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This article certainly gives credence to my anti-country rant.

http://theantimedia.org/how-popular-musics-lyrics-perpetuate-american-idiocy/


Write on, Man,
Michael W. Brown, f.k.a. "bluesriff"

"The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others."
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To be fair, here is an opinion that disputes the above findings.

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/05/pop-music-isnt-getting-dumber.html


Write on, Man,
Michael W. Brown, f.k.a. "bluesriff"

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Full disclosure... I haven't read any of these articles...

BUT... media is so desperate for CLICKS that they will do ANYTHING to get them including penning ridiculous pieces making any claim that will garner outrage, or agreement among the populace, the two things we like best. Anyone who agrees with us is a good read, and anyone saying something that offends us and allows us to get indignant is an even better read. It's like any argument on Facebook or elsewhere that pits the mob against an instigator. You simply need to know your audience. In politics, any positive statement about one side will be vilified and hated by the other while those on that side will defend it and they rarely let facts or common sense enter into the discussion to make a difference. Often BOTH sides are full of BS... That is our society. But when they go back in time and see how vicious politics were a century ago, they often find it was even worse than it is now. People are people and little has changed in centuries in terms of lies, opinions and statistics which are all the same things in the opposition's hands.

Folks, music was silly in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's and 10's. All the years of commercial music has had plenty of lightweight silliness and empty headed notions. There has also been deep introspective pieces with meaning that mostly are ignored by each era's listeners (and frankly many of those "deep" pieces are only DEEP to those who agree and complete BS to those who don't, just like Internet arguments or media arguments are today.

The cliche of the more things change the more they stay the same has never been truer. And older people always thing the youths of the next 2-3 generations are morons or uncivil or empty headed or simply don't get it. The truth is that all of us "don't get it" on most things, but do get a few things and we hang our hats on that tiny expertise and assume it carries over. The average 18 year old clerk at the counter knows vastly more about how and why their company does things than any of their customers do. That is why that insidious advertising/PR point that the Customer is Always Right is exactly the opposite of the truth... the customer rarely has the slightest clue... neither do the rest of us about 95% of the things in the world we aren't all that knowledgeable about.


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Agree 100%, Brian.....I just like starting s***!!!

Not really but I am a sucker for a good debate and as you are possibly aware, as far as sharing opinions here, I don't tap dance.
Don't fret though, not looking to fill Bugsy's shoes anytime soon.

Peace Brian!




Write on, Man,
Michael W. Brown, f.k.a. "bluesriff"

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Can a song be catchy enough to be a number 1 hit and also be intelligent?

What are some examples you all can think of?

What does an intelligent lyric consist of?

The article gave no hints about that.

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Intelligence would be in the ear of the listener, and not an absolute. For every silly song someone will say it really connected to them and for every deep song, others will say it's shallow drivel.

Frankly, as I have said zillions of times, few people beyond songwriters are attracted to a song because of the lyrics. It is mostly the music, the hook and the production/artist involved. Few people could write out the lyrics to their all time favorite song and actually know them all. Hell, most prolific songwriters can't recall most of their OWN lyrics, deep or not. I tried to recall all the words to some of my songs we performed hundreds of times live and rarely can I even remember them myself. But I know the music production and can play that in my head as if I had headphones on. (Often that is how I have to recall lyrics, start earlier in the song and play it in my head until the lyric comes around).

I find rough demos of songs I recorded into a cassette deck where I go.. "I do not remember ever doing that song... but I really like it..." I imagine I am not alone.


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I know all the words to at least two of my songs and at least 5 of my favourite songs. Usually I need to hear the start of a song and then bam I can sing a lot of the words. As long as people remember your chorus you did a good job. That's all anyone cares about when it comes to the words anyway right?

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A few years ago I found a stack of old yellowed papers that were the songs I wrote in High School. Couldn't remember a single one of them. The lyrics were terribly morose. But I do remember sitting in the stairwell and playing those songs there for the natural reverb.

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First off, there's more to commercial music than radio pop, just as there's more to movies than Transformers 5 or Abbott and Costello Meet the Wolfman back in the 50s. There has always been goofy radio pop that's catchy. The question is...where's the beef? A lot of people bought Sugar, Sugar back in the 60s but you could also buy Tommy, The Band, Band of Gypsies, Let It Bleed, In a Silent Way, Crosby, Stills and Nash, Joni, Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere, Abbey Road, Guilded Palace of Sin, Blind Faith, Santana, Live Dead, Stand! and others. That's just from one year...1969. From a list of records off the top of my head, most of which I didn't hear until the 80s. Dylan and the Doors didn't put out esp great records that year. Abbey Road isn't "deep" lyrically but side 2 is a wonderment of arranging, playing and harmony. Even so, virtually no one here could write Polythene Pam simply because of the meter and structure. Try it.

