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#1125453 - 03/15/17 06:31 PM The Art Of Rap  
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Trentb Offline
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I saw this film on cable tv a few days ago. I have never been a fan of rap, I couldn't name more than 5 rappers. I have never purchased a rap cd or downloaded or streamed a rap song. So I'm an expert on rap....lol

But I have always maintained there was skill involved, many people think there is not. You can watch the film below, but be warned, it's foul language all the way through, in fact I think the f bomb, is used more than the word...the

If that bothers you don't watch it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xpWu4_hp00M. Part 1

Part two https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zxuvsm8Kkco

Last edited by Trentb; 03/15/17 06:34 PM.
#1125454 - 03/15/17 06:46 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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MidniteBob Online content
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Raleigh, ya'll
Hey Trent,

This is from 1990..."Poppa Was a Rolling Stone"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-ke0Cklp6A

Was Not Was

IMHO, the best mix of music & rap ever!!!!

Totally family friendly....

Hope ya enjoy:-)

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1125465 - 03/16/17 07:09 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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Roy Cooper Online content
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Hi Trent...

The art of rap... ummm

When my Helen was in hospital, I had time alone at home, and decided to have a go at doing a hip-hop /rap song, (the lyrics only) as that is what I do.

So I spent many many hours on the net, researching the structure of rap lyrics and how they are put together from a rhyming POV.

Like you I was never a fan of hip-pop or rap, and thought that it was just spoken words that had no cohesion.

How wrong I was...lol

Having written many song lyrics over the years to different rhyming schemes, I was surprised to discover how complex rhyming schemes in rap and hip-pop can be.

As an example, a verse from mine and Jackie's Christmas song, followed by the chorus, showing my typical rhyming schemes.


verse where the last words of the lines rhyme.. in pairs

An old man on a bench, smiles at passers-by
Christmas spirit warms his heart, puts a sparkle in his eye
The snow is falling now, his son comes into sight
Sits down beside his dad, to welcome in Christmas night

chorus where all the last words rhyme...

The Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thing
Remembering the past, and the birth of a king
It's not just the gifts, tied with ribbon and string
It's family and friends and all the joy they bring
The Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thing


and a verse from the fireman, having a different scheme, but still the last words of line 2 and line 3 only need to rhyme.

His favorite toy, was a fire truck
And he knew what he wanted to be
Said mum, when I'm a man
I'll fight fires, and set people free..


Now to the hip-pop /rap rhyming schemes.


Not only do they usually have lines that rhyme with other lines, but also rhymes within lines.

verse 1 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines..

Sleeping in their bed, was the spider with her web
Who plied a twisted thread, that got inside his head
Looked so sweet laying there, indiscreet, she didn't care
He'd just became aware, she'd had a love affair

verse 2 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines..

He was out of his zone, as he left on his own
To sleep on concrete and stone, the street his new home
Was a man to avoid, his world was a void
Became unemployed, his ambition destroyed

and the rap verse in the song..

Life in a cell four by six, was a world of conflicts
Saw some give out kicks, while others joined or made cliques
He would never comply, or see eye to eye
So the years didn't fly, was a sad, lonely guy

I did find it so much harder to write the double rhyme lines, but as an excersize thought it was fun... tough but fun.

anyway, just thought that I would mention this, if anyone is interested.

here is the finished song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lBc9PM6fVs

God Bless Roy and Helen

Last edited by Roy Cooper; 03/16/17 07:12 AM.

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#1125475 - 03/16/17 10:39 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Originally Posted by MidniteBob
Hey Trent, This is from 1990..."Poppa Was a Rolling Stone"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-ke0Cklp6A Was Not Was IMHO, the best mix of music & rap ever!!!! Totally family friendly.... Hope ya enjoy:-) Midnite


Thanks for the link, enjoyed that.

#1125476 - 03/16/17 10:46 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Aw,Ha!,
The first Rap Song. SMOKE, SMOKE, SMOKE, THAT CIGARETTE by Tex Williams. You heard it here first! You can Goggle it.


