Who's Online Now
22 registered members (Calvin, Ilmer_uzumaki, Harriet Ames, couchgrouch, Barry David Butler, Gavin Sinclair, Dennis Wright, 9ne, 4 invisible), and 196 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Dave Rice
Dave Rice
Texas
Posts: 6,198
Joined: February 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
New Website...
by John Lawrence Schick. 11/25/17 05:49 AM
When the gold and silver has lost it's shine
by Travis david. 11/25/17 05:42 AM
Coming back from the above
by Travis david. 11/25/17 05:40 AM
No Turning Back
by Travis david. 11/25/17 05:37 AM
COWBOYS FAREWELL
by Travis david. 11/25/17 05:34 AM
Did she talk about me? Travis and Vic
by Travis david. 11/25/17 02:04 AM
Anyone fancy helping me and also JPF
by Roy Cooper. 11/25/17 01:59 AM
Sometimes Not
by Ricki E. Bellos. 11/24/17 09:14 PM
Suite: Monster
by Ricki E. Bellos. 11/24/17 09:10 PM
'' I will never leave you''
by Dennis Wright. 11/24/17 08:09 PM
Broken
by Dave Rice. 11/24/17 02:50 PM
Another one gone
by Dave Rice. 11/24/17 02:45 PM
We Need Real Farmers (Revised)
by beechnut79. 11/24/17 11:41 AM
I Was the Donut Lady
by beechnut79. 11/24/17 11:30 AM
When Blue Turns To Gray
by beechnut79. 11/24/17 11:24 AM
I Want More
by swestern. 11/24/17 11:09 AM
Oprah Called & Said She Loved My Song
by Barry David Butler. 11/24/17 11:08 AM
Living In Another Man's Clothes
by Neil Cotton. 11/24/17 11:06 AM
This is for Love
by Michael Zaneski. 11/23/17 02:25 PM
Living a Song (That Someone Else Wrote)
by couchgrouch. 11/23/17 01:36 PM
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!
by Barry David Butler. 11/23/17 10:56 AM
Shop Black Friday Men/Women Nike Shoes Online Sale
by Ricki E. Bellos. 11/23/17 09:41 AM
chaussures nike free outlet
by Neil Cotton. 11/23/17 08:59 AM
Webshop FŁr Sportschuhe Converse
by jameswing122. 11/23/17 02:20 AM
Father and Son
by Deej56. 11/23/17 12:04 AM
Hard Promise
by Deej56. 11/22/17 11:53 PM
Love Goes
by Deej56. 11/22/17 11:46 PM
Dark Horse
by Deej56. 11/22/17 11:34 PM
I Remember Autumn
by Martin Lide. 11/22/17 08:32 PM
We Need Real Farmers
by Neil Cotton. 11/22/17 03:44 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,191
Kevin Emmrich 10,531
Jean Bullock 10,330
Travis david 10,316
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,571
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,746
Mike Dunbar 8,574
glynda 8,560
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,823
Corey 7,357
couchgrouch 7,216
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,428
Joe Wrabek 6,400
Dave Rice 6,198
ben willis 6,070
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,718
Linda Sings 5,601
niteshift 5,323
Vicarn 5,241
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,605
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,344
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Cindy Miller 4,178
Tom Shea 4,173
Neil Cotton 4,139
nightengale 3,964
TamsNumber4 3,962
Roy Cooper 3,903
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,760
Dan Sullivan 3,710
MFB III 3,687
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
beechnut79 3,265
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
E Swartz 2,929
PopTodd 2,874
Harriet Ames 2,868
Nigel Quin 2,802
MidniteBob 2,687
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Nelson 2,404
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,241
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
Wendy D 2,151
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
Ray Thyer 1,929
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
maccharles 1,770
floyd jane 1,713
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Noel Downs 1,620
Iggy 1,593
Cal 1,574
Rick Heenan 1,561
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,451
RogerS 1,445
Ralph Blight 1,440
Chuck Crowe 1,435
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,427
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,406
Stan Simons 1,402
in2piano 1,399
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,300
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
GocartMoz 1,261
Janice & Bud 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
PeteG 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
Glen King 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
summeoyo 1,083
Gerry 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
joro 1,045
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
lane1777 931
Jak Kelly 912
IronKnee 894
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
90 dB 745
tbryson 737
Andy K 733
Andy Kemp 732
Jackie444 720
ant 710
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
9ne 607
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
Pat Hardy 580
qbaum 570
nitepiano 565
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
Irwin 526
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
Moosesong 508
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
R&M 444
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 398
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
Cecilee 376
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Alek 352
Z - man 350
John K 348
JamesDF5 347
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Deej56 311
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
pomeranj 289
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#1131761 - 10/26/17 10:00 PM The First Day of Forever  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
JonDurham Offline
Casual Observer
JonDurham  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
Imnaha, Orergon
Thanks for taking a look.