Those albums aren't being released today. Not even counting incredible singles like Suspicious Minds. I heard a Drake song, I cracked up it was so bad. No melody, a kiddie lyric with obscenities and an automated performance. I saw a highly praised video of a Grammy performance. It had no melody and the meter was really sloppy contributing to the weak tune. The lyric barely existed. As a whole, it could hardly be defined as a song. The singer had a strong voice and politically correct reputation and nothing else.

I'm sorry but the craft and talent is no longer there, lyrics or music. And the guy who says lyrics aren't important to a listener sitting down with a coffee to listen to a few hours of albums(not iPod playlists) can't write them. You can write them? Show me.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 05/23/15 08:26 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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the chorus is important but the verses aren't (to most listeners). People aren't screaming the verses or bridges from the top of their lungs. Verses are important to you and I and songwriters. People aren't scribbling verses on their binders at schools it's the chorus/hook. Tattoos aren't verses, tattoos are the hooks of their favourite songs. Our verses have to be very good to get a cut but it's funny how meaningless they often seem to be to everyone else

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If you look at the verses to the most epically known and loved songs too, are they all that memorable? Probably not. Does anyone remember the verses to sweet home alabama or suspicious minds or yesterday? Now do you remember the choruses? Probably. If not you know some of the chorus.

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sure there are lot of dumb lyrics in todays music as much as in yesterdays.All genres got that problem but all genres have some pretty cool smart lyrics,yes even rap.I'm glad to say i am one of those who definitely want to hear a good lyric in whatever the subject is.If it's gonna be a silly song,then i want a smart lyric for it,as i would a smart lyric from a prog band such as YES or ELP or RUSH.I think a lot of folks miss out on the good stuff in the verses waiting that cool hook.I listen for the first word to the last.I'll see a damn good hook someone has but not even getting through a dumb first sentence or two,i can't even make it the catchy chorus.I've also heard terrible music to real cool lyrics but actually hear that song out because of the words.Any way,i just wanted to say that I am a listener of the words.

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In popular genres such as hip hop, pop,blues, and rock the groove and hook are the hot buttons. Country music isn't as lyric driven as in once was. There used to be a lot interesting stories - but fewer now. Musicians who don't sing could care less about lyrics because they play. Go to an open mic and you'll find mostly musicians - and few actual writers. Most wanna do covers -ugh.
I get a different response from doing open mics than general audiences. Open mics are tougher crowds because it's mostly musicians who focus on the ability to play instruments - not the song. The general audience, when if hears something new and different, perks up, quiets down and actually listens to the lyrics. I hear people who walk by me when I return to a venue and mention to each other a song(the hook of a song) that they heard me perform. So good lyrics do get noticed - maybe not by the major labels.

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Forget words for the next few minutes and listen to Dave Grusin and his theme from Falling in Love the movie...Sometimes words just ruin a great melody....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRpHPZFy5pA

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Yeah, they are fishing for clicks with those terms in the headline. They are actually doing the same thing they critisize songwriters for.. appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Measuring reading levels for adults is just as ridiculous as writing bad lyrics. These articles are not enlightening at all, they are part of the same problem they address.

That said, lots of lyrics today are more about mocking other people than they are about imaginative poetics, so when I pull up a tune for pleasure, most of the time I go for smooth jazz instrumentals.. soothes me fine :-)

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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
First off, there's more to commercial music than radio pop, just as there's more to movies than Transformers 5 or Abbott and Costello Meet the Wolfman back in the 50s. There has always been goofy radio pop that's catchy. The question is...where's the beef? A lot of people bought Sugar, Sugar back in the 60s but you could also buy Tommy, The Band, Band of Gypsies, Let It Bleed, In a Silent Way, Crosby, Stills and Nash, Joni, Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere, Abbey Road, Guilded Palace of Sin, Blind Faith, Santana, Live Dead, Stand! and others. That's just from one year...1969. From a list of records off the top of my head, most of which I didn't hear until the 80s. Dylan and the Doors didn't put out esp great records that year. Abbey Road isn't "deep" lyrically but side 2 is a wonderment of arranging, playing and harmony. Even so, virtually no one here could write Polythene Pam simply because of the meter and structure. Try it.

