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Hi! I've been writing songs for a long time and I am starting to write more. I write lyrics and music. I love music but I also love the challenge of trying to craft commercial songs.

Good, meaningful, musically satisfying songs are so often extremely different than commercial hits. So I appreciate the artistic side of creativity, but I also appreciate the craft of attempting to write commercially viable songs.

Making music for the sake of art is great. I have written loads of songs like that in many genres. However, now I am focusing on commercial country songwriting. There is a really appealing challenge to crafting lyrics in that style.

Thankfully, I love country music; from traditional to alternative to commercial. The challenge of crafting clever lyrics and hooks is exciting! In my opinion it adds a really satisfying element to songwriting; with a focus on something that otherwise may not be so artistic!

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Toby, I don't know where you are but if you're serious about writing commercial country music, pack up and move to Nashville. Hang out at the Bluebird Cafe and get to know publishers and hit writers. If you're good, you may be offered a publishing deal.

Jim Colyer

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Thanks Jim - I'm in Illinois right now. I lived in Nashville area for many years (Nashville, La Vergne, the 'Boro) but I worked in another carreer field so music was limited. Once I start getting some feedback from various sources regarding my demos I have, and more that are in the works, then I could see moving back down there.

Thanks for the info!

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Toby,

Marc Barnette is a member here who can offer you a ton of advice (and if you look him up on the search, you'll see many of his posts which will be informative. If you have specific questions, fire away!

Brian


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Hi Brian thanks for the info. I have read several of his posts and articles; he has an amazing depth of knowledge. I've been focusing time on getting some demos together, but I hope to start to focus on learning more specifics from so many great sources!

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Originally Posted by Toby Barns
Thanks Jim - I'm in Illinois right now. I lived in Nashville area for many years (Nashville, La Vergne, the 'Boro) but I worked in another carreer field so music was limited. Once I start getting some feedback from various sources regarding my demos I have, and more that are in the works, then I could see moving back down there.

Thanks for the info!


Hope you make it back!

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Welcome, Toby!!! Glad you found us!

Can you post some of your demos in the JPF "MP3 Forum"?

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Hi Toby:

Glad you found us. You've picked a "tough nut to crack" in writing "Country songs"... no matter the sub-genre. I also worked in Nashville many years ago but it had nothing to do with music. Many here will tell you the importance of living in Twang Town but I'm not convinced. Eventually, only you can make a decision of that magnitude. A great deal depends on your current commitments, marriage, kids, family, job, friends... you get my drift.

Midnite suggested a great place to start if you would care to post a few of your songs on the MP3 forum. (Don't forget to find a way to share the lyrics so we can pretend we are A&R minions working at a big label... LOL!)

Navigating the site will take some time but you will eventually most likely migrate to the General and MP3 forums... possibly the Songwriting forum. All are informative and some are downright hilarious. It pays to keep your "sense of humor" at the ready... and to learn to ignore most of the newbies.

Looking forward to reading your posts and hearing some of your work. It pays to listen to the works of others for a while and to do that more than tacking up your own songs on a ratio of about five to one. All of us (well most) are busy writing, recording, editing, pitching... bitching too, and thus have limited time to hear all the songs being posted 24/7 here at JPF.

Again, "Welcome!" Don't be shy. Just dive right in and make yourself at home

Best wishes for success in an over-crowded market.

----Dave

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Hey Midnite!

I have posted a demo a few days back called "My Girl and Country Music" #1124632 and in response to your kind suggestion, I just posted another demo called "Her Not So Secret Weapons" #1124709 so feel free to give 'em a listen.

Let me know if you like them, or thumbs-down or whatever. I like any feedback!

These two demos are me attempting to craft mainstream (or not), Country music songs.

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Hi Dave!

I hear you on the competition factor for Country songwriting!

I have been writing music and lyrics for so long that I have loads of genres I have created songs in. I decided that if I want to get anywhere with these demos I keep making, I would be best served to focus on one genre.

Otherwise I would be all over the place, which is cool, but I am just really into the challenge of the "clever" Country lyric style.

I love country music though, so that helps. I am completely addicted to Telecasters. My idea of taking a break from anything is to pick up a guitar!

Several of my song demos are on my website TobyBarns.com which is a very basic, easy-to-navigate, un-cluttered website. I use simple lyric videos which makes it easy to listen to the song and follow the lyrics. A&R folks are certainly VERY welcome to check out my website!

So that is where anyone can hear my lyric video song demos. I mention my website because I don’t want to over-post too many of my works here at JPF.

But I have a couple posted in the MP3 board now. Right now I have a couple of new songs that are driving me crazy trying to get them together so, maybe I need to meditate or something...

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Hi, I think I heard my name mentioned. Usually you have to say it three times and I'll show up. Like BeetleJuice.

Hello Toby, glad to meet you. Glad you made it over, some really great people here and Brian keeps it covering a lot of ground.

Nashville and country music is a pretty interesting thing to do and very close to my heart. Have been here nearly thirty years and have had the time of my life. I basically try my best to point people in the right direction as best I can. So if you do ask some specific questions, I'll do my best to fill in some blanks.

On the entire subject of writing for the country market, Nashville is a very much co-writing town and you are known by the company you keep. So building and maintaining relationships are the key. It is never who YOU know, but who knows YOU and how they know you. It takes a long time to get known, to get respected and to have people willing to listen to what you have. A lot of people also have the same idea so a lot is standing in line.