Last edited by JonDurham; 10/31/17 12:23 PM.
#1131811 - 10/27/17 08:11 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,198
Dave Rice Offline
Top 40 Poster
Dave Rice  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,198
Texas
Jon:

I enjoy your "laid-back" style lyrics and vocal quality. Would love to hear your work with more orchestration... but I understand the problem. If Songwriter's were rich, they wouldn't need places to expose others to their songs! Martin might introduce you to Mike Zee who is a producing genius... and one helluva singer in his own right. I'm thinking he might do something similar for you like he's doing for Martin now. Not too long ago, I had him demo ten of my songs and liked everything he did for me (my vocal qualities are limited and fading fast) but I would invite you to look at the song near the top of the second page on the MP3 Forum here, called, "I Remember Autumn." (No, it isn't folk or country... but will give you an idea about what he can do orchestration and recording-wise.) As far as I can tell, this particular song has maybe topped the most ever listened-to song at this site. (Bragging intended... as far as Mike is concerned!)

I really enjoyed "The First Day of Forever" and believe you have what it takes to succeed in the "biz" if that is the direction you plan to take.

Regards and best wishes, ----Dave

#1131814 - 10/27/17 08:43 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
JonDurham Offline
Casual Observer
JonDurham  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
Imnaha, Orergon
Thanks for the reply on both of the songs I posted up.

I am not too terribly interested in much more production of my songs than what you hear on these tracks. If anyone else wanted to take a crack at them, that would be great, but I don't pour that sort of time or effort into making demos. I used to explain to other writers that if you are going to spend that sort of time and money on songs, for the purpose of trying to get some "big" money, you are statistically better off to buy scratch off tickets at the c - store. Just like lottery tickets, there are literally a million losers in the demo pile before a "winner" emerges. Horrible odds for even the most talented people who make music. I have a decent catalog, six albums and a seventh in the making, I get a little something in my BMI quarterly statement, I have toured the country and used these songs to earn my living for a number of years. I never got "rich" and I work a different job these days, but I still make good money making and playing music. If that description doesn't fit someones bill for "making it" then my advice is to not get into making music. You're doing it for the wrong reasons with the odds on you never reaching that definition of "success".

My interest in making music comes from an Americana, Roots tradition. My friend David Childers chartered his record "A Good Way to Die" in 2001 on the US and European Americana charts. It was recorded on a Fostex four track. Todd Snider, another favorite of mine, made a record called "Todd Sings Kris", doing a bunch of Kristofferson songs. There are tracks where you can hear the dog barking in the other room. It's an outstanding record.

I know I am in the wrong place to say this out loud, but my opinion for years about most popular music is that it is grossly over produced. We could talk all day about why that is, but suffice to say I don't care for it and never have wanted anything I did to sound anything like what comes out of most commercial recordings. I like East Nashville. Don't care about the other side of the river much. And honestly, East Nashville is transforming into what some of the musicians who moved there 20 years ago were trying to stay away from, but still be close to some money.

Anyway, I appreciate your comment and your advice.

#1131893 - 10/31/17 09:14 AM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,282
Ricki E. Bellos Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ricki E. Bellos  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,282
Wisconsin
Jon, I like the singer/songwriter/folk style you have and think I would enjoy sitting in an intimate venue listening to your stories. But I have an issue with this song because it feels like you've written 3 songs that are (very) loosely tied together only because of the first person POV. If asked what this song is about, I can give 3 separate answers and still not be right because any answer would be ignoring 2/3 of it. There is no focus that I can see.

Is it about leaving one life to seek another? The title fits that theme perfectly. Is it about too much soul searching and just wanting to find peace of mind? Is it about finally finding true love, in which case the title would also work? Any of these themes is great for a song but none are explored in this song fully enough for me. They barely scratch the surface. I think if you took any pair of verses and dug into them even deeper, you'd have a better, more compelling song. And if you did it for all three sets of verses, you could potentially have 3 better songs.Obviously, this is just my opinion.

