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TIME
by Martin Lide. 02/15/19 02:16 PM
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Ashes
by Deej56. 02/14/19 11:10 PM
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#1131204 - 10/04/17 02:17 PM
Dying art of the song intro
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,377
John Voorpostel
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#1131235 - 10/05/17 01:33 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Brian Austin Whitney
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Indianapolis, IN USA
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Impatience is a killer to most art forms. If someone writes a song, they want the singable chorus in 20 seconds. If it's a movie, they want something BIG or shocking or thrilling or terrifying to happen in the opening scene. TV show? Better have a big laugh, controversy or a tearful crisis a few minutes in (or less). People don't consume poems anymore unless they are listening to one with a Rap beat. Same with books, radio shows, news of all types and formats, and anything else competing for people's 3 second attention span.
I haven't read the article yet, but thanks for sharing it John!
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."
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#1131274 - 10/06/17 07:48 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,288
Martin Lide
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Houston, Texas
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Impatience is a killer to most art forms. If someone writes a song, they want the singable chorus in 20 seconds. If it's a movie, they want something BIG or shocking or thrilling or terrifying to happen in the opening scene. TV show? Better have a big laugh, controversy or a tearful crisis a few minutes in (or less). People don't consume poems anymore unless they are listening to one with a Rap beat. Same with books, radio shows, news of all types and formats, and anything else competing for people's 3 second attention span.
I haven't read the article yet, but thanks for sharing it John! All true. There is so much media competing for attention in this age that you have to do something attention-grabbing quickly to be noticed. As for intros...my personal theory is that today's avid music fan wants to be part of the art. That is the lyrics and whatever message or sentiment is being delivered for them to memorize and sing along with. Long intros, which I like, just get in those folk's way. Like anything else that I post....worth what you paid for it.
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#1131379 - 10/11/17 08:42 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: maccharles]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Brian Austin Whitney
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Indianapolis, IN USA
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[naughty word removed] attention span, do what feels correct. I agree Mac. Since the odds of making real money in music is so limited, nearly into lottery odds, you should always write to please yourself so at least when you're done you'll have that release and satisfaction. That is the lions share of reward music gives you anyway. Money isn't a reward for creating art, reaching and moving an audience is, whether it is 1 or a billion. I'd much rather write a song that moved the world and I got paid nothing for, than to make millions and no one remembered or cared. But if your music is no more than ordinary droll work product, a widget so to speak, then you best know how to make a widget that will sell. Art vs Commerce, two things with very different dynamics and measurements of success and value.
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."
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#1133118 - 12/01/17 12:20 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 902
Fdemetrio
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I think todays listeners are not conscious of the fact they are sitting down to listen.
When I was a kid, id tell myself, Ok when i get home from school, "im going to listen to Quadrophenia from beggining to end" and Id expect a begining a middle and an end, and lots of good stuff in the middle. Kids today are perfectly fine hearing a song in the middle of it
I said it before and Ill say it again, music is not as important as it once was to your average joe. Musicians will always love it but Ill ask my nephew, so whats your favorite group? "ahhh...uhmm, I mean, I dont know really, i just listen to whatever comes on" He likes music but dont have time for it, I tried to teach him guitar, he got one a few christmas ago, I think we had three lessons before it ended up under his bed. He does like banging on electronic drums though, but mainly hes interested in his Iphone and computer games
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 12/01/17 12:20 PM.
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#1133135 - 12/01/17 09:13 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Jody Whitesides
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Park City, UT, USA
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Oddly enough, I once had a powerful A&R guy at a major label tell me, in front of a room full of other songwriters, to double the length of my pre-chorus. He even prefaced it by saying "I've never said this before., but whoever wrote this: You could double the length of your pre-chorus." As he scratched his head. Mind you, this lead me to a signing offer with a major label.
The next day with a different industry pro on a different song, she spoke up and said "I really want to hear what this intro would sound like if it were twice as long." Mind you, she wasn't overly sure, but really felt it started the song strongly. I ended up responding that if the object is to get people to listen over and over, does it make you want to start the song over and listen again? She said yes. Then retracted her request.
Names withheld to protect the innocent.
Reality is, it comes down to the power of the song and the quality of the recording. In some cases, every part of a song could have a strong hook. That's how Gaga did it.
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#1133295 - 12/04/17 12:01 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Brian Austin Whitney
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Indianapolis, IN USA
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Reality is, it comes down to the power of the song and the quality of the recording. In some cases, every part of a song could have a strong hook. That's how Gaga did it. This is an important concept few people talk about... a great song can make every part as catchy and desirable as the chorus... don't always save those elements just for the chorus.
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."
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#1133390 - 12/06/17 02:32 AM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 497
TC Perkins
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Joined: May 2015
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Virginia
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To me there are two approaches to songwriting and recording: to make art or to make money. These two are not mutually exclusive, but more and more it is about making money not art.