Those albums aren't being released today. Not even counting incredible singles like Suspicious Minds. I heard a Drake song, I cracked up it was so bad. No melody, a kiddie lyric with obscenities and an automated performance. I saw a highly praised video of a Grammy performance. It had no melody and the meter was really sloppy contributing to the weak tune. The lyric barely existed. As a whole, it could hardly be defined as a song. The singer had a strong voice and politically correct reputation and nothing else.

I'm sorry but the craft and talent is no longer there, lyrics or music. And the guy who says lyrics aren't important to a listener sitting down with a coffee to listen to a few hours of albums(not iPod playlists) can't write them. You can write them? Show me.


Hi Couch,

Your posts always make me think.

I agree those are great albums, those 1969 gems you mention, and I'm sure they serve as inspirations for many contemporary artists. But I am not so sure that I am to take you literally when you say "those albums are not being made today"--I take you to mean that in your opinion there aren't any artists making the 2015 equivalent of those albums today? I mean you are not actually advocating a return to 1969 or anything, is what I'm getting at. And so if I understand you correctly, and if there's any truth to that, do you think it's because our culture--where we're at as a "people" etc. has taken a swerve toward the banal and classless? Or what, if not that?

I often think of Harold Bloom's groundbreaking essay "The Anxiety of Influence" in regard these talks. To quote a small bit from Wikepedia:

Bloom's central thesis is that poets are hindered in their creative process by the ambiguous relationship they necessarily maintained with precursor poets. While admitting the influence of extraliterary experience on every poet, he argues that "the poet in a poet" is inspired to write by reading another poet's poetry and will tend to produce work that is in danger of being derivative of existing poetry, and, therefore, weak.

His theory is really Freud as applied to art, at least in terms of the relationship between father and son, and I find it's all rather interesting. It seems to translate from "poets" to all artists in general. Especially as we progress through time and perceive along with many critics that the music of today is weaker.

And although those are great records, but as I've said elsewhere I think we tend to romanticize them a bit because of their placement in our own personal timelines. Music we hear in our teens and early twenties always seems to feel more important to a music lover, at least hierarchically speaking..we tend to think it's above the rest, I mean. And you can certainly understand how psychologically this could be true--that there is some influence on our thinking here--this is not to say that those older landmark recordings aren't landmarks for good reasons.

But although I can agree that there have been great albums that were made in past generations, I am not sure that measuring newer albums against the yardstick of these landmark albums is either fair, or a good way to understand the merit that is there in today's music.

Isn't part of what you are perceiving possibly due to the shift in the demographics of who's buying music in mass quantities?

Plus, you know as well as I that for the most part, albums until the advent of the CD tended to have much more filler, as the Corporates rushed to get the album out there with the hit singles. Now at least, albums feel deeper, on a cut-by-cut basis.

I find there's plenty of great music, and great lyric driven music still being made. It's just not climbing as high on Billboard, but it's there, I believe. I mean..I'll personalize this..there are hundreds of artists alive today that I listen to that can bring me to tears (Duke Special, Lisa Hannigan, John Gorka, David Olney, Tom Russell..to name a few) with their words and music, just very few are selling mass quantities. They're all making great albums, deep albums, very little filler--B U T none are "landmark" albums, and for the reason's Bloom states.

So many have already "staked out" landmark territory and planted their flags. When I hear music, for instance, that tries to be funky yet relevant (lyrically) today, I just have to get out "There's A Riot Goin' On" and "What's Goin' On"--but I bet if I dug a little bit, it's there...there's just so much music out there!!! It's just hard to be a musical archeologist all the time, though it's never been easier. 99% of all known music is available from where we sit. That's just a mind blowing thought, to me..it's like youtube is beginning to resemble that classic (and now somewhat prophetic) Robert Klein skit, "Every Record Ever Made" (We drive a truck to your house, LOL)

Peace, bro! smile
Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/25/15 08:55 PM.

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Michael, I didn't understand most of that quote, haha. Musicians and writers in the 60s were highly influenced by the 50s, (chuck berry, muddy, wolf...really all of Sun, Chess, Hank Williams, Elvis, The Everly Brothers and dozens of others) without producing inferior music. Dylan and others' roots even went back to the 20s and 30s as well as 19th century folk and blues. That's not even counting jazz and Tin Pan Alley pop which is far superior to anything being written today.

However, I think the 60s was the last great creative era of music. Decay has been evident ever since and it's only getting worse. There is virtually no sense of craftsmanship present in a Black Keys lyric. Zero. From what I saw and heard, anyway. Rap is absolute rubbish. And country...country is country and always will be. It was hopelessly cornball when I was 7, when I was 17, 27, 37 and now I'm 50. Hundreds of classic albums came out in the 60s and 70s. How many were country? And how many compare to Born to Run? None. Great songs come out of country...great albums? No.