I understand you write for yourself and don't really care whether the listener catches your meaning but I gave you my opinion anyway because you did ask. smile

Ricki

#1131898 - 10/31/17 11:43 AM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
JonDurham Offline
Casual Observer
JonDurham  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
Imnaha, Orergon
Thanks for the comment Ricki,

Whatever you get out of the song, or don't get, well, that's on you! What I can tell you is that this song is a near direct story line of my life since April 18 of this year. And admittedly, I sort of wander with no clear direction a lot. So if the song reflects that....

Verse #1 - I packed up and closed up the house

Verse #2 - I left the state, with a lot on my mind

Verse #3 - What was on my mind? Too much and I just wanted to find peace and my true love.

Verse #4 - So I drove into the canyon to find some peace of mind

Verse #5 - Who showed up? Perhaps that true love I was looking for

Verse #6 - The ode to that love interest to stay forever

I do find it amusing, and always have, that often when I write from a genuine, first person, authentic narrative, song writers who live in the world of make believe, contrived songs about fictional characters and fictional events, often find these narratives difficult to follow.

I dunno... it all makes perfect sense to me, and I am the person that matters. I wrote this song for me. I rarely write for anyone else. If and when I do decide to write for someone else, I will take your advice into consideration!

Thanks again for the comment.

#1131902 - 10/31/17 04:57 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,578
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,578
California
Originally Posted by JonDurham
I do find it amusing, and always have, that often when I write from a genuine, first person, authentic narrative, song writers who live in the world of make believe, contrived songs about fictional characters and fictional events, often find these narratives difficult to follow.


I notice you took all your songs down, but that's not why I felt the need to write this.

A simple thought experiment can prove that it makes NO DIFFERENCE (in terms of a song's value) how one comes to write a specific song.

Let's say songwriter A writes a really simple song that strictly follows her own life and thoughts and experiences, and lets call that song "My Exciting Life."

Let's say songwriter B lives in isolation in Siberia with no Internet, but has a vivid imagination, and comes to write the exact same song called "My Exciting Life," word for word, even though it has nothing to do with B's life whatsoever. Just go with this--theoretically this is within the realm of possibility, and this is just a thought experiment.

By your "argument" it would seem that songwriter A's song is valid cuz its "genuine, first person, authentic narrative" whereas songwriter B's song is a "make believe, contrived song about fictional characters and fictional events.."

and yet..THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME SONG!

Okay, so you are not making an "argument" per se, but an "observation" but it seems, fallacious and rather mean spirited and biased. Biased how? Let's see. People that write strictly using their own lives, thoughts, emotions, etc. are writing "geniune" and "authentic" stuff, whereas imaginative writers are writing "contrived" songs and live in a land of "make believe." These are your words.

Perhaps consider that even though imaginative writers can seem to make stuff up, that does NOT mean that those imaginings don't have strong connections to their lives. Maybe there is a degree or two (more) of 'separation', but I would argue that imaginative writers are writing from NO LESS an authentic place. (It just might be a place that is harder for a biographer to figure out, involving a bit of detective work, perhaps..)

What is kind of disturbing, though, is how quickly you come to characterize Ricki's writing as being totally made up stuff and having no real bearing on her life. You base this an how large a sampling of her songs? I'm curious. I've known Ricki for some time, and many of her songs are borne of her experience in a very direct way. Here's one for starters, called "Fallen Angel" which is about the death of a relative:

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1119192.html

If an "authentic" writer and an "imaginative" writer can theoretically come to write the exact same thing, then perhaps one cannot rely on any song's presumed "origins" when looking to understand that song or find value in it, as a reader or listener. Maybe we are forced to simply look at the the song, and not worry so much about how it came to be?

Perhaps an "imaginative" writer can have a hard time following an "authentic" writer for many other reasons, other than an "imaginitive" writer just being "contrived" and living in a "fantasy world." I bet there's a myriad of reasons this can happen, because there are countless reasons why ANY communication between ANY two is fraught with difficulty..