With all due respect to Jim, who I do admire, moving to Nashville and hanging out at the Bluebird is sort of the LAST thing I would do. First of all, every show sells out within five minutes on Monday morning and the lines waiting for someone NOT to show up are pretty insane. They start lining up at 12 noon to get in the doors for a show at 6:30 so unless you want to just stand in line all day to try to see someone else, that would pretty much be a dead end. As far as publishers giving out record deals, at one time, that was a way to say you'd arrived and publishers might be interested to show up, but now you have to write your way into the back doors long before they are going to be interested enough to come see you anywhere. They are all waiting for you to impress the friends they know, long before they are interested in doing anything.

And publishing deals have changed dramatically with the coming of the Internet. Songs have all but lost their value so being able to recoup on songs themselves have reduced radically. Publishers are looking more for younger artists with potential for record deals, because artist branding is essential in today's market. Songs are part of that, but only a part. Now, most people don't actually get a publishing deal until they have a lot of activity going on so they represent a more distinct investment of time and money from a publisher, producer, label, etc. There are many who don't even get a deal until AFTER they have some cuts.

Having said that about the Bluebird, there are many writers nights that are the first step on the ladder. Being around, building relationships are all essential and those are done by attending writers nights, and getting to know people. That is PLEDGING THE FRATERNITY.

On "packing up and moving" to Nashville, that is actually the last thing I would do. I would first make trips. Meet people. Renew those relationships you made years ago. There is an old saying, "Must Be Present to win". but now I feel that has been replaced by "Must have a PRESENCE to win." Having multiple songs written with artists, other co-writers, people who are active on the scene, provide the back doors and street credibility you are going to need to advance.

Purusing your local area is very important. Don't overlook people around you. Some who are making trips to Nashville, LA, New York and participate in various events, contests, etc. Someone who might be the next finalist on THE VOICE or AMERICA'S GOT TALENT, might just be playing in some club near you. And if you want the cuts tomorrow, you need to be working on writing them with the artists of tomorrow, today. Brian has a ton of stories of people that used to be involved over here through contests, events, or the boards, who have gone on to be very successful. In fact, I heard about this place to begin with from hit writers and artists who were involved with it. So staying involved here, meeting people, interacting and possibly writing with people on these forums are another good way to "extend your reach." You sort of have to do everything you can.

ACTIVITY=PROXIMATY=OPPORTUNITIES. The more you do something, the more you are around others, the more you are proactive in working with others, the better off you are going to be. Ultimately, things may take you on course to possibly move or even just being more involved. Your cataloge will serve you well. It is always your calling card. You always build on it and always work to increase it. But to succeed, you need to be on a constant search for partners. We are all trying to hitch our wagon to someone else. And so are they. Just make sure your wagon is worth being hitched to.

Now, totally different from the business side, I promote Nashville as ways to learn, share and develop the craft. And that is what is most important. Focus on that and write for yourself as well as others, constantly make friends and touch people's lives. If you do that consistently you will find yourself in a much better place. Might not be the top of the charts but it is a really great place to be. Good luck.

MAB

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Marc, I read what you wrote, and it all makes sense. You are more involved in the Nashville music scene than I am. Basically, I spend my time in the Vanderbilt libraries and in karaoke bars. I got hooked on karaoke 20 years ago and still enjoy singing the songs of my youth. It is also my social life. I did writers nights for a while but never liked them. I have not given up. I have over a hundred songs on youtube now and want to hook up with Warner/Chappell if it can be done. I have their New York, L.A. and Nashville office numbers in my phone and just have to get up the energy to start making calls. Maybe when warm weather sets in!

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Hi Mark - nice to meet you too.

I really appreciate the way you share your genuine, straightforward knowledge and information.

As far as up and moving to Nashville, for me personally, I have been there done that. I had work in another field. Like you say, making trips there is a logical alternative.

Going the route of the Bluebird for instance, the extreme competition is way beyond what I personally would be comfortable or capable of dealing with.

I think what you mentioned about networking locally, wherever a person happens to live, is excellent information. As far as having a presence, well that is one good aspect of the Internet because it obviously expands beyond local, geographical limitations.

I just recently started putting songs from my catalog up online. And you said it exactly the way that I refer to it which is that a song catalog is a calling card. It is an electronic way of handing someone a business card. It is a place where anyone can listen to the songs, go for whatever ride that the lyrics take them on, enjoy the music or not enjoy the music, and to see how a person writes songs.

Writing songs, for me, is ultimately probably THERAPEUTIC because I have music and songs occurring naturally within me. It is probably why I started playing a musical instrument when I was a kid. I was drawn to writing songs. I took a few guitar lessons as a kid. The instructor would teach me a chord and instead of moving on to another chord, I would take the one chord and go write songs. Let melodies happen over the chord, jot down lyrics. I know that drove the instructor crazy. But eventually I would go on to learn another chord.

So over the years, people grow as songwriters and understand things like song structure, verse build-up, lyrical hooks, weaving melodies in and around chords and loads of other intricacies that go into writing songs. We write and accumulate completed songs and uncompleted songs.

I consider Nashville Country music (or Bakersfield with a nod to a historical perspective), to be about the lyrical hook. This kind of music does not branch off into the exploratory realms of say rock music of the sixties and seventies.

Just from my perspective it is the clever lyrical hook that makes so many great country songs. I find that to be challenging so I get into writing songs with that as a goal. Not all songs, or music, that I write though. I am just as happy listening to "Dark Side of the Moon" as I am listening to country music from the fifties through the eighties. Then I think commercial country music, for the most part, aside from the clever lyrics, started getting further away from "Country" music. So what I observe is that all that is really left, from the commercial perspective, is the clever lyrical hook.