Back in 1985 Bob Dylan was interviewed by Cameron Crowe for Biograph. He said the aspiring singer/songwriter would be better off disregarding anything modern at that time. All the more so now.

Someone applying what he's learned from songs 40, 50 or a 100 years ago will actually be viewed now as "fresh". But it would take dedication that verges on obsession coupled with talent to get there. All the mentors and workshops and checklists and critiques pooped out by NSAI and others won't do it. They'll only help you write a cheesy McLove song with ten other co-writers.

Listen to Barbra Streisand's Songbird and see if you hear a difference between that and Drake's latest diaper load. Aspire to Songbird...even if your songs turn out inferior to that, they'll still be superior to Dayum Girl.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 05/25/15 08:56 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Michael, I didn't understand most of that quote, haha. Musicians and writers in the 60s were highly influenced by the 50s, (chuck berry, muddy, wolf...really all of Sun, Chess, Hank Williams, Elvis, The Everly Brothers and dozens of others) without producing inferior music. Dylan and others' roots even went back to the 20s and 30s as well as 19th century folk and blues. That's not even counting jazz and Tin Pan Alley pop which is far superior to anything being written today.


Couch,

You got the gist of Bloom..that the preceding generation has a father-like relation to the next.

Though as you say, sixties artists were influenced by fifties artists but did little to establish what an album could be. That's why when we think of landmark albums, we focus mostly on the sixties.

I can live with your generalization about the sixties being the last great creative era of music.

Question. If you hear something new that is clearly derivative of some precursor, like Dylan or the Beatles, etc. do you generally tend to like or or dislike it? Do you tend to like new music with clear links to some of your favorite older artists? Or tend to think "he's copying so and so..can't he find his own voice, etc"....?

Curious to know, because I think part of the problem in how we relate to today's music is because of how we feel about yesterdays'.

As to great country records now..maybe not, but I think on a cut-to-cut basis they are overall stronger than before the CD era, for reasons stated. There were landmark albums in the sixties, but there was also a greater deal of albums with just one good song, and the rest filler, in my opinion.

"Born to Run" is kind of a landmark record. It takes it's precursors (Phil Spector, Bob Dylan, to name a couple) and creates something so unique and beautiful that it becomes that which all future albums in any way similar will be compared. And maybe that's good, but also..if I make a good record that gets dissed because of the too obvious influence of "Born to Run" --well this is part of the reason modern artists have such a tough time. We tend to not hear things on their own terms, because we have our heads full of what came before! Also--should we expect landmark albums like Born to Run to be dropping every day? Great records, landmark records set an unfair yardstick for newer artists, in my opinion. smile

Rap music may be rubbish to you, and I am honestly not trying to start something with you..you know I respect you..but please, at least admit it must certainly be meaningful to others, for whatever reasons those may be? We've all got reasons for liking and disliking what we do. We might not like somebody else's reasons for liking something, but can't we just leave it at that?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/25/15 09:36 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

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Mike, I just pulled Born to Run out of my hat. Physical Graffitti, Wish You Were Here, Blood on the Tracks, Northern Lights, Southern Cross, Tonight's the Night among other great albums came out in 75 as I recall. How many CDs came out this past year with a Kashmir on them? Zero. An Acadian Driftwood? Zero. When did Songs in the Key of Life come out. Right around then, I think.

Influence has no bearing on whether I'll like something. I only care if it's good. I've been disappointed in what little alt. country I've heard, not because it sounds like they're imitations of the Basement Tapes and Nebraska, but because they're bad imitations. They've got the low fi sound but not the songs. And there's nobody now who could imitate A Day In the Life. The skill is there, but not the talent.

I don't care why people like rap anymore than I care why they went to see Saw 5. It's garbage.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
I've been disappointed in what little alt. country I've heard, not because it sounds like they're imitations of the Basement Tapes and Nebraska, but because they're bad imitations.


Couch,

It certainly does sound, from what you say here, like The Basement Tapes and Nebraska have become for you a kind of yardstick with which you then hold up to, and use to measure the value of alt country artists.

And perhaps, Born to Run, the yardstick for epic song-poetry; Blue, the yardstick for any woman singing confessions with just a guitar, etc...

If daddy was the President, it's gonna be hard to measure up, you know?

It becomes rather suspicious when newer music NEVER ever ever ever is better than what came before, in any comparisons, under any circumstances.

