Brian
'


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#1133767 - 12/17/17 10:10 AM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,625
Everett Adams Online content
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Everett Adams  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,625
,NL Canada
I wrote a book a few years ago pointing out what is happening in the market place that was going to come back and bite consumer in the pocketbook. Too much control ending up in too few hands. This is just an example of what is happening in farming, fishing, logging, retail stores, oil production, manufacturing, etc. The list goes on and on. The extra large companies buying up or squeezing out their competition, by what ever means it takes. Soon you will have very few choices to buy from for what ever item or service you need. These companies can take a loss for a few year to force smaller companies out of business, because when they corner the market, they will quickly recoup those losses and charge the consumer what ever they want, because they are the only supplier left.

We consumers are our own worst enemies. We quickly grab the lowest price for whatever, which is provided by the largest and riches business in town, forcing smaller business, who does not have the buying power of these big business, out of business. Then these big business start inching up their prices, now you have no choice but buy from them. Big business now have a lot of control over governments, soon they will have complete control.

#1133768 - 12/17/17 10:28 AM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,255
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,255
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well Yes,
Chicken Little is still in control, or is he? I remember many years ago when every drug store was selling vaccum tubes. The T.V. Repair Services were moaning about being put out of business. You could test a tube and see if it was bad and buy a replacement if you needed one. When a business needs to move some product that is moving slow they have a sale! I think it happens all the time with groceries. Today the Car Dealers are having big sales because cars, etc, are not selling. All it requires is a little Horse Sense. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!


Ray E. Strode
#1133778 - 12/17/17 02:33 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 690
Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
Top 500 Poster

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 690
Conover, North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
All I can say is that after more than 10 years of working to pass Net Neutrality is that things have changed significantly since I first met with Senators and Congresspeople about it in DC, since the white papers and long research nights, or writing dozens of articles about it in the JPF newsletter and since we celebrated finally getting it passed. Even I can barely say what the net gain or loss is in the undoing. Much of what you've read has been falsely reported by both the left and the right to the point that I don't believe either side's pleadings on face value.

From what I know (and you'd be surprised how much this requires me to say "wow... we didn't see this coming" was the the framework that was passed by Obama would have completely killed any prospects to enter into new underserved markets (think small companies serving rural areas) because no investment banks would give out a dime because it was so open ended for new Government controls and legislation ALWAYS favors big pocketed special interest (i.e. the monolithic ISP's we all see on TV). Most people now get most of their internet via their cellphones and with 5G that will just continue. However with NN in place, even the leaders in ISP had stopped investing in upgrades and expansions until they saw inevitable legislation come down the pike. In truth, under the 2 years NN was in place, ISP tech and expansion and start-ups had regressed significantly in fear of what other special interests (mainly via the Google's, Netflix, Facebook, Twitter and massive cable company Comcast and massive fiber optic company (soon to own Time Warner Cable) AT&T would instruct their minions in congress to do next. Their abuse of the bandwidth usage (Netflix get's a free ride on ISP's backs and uses upwards of 40% of the entire bandwidth) would also keep any competition out of their marketplace. Where we made our biggest mistake was underestimating (frankly, never DREAMING) that the services would cease to be competition out there and a tiny number of monopolies would rule dominion so quickly over the entire internet. Take those entities out of the bandwidth and everything else makes up a single digit number combined. They had already monopolized the internet under NN. That's a fact and in truth as things stand no one can compete effectively with any of them in their areas of dominance. We saw that with Vidme shutting down just today and realize no one else is in line to compete with any of the above companies, not even in an effective fringe way. Ironically, sites such as YouTube and Twitten hemorrhage money on levels preventing anyone else from attempting to compete making them both, in my view, subject to becoming Utilities rather than free standing companies. Only the likes of Google can realistically afford the massive losses and keep on going. Twitter is likely to be swallowed by a larger company with deeper pockets, or to simply collapse under it's own weight if it doesn't figure out how to make money, something it has never once done.

Beyond the above, conditions under NN which expedited the monopolistic process also kept any investors or bankers from funding upstarts due to the lack of money these companies are making and the tremendous long term losses their own growth cause. Not only that, but Twitter in particular is shrinking already because, as a monopoly, and as an absolute power in the space, it has been corrupted by it's political views and has strayed into heavy handed censorship based on vague policies that are only enforced against the half of the country they disagree with. That is not a rosy long term prospective from which to grow your business. Start Up's like Patreon are learning these same harsh lesson's themselves right now and are still small enough to likely be challenged and defeated by the upstarts it is competing with which assure both sides Free Speech. Sadly, no such alternative options exist for YouTube or Twitter which is again why they should be turned into utilities where the laws governing free speech go into effect. Bringing Govt. in has it's own downfalls however, so it may be a net loss to consumers no matter what happens. Govt. is trying to penetrate free speech protections all the time so giving it one more tool in which to slip into the practices is risky to say the least.