So only time will tell. I am not looking to move to Nashville to chase something that we all know is a "tough-nut-to crack" as mentioned. It is not in me to be at the forefront of competition. That is best for singer-songwriters or artists who have great drive and do aggressively pursue success through activities such as waiting inline all day for a slight possibility to perform a couple of songs. Hey, I wish all the best for everyone.

I am much more comfortable being in the background, being creative, writing music and lyrics that satisfy me from a creative perspective, or, from a challenging perspective.

Maybe someone will want to cut some of my songs. Maybe a real publishing company will see something in what I have to offer as a developing songwriter. Maybe all that will happen is that I keep working on the craft of songwriting, and adding to my electronic business card.

I like writing and playing music. I respect the fact that it takes time and effort to develop new friendships. I would be open to co-writing with serious writers or artists. I am on a Country music kick right now, but I am always into songwriting. And, I would love to write music that touches people's lives.

Thank you again for the info you share. I wish I would have known about you when I did live in Music City!

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I misspelled Mark - I meant Marc! Sorry!!

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Toby,

Not a problem. I misspell it too. Have had to change the spelling a few times simply because there were several others who had the same name. Another occupational hazzard around here. Sounds like you have a pretty good appreciation of reality. Whenever I hear those words "I'd really like to ....fill in the blanks...(find a publisher, pitch songs, get my songs OUT THERE) I usually like to step up and say "Hang on just a minute, there is a lot more to it than that..." because a lot of times, people don't find that out until they have spent A LOT OF MONEY and gone down a lot of dead ends. The attrition rate of music is pretty high. Most people drop out pretty quickly as reality sinks in, for some it takes longer, but it does wear people out. If you don't want to be in a highly competitive, ego driven, many more downs than ups business, the music business is probably not your place, becuase it is ALL THAT.

But if you are interesting in making friends for life, sharing a great hobby, that sometimes can turn into a profession, being around like minded people, and of course, the THERAPUTIC VALUE, there is nothing like it. Keep your eyes and ears open, and you will generally be fine.

The biggest eye opener when most people start looking at this town is that everything is about relationships. And that comes through CO-WRITING. So actually moving up the ladder, in any direction is about who you are writing with and who KNOWS THEM. One set of coattails to another. So the writing of the song is about 15% of it. The rest is networking, working with others, and relationships. The majority of people are simply not interested in doing that, so that pretty much weeds them out as well.

I do hope you come down, look around, meet some people, and hang. But do understand it from the "OTHER SIDE of the desk."

When you talk about the "REAL PUBLISHER" that is the real nut to crack. If you are not an artist with a shot at a record deal, or ATTACHED TO an artist with a shot at a record deal, it's a pretty long shot. As one "real publisher" (someone from a major company did a workshop a few weeks ago) he said "Look, I only have so much investment money. Most songs earn nothing. Who am I going to invest in. A writer or song with no advocate, or a writer/artist that has a shot at a record deal?" Really no choice.

Bring your songs. Bring your energy. But find other people, mostly artists. And write a lot with others. That will serve you the best.


Jim, I always wonder am I going to have to come to your house, kidnap you and FORCE you to come to some of these things. Hell, I'm playing two blocks from you tonight, at the COMMODORE at 8:30. Come on out, would love to meet you. You can walk to it. At some point you have to get out of the living room.

MAB

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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette


1. They are all waiting for you to impress the friends they know, long before they are interested in doing anything.

Brian: FACT

2. Songs have all but lost their value so being able to recoup on songs themselves have reduced radically.

Brian: FACT

3. Publishers are looking more for younger artists with potential for record deals, because artist branding is essential in today's market.

Brian: Old news, always has been this way but also FACT

4. Now, most people don't actually get a publishing deal until they have a lot of activity going on so they represent a more distinct investment of time and money from a publisher, producer, label, etc.

Brian: Also been that way for a while now. FACT

5. Having said that about the Bluebird, there are many writers nights that are the first step on the ladder. Being around, building relationships are all essential and those are done by attending writers nights, and getting to know people. That is PLEDGING THE FRATERNITY.

Brian: FACT, and not just in Nashville, but in any professional activity you must do these things in whatever format that field uses as their Bluebird.

6. On "packing up and moving" to Nashville, that is actually the last thing I would do. I would first make trips. Meet people. Renew those relationships you made years ago. There is an old saying, "Must Be Present to win". but now I feel that has been replaced by "Must have a PRESENCE to win." Having multiple songs written with artists, other co-writers, people who are active on the scene, provide the back doors and street credibility you are going to need to advance.

Brian: FACT This is SOOOOO important and for every success story of people who moved to Nashville because of the high most get on their first trip or two, nearly all of them live to regret it. Either they aren't ready, aren't talented enough, aren't willing or able to work hard enough, or simply aren't endless patient to stand in line until you get to the front. NEVER move somewhere without a job and you don't have a job in Music yet. Build up to it.

Brian: 7. Perusing your local area is very important. Don't overlook people around you. Some who are making trips to Nashville, LA, New York and participate in various events, contests, etc. Someone who might be the next finalist on THE VOICE or AMERICA'S GOT TALENT, might just be playing in some club near you. And if you want the cuts tomorrow, you need to be working on writing them with the artists of tomorrow, today. If you can't make it at home, you won't make it in Nashville or anywhere else. You need to learn and practice your people skills before you go to Nashville where people skills are as important as talent (if they don't like you, they won't ever work with you unless you're so important they have no choice and even then they will stop working with you the moment they can). Once you have conquered your local region with contacts and skills and talent, then you might be entry level qualified to go to Nashville.