Ray E. Strode
#1125477 - 03/16/17 10:53 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Trentb Offline
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Originally Posted by Roy Cooper
Hi Trent... The art of rap... ummm When my Helen was in hospital, I had time alone at home, and decided to have a go at doing a hip-hop /rap song, (the lyrics only) as that is what I do. So I spent many many hours on the net, researching the structure of rap lyrics and how they are put together from a rhyming POV. Like you I was never a fan of hip-pop or rap, and thought that it was just spoken words that had no cohesion. How wrong I was...lol Having written many song lyrics over the years to different rhyming schemes, I was surprised to discover how complex rhyming schemes in rap and hip-pop can be. As an example, a verse from mine and Jackie's Christmas song, followed by the chorus, showing my typical rhyming schemes. verse where the last words of the lines rhyme.. in pairs An old man on a bench, smiles at passers-by Christmas spirit warms his heart, puts a sparkle in his eye The snow is falling now, his son comes into sight Sits down beside his dad, to welcome in Christmas night chorus where all the last words rhyme... The Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thing Remembering the past, and the birth of a king It's not just the gifts, tied with ribbon and string It's family and friends and all the joy they bring The Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thing and a verse from the fireman, having a different scheme, but still the last words of line 2 and line 3 only need to rhyme. His favorite toy, was a fire truck And he knew what he wanted to be Said mum, when I'm a man I'll fight fires, and set people free.. Now to the hip-pop /rap rhyming schemes. Not only do they usually have lines that rhyme with other lines, but also rhymes within lines. verse 1 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines.. Sleeping in their bed, was the spider with her web Who plied a twisted thread, that got inside his head Looked so sweet laying there, indiscreet, she didn't care He'd just became aware, she'd had a love affair verse 2 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines.. He was out of his zone, as he left on his own To sleep on concrete and stone, the street his new home Was a man to avoid, his world was a void Became unemployed, his ambition destroyed and the rap verse in the song.. Life in a cell four by six, was a world of conflicts Saw some give out kicks, while others joined or made cliques He would never comply, or see eye to eye So the years didn't fly, was a sad, lonely guy I did find it so much harder to write the double rhyme lines, but as an excersize thought it was fun... tough but fun. anyway, just thought that I would mention this, if anyone is interested. here is the finished song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lBc9PM6fVs God Bless Roy and Helen
Pretty darn good first attempt at rap Roy. I agree the rhyme schemes get complicated. If it was just the rhyme, I'd say anyone could grab a rhyming dictionary and work from there. And alot of the content is just like, your mama jokes, I can do this thing and you can't, I'm cool and your not, I make ladies go crazy, etc etc etc

But the thing is if you are not from that culture, you think of it as stupid. You even think two guys talking to each other in the hood sound pretty stupid too, and the way they communicate is way different than us.

it's the rhymes, but also there is musicality to it. There is rhythm to your talking, there is the sound of your voice, a lot of syncopation, and lyrically alot of alliteration, and euphemisms, and hyperbole, I mean they use the same tools as poets and songwriters use.

And then there is the cool factor. Elvis had cool too. To be able to grab a mic and get people to pay attention. Not everybody has the ability to work a crowd, if you have ever played live, you know this

And the real impressive feature is when they can free style, it's no different than improvising on an instrument. So, while I simply don't like it, I can tip my hat to the talents needed to be good at it

Eminem freestyling, make fun if you want, but not many people can do this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8ZkiRijI8g

Last edited by Trentb; 03/16/17 10:57 AM.
#1125482 - 03/16/17 02:09 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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MidniteBob Online content
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Trentb
[quote=Roy Cooper]

Eminem freestyling, make fun if you want, but not many people can do this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8ZkiRijI8g


Glad you enjoyed "Poppa", Trent. Since you mentioned Eminem, and I have my own issues with rap, but I assume you've seen the movie 8 Mile? It gave me a whole appreciation of freestyling after watching it years ago.

I'll hafta check out the links you've dropped, because, as you say, even if one doesn't enjoy the music(?), that doesn't mean ya can't appreciate the "art" and derned hard work that goes into it.

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1125484 - 03/16/17 02:57 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Raleigh, ya'll
I tried my hand at writing a rap(mild) ONCE(it's beneficial to know one's limitations) while I was living in D.C. It was early at an open-mic and a young group had just rapped their way through 3 pieces. Since I was gonna be there for a while, I grabbed a handful of napkins and wrote this out and gave it to 'em before I left.

I never made it back to that open-mic and I doubt if they ever did anything with it, but it was a fun bit o' creative energy.

the tears of the mothers turn to salt in the gutters
down among the litter of discarded glass and sneakers
spray painted epitaph no one has the last laugh
empty bed at midnight someone cries at first light
that's the price you're gonna pay when you got another deal gone down.

empty space on porch swing voices in my head ring
a limousine tomorrow weighted down with sorrow
on a ride that lasts forever to a place that holds no pity
where everyone is equal and each soul has a marker
with flowers to remember a child who once was smiling

each day is a season with no promise of a future
and the rhythm of the traffic blends with heartbeats of survivors
while the tears of the mothers turn to salt in the gutter
just around the corner where everybody knows
there's gonna be a price 'cause they got another deal goin' down.