Under NN, one side would be able to abuse the other. When we first launched into NN, the cable companies and a few digital ISPs seemed destined to own the market quickly, but we didn't anticipate the uprise of Cell Phone delivery circumventing cables and optical wires which dominated at the time. Currently we have over a dozen capable players providing internet rather than the 3 dominant one we saw with Comcast, Time Warner and AT&T. That transition alone would have made us rethink NN from the inception.

So that is the anti-NN reality. Theoretically, competition from the 12 major competitors will result in ONLY the content providers paying the costs to those ISP's for their bandwidth rather than increased rates for consumers. Cell service will continue to improve and costs will go down, especially when Netflix and others must compete in the free market and pay the ISP's for hogging bandwidth.

Here's a video that shows both arguments you may want to consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G35g5HQVjpU

This is the rare topic where both sides have valid points, but neither side is well understood or represented in the media. After spending more than a dozen years on this (even before it was called net neutrality) my bottom line is that we are likely screwed either way. Disney just bought Fox further combining all those assets into one monolithic monstrosity. We are SO screwed.....

Brian
'


Brian, you may well be right that it is not consumers who will end up paying the premiums, but it will make it really hard for small companies and start-ups to compete on the internet with those with deep pockets, who will, in turn, be gouged by the toll keepers on the information superhighway. There really is no way to spin this positively, whichever political team you happen to support. It's a distortion of capitalism. Like many, many people I have no choice when it comes to internet provider. It's a local monopoly, so it needs to be regulated. You are right though that wireless providers have changed the landscape somewhat, although where I live, only one provides decent coverage.

#1133782 - 12/17/17 10:31 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Sep 2012
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Sue Rarick Offline
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Sue Rarick  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 363
Oak Grove, KY
Brian did a masterful job of explaining both sides but being a simple minded dote Here is what happens when big business and government get together in a simpler form.

When the Casinos first came to Atlantic City there were literally dozens of live music venues in the city. It didn't take the Casinos long to propose legislation they said would protect the artists - but what it really did was add so much paperwork for the club owners that the majority of them just stopped having live music and put control in the Casinos hands and ended competition. Big business can legislate small business out of the picture




#1133785 - 12/18/17 07:13 AM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: Sue Rarick]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by Sue Rarick
Brian did a masterful job of explaining both sides but being a simple minded dote Here is what happens when big business and government get together in a simpler form.

When the Casinos first came to Atlantic City there were literally dozens of live music venues in the city. It didn't take the Casinos long to propose legislation they said would protect the artists - but what it really did was add so much paperwork for the club owners that the majority of them just stopped having live music and put control in the Casinos hands and ended competition. Big business can legislate small business out of the picture


And that is exactly what was happening under NN. Govt. on the side of Google is NEVER a good thing. When they are on the same team with them, Twitter, Netflix, Disney, etc. they were hammering ISP's to the point where they all regressed. If they had set pricing (as they were moving towards) then it is a race to the bottom to give as little as possible for that set rate which is the only way they can increase profit. It is the same issue with Socialized medicine. A race to the bottom.

Look, honestly, I can argue both sides which means, as I said above, we are SCREWED either way. I assure you whoever has the power will abuse it. They always do. Us little people are just the cannon fodder.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

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#1133817 - 12/19/17 02:36 AM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
Johnny Daubert Offline
Top 25 Poster
Johnny Daubert  Offline
Top 25 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,102
New Jersey, USA
I learned more here than on Facebook that's for sure! Thanks Brian and everyone. I now THINK I understand about 50% of all of the above, and that's a GOOD thing compared to the 10% before reading through these posts. (Glad I took Evelyn Wood in 8th grade!) Ha!

If we had a vote on it NN or not, I THINK I would be moving my pushing finger back and forth for a while, and still not sure if I would be voting for us worker ants no matter the choice. At least I learned THAT! (There is no great choice in NN or not NN). I Guess it's it's like when Rockefeller and ALL those other rich men controlling the big businesses were doing what they wanted, despite anything. Until the breakups. But even then! (IS why I should have become KING of the music business or KING of the piano tuning business,,,,for me that is. Not for all you working ants! ha!

I am making zero pennies ever since almost two years ago. I need a plan put in place for me to GET DEMO MAKING WORK or anything! ha! NO joke though. Do I need to loose weight to put on the Red Light when Cindy isn't home? NOW that's a JOKE!

Johnny thanks you all!


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#1133861 - 12/20/17 06:20 PM Re: No more Net Neutrality.... [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,302
Dave Rice Offline
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,302
Texas
Sounds like we will need to wait a bit to discover the real outcome of this action. Big Government and big corporations working together is a bit scary and eventually, the market or new innovation(s) will cause change in one way or the other. Possibly in a direction none of us can even imagine.

Thanks to John and Brian for sharing explanations and opinions.

Best, ----Dave


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