8. Brian has a ton of stories of people that used to be involved over here through contests, events, or the boards, who have gone on to be very successful. In fact, I heard about this place to begin with from hit writers and artists who were involved with it. So staying involved here, meeting people, interacting and possibly writing with people on these forums are another good way to "extend your reach." You sort of have to do everything you can.

Brian: FACT We are one affordable (free) option to combine with all the others, and I appreciate the endorsement Marc.

9. ACTIVITY=PROXIMITY=OPPORTUNITIES. The more you do something, the more you are around others, the more you are proactive in working with others, the better off you are going to be. Ultimately, things may take you on course to possibly move or even just being more involved. Your catalog will serve you well. It is always your calling card. You always build on it and always work to increase it. But to succeed, you need to be on a constant search for partners.

Brian: FACT Action breeds more actions. And you really can go from 0 to 100 surprisingly fast if you are ALWAYS in motion forward and productively. I would add

PERSISTENCE+TALENT+PROXIMITY=LUCK

10. We are all trying to hitch our wagon to someone else. And so are they. Just make sure your wagon is worth being hitched to.

Brian: I could have said it better myself (because I have actually said that many times before! heh).


MAB


Marc, I turned your comments into bullet points with comments. 10 great points (well, 9 great points and one nice plug, which I appreciate!)


Brian Austin Whitney
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jpfolkspro@gmail.com
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney

"Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
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I knew Marc's post was some SERIOUS, read it slowly, then read it again and again information. That is what I did. Sometimes, such as in this instance, a post on a forum is worthy of bullet-points.

I would just like to thank you Brian, Marc and others who are the huge contributors to this songwriting resource. The web is full of everything from great, real information all the way down to re-hashed, empty and flat wrong information. I usually can tell the difference because I study things, crosscheck etc. Not just about songwriting, but any subject I want to actually learn about.

Marc's information is GENUINE and I sincerely meant that. And Brian as you point out this site is FREE. I am extremely familiar, from real experience, with webmaster work (everything from the code to the server configurations), Internet marketing and tech stuff that goes way deeper than that. The reason I mention that is because cool, high quality sources like JPF are not always free. I will point out also that you don't even have the typical annoying, intrusive advertisements plastered all over the place like so many sites do. I can appreciate that, it is a bit of a rarity.

As far as anyone considering moving to Nashville for musical aspirations, I will share an observation that I became aware of. There are many, many people who are artist managers, promoters and other specialties who you will meet. And you will realize that, wait a minute, why are these artist managers or "biz" people working at some other job, that probably does not pay very well and is completely unrelated to the music industry?

Now that is reality. I immediately am impressed with someone like Marc who has made it work, in Nashville, at many levels. To survive in a major industry city for thirty years I think you said, is amazing. That is really amazing.

I think that I became aware of JPF through one of the articles Marc had written on another website. I visited JPF, appreciated the un-cluttered, unobtrusive experience of the site. Saw that it was a nicely active site, with fresh posts, and people really getting into discussions about something that I have been deeply into which is songwriting.

On songs loosing their value, I may for instance put time and money into equipment or session expenses and I may do it with the expectation of NOT getting an ROI that even recoups the initial expenses. And I am just talking about demos!

Honestly, a stair step, one step at a time, is having the songs happen (inspiration of any kind) and working to craft the ideas into something tangible. Not just something that is in your head, but making it into something that others can hear too. Then, with zero expectations of getting an ROI, dealing with the next steps which are going to involve, in one way or another, the marketing and promoting and pitching.

I say zero expectations because it will make the reality of not having things turn out the way you want much easier to deal with. With that in mind, DO have lots of drive, ambition, energy, tenacity, discipline and fun!

I like to approach songwriting with the expectation that the true VALUE of the song may be in the therapeutic process of doing something creative, not in the expectation that I am creating something that is going to number-one-with-a-bullet. Also, songwriting should be gratifying and that includes the challenges of working to create something with mass-appeal. Ultimately that can be one of the things to aim for while you work on the craft.

The focus on music and creativity can really get lost in the busy struggles and competitive requirements among creators. We all, to some degree want to jump up and say "listen to me" you know?

However, it is a business; everyone needs to be able to pay their bills. For your songs to make money you have to work it from lots of different angles. This means small income streams from various sources. Sometimes people actually get lucky breaks. That still does not mean that they will get a huge payday.

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Hi guys, Thanks Tony and Brian.

My life has been very interesting. I started in one genre of music in the early 70's, in a different state, genre of music, and did fine for about ten years, although never having that "golden ticket." I learned what worked and what didn't. And when the music industry I was in changed, I changed. Didn't want to, just one of the things that happened.

I re-geared my approach and went for a different market only after meeting people that helped guide me to that market. I have been very fortunate in my life, in being one of those guys a lot of people wanted to "hitch their wagon to." And even though thousands of doors opened, then many close, you once again realize how little you actually have to do with this. I've always been invited to be around hit writers, artists, publishers, producers, label people, have been invited into "private meetings" and heard information and seen things that I probably shouldn't have and a lot of time wish I hadn't, but it all serves to educate you. People passed it on to me, and I do the same. I've had to "reinvent myself dozens of time in my focus, but at the end of it, I get paid to do what I love and help other people along the way.