I think that sometimes an "authentic" writer simply hasn't tried hard enough to be understood and their song is just not good writing..plain and simple..that happens too, yanno. smile

Just because it's somebody's "true authentic experience" does not mean that it's suddenly good writing, LOL..

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/31/17 09:48 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1131904 - 10/31/17 06:55 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 931
lane1777 Offline
Top 500 Poster
lane1777  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 931
south of the mason,dixon line
I never say anything about peoples intentions ..how or why they write songs., we all have different reasons and goals I think
Jon if you consider this finished, you might give people here a heads-up you are..just a header note would do that.
"just for you all to listen to" this is a feedback forum expect Ricki and others to do that..say your sorry and post some more songs all can listen too...Lane


"Grace always pours from a closing wound"
#1131906 - 10/31/17 07:53 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,282
Ricki E. Bellos Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ricki E. Bellos  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,282
Wisconsin
Wow, Jon, my bad. I thought you posted your songs looking for comments. If I'd known that they were sacrosanct I never would have dared a critique.

I find that some writers are so busy being authentic that they forget how to tell an interesting story. And that in their rush to defend their work, they lay out long, unnecessary explanations thinking that throwing even more words at it will solve the problem. Like yelling at a foreigner in English, thinking that if you get the volume right, they'll understand. I'm all for authenticity, I just don't believe in letting it get in the way of a good story and for me, it's all about communicating that story.

This is a feedback forum but people often post finished songs, just to share. If that's what these songs you've posted are, then say so and we can all listen and congratulate you on nice they are. If you actually want feedback, then take it with the same intention with which it was given. We're all on the same journey.

Ricki

#1131911 - 10/31/17 10:38 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
JonDurham Offline
Casual Observer
JonDurham  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
Imnaha, Orergon
Thank you all for your input. I made a mistake to subject my work to this group. I sort of knew that from the start and only contributed here because of old relationships. My mistake. Carry on.

#1131912 - 10/31/17 11:44 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
JonDurham Offline
Casual Observer
JonDurham  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
Imnaha, Orergon
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski


A simple thought experiment can prove that it makes NO DIFFERENCE (in terms of a song's value) how one comes to write a specific song.

..


Hey Michael... I wanted to respond to your comment, not at all about my song, but about your postulate here that is dead wrong.

Never underestimate the power of a small, dedicated group of fans.

This could be about any number of successful, working musicians.... Hayes Carll, John Craige, Jonathan Byrd, David Childers, Michael Reno Harrell, Aaron Lee Tasjan, Malcomb Holcombe... on and on and on....

Fans care about YOU and YOUR LIFE if you intend to develop a career in music. If you want to write ONE SONG that some Nashville pretty boy can sing and make you a buck, well good for you. I am not breaking your balls about it. But if you want to develop a career as a singer - songwriter, people will actually follow you. They will know who you are dating, where you are living, when your mama dies, when your dog gets run over.... they will already know your story and they will want to know about it. You folks in this "Nashville" sort of circle look at songs as being completely and utterly detached from the person. You want a song that anyone can sing and relate the story without the listener knowing or caring to know the first thing about the person who delivered that song. The song has to be complete, to anyone, without any prior knowledge of the person telling the story. Fact is, that is not how music that sustains works. That is how easily forgotten, next-man-up, music works.

I mention Todd Snider again, because I like and am familiar with his work. One, of many very personal songs is "Long Year". It is a story about a part of his life that only those who actually follow TODD SNIDER, not just ONE SONG that TS wrote, can understand. And it is written that way. It's not for anyone else. It's not broad or generic, it is specific to people who already know his particular struggle, at that specific time, in his specific life. If you don't know or never followed the guy, the song is not for you. What you guys don't seem to understand, for the most part, is the importance of developing a dedicated fan base who knows your story ALREADY and is following along with YOUR LIFE and waiting to hear what you write next about your journey. You guys want one song, you judge based on ONE SONG, not the big picture of developing a career of singing about your experience to the same group of people. You want broad... generic...detached. That is not the way to all music. It is actually the way to one, very narrow brand of music.

The music I write is very specific to ME. There are those who know my story, who already have the back ground, and like any continuing story, I do not need to cover the circumstance in everything I write. The people who care to know, already know I left NC and trekked out to Oregon. They know why. They now just want to hear it in song. They want to sing along to the journey they can't make themselves.

