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#1131438 - 10/14/17 10:10 AM Door Open Wide  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Gavin Sinclair Offline
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Gavin Sinclair  Offline
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Conover, North Carolina, USA
I applied some lessons I gleaned from Mike Zaneski on another thread to this one, particularly in the judicious use of Melodyne. It's still my voice, but it's more in tune smile Any feedback/suggestions much appreciated.


or for those who prefer listening on SoundCloud

#1131446 - 10/14/17 04:13 PM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,370
Calvin Online content
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Calvin  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 19,370
Okeechobee, Florida U.S.A.
Hello Gavin,

Smooth & nicely done.



#1131465 - 10/16/17 05:48 PM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,694
Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Hi Gavin,

I'm still hearing many flat and sharp notes, that are more than 45 -100 cents off. My suggestion was to bring notes that are off more than 15 cents high or low to within 15 cents of the center of that note, that after doing at least six takes and compositing those takes. In other words, if a note is 40 cents sharp, move it towards the center, within 15 cents of center. If a note is 40 cents flat, move it within 15 cents of center on the flat side (of center). This will retain the essence of your style--keeping sharp notes a tad sharp and flat notes a tad flat.

You want to get the most out of Melodyne without it killing your style, yes, but it appears to me that you pitch-corrected a bit too prudently, perhaps. You don't have a heavy vibrato. Melodyne will still sound natural if you move the notes even closer to the center. Use the pitch drift part of the pitch tool to lateralize and anchor your notes and the note separation tool on notes with too much drift for the pitch drift tool to handle. Melodyne is a deep program. It took me a couple years to really do good work with it.

15 cents or so is the "breaking point" for most ears before a note starts to sound flat or sharp. Within 15 cents of center will retain the essence of your sound and style without making it "perfect." I remember reading once that when they started auto-tuning Dionne Warwick late in her career, she used to tell the engineers, "not too perfect, guys, a little flatness is just my sound.."

Melodyne might take you a few months to master, but it's well worth the effort.

The song itself is very nice. smile


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/16/17 06:04 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1131466 - 10/16/17 06:49 PM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Gavin Sinclair Offline
Serious Contributor
Gavin Sinclair  Offline
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Conover, North Carolina, USA
Thanks Mike. You're right. I lost my nerve and didn't adjust enough on a lot of the notes. I'm going back and tweaking quite a bit. I provided myself with a very good sample to learn on - much better than a more skillful singer would have done smile

One annoying quirk I have discovered with Melodyne, and it may just be the basic version included with Mixcraft, is that the scale on the left that is supposed to show the notes changes to numbers. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does there doesn't seem to be a way to get it back to showing the actual notes of the scale and this makes working with it a lot more difficult.

#1131483 - 10/18/17 09:05 AM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Gavin Sinclair Offline
Serious Contributor
Gavin Sinclair  Offline
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Conover, North Carolina, USA
Mike, I went back and "re-melodyned" the song, following the Zaneski 15 Cent Rule, and posted the revised version to my website and SoundCloud links. You were right, of course. It does sound better, although I think I still have a lot to learn about how best to use it. Thanks for your help.



#1131484 - 10/18/17 02:02 PM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,694
Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,694
Hi Gavin,

It does sound much better. There's a sweet quality to your voice that I can clearly hear cuz it's less obscured. Some notes around "door opened wide" sound sharp or like wrong notes, but there's very few notes that sound flat out wrong, now.

I uncheck "autoscroll" in Melodyne and set my DAW to play back one phrase at a time on the song I'm pitch editing, that way the Melodyne window isn't moving around and I can get familiar with the audio I will be editing cuz I keep the audio rolling (over that phrase) while I edit. You may have found another way of working that suits you, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

If you've composited six or more takes and are still finding that Melodyne is having problems sounding natural on certain notes after you "correct" them, the best thing to do is go back a step and do some more takes to composite.

We all have a set of "standards" which are either known to ourselves, or we carry them silently within ourselves. If you were just singing one or two takes before and now you are singing six or more, that shows commitment to your material, and you will improve as a singer, just working harder at it like that.

The higher the standards you set, the more work it might take, but the reward is in the final recording. There is no shame in using Melodyne. I can understand a mindset that might feel shameful about it, though. But if you are singing more takes and generally working harder on your vocals, that might hopefully offset those thoughts.


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/18/17 02:10 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1131512 - 10/19/17 11:50 AM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Gavin Sinclair Offline
Serious Contributor
Gavin Sinclair  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 215
Conover, North Carolina, USA
Michael, you were right. There was a sharpness around those notes - your ear is pretty sharp too smile The problem seems to have come from Melodyne interpreting a couple of words as a single note. They should have been C and B, and when I adjusted, they both ended up as C. I split the note and that allowed me the needed flexibility. Seems obvious now! Actually, I don't think it sounded too bad like that for some reason, but I uploaded the corrected version to my website and SoundCloud.

I don't know about a sweet quality to my voice, but I'll take it - it sounds like it ought to be a good thing. Somebody once described my voice as "comfortable," which I guess makes it the vocal equivalent of an old couch or a sweater you can't quite bring yourself to throw out even though it's full of holes. Others have been somewhat less complimentary!

I did 8 vocal takes for this one. I usually end up settling on one for most of the track and splicing in fixes from other takes if necessary. I don't feel any shame about using Melodyne. I wish I was a singer, but given my limitations, I'm glad to have it, especially for songs like this which actually need you to "sing," unlike some of my stuff, where it's more like talking to a melody.

Thanks again for your help and especially for listening so closely. Not many people would take the time to do that.

#1131521 - 10/19/17 02:20 PM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 980
lane1777 Offline
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lane1777  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 980
south of the mason,dixon line
hey Gavin never got the chance to hear the version before this so I can only comment on this..the song is working very well I`m thinking, I`m sure Mike has been a great help to you, and thats what its all about. cheers to this song, and others coming. Lane

Last edited by lane1777; 10/19/17 02:21 PM.

"Grace always pours from a closing wound"
#1131567 - 10/21/17 10:19 AM Re: Door Open Wide [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,038
E Swartz Offline
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E Swartz  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,038
Hi Gavin!

I didn't hear the before, but I like what I'm hearing overall. Beautiful song by the way. Love the sentiment and the violin touch is perfect with this vibe.

I was just talking to Mike about melodyne in a different thread, and he's giving you expert advise concerning how to use it wisely. Perfection isn't always the best for lead vocals. Vibrato and modulation can correct some sharp or flat notes and give it character (if not too far off as Mike suggested). You can delve into melodyne and there are advanced versions that are pretty awesome from what I've read. I use it more for "comping" to sometimes create a "model" that I like if I find an area that befuddles me a bit. I check harmonies with it, but don't mess too much with lead vox unless there's an obvious problem, which I usually just re-sing. It's a great tool however, but use it like Mike the "doctor" suggests -- get the right amount of medicine!

Enjoyed this song very much Gavin!


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