As I said, it's beneficial to know one's limitations:-)

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1125493 - 03/16/17 08:30 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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Roy Cooper Online content
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But the thing is if you are not from that culture, you think of it as stupid. You even think two guys talking to each other in the hood sound pretty stupid too, and the way they communicate is way different than us.

it's the rhymes, but also there is musicality to it. There is rhythm to your talking, there is the sound of your voice, a lot of syncopation, and lyrically alot of alliteration, and euphemisms, and hyperbole, I mean they use the same tools as poets and songwriters use.

And then there is the cool factor. Elvis had cool too. To be able to grab a mic and get people to pay attention. Not everybody has the ability to work a crowd, if you have ever played live, you know this

And the real impressive feature is when they can free style, it's no different than improvising on an instrument. So, while I simply don't like it, I can tip my hat to the talents needed to be good at it

Eminem freestyling, make fun if you want, but not many people can do this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8ZkiRijI8g[/quote]

Your so right Trent.. but it was worth the effort lol

God Bless Roy and Helen


'You Have To Kiss A Lot Of Frogs To Find A Prince'

Our Record Label

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#1125495 - 03/17/17 05:04 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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niteshift Online happy
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Hey All,

"And the real impressive feature is when they can free style, it's no different than improvising on an instrument."

Must agree. When in a venue a few weeks back, to see the main artist and on a ciggy break, out the front, courtesy of an extension lead was a three piece band playing jazz. Up walked 2 guys and started to rap with the trio. Just instinct. So the trio went into "cool beat" mode, and the rappers stole the show. Just improvised, but they looked around the small crowd and used Q's . i.e. big earrings, skinny jeans, dude smoking a cigarette etc. and made a story out of it for the ever increasing crowd.

We caught up with them later, while they were watching the main act, which was a rock guitar virtuoso.

REAL musicians don't have boundaries. It is only the inept and the musically incompetent that use their own limitations as a means to put others down.

cheers, niteshift

#1125748 - 03/24/17 08:46 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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When rap is done well, it rivals any lyrical art form.Probably exceeds most.

But talking emphatically to a meter is not nearly as difficult as singing well up through 2 octaves (or even into 3 for Martina McBride).

Last edited by Martin Lide; 03/24/17 08:51 AM.
#1125759 - 03/24/17 04:37 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Martin Lide]  
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MidniteBob Online content
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
When rap is done well, it rivals any lyrical art form.Probably exceeds most.

But talking emphatically to a meter is not nearly as difficult as singing well up through 2 octaves (or even into 3 for Martina McBride).


Hey Martin,

I'll give a nod to yer point....And thanks!!....

And I will respond with apples and oranges....

Oranges first: The Oranges are those few who are blessed with the vocal abilities to hit every high or low note....That ability is something that they are born to be able to do......It is, mostly about their "range"....Very rare and special and a "gift" that most don't possess...

Apples: "Talking emphatically to a meter"....Well, that is something that any common mortal can, and should, and ARE able to do...Dylan....Subterranean Homesick Blues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGxjIBEZvx0

Not sayin' that we can all do it well...

Just sayin' that we can appreciate those who try...

Midnite





Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1125780 - 03/25/17 01:06 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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Talking rhythmically to a meter is actually a skill and a natural talent versus something you are born with (a vocal range). Now, vocalists can dramatically improve control with lessons and practice etc. no doubt. But great opera singers are born. Rapping is certainly partially about having the right vocal control and inherent rhythm which many seem to be born with, but I have also known people with little natural rapping talent learn and practice and become top notch in the skill. If you aren't born with Opera range, or perfect pitch etc. you can't learn it or practice it without the built in ability you are born with.

It would be laughable to see the great opera singers attempt rapping. I highly doubt any, as disciplined as they are, could do it. Just as a top rapper is unlikely able to approach opera range. It really is Apples and Oranges and some prefer one, some prefer the other. I love them both.


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#1125789 - 03/25/17 07:24 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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Lots of creativity and skill in rap music.

I'm from a generation where rock music was the peoples music, but as we grew older and entered the middle class, rap became the new peoples music in the meantime.

So I enjoy rap as cultural critique, but I don't have the skills to do it myself, not legit to do it either.. but I do appreciate it.


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#1125793 - 03/25/17 11:24 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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Martin Lide  Online Content
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Talking rhythmically to a meter is actually a skill and a natural talent versus something you are born with (a vocal range).


Reinforcing what has already been stated.... wink...

Preface...I have respect for good rappers. 60 minutes did a segment on M&M years ago and it was real clear that he and people like him have a very real talent with words and a mind that can store them up and improvisationally flow them out in a coherent continuous stream on demand. Marco Rubio wishes he had that depth of talent.

But...When I used to take my songwriting hobby to studios, I found that the hardest people to get what I needed from were vocalists...so, to avoid the pain...I started learning to sing myself. I don't know what my range is but it is very limited. Working within those limitations and basically singing to pitch with a little bit of stylization has taken me years and is sadly still a hopelessly lacking work in progress.