If anyone else had written "Long Year" it ends up in the trash heap. But Todd Snider wrote it. And that matters to the folks that follow Todd Snider. That is why disingenuous, fake, flashy Nashville stars often fade, after a "flash in the pan". Because their story is inauthentic and contrived. Meanwhile, the people who live their music, the folks who write about their own lives and develop a following based on where they have actually been, often have long and storied careers. Guys like Townes Van Zandt even aspire to outlive their own years and become legends, by not giving two shits if anyone can immediately recognize their narrative.

Nothing wrong with writing for a buck. Good for you. Hope every average Joe looking for immediate gratification gets your hook. I am not after that, thanks. Fact is, based on all available evidence, the actual value of a song does correlate with how the song came to be. "Snowing on Raton" doesn't continue to generate revenue in Townes catalog because it is soem ultimately generic, relatable song. It generates interest, a following and love over the long term precisely because of how it was written.

You ssir, are on the shallow, RIGHT NOW track. I am after something that perhaps may endure, long after any benefit I may receive. Neither track is superior to the other and no need to disparage me or me to disparage you. Agreed?

#1131913 - 11/01/17 01:51 AM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 311
Deej56 Offline
Top 500 Poster
Deej56  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 311
Jon,

Iím not sure I want to jump into this, but here I go.

First, letís start with some common ground, upon which I would think songwriters and performers should generally agree:

ó There are different ways people approach writing and performing songs.
ó No way is necessarily better than any other way.
ó Whether a song is good depends on how any particular listener hears it and relates to it, which may differ dramatically from listener to listener, based on their impression of the lyrics and music, or perhaps their understanding of the artist and his or her intent.

ó Most people listen to a particular song without the benefit of contextóthey hear the lyrics and music for the first time and decide whether they like it or not, but . . .
ó . . . still other listeners may follow a particular artist, understand and relate to the personal experiences that serve as the basis of that artistís songs, and enjoy that music because they understand the artist and relate to his or her life experience or form of musical expression.
ó Some musicians donít write strictly from personal experienceóit may be based on an aspect of their lives, or may be entirely fiction.
ó Finally, the merit of any song is determined on a listener by listener basis. What I think sucks, someone else may thinks is awesome, and vice versa, regardless of whether it is written from personal experience or is totally from the fabric of the artist's imagination.
ó Music is subjective; itís not a science; itís not math; thereís no magic formula.

So if we can agree on thatóand Iím not sure how we canítóthen what the conversation above is reduced to is simply a matter of courtesy.

This is a public forum. When I joined JPF I understood quite plainly that anything I posted would be subject to critiqueóthat seemed to me the very point. In my experience, the people on this site are first rate and considerate with their critiques; they spend a lot of time listening to contributorís songs, reading their lyrics and providing their thoughts and input, with sincerity, for what they may be worth.

Jon, I get that itís not always easy to hear what folks say about what we put out there. And, I get you wonít always agree with itóI know I donít and havenít always. Quite honestly, Iíve listened to number of your tunes that you posted and like them a ton. Wish I could play guitar and sing as beautifully as you do. That said, I agree with some of the comments youíve received; and disagree with many others. Bottom line, though, is that you are talented artist. And Iíd hate to not have you continue to post hereóbecause Iíve enjoyed your songs and your performances.

But, with due respect, we should be mindful that music, beyond all other things, is a subjective art, and take others opinions with a boulder of saltóand on this board, at least, with the knowledge that we are simply trying to help. Iím truly sorry if you took anyoneís comments, and mine for that matter, for anything other.

One last wordóthough Iím afraid it may undermine any credibility I may have established with the above. I take exception with artists who say ďI write for me,Ē and so it doesnít matter if the people who hear it appreciate it for what it is. And so Iíll depart from what I hope has been a diplomatic response to say thatís ďB.S.Ē And if Iím wrong about that, then you leave me wondering why you posted this song on JPF, why you asked for feedback, why itís on SoundCloud, and why you perform. Just mean to say that as artists, we all want be heard and appreciated. IMHO, there's a lot to appreciate in your songs. Hang around, keep posting your tunes, and helping others out with your insights!

I'm guessing it hasn't been the best start to JPF for you, but your are definitely welcome! I'm hoping you stay a part of our community.

Kindest regards,

Deej

#1131916 - 11/01/17 08:10 AM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 879
Martin Lide Online content
Top 500 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 879
Houston, Texas
Dear participants in this thread.