I have a friend, and I'll sit down with him with a newer artist, all excited. "The Milk Carton Kids" was the most recent. He listens for 4 bars and says, "that's just Simon and Garfunkel with a really good guitar player" then shut down his brain and doesn't listen any more. It's now become a game I play with him, because you know, the score is old music 47, new music, zero..and so..I just feel bad for him..I mean, he doesn't even give the stuff a chance..it's almost as if he is threatened by it..

And my problem? I love too much new music, and just wish there were more open minded folks my age who listened to newer stuff, as well as the old. I steer away from "good" and "bad" comparisons, and much prefer "good" to "good" (non) comparisons. Simon and Garfunkel were good, but so are the Milk Carton Kids. The latter may not have produced a "Bridge Over Troubled Water" --but that's because we're the ones making that comparison, and expecting that of them. Maybe they just want to be who they are and see where that takes them?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/26/15 04:02 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
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Hi Michael,

Since I have somehow steered your thread off topic, I want to apologize, and throw my two cents in on your articles, in a halfway attempt to bring it back, a little.

Thanks for including the "rebuttle" article.

But the subject is too vast, and lyrics mean different things to different people, and it would seem that if we are creating a set of rules, based on what is most popular in our culture, then, the banal comparison is accurate.

The thing to keep in mind is that while demographics and charts may give us a broad overview, they certainly don't account for the whole of a culture's attitude towards the importance of words in music.

In folk and new folk, words still drive the song. When I write, I have a finished lyric in front of me, and the most important thing is that my music organically flesh out and give life to the lyric.

Same with listeners. Listeners of new folk tend to read a lot and seem to connect with the words first, then the music.

And that's certainly a small demographic. A minority of artists and listeners..but we are out there, and we have our influence on culture and music.

Perhaps the precursor of new folk is Dylan. Could you ever imagine Dylan writing music first, say, to "It's All Right, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)" LOL...humming that monotonous one-note melody to himself..Joan Baez, obviously bothered asks, "what the hell are you doing Bob?" He says, "I got this new tune, I just need the words"..LOL..

And so Dylan begat Prine and Kristofferson who begat Van Zandt and Springsteen who begat Gorka and Earle..and on and on..

Today's new folk scene is healthy, and we are word driven, word friendly, and being a little old fashioned may even say, "word" as a greeting, from time to time. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/26/15 10:09 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

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from the album "Casanova" (1996)
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Michael, I haven't heard of the Milk Carton Kids but if they haven't written a Bridge I suspect it's for the same reason no one else has, either(although I'm fairly proud of Where the Rainbow is the Gold), they're not good enough, not because of some Freudian blarney.

Born to Run isn't the standard for modern lyric poetry, Bringing It All Back Home, Highway 61 Revisited and Blonde on Blonde are.

I think Townes Van Zandt was putting out records before Kristofferson was. And I like Steve Earle's early stuff but he's not as good as either Townes or Bruce. I saw him awhile back on a talk show and his song had no melody whatsoever and was just some political preaching.

I stand by what I said...the 60s were the last great era for songwriting.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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I've come to the belief that yes, there really are just as many good songs and writers as there ever was, even in that incredible golden era of the late 60s-early 70s when so much variety and greatness presented itself. The difference is in the culture. Our culture is nothing like what it was back then. You can't make it operate as it did with a whole bunch of different people who don't behave the same way whatsoever, in a world that doesn't function the same way. The old machine no longer runs, so the world isn't being entertained by the same loosely-knit cabal of labels, studios, manufacturers and broadcasters. All those artists were only being funded to sell THINGS anyway...records, stereo systems, clothes, guitars, car radios, etc. Times change. But lets not pretend music used to be presented because of its value to the world...that was always just happy coincidence...the money was there because artists help sell products. Today, the world is oversaturated with the products artists were hired to sell.

Now that artists can really only be depended on to sell either tickets, a handful of CDs, or an ad campaign for a product, there are fewer of them getting signed, and less money being paid to them.

You only get to hear what's played. It doesn't mean great music isn't being written.

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I'll hold Luke Bryans song Drink A Beer up to any classics from the 60's 70's and 80s. That is a perfect country song and it was written just recently.

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it is not the perfect country and western song because it didn't say anything about trucks,prison,trains or momma!

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Quote
Michael, I haven't heard of the Milk Carton Kids but if they haven't written a Bridge I suspect it's for the same reason no one else has, either(although I'm fairly proud of Where the Rainbow is the Gold), they're not good enough, not because of some Freudian blarney.


Hi Couch,

Well, I partly agree with what you say.

I think there were some great albums made in prior decades.