I am a believer in the sense of community. That is what we have in Nashville, and I try to pass that on as much as I can. My role in life is as a participant in the industry, but more of a teacher/instructor/mentor capacity. It is the best thing I have ever done. And when you find places or pockets of sanity in a totally insane, no common sense industry, I am always trying to say "I've got your back", And on a more realistic side, I'm sort of like a guy sitting there on the side of a cliff, watching one person after another simply walk off into oblivion. They waste time, money, effort, have dreams and goals smashed and end up devastated.

So, there are people who stop for a second, open up a conversation, want to actually BELONG to a community, and can actually do things for OTHER people. For those people, I like to say, "Hey, don't step there, step over HERE. The fall is not quite as fatal."
And when you see people who SUPPORT others without really asking for anything, such as Brian here, who has run one hell of a site, ( I like you Toby, have seen a LOT come and go) it's pretty amazing that he keeps it running and free. I sure hope to meet that guy face to face one day.

I feel like if people take the time to participate, SAY SOMETHING, help others and be decent people, why NOT help them out? A lot of things I say, are nothing new. We just need to be reminded. And with brand new people coming and going all the time, it is always someone's opening night and first time to hear it.

So Toby, I appreciate the comments. I hope if you get down this way, you'll pop up where I play or let me know where you are. Always glad to meet a Just Plain Folker in person. And here, I'm always around, always checking out what people say, and will contribute when I'm asked, stay out of the way when not needed.

Take care and thanks,

MAB

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Humm,
I think I heard someone once say, everyone in Nashville is a Songwriter. Most of em are
working at a day job. News Flash. Don't give up your day job. Or do like Mel Tillis did, he
Learned Webb Pierce was going to cut one of his songs, and he quit picking strawberries
down in Pokie, Fla or whatever the town was called and moved to Nashville. Dammit Marc,
Webb is dead. A Webb only comes along once in a lifetime so, don't give up your Day Job!


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Ray, it's even more interesting than that. You may have heard me tell this story before, so skip it if you want. but this is for Toby and some new people that might be reading.

As I said, one of the interesting thing about my life and career is I was invited into many "inner circle" very early in my career. People with huge hits with George Jones, Alan Jackson, Reba McEntire, Buck Owens, Crystal Gayle, Garth Brooks, and even those back in the days of Roy Acuff, Tex Ritter, Hank Williams Jr. and Sr. and many. many more, all seemed to take shines to me. Some were musicians, producers, managers, labels, etc. but a lot were writers. I even went to the Country music hall of fame once and saw this big wall with album covers of the top 100 albums of the past 30 years. I found I had a personal connection with people on over half of them. I've written songs with over 50 writers that had number one's, top tens, or Grammy and Hall of Fame songwriters. And not just country, but also pop, rock, folk, Gospel, Jazz, blues and about everything in between. Sometimes I feel like I have met about every one there is, and worked with most of them. All by being invited. Don't quite know why, but just happened. I've seen it from all sides.

But one of the most eye opening things happened very early on. I realized that almost NO ONE had income soley from songwriting and in many cases even music. I can't tell you how many times I've had a songwriting session stopped due to the other writer, the one with multiple hits, awards, gold and platinum records on their walls, and they had to go show an apartment or house for their property management business. Having to pick up and deliver electrical or plumbing suppllies for their general contracting business. One guy was working on the toilet in my townhouse for his plumbing business, WHILE he had his third Tim McGraw hit on the radio.
The other guy that was a writer on that same song, was driving a delivery route every night back and forth to Knoxville, delivering medical supplies WHILE HE HAD THREE SONGS ON THE RADIO.

You start to see this over and over and figure it out. Many people get cuts on songs they wrote years before and went through multiple publishing deals. They owe tons of money by the time they actually get paid. They have put money into investments that tanked. Some get into multiple music related businesses and some of those fail. And of course, the money doesn't go on forever. Some, like my writing partner and buddy, Jim Peterek, will pop up with another cover version of EYE OF THE TIGER in a television or Major movie, but he still also produces, plays with his band IDES OF MARCH on reunion tours, and his other band SURVIVOR.

I attended a workshop/lecture from one of my former drummers last night. He has won two Grammys, is a a huge blues producer, plays drums in multiple bands, fronts his own band, and has had hundreds of cuts and a few number one's as a writer and STILL has to juggle, hustle on dozens of different things all the time.

That is how it is for all of us. Sure, it would be great to quit your day job. But almost no one ever does. If you have a skill, you always keep that. People that own businesses, never completely give them up. Some subcontract out, but are still as involved running their businesses just like their music businesses.

So you never QUIT YOUR DAY JOB. You just adapt your SECOND JOB into your DAY JOB, and then sometimes you go BACK to your DAY JOB after your run is done. Which it always is.

MAB

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Hey Marc that is a great story with a lot of great, specific examples. I would say that you are naturally what they call a "people person" since you have been invited into so many scenarios involving inner circle, successful professionals. That is a gift that not everyone has.

There are also other gifts (I use the word gift meaning talent or ability), like being able to recognize opportunities or to make things happen over time with committed effort. This applies to any business, or skill, or project or investment. Life is full of successes and failures and everything in-between.

Artistic creativity is yet another gift that probably many more people tend to have. For instance people who are not as outgoing, or are more introverted may have great abilities in creative writing, or painting or making music in some fashion.