Jon can be argumentative, but he can also be kind and gracious. On a motorcycle trip, I had a very enjoyable evening staying with him at his home in South Carolina. It was the two of us and guitars and beer. We even wrote a song out of it.

"How Many Songs Did They Write Today in Nashville?"

https://www.reverbnation.com/skunkofhoustontexas?profile_view_source=header_icon_nav

Understanding Jon...

I cant truly say that I understand Jon, but I can give you one way to view him.

He has a personal reality that his performances express. The songs that he writes and performs and lives are a singularity that is him. They are perfect in that he wrote them the way that he wrote them as an expression of that singularity. Kinda like water going over a falls. Ten different people might like to see the falls reconfigured to their aesthetic tastes, but the falls perfectly adheres to the laws of physics and natural occurrence...and in a sense is a perfect expression of that.

For Jon, to change his songs on the basis of someone else's criteria would be too diminish their natural-ness. To enhance them musically would pervert their natural-ness. In a sense, they are the perfect expression of what they are, as they are.

When Jon rebukes your suggestions, don't look at it as an assault on them. Imo...he is just telling you why they are not right for him.

If this post seems ridiculous to you...it may be. Peace-maker is not my thing so much. smile

ps...I wish I could'a heard the song. frown




#1131926 - 11/01/17 11:18 AM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,578
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,578
California
Martin,

All this must feel a bit awkward for you since it's a safe bet that you are the "old relationship" that asked Jon to check out JPF. I appreciate your insights into Jon and hope you know this stuff doesn't reflect on you.

But it seems like sooner or later Jon would have taken off his songs if somebody making suggestions on how to improve one of them was going to create a reaction such as "people who do it like I do it are the righteous ones" which is really what he's saying when he says "I write from a genuine, first person, authentic narrative, song writers who live in the world of make believe (write) contrived songs about fictional characters and fictional events."

And that was all said in "begging the question" style in that Jon threw that biased attitude in there as a "given" as he was making a point about something else, as in, to paraphrase, "it's funny how it's always the contrived, unauthentic songwriters that are the ones that don't get my songs."

One of my points in my response to him was that everybody writes what they know. Jon simply chooses to remove as many degrees of separation between his life experience and his songwriting, which is fine, but if I write an imaginative song about carpentry, I am betting I write a better song if I actually know about carpentry, with that knowledge woven into the fabric of my life. I don't have to be a carpenter, though. I can use my imagination to meet the subject half way. I don't need to live it, and it certainly doesn't mean that I am a lesser breed of writer.

Jon,

Disparaging others is not in my DNA, but like Deej, I have been known to cry " B.S." from time to time.

It's still kind of disturbing how you characterize folks you've just met, putting us in our little boxes. You say to me, "You ssir, are on the shallow, RIGHT NOW track. I am after something that perhaps may endure" and if you don't think that sounds a little arrogant, I don't know what to say. Jon, you don't know who I am or what I'm about one bit. That takes time spent between people to get to know eachother, but whoops, you don't want to get to know us. But it seems you have a neurotic need to think you already DO know us, though, and to file away folks like me and Ricki into the contived, unauthentic group of songwriters. Maybe you have an unexamined, neurotic need to do this and Ricki's remarks triggered strange feelings in you. That's understandable, especially if you aren't used to people making critical comments about your songs.

In 1937 a white Jewish school teacher wrote a poem so far removed from his day to day existence, we could say this was pretty "unauthentic" on his part. And yet Abel Meeropol's poem and song "Strange Fruit" would become Billie Holiday's signature tune and a key song in the Civil Rights Movement. Score two points for the contrived, unauthentic folks that don't feel a need to live and breathe every written line but trust that the imagination connects back in a direct way. I'm certain a good half of Townes' songs are purely imaginative affairs. His story songs like "Tecumseh Valley" for sure. His love songs like "If I Needed You" are probably honest emotional expressions of something he was living.