But like Bloom suggests, if today's artists are aware of their heritage, and that there were landmark records made decades ago that they will never ever be able to come close to--well..don't you think that might be a little intimidating for that newer artist? They might try to opt out of that way of thinking altogether?

If an effort to produce something of beauty, in today's world, fails to surpass it's landmark precursors--but in the effort, creates something beautiful anyway, should it be dismissed simply because it does not surpass it's landmark precursor?

That seems like a pretty tall order for today's artist's. I would opt out of the "comparison game" completely, and if I couldn't, I'd try to forge some "unique ground" so that comparisons were only made by desperate critics--symbolically "killing the father" as it were (can't resist teasing you with some Freud grin ).

Mumford and Sons comes to mind as being a band that has found a unique "voice.". They are like Coldplay or U2? Only by a wild stretch of the imagination in my book.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/26/15 08:18 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
I've come to the belief that yes, there really are just as many good songs and writers as there ever was, even in that incredible golden era of the late 60s-early 70s when so much variety and greatness presented itself. The difference is in the culture. Our culture is nothing like what it was back then. You can't make it operate as it did with a whole bunch of different people who don't behave the same way whatsoever, in a world that doesn't function the same way. The old machine no longer runs, so the world isn't being entertained by the same loosely-knit cabal of labels, studios, manufacturers and broadcasters. All those artists were only being funded to sell THINGS anyway...records, stereo systems, clothes, guitars, car radios, etc. Times change. But lets not pretend music used to be presented because of its value to the world...that was always just happy coincidence...the money was there because artists help sell products. Today, the world is oversaturated with the products artists were hired to sell.

Now that artists can really only be depended on to sell either tickets, a handful of CDs, or an ad campaign for a product, there are fewer of them getting signed, and less money being paid to them.

You only get to hear what's played. It doesn't mean great music isn't being written.


Mark,

Thanks for articulating these ideas.

It can certainly feel like the music of earlier generations is "better" --and everyone is entitled to their opinion--but there are also a myriad of reasons why these feelings can present themselves, some psychological, some sociological as you point out. It can create a distorted view to think of landmark art divorced from the culture from which it came, as if it existed outside of time and space and was delivered to us from the void.

I enjoy feeling like a musical archeologist, finding great new music to enjoy.

The sad thing for me is that music used to be a communal thing. All through my twenties, thirties, even forties--music was played through speakers and listened to in groups of at least two.

Nowadays, it seems music is not a shared, communal experience, but mostly a private one, and this is good in some ways, but I'm sure it doesn't help one feel any great communal feelings.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/26/15 08:23 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
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from the album "Casanova" (1996)
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Mike, supposedly mum's new CD is a dud. I heard a few of their other songs and instrumentation was unique for modern music but the lyrics were extremely weak. They're just not in the big leagues song wise. To me anyway m


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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Michael, I saw that The Milk Carton Kids were on Conan last night so I recorded it. They were fantastic. There are some vintage records being re released this month with lots of bonus material but when I'm finished buying up those, I'll see about getting one of their CDs. smile


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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This was a riot to read. All the angles were covered...lol

Couchgrouch, you certainly got your convictions. I'd say your spot on abiut the 60's being the last great creative decade, early 70s maybe too.

Thats at least true from a 40+ perspective, I do t think you could find, even the best musicians and writers of today to say that emphatically.

I was reading one of your posts about meter, can't seem to find it now, but you mentioned meter being the cause of bad melodies today. And you mention Polytehen Pam here.

I agree it's much of what you said in this topic, but I disagree it's your stance on meter.

I'd be Willing to be Lennon did not consciously write Polythene Pam as a great metered conquest. I'm willing to bet that he had the grove for the song, and colored in the words after having his groove and melody. Making the meter, an after thought, it sounds like that to me when listening to it. The meter just looks like that on paper

Your crediting meter a bit too much. Especially when you consider that most of our enduring and time tested big songwriters of all time say that the vast majority of times, the music comes first.

Name any artist, aside Elton and Bernie, or Dylan, they will tell you the melody and music come first. And if it does, then meter is going along for the ride, as long as the melody and music is compelling the meter is just something you notice for good or bad when written on paper.

Just my thoughts, golly what a thread though...lol

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Gosh nothing has been creative since the good old days of barbershop quartets and the harmonicats!

This is the tired old argument of tired old people. There's amazing creative productions and amazing creative laziness throughout music, just like in every other era. The difference is more commercialism combined with more access by the masses. Both come with benefits and perils, but the reality is there were creative artists inside and outside the mainstream then (and that goes for any "then" you pick) and now. It's just that many, especially older, people rarely change their tastes in music, which is very natural, and so they think the good old days were better. Humans have changed as a species very little in 100 years, and views change generationally back and forth in the Western World since the USA was born and the cultural leader of the world since the dawn of commercialism in music and movies and other types of arts.