Yet, I contend that I could have become proficient at talking to a meter after a one weekend seminar.

After a little practice and technique honing over a few months my life as a White rapper would all come down to natural timbre and having or not having the "it" factor. To that extent it seems a natural talent.

Admittedly, that's the view of an uncredentialed, unschooled (in music) , never paid his musical dues and don't intend to start....amateur hobbyist internet songwriting forum lurker. (though passionate smile ) But I think it's reasonably well founded and realistic.

Martin

Last edited by Martin Lide; Yesterday at 09:01 AM.
#1125820 - 03/25/17 08:43 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Talking rhythmically to a meter is actually a skill and a natural talent versus something you are born with (a vocal range).


Beg to differ...

Preface...I have respect for good rappers. 60 minutes did a segment on M&M years ago and it was real clear that he and people like him have a very real talent with words and a mind that can store them up and improvisationally flow them out in a coherent continuous stream on demand. Marco Rubio wishes he had that depth of talent.

But...When I used to take my songwriting hobby to studios, I found that the hardest people to get what I needed from were vocalists...so, to avoid the pain...I started learning to sing myself. I don't know what my range is but it is very limited. Working within those limitations and basically singing to pitch with a little bit of stylization has taken me years and is sadly still a hopelessly lacking work in progress.

Yet, I contend that I could have become proficient at talking to a meter after a one weekend seminar.

After a little practice and technique honing over a few months my life as a White rapper would all come down to natural timbre and having or not having the "it" factor. To that extent it seems a natural talent.

Admittedly, that's the view of an uncredentialed, unschooled (in music) , never paid his musical dues and don't intend to start....amateur hobbyist internet songwriting forum lurker. (though passionate smile ) But I think it's reasonably well founded and realistic.

Martin


You said you beg to differ, then went on to agree with my point basic point, singers are born with it and rapping is a combination of skill learned and practiced along with rhythm and tonality (and as you pointed out, the ability to put strings of thoughts together on the fly, though not all rapping is spur of the moment, some top rappers are better in the studio writing out the rhymes and then riffing off of them in live performances, but I do know many who can rap instantly on any subject. For that matter I know musicians who can do the same thing, one of the best in the world at that is a friend of mine who gets hired to do improv music all over the world on the topics and events of their choice, but that's another discussion). So I don't know what else to add. Singers with great range and perfect pitch are born with it, Opera singers being the most extreme examples. Rappers, who can benefit from natural ability as well, use learned and developed skills through practice and even someone without the same natural gifts as some can learn and practice and find success that way. The skill of improv thinking and word play isn't unique to any genre (or even music for that matter) so it's a bit of a different subject.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#1125826 - 03/25/17 10:05 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Trentb]  
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niteshift Online happy
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niteshift  Online Happy
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Musicians are story tellers. Songwriters are story tellers. Rappers are story tellers. And the good ones are all highly skilled in what they do.

Who is "more skilled" ? Not one over the other I would say. The apples and oranges quote best sums it up.

cheers, niteshift

#1125836 - Yesterday at 08:58 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Martin Lide Online content
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Martin Lide  Online Content
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[/quote] You said you beg to differ, then went on to agree with my point basic point, [/quote]




Ok....Please read "beg to differ" instead to say...."reinforcing what has already been stated"..... wink

Last edited by Martin Lide; Yesterday at 08:59 AM.
#1125837 - Yesterday at 11:51 AM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: niteshift]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Barry David Butler  Online Content
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Actually there is more protest lyrics than in Rock or Pop...

#1125843 - Yesterday at 06:46 PM Re: The Art Of Rap [Re: Martin Lide]  
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MidniteBob Online content
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
[/quote] You said you beg to differ, then went on to agree with my point basic point,



[/quote] ...Ok....Please read "beg to differ" instead to say...."reinforcing what has already been stated"..... wink
[/quote]

Okee-dokey....

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...Rumor has it that someone once said that....

And I'll take the time to S'plain why I used that quote...:-)

12 years of being in Catholic schools....As a "Catholic", The Virgin Mary was without sin....

From the Gospels, when the woman, caught in adultery,was brought before Jesus and they wanted his permission to stone her, he knelt down and drew something in the dirt.

Here comes the "Catholic" silliness that a priest shared with me...

Jesus looked up, after drawing something in the dirt, and said: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

A Big Ol' rock came from the crowd and conked the woman on the head, dropping her dead....

And Jesus said: Mom! I told you to stay home!"

Sorry, ya'll....40 years later, I still get a chuckle and a life-lesson outta that old Catholic joke that a priest...One of the good ones!!!...Told me....:-)

Midnite





Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html

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