But I agree with Deej. When you perform, folks show their appreciation by applauding and cheering, and you've gotta like the applause and cheering--who doesn't like that?. Now, I'm betting that you are no different than every other performer, in that some songs get more response than others, and if you care about your set list, you probably go home at night and wonder about that song that much fewer clapped on. So, you know, you DO care about what people think, and are probably no different than anyone else in that if you are close to a song, adverse reactions (to said song) can create neurotic reactions. So unless you rebuke your audience (by pluggin your ears) when they just smatter their applause, you are getting critiqued and recieving critiques when you play your songs, like it or not. It does seem like you need to keep the critiquing limited to an audiences responses when you perform, and that's fine. But I think you came here cuz you know we have something to offer you. We already get that you have something to offer us, but unless it's a mutual thing, it probably won't work out between us. (I'm smiling..intending a bit of a joke, there..I hope you are smiling too). Be well and have a safe journey.. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 11/01/17 11:38 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1131927 - 11/01/17 12:28 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
JonDurham Offline
Casual Observer
JonDurham  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
Imnaha, Orergon
Oh dear.

Martin is not the only person here I have corresponded with over the years. There are quite a few people here I have known, at least "electronically" in years past.

Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Martin,

But it seems like sooner or later Jon would have taken off his songs if somebody making suggestions on how to improve one of them was going to create a reaction such as "people who do it like I do it are the righteous ones" which is really what he's saying when he says "I write from a genuine, first person, authentic narrative, song writers who live in the world of make believe (write) contrived songs about fictional characters and fictional events."



Look, this thing that happens in this "Nashville style" of song writing where it takes six people to write a song, in the name of "improving" the song, it often eviscerates the song of any particular writing style. It is pretty unique to "Nashville" country for songs to be written this way. Many writers work is immediately recognizable by their turn of phrase, their grammar, their style. What often happens when a half dozen people tell you how to "improve" your song, is they pretty much act as a sort of song "PC" police. You most often can't distinguish one writers work from another in this particular genre simply because there is no one writers work to even consider. It's all a conglomerate of a think tank style of writing that robs the writer of his own legacy. No way for me to build my writing style like say... John Prine. Had John Prine taken on the advice of a dozen song pundits, I don't suppose we would have such a wonderful writer that is utterly recognizable simply by his writing style. This think-tank method of writing songs robs you and your work of originality. It robs it of personal authenticity. Simply because a group of people told you where YOUR STORY needed to be improved. See... my story is what it is, it unfolded the way I wanted it unfolded because it ultimately is about me. Not six other people who would have said it this way or that way or who would have used this word instead of that word... I used THAT WORD because THAT is the way I SAY IT. And it's my song. And the entire point of my songs is to make them a piece of ME. Not bits and pieces of several different people.

Yes, a song can NOT be authentic to a writer if six people wrote it. If that bothers you, I can only hope you get over it. Because it is evident, on it's face, that it is true. The song is not an authentic reflection of any one person simply because no one person wrote it. I can't listen to a song or read a lyric that was written by a group of people and know anything at all about one writer or that writers style or persona, because HE DIDN'T WRITE IT. The style is a conglomeration of people, using the same "song PC" thought process to debase whatever the original idea for the song was.

You think you are "improving" my song Michael. But that is a pretty arrogant thing to just blurt out, as if somehow anyone can improve the authenticity of my work, the most important thing to me about my work, by making it less authentic to me, the writer. That's not an improvement. That is a diminishing of the style and genuine personal nature of the songs not only I write, but most other writers out side of the "gang style" of writing.

YOU can't improve my work because the things you see as flaws or imperfections are the things that identify the song uniquely to me. And therein lies the difference in concept. I am writing FOR ME. I am writing for my song to sound like, feel like, flow like ME. Not for someone else to to tell me how THEY would have said it. My music is not about how YOU would have said it.

#1131929 - 11/01/17 12:48 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
JonDurham Offline
Casual Observer
JonDurham  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 21
Imnaha, Orergon
My apologies for the intrusion here folks. I just wanted to share some songs to some folks I ran across here that I had not shared any songs with in a few years. That's all.

I would ask the admin to delete or disable my account, please.

#1131932 - 11/01/17 01:10 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 879
Martin Lide Online content
Top 500 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 879
Houston, Texas
Jon's presence here was a surprise to me. I havent had any contact with him in years. And we had some acidic political arguments years ago, that make anything posted in this thread look like hugs and kisses.

Nonetheless...seeing him again would be great. Hanging out with guitars and beers and Jon would be something ld look forward too. His voice in person is much richer than his recordings convey.

Jon is Jon-centric. His way or no way. I dont make suggestions to him about his music because he doesnt want to hear them and I like what he does anyway.