If you can make lots of money with little talent or effort, go for it. If you have amazing talent but it's in a genre few people love, it is just as lonely now as ever. An amazing classical player in an orchestra (minus about a dozen players worldwide) are as anonymous today as they ever were. Same with their music, which used to be bought, paid for and consumed by the rich or by themselves and in some ways, have changed little. The strolling minstrels reflected the voice and sound of the people often to great popularity, but were obscure to history and fame is only a construct of the past 150 years since sheet music became popular and a 100 years or so since radio and film.

I can go online and here music just as creative and interesting as anything in an other era and sites like Spotify make it all available to you for the cheapest amount ever . So instead of 100 artists getting millions of plays, now Millions gain fans but in far smaller numbers because there are so many choices. Great music finds audiences now better than ever before, but like it was 100 years ago, there's no money in it except for the handful of mega corporate owned stars and from there an ever decreasing amount of money and resources for an ever growing number of people with the tools and ability almost for free to make music and share it with the world. And those with talent who hustle the most, like all times in history, do the best.

Brian


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That's 100% right too. When people have conversations about music, it's usually the popular music of the time that they mention. I'm sure even at the time of the Beatles, there were indie bands who to this day have never been heard, but were great.
And the real innovators were the classics, I was just speaking of modern popular music.

I love Spotify. It used to be w dirty word because of music piracy and such, I have the free version. One thing that can't be denied, it is a lot better having Spotify today, then when I was growing up without it. You couldn't possibly buy all that music. You saved your pennies for the cream of the crop. You couldn't afford to buy music that you were wondering if it was good. You had to know it was your best stuff. Hey at 14 years old, you don't have 12 dollars to plunk down on just anything, you had to have heard it on the radio first, and then you find favorite bands and buy their stuff

What's great about Spotify, for the fan and the artist, is I can hear anything I ever wanted to hear, and stuff I never knew existed, and do it lightning fast. I can listen to a hundred songs that I have never heard today alone if I want to. And those artists can get an extra fan that they didn't have before today started. They don't pay the artists much which I don't like, but there are major pluses for using Spotify too

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American Idiocy? That is sad to put down an entire nation based off of pop culture.

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Be the change you want to hear.

Personally, I find that the current artist who is taking the world by storm and popularity right now is writing some really amazing songs that are not dumb. Then again, he's not American either. Regardless, not all of us that create pop music contribute to idiocy. I'd say its very few that do by percentage of the overall amount.

Boorish argument.


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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
Be the change you want to hear. Personally, I find that the current artists who is taking the world by storm and popularity right now is writing some really amazing songs that are not dumb. Then again, he's not American either. Regardless, not all of us that create pop music contribute to idiocy. I'd say its very few that do by percentage of the overall amount. Boorish argument.
It's hard and wrong to try and define a whole decade of music, or even a year of music, by the hits of the time. Even with the hit makers, there are some great ones too. And there is so much more music out there, beyond the scope of radio friendly pop music.

Who is your guy you mention? I always mention Willie Nile, this guy has been chugging along for decades, with some, but very light fame.

In my opinion his albums are as good as anybody, current or past. I'm such a fan, that when visiting his pledge music...kind of like Kickstarter, site, I nearly chose the option to donate money and be able to sit in the studio and watch he and the band record on of their new songs. Then I thought about it, and said, what am I 14? I can't be doing that, lol, there was also an option to have lunch with Willie for a certain donation. Same thought entered my mind. But very few artists blow my doors off, Willis is one https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3qKjUeGji78

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Ed Sheeran.


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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
Ed Sheeran.


From what I understand Ed Sheeran was a street musician at one time, you gotta give him respect just for that.

He seems to me like a very unlikely pop star, he looks like Opie on heroin.

As far as modern, radio artists, he's a great pop songwriter. Much better than Bieber.

He just doesn't do it for me, I guess I'm not in his demographic

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Wait, wasn't Idiocracy just a movie!? :-p

Sadly, "popular music" has devolved quite a bit if you mean $$$$.

However, I look at popular music as a genre not defined by dollars. I hear some excellent music with great lyrics every week on this site alone. There is good music out there, and it is not that hard to find.

Peace,
TC


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I am sorry but that is a horrible response. You dont negate serious studies by anecdotes.