The amazing experience of creating something whether it is a song, or anything artistic, can be incredibly gratifying. Then there is the reality of whether those creations are going to produce any kind of income. Thinking beyond a hobby.

The art becomes a product and products need to be marketed. Is the product marketable? Can the person recognize opportunity? Can they make things happen?

Living in an industry city obviously provides many more opportunities, yet people can still be successful with their gifts in even the smallest of towns!

Anyway, great story! Your examples of people having multiple high-charting radio cuts, platinum records, etc. and how it does not forever solve the financial side of things is a real reality-check. Actually it is also kind of sad in a way.

Advances that need paid back, short period of time on the charts, less royalties than ever, downloads and piracy, not so great publishing or record deals are all things that are likely drivers in that over the years.

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Toby,

All very true. The best comparison I have on music is the sport of GOLF. There are millions upon millions upon millions worldwide that play golf. In Japan they build three and four tiered driving ranges to fit all the people in and they go 24 hours a day sometimes. Very few areas don't have multiple golf courses. There is a multi-multi BILLION dollar industry in clubs, clothes, vacations, instruction, magazines, television shows, entertainment channels, and others devoted to the lovers of that sport.

The vast, vast, majority are just people who enjoy getting out there and whacking little white balls around, mostly in the woods or sand, hanging with their beer buddies, going to the unique vacations spots like St. Andrews. Some play in the local foursome or best ball tournaments. Some spend their lives trying to improve their game. I see a buddy of mine, Country superstar Vince Gill, at breakfast nearly every day, AFTER he has played 18 holes. He says he uses music to support his "golf habit." And even a very very finite few will travel up those steps to the local and regional tournaments. Being the best in your region is a pretty big deal.
But how many make that final 200 or so that play in the PGA, the Masters, British Open, US Open, etc?

Music is very much the same way. Millions upon millions buy instruments, and other equipment, get lessons, make trips, record, play open mics, writers nights, form bands, play gigs, write and record or play cover songs in living rooms, camera phones, YOU TUBE, web sites, TWITTER, etc. How many of those ever even get paid one dollar for their efforts. The majority of songwriters will never make $2000 in their lifetime.It's a BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. Most will never make anything.

But they all have the same dream. All have the same desire. To share what is inside of themselves with as many people as they can. A very very few, climb that ladder. We get about 600 a week that make the pilgrimage, or move to Nashville a week. Offsetting that are around 1200 a week that quit, go home, leave, or find other things to do within 6 months to two years.
A billion songs a month go on the Internet. 30-50 million writers, artists, poets, authors, worldwide. But does that make any one quit their dreams? Of course not. They simply re-direct how they approach it.

That is the decision. If It were up to me, people would TOTALLY quit thinking about the financial side of it and totally concentrate on building a better product. Then work on promoting and distributing that product. Raising the overall quality. If they did all that, the financial MIGHT be there. Or it might not. One of the reasons I have experienced the things I have, from a performer, a writer, a teacher, a mentor, a promoter, producer, whatever, is I NEVER PHONE IT IN. I bring my "A" game to everything I do.
That is what I suggest to others. Worry about the things you can do something about, and not get too bogged down by the things you have no control over. Makes it a lot more sane.

FORE!
MAB

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Jim Colyer says:

"Marc, I read what you wrote, and it all makes sense. You are more involved in the Nashville music scene than I am. Basically, I spend my time in the Vanderbilt libraries and in karaoke bars. I got hooked on karaoke 20 years ago and still enjoy singing the songs of my youth."

Jim, I understand that too. Here is another interesting thing about the Karaoke bars. Some of them used to hire local singers to be in the audience and sing as the night progresses to appeal to the tourists. If you have someone who really knows what they are doing get up every so often, it keeps things moving, tourists interested and well....sell more drinks and food! A friend of mine that I worked with early on was Megan Linsey. Megan would go on to be a runner up on THE VOICE, and is doing a decent career these days. Recently doing a Nutra System commercial with Marie Osmond.

She would be around the karaoke nights, get up, keep it moving and then be a sort of "hostess" for the club. One of the ways she made money in her early career.

The point would be to keep your ears open on some of those karaoke nights. New singers into town, younger people, will often wander into them. They are also looking for deals, often writers themselves and it might be a way to meet someone new, excited about the town and possibly a co-writer down the road.

Over my years here, I had a couple of clubs interested in doing an evening of "SONGWRITER KARAOKE." A lot of writers would have their own songs fully recorded and have tracks to them. I suggested that they could come in, and sing to their own songs on a special set or night. No one ever went for it, and I never really pursued past dropping a hint to the owners or managers. They always wanted ME to run it and I was never going to do that.

Again, we are always looking for allies in this town. Might even find one in a Karaoke night. Hope you can make it out to one of my shows sometime. Would be great to meet you.

On an interesting side note, on Thursday when I played in town, one of my old clients came out. First time I had seen him in about 7 years. The interesting thing about him is I do mean OLD. He was 69 years old when he came to me. He had been a rockabilly artist back in the 50's but had to give it up, and get a "real job." Many years later after being quite successful, he retired and got back into music. That is when he came to me. We worked on a few separate occassions, and then he disappeared. A couple years ago, I started getting royalty checks from Sweden, Denmark, and other Nordic countries. I couldn't figure out where they came from. It was HIM!!! He had toured those countries, got radio airplay, and created quite a fan base. At OVER 70 YEARS OLD!!!
So he popped up the other night to see me perform, and was in town to do some recording of his own.