In my case, I just do my art. I am not gigging anymore, but even if I was I would not take out a great intro and go to the chorus in 10 seconds or less just because I thought it might get me signed. If the song calls for it, sure, then do it. My motto is just write what you hear, and don't worry about it. If you start sucuumbing to outside pressures in the search for money, or the ever illusive fame thing, you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. And in this modern age, good luck getting a song published by a known artist unless you actually sit down, co-write it with them, and give away a big chunk of the writer royalties. Mechanical royalties have gaping loopholes so people want that writing/publishing royalty.
As someone stated before, some of the best songs I love so much have great intros (Hotel California for instance). For every formulaic pop or country song that eek into the charts for a day, I can find old and new songs alike that are actually interesting, and some of these had record sales in the millions. Almost every one has a signature intro.
My 0.02 TC
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#1134085 - 12/28/17 04:55 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 599
Pat Hardy
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The digital era and the instant gratification phenomenon is the culprit. I'd be happen to go back in time to the 60s, if I could. I can live without all these conveniences. It also affected photography ( I was a wedding photographer for 15 years ). Oddly enough, I once had a powerful A&R guy at a major label tell me, in front of a room full of other songwriters, to double the length of my pre-chorus. He even prefaced it by saying "I've never said this before., but whoever wrote this: You could double the length of your pre-chorus." As he scratched his head. Mind you, this lead me to a signing offer with a major label.
The next day with a different industry pro on a different song, she spoke up and said "I really want to hear what this intro would sound like if it were twice as long." Mind you, she wasn't overly sure, but really felt it started the song strongly. I ended up responding that if the object is to get people to listen over and over, does it make you want to start the song over and listen again? She said yes. Then retracted her request.
Names withheld to protect the innocent.
Reality is, it comes down to the power of the song and the quality of the recording. In some cases, every part of a song could have a strong hook. That's how Gaga did it. I really don't believe one should write a song with a preconcieved design, the song should dictate what it needs, not some systematical approad before a note is even conceived. I don't buy this idea of a "hook" being a particular section of the song. the entire song is the hook, for it if isn't, it's not as good as it could be.
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#1136662 - 02/10/18 03:28 AM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: TC Perkins]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Brian Austin Whitney
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Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Indianapolis, IN USA
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This whole idea that songs need to make it to the first verse in 10 seconds or less is rediculous. I timed country songs on the radio one day because someone tried to feed me this BS, and even they averaged longer than that. Other genres like rock average a longer amount of time to get to the singing. I guess fusion jazz sucks because there are no words. Give me a break. I've always understood that rule to apply to demos and I think people have widely expanded it to mean all music which it obviously doesn't apply to. People listening to demos do not need to hear your 30 second intro.
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."
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#1136720 - 02/10/18 02:52 PM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Jody Whitesides
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Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,001
Park City, UT, USA
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Reality is, it comes down to the power of the song and the quality of the recording. In some cases, every part of a song could have a strong hook. That's how Gaga did it. This is an important concept few people talk about... a great song can make every part as catchy and desirable as the chorus... don't always save those elements just for the chorus. That's modern songwriting in a nutshell.
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#1136857 - 02/12/18 12:12 AM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,458
niteshift
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Top 50 Poster

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,458
Sydney, Australia
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Hey All,
The intro, like the outro is simply a synopsis of the 2 or three major memes you have presented in the song.. These days, yes, much reduced in time to under 15 seconds. The intro should be a signature, which provides instant recognition. To not do so, will, as Brain has pointed out, not capture the younger audience, because they really do have ADHD and can't concentrate for more than 2 seconds.
cheers, niteshift
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#1137015 - 02/13/18 05:46 AM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Brian Austin Whitney
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Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,683
Indianapolis, IN USA
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Rick, Usually our judges learn a lot having to check out what others are doing... much easier to hear mistakes others make even for long term pros.
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."
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#1137035 - 02/13/18 11:22 AM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,074
Johnny Daubert
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,074
New Jersey, USA
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I think the "craft of songwriting" is not nearly as important as it was for the ions before the three P's, as Mike Caro would describe the current music business: (Producer, Pro Tools and Pitch Control).
Intros, even very short ones, can set the table in such a great, interesting way, the gist of "the song". Same with endings.
I would compose intros after The Song was in stone, with then creating a hint of what was to come, in one way or another. (A short take on part of the chorus hook in instrumental ways, or, a short melody taken from any part of the song that would set up the first verse, or the song's intro chorus, if not going to a verse right away.
The SONG would lend an Intro in one way or another. Funny, that I would open with a part of the song that came last in thought!
John
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#1137037 - 02/13/18 11:59 AM
Re: Dying art of the song intro
[Re: John Voorpostel]
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 902
Fdemetrio
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 902
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Intros and bridges are always hard, that's why people love not having to use them.
An into is kind of like a camera focusing on some mountain top, panning around until it sets inside a log cabin, where you then see people.
The verse is those people talking, or a narrator setting it up
I guess intros take patience, and if the song is brand new, it has little chance of being heard in full, when instant gratification is available to everybody with a computer
If the song is already known, the intro will be heard. I think it's the new songs trying to break in that might have a hard time.
If I hear Desperado intro, I already know what's coming, and stick around
If I hear a brand new song, I have no idea, so maybe I click elsewhere
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/13/18 12:01 PM.
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