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Frankly I think a lot of the songs I have heard on this site are not complicated enough lyrically to draw my interest. They seemed produced to sell, and I cant relate to lyrics that are bubble gum and dont make me think.

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Originally Posted by BlakeAllyn
I am sorry but that is a horrible response. You dont negate serious studies by anecdotes.


Originally Posted by BlakeAllyn
Frankly I think a lot of the songs I have heard on this site are not complicated enough lyrically to draw my interest. They seemed produced to sell, and I cant relate to lyrics that are bubble gum and dont make me think.



So let me get this straight. A pair of guys invent something called "lyric intelligence" out of thin air in a study that is subjective by its very nature, and, yet, my opinion is worthless because you deem it anecdotal? You need to climb down off of your high horse.

There are plenty of thoughtful lyrics in many of the songs posted here on JPF, and at large in the songwriting community. I can certainly find "bubble gum" lyrics in any era which represent some of the most popular songs of their time. This idea that songwriters are getting worse over time is a popular meme that is perpetuated by armchair critics like yourself. There is more music being created and published now than ever before of every style and fusion of styles imaginable. Looking at "225 Billboard songs" over a short period of time is NOT a serious study. It may be interesting but it is not representative of music at large.

Like I said before, all you have to do is open your mind and look around. There is some really good music out there if you do.

Peace,
TC


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The study was studying pop music. I had no problems with its methodology.

I agree with you, there is plenty of great music out there. But it can no longer become popular because the mechanisms in place that filter garbage music to us on a grand scale are interested in quick dollars and not longevity.

30 years from now nobody will listen to Justin Bieber. 30 years from now, we will still hear the supremes.

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Originally Posted by AaronAuthier
If you look at the verses to the most epically known and loved songs too, are they all that memorable? Probably not. Does anyone remember the verses to sweet home alabama or suspicious minds or yesterday? Now do you remember the choruses? Probably. If not you know some of the chorus.

Is there a chorus to "Yesterday"?
The meat of "Sweet Home Alabama" is in the verses. You must not be from down south.

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Originally Posted by Michael W. Brown
This article certainly gives credence to my anti-country rant.

http://theantimedia.org/how-popular-musics-lyrics-perpetuate-american-idiocy/


Despite all the bubble gum, a few good songs do emerge and become somewhat popular. I remember Snow Patrol's "Chasing Cars', which I thought was a very moving song.


Last edited by pathardy; 03/27/17 01:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kurt Fortmeyer
Originally Posted by AaronAuthier
If you look at the verses to the most epically known and loved songs too, are they all that memorable? Probably not. Does anyone remember the verses to sweet home alabama or suspicious minds or yesterday? Now do you remember the choruses? Probably. If not you know some of the chorus.

Is there a chorus to "Yesterday"?
The meat of "Sweet Home Alabama" is in the verses. You must not be from down south.


Yesterday has a classic "bridge".

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Originally Posted by BlakeAllyn
The study was studying pop music. I had no problems with its methodology.

I agree with you, there is plenty of great music out there. But it can no longer become popular because the mechanisms in place that filter garbage music to us on a grand scale are interested in quick dollars and not longevity.

30 years from now nobody will listen to Justin Bieber. 30 years from now, we will still hear the supremes.


Well, I think Bieber may be a bad example. He does nothing for me, but he shouldn't. His music belongs to younger people as each generation reinvents their version of the age old wheel. Bieber had clear cut real talent when he was young and was the first youtube success with staying power. I don't think he's nearly as talented, but he's very much the the vein of Justin Timberlake who is much older but came from an even more hyper bubblegum pop start. Both have stick in their age group and Timberlake is probably the most talented artist of his generation and Bieber picked up a similar mantle. There's plenty of forgettable pop fluff artists already long forgotten. There was a tine when MJ and Prince were viewed by older generation in those eras as pop fluff. I think Prince is the superior talent because he didn't get the hyper jump start of the best outside writers producers and industry hype people that MJ had his whole life, but both have transcended the heights of being pop stars and entered the cannon of music for generations to come. Timberlake is almost a modern day Fred Astaire meets Pat Boone/Bing Ctosby on steroids, a triple threat and beyond and though Bieber may not live up to his standard because he's not an actor (at least not yet) he's a new creature for an era unlike any before, the internet age. Sort of like the first stars of recorded music.

That's my take on him anyway. He seems to be among the top of his peer group.

Brian


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He is in my generation. And other then girls swooning over him he has no staying power. I guess time will tell!

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He's already had more staying power than most artist of the past decade. If he never does another thing he's pretty much done enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Bieber

Last edited by Brian Austin Whitney; 03/28/17 03:12 PM.

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