Never fail to get surprises in this world. Hope to see you out sometime.

MAB

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Marc you hit the nail on the head on several points there! A lot of that has to do with how people apply their own efforts in a diverse number of scenarios.

Country music, though one of many styles of music, has grown more diverse over the years, as any type of music needs to evolve to stay popular.

I am curious about specifically mentioning the words "country music" in a country song.

I put up a new question about why that may or may not be a good idea. The question is over on the MP3 Board about the song "My Girl and Country Music".

I cannot figure out what you meant about saying "country music" in a genre-specific song?

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Toby,

Interesting you ask that question, about using the word "country" in a song, because it would be something I would suggest you NOT do. Again, most of what I do is being around some really interesting people, hit writers, producers, record people, publishers, artists, etc. I end up in a lot of dinners, cocktail parties, late night guitar pulls, charity events, (I play on a lot of those) and get to hear a lot of their conversations "Not for public consumption."

A few years back we started having the "BRO-COUNTRY" explosion. Every where you looked were songs coming out that had versions of the same thing, lyrics, music, etc. It was sort of like "COUNTRY BY COLUMN A, COLUMN B' etc." There would be the obligatory song about "being in my pickup truck, with my Girl (named GURL) with some cold one's iced down in the back, out in the (insert "field, down by the lake, river, ocean) dancing in her short shorts, in the moonlight, with (insert artist here, Hank, Wille,Skynyrd, etc.) cranked up on the radio, playing some COUNTRY music, they all had the same things.

It was all over the radio, in commercials, etc. And of course, EVERY NEW WRITER OR ARTIST came in with variations on the theme. If the general public thinks THEY were sick of it, you should have been those of us who had been hearing it a couple years BEFORE it hit the radio.
As one of my friends who was a hit publisher and writer said at a party when this subject came up, "If you have to TELL ME HOW COUNTRY YOU ARE...YOU AIN'T. " It began to be a joke. At every guitar pull ,some of these songs would come up as JOKE. The insiders began laughing at it and you couldn't get a song past a publisher with any of those "red flags words" in them. They would take one look, as probably on your song, and simply say, "PASS."

The reason is that you have to understand the philosophy of TRENDS. They all take about three years. A year to ramp up. Some group or artist will break through on them, and you will start to hear it. It will catch on radio with listeners and they start requesting it. The group or artist will be everywhere, on all the late night television shows, the morning news programs, on all the press junkets. Their tours will be really hot, it will start to filter into commercials, movies, etc. it will sort of be everywhere. That will lead into the NEXT PHASE, which is the copycats. Record companies will throw dozens and dozens of similar themes, artists, songs, etc. that all do pretty much the same thing. It is called "COOKIE CUTTER."

Record companies, television studios, motion pictures, etc. pretty much anything that deals with big money are very much follow the leader. When something is successful, they have hundreds of similar products out there. This is why you get similar sit coms, movies of the week, or at the theater, all kinds of things that are eerily familiar. They are by design. Some times this is not intentional. All of these companies develop thousands of different types of product all the time. Each years are new artists, TV pilots, movies, (many that go direct to ON DEMAND), most don't do anything. But a few might be exactly the same thing. One hits and there are dozens of the same thing ready to go. Get a Survivor, and you have fifty shows about eating bugs, surviving in the woods. Get an American Idol and you have THE VOICE, AMERICA'S GOT TALENT, YOU CAN DUET, name it, if it has ratings or makes money, it will be copied.

Now, that is fine. For a while. Then trends WIND DOWN. The public, that is incredibly fickle to begin with, changes interest. And it peaks. Sales figures plateau. In the case of artists, they better start shifting, or they are going to be dead. Most don't ,which is why there are so many ONE HIT WONDERS. The public doesn't see or hear it for a while. It still goes on. Some of those artists, particularly the big sellers, are still on TV, movies, concert tours, etc. But "behind the scenes" they are AS DEAD AS A DOORNAIL.

Where this effects songwriters, is called "TRYING TO HIT A TARGET THAT HAS ALREADY LEFT." People on the outside don't know this, they continue to write the same things, the same way, and when they get those very rare publisher appointments, sit down with a hit writer or artist, producer, they are dead before they even get started. Shows they don't study the business they are going for. You might get that one appointment. You won't get another.

A lot of time the new artists are still doing the same thing. They are doing songs that are "so thirty minutes ago." And they still think it's happening. It's not Their friends all say "That is as good as anything on the radio." And they might be right. But that stuff is ALREADY ON THE RADIO! And for the most part, LEAVING the radio.

It's just one of those fifty million things you have to understand about the music industry. It changes, often before you even know it. The further away you are from it, the harder it gets to see something. But you can almost rest assured on something. If you hear something on the radio, I mean a LOT of something on the radio, and you have a song just like that, even if you had yours FIRST, you might want to put that in the files of "GOOD IDEAS AT THE TIME."

Not much you can do about it, just be aware and not get too caught up in it.

Another thing I did tell you on that song was that you might consider using more specific details in songs. What kind of trucks or what kind of music. But even if you do that, it is probably going to sound like a lot of songs that do that. The only saving grace is that by doing details, you have a more immediate connection with your listener, who see these things in their every day lives. So it might be something they feel that you are writing JUST FOR THEM. And that is the very thing you are trying to do. When a person comes up to you and says "You are writing MY LIFE", you know you have hit the mark.

MAB

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Well Marc,
You hit the nail on the head. That's why I never try to follow the crowd. Of course that makes
it a lot harder to write a song that is different but still good enough to record and release. There
are of no new ideas under the sun so you have to be as creative as possible and different!