I suggest everyone relax and drop away from any argument. smile

#1131936 - 11/01/17 01:49 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,578
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,578
California
Jon,

I apologize if I made you feel defensive and I will leave you alone now. Just know that I agree with you pretty much about "group think" writing, but it can work to make great TV--most serialized shows are written like that, and sometimes it works to make songs better.

I did find it odd that you characterized what me and Ricki and other folks here do is advocate group writing, the Nashville way? Mostly what we do is just say if we like a song or not, and then we offer reasons why we like it or don't like it. Think if it as surrogate applause or lack thereof. Most of us are really careful not to actually give concrete ideas, unless we know a writer is open to them. Letting you know we like a song or not--how is that so different from applause or cheering at a show, which I'm sure you like to get?

I want to believe you don't feel threatened by knowing if we don't like a song for whatever reason, but then I think of songwriters who seem to deal with it differently, like Tampa Stan, who never EVER changed a line in ANY of his songs, and yet was one of the most beloved members we ever had. A truly sweet and classy guy, and definitely NOT threatened by our suggestions.

Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1131937 - 11/01/17 02:18 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 26
Fdemetrio Offline
Casual Observer
Fdemetrio  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 26
Authenticity is important, if you are a singer-songwriter, and one who people expect authentic songs. People expect authentic you from Dylan, Springsteen, Petty, Mellancamp, And a slew of others.

They don't expect it from Bieber or Katy Perry, or many pop entertainers.

I'm not looking for insight when I hear Ricky Martin, if I could dance I might be looking to get my groove on.

I used to believe in critiques, back when forums such as this had serious songwriters, and back when there was an incline of a chance to write a song for so,embody else.

That's what most critiques are about...will this song be understood by publishers, so as to not be rejected before they have a chance.

I dont think anybody here has any hope of placing a song with a major artist, so you might as will be your own artist, and forget trying to write cookie cutter like

Taking authenticity a bit further, a fake song can be made to sound sincere when the singer sings it sincerely, and you believe him or her. Johnny Cash comes to mind, while I'm sure he meant his songs, and I love his music, he could sing a bs story and make it sound like a first hand account.

This is the problem with critiques, they cater to words on paper, and some people don't feel complete unles they say one negative thing

At the end of the day, the question is, do I like this song or don't I?

Just remember most songs on the radio we won't like, and what good would critiquing them be? It doesn't matter, they are on the radio

Goes back to subjective and objective. We all can opine on subjective, but objectively, it should require strong credentials, which most if not all on these forums don't have.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 11/01/17 02:20 PM.
#1131938 - 11/01/17 02:28 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,660
Barry David Butler Online content
Top 200 Poster
Barry David Butler  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,660
Sebring, Florida USA
I love singing one of my songs where I wrote both the melody and words as it feels genuine. IF and when I put a melody to somebody else' words it's ok but not as good. A great song makes people cry or laugh or feel it in their gut or heart and the way the singer sings it is important. SO it's so subjective. My wife and I don't like the same songs at all but even if I don't like a hit song I can see why it's a hit. A lot is about the Chorus and how catchy it is and a good first line. I wrote a song MY WALK THROUGH ARLINGTON.....but I felt I didn't need or want a catchy chorus as it told this ongoing story and it works great especially with the pics I got...SO that's my two cents.

#1131942 - 11/01/17 03:29 PM Re: The First Day of Forever [Re: JonDurham]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,198
Dave Rice Offline
Top 40 Poster
Dave Rice  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,198
Texas
Hey Jon:

I hope you know that JPF really needs your participation. Now that we have a better understanding of some of what makes you tick musically, I believe your style will "fit in" here perfectly. Sorry if I got the ball rolling in the wrong direction... if that was how you interpreted my comments. Never believe my comments are intended to be snarky or hurtful. You are as talented as anyone on this site in my opinion. Stick around... you might learn to enjoy it here. If not, vaya con Dios, my friend.

All the best, ----Dave


Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
jameswing122, asaltakavar, chilipily, mason_mcmahon, Lingbeek
20970 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics117,195
Posts1,103,260
Members20,971
Average Posts Daily36
Most Online1,506
Mar 16th, 2017
Just Plain Quotes
"That's just my opinion, I could be right" -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
broncolouie (64), darrell flowers (37)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0