Back several years ago Suzy Boggus, I think, was asking for songs so I sent a couple with a SASE.
Didn't get my submission back but sometime later Suzy put out the CD, GIVE ME SOME WHEELS.
So, I said, I'll give you some wheels and wrote the song I'LL GIVE YOU YOUR WHEELS,
Posted on the Web Site. Sometimes a good idea shows up! I heard a story one time about a guy,
in Nashville who would get close to a girl and then break up with her so he could come up with some
good breakup songs.

The song SLIPPING AROUND written by Floyd Tillman was because he heard a couple in a booth
talking about how they had to slip around on their spouses. A huge hit.


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Marc, That's basically what I thought, I just did not want to feel that I was missing the point.

Trends and cliches' whether they are from the fifties or today. I can listen to Country songs from any era, from the middle of last century to right now, and still hear Country songs about the pickup truck, the boots, the drinking etc.

Thankfully, as a music enthusiast of many genres of music, I am able to enjoy listening experiences from other perspectives aside from the cliche' packed Country songs. However, the cliches' do appear almost inevitably. They are rehashed and boring. I personally do not like listening to Country music that is not as much Country as it is a trendy smashing-together of a modern day "hip" beat with the cliche' in the lyrics. Or that angle of production.

I want twang. I want honk. I play twang and I play honk. I play Telecasters. I snap the strings and I hybrid and chicken-pick until the cows come home! Because I love country music. I do not love the trends that country music has been on for decades!

The public at large seems to like it though. I think it is because it is not so much about twang as it is about making Country sound like the pop charts, which is nothing new.

That particular song of mine is just one of my attempts to "submit" to the "trend" and the song is specifically full of cliches'. That is the point of the song. It is just another cliche' filled Country song, just what the market is full of.

If I was behind the scenes and around the insider people like you are, I would be laughing about chasing trends too.

As someone who is not an insider though, from a songwriting perspective I like the challenge of creating what my perception of the market is in the commercial Country market. It is challenging to write Country lyrical hooks. And it is even more challenging to do that and avoid any of the cliches'.

I try to stay aware of cliches' when writing songs. However, it seems that, especially in Country music, that the cliches' are almost expected to be there.

Hey, I appreciate you clarifying the "red flags" and you have provided me a WINDOW into why you pointed that out. Cool!

I will also start thinking about the "writing just for them" approach.

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Ray, it is always funny to hear people talk about things. When you mention some of the names, I think back and have a personal connection to them. One of (many) drummers, was a guy named Rich Thurman. He used to play with Susie Boggus, and was the live drummer for the tour supporting that album. We actually did a show together, but I had to have another drummer because he played with Susie. Very cool and she was a great artist and singer. Pretty hot too. LOL!

A Floyd Tillman song, "I LOVE YOU SO MUCH IT HURTS" was right before my song, "THAT'S WHERE IT HURTS" on the debut SHELBY LYNNE album, "SUNRISE." That song was after a song called "THE HURTIN' SIDE" by Mike Reid. She was all about hurting on that album. LOL! As a matter of fact, the review in "People magazine" was about "how a 19 year old girl could experience so much pain. Considering she had been married and abused at 16, seen her Father kill her Mother, and then himself in their driveway, she had really seen a LOT of pain.

Toby, glad you asked. I like to make sure I am clear on my posts, which is why they are so long sometimes. I have to apologize a lot here but some of these questions don't have really simple answers. Same with songs, pitching, etc. We all run into other people's biases. I can tell you "not to do something" and the next day four songs may end up on the radio doing just what I told you not to do. But there is always "another side" to anything.

One of those sides people who are trying to learn about this leave out, is the "inside nature" of the business. If you were a hit writer or artist, who had been around for a while, had a HUGE track record, made money for labels, publishers, other co-writers, managers, agents, lawyers, distributors, supporting acts, touring personel, venues, arenas, truck drivers, CD and t-shirt manufacturers, accountants, award shows, and many outside vehicles, parking lot attendants, valets, resturants and bars that feed and serve drinks to people going to those big concerts, waitresses, bartenders, UBER Drivers, cab drivers, bus drivers, food and drink vendors, and every one that are employed as a result of some hit song, act, etc. You are going to be able to get away with a lot more than the average person trying to come into this business.

Those are the people I talk about. I look at you, (and myself) as people who are new, or always trying to find the new twist and turns on old subjects, on older styles or trying to find ways to reinvent ourselves. When I talk about something like cliches', etc.
that is the point of view I come from. A lot of time we have to approach it differently, if we don't have all that track record. We have to earn our own. Avoiding some roadblocks that hold up others is a great way to keep on track.

MAB

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"Over my years here, I had a couple of clubs interested in doing an evening of "SONGWRITER KARAOKE." A lot of writers would have their own songs fully recorded and have tracks to them. I suggested that they could come in, and sing to their own songs on a special set or night. No one ever went for it, and I never really pursued past dropping a hint to the owners or managers. They always wanted ME to run it and I was never going to do that."

Marc, I have the tracks for a lot of my songs on CDs and would sing them in karaoke bars in the late 90s and early 10s. That was before karaoke became computerized. My favorite karaoke bar back then was Larry's on Murfreesboro Road. A gal named Lisa Hopkins always let me do my own songs.

Jim

Last edited by Jim Colyer; 03/05/17 05:21 PM.
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That would have been something they should have done more.


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