Who's Online Now
23 registered members (E Swartz, ben willis, Gary E. Andrews, Andy K, couchgrouch, AntonyRobWells, Everett Adams, ckiphen, Fdemetrio, 4 invisible), and 228 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Stephen John (singch
Stephen John (singch
Trinidad & Tobago
Posts: 293
Joined: August 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Guitar For Sale.
by JAPOV. 09/19/19 11:17 PM
Breathe
by JAPOV. 09/19/19 10:52 PM
The Giant Ain't Sleeping Anymore
by Scott Campbell. 09/19/19 10:35 PM
# Hash-tag World. #
by MFB III. 09/19/19 10:14 PM
Honest Politician
by JAPOV. 09/19/19 10:08 PM
It Ain't A Conspiracy Theory If It's True
by E Swartz. 09/19/19 10:04 PM
KEN BURNS HISTORY OF COUNTRY MUSIC
by Ray E. Strode. 09/19/19 09:42 PM
It's Just No Use (Or Is It)
by Scott Campbell. 09/19/19 09:40 PM
Gatekeeper #3
by Scott Campbell. 09/19/19 09:29 PM
"Oh, Poison Ivy" by Gary E. Andrews
by Gary E. Andrews. 09/19/19 09:26 PM
A computer sings my latest song!
by Andy K. 09/19/19 08:39 PM
Young Woman
by E Swartz. 09/19/19 07:23 PM
RAISE A GLASS.,( DAVE LEKICH & TRAVIS)
by Steve Altonian. 09/19/19 05:56 PM
A Bright New Day
by Steve Altonian. 09/19/19 05:55 PM
Music In Two Movies...
by John Lawrence Schick. 09/19/19 05:06 PM
Eleven Tips & Tricks from Cliff Goldmacher
by Guy E. Trepanier. 09/19/19 03:56 PM
Love is no game
by ckiphen. 09/19/19 12:15 PM
R.I.P. Ric Ocasek
by Fdemetrio. 09/19/19 10:11 AM
My first co-write since Helen
by Roy Cooper. 09/19/19 05:30 AM
Back From Who I Am
by JAPOV. 09/19/19 04:10 AM
American
by JAPOV. 09/19/19 02:57 AM
California
by 90 dB. 09/18/19 08:40 PM
911 and Gander
by Gavin Sinclair. 09/18/19 01:09 PM
"Hello" and "Hurt me like Music." - Two acoustics
by AntonyRobWells. 09/17/19 09:57 PM
CPU - darkish synth based song
by JAPOV. 09/17/19 09:13 PM
Interview: Graham Wade on John Williams, Julian Br
by TransformsIntoAGuita. 09/17/19 02:26 PM
MusicXray
by Everett Adams. 09/17/19 07:20 AM
'Lullaby (for Lara)'
by Philip Marino. 09/16/19 10:04 AM
Events in Ohio, WV.
by Gary E. Andrews. 09/16/19 10:04 AM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,766
Travis david 11,577
Kevin Emmrich 10,549
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,572
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,844
glynda 8,591
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,905
couchgrouch 7,540
Corey 7,357
Dave Rice 7,302
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,531
Joe Wrabek 6,403
Vicarn 6,134
ben willis 6,101
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,604
niteshift 5,481
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,898
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,652
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,359
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
Roy Cooper 4,101
nightengale 4,086
TamsNumber4 4,033
Caroline 3,865
MFB III 3,805
Kolstad 3,804
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,500
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
E Swartz 3,362
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,812
MidniteBob 2,707
Nelson 2,570
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,214
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
floyd jane 1,982
maccharles 1,954
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,650
Noel Downs 1,620
Rick Heenan 1,597
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Martin Lide 1,529
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,461
Tom Franz 1,455
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
GocartMoz 1,434
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Fdemetrio 1,303
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
Gerry 1,143
summeoyo 1,123
joro 1,081
BobbyJoe 1,075
lane1777 1,065
S.DEE 1,040
Deej56 1,038
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
IronKnee 947
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
9ne 881
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
90 dB 819
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 744
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 733
ant 732
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
Irwin 627
CG King 622
douglas 621
Pat Hardy 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
Moosesong 586
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
R&M 492
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#1122882 - 01/20/17 04:54 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
We must have grown up in the same era Ben. I agree with your assessment of "The Golden Age"

Cat Stevens and Harry Chapin and Jim Croce made a huge impact, but unfortunately, lacked the length of careers of some of the others...Cat by choice and Chapin and Croce because they died before they could give us more.

Gordon Lightfoot is a great name to add...a solid repertoire, lengthy career that has slowed but is still going.

If we go a bit outside the box, Jacaques Brel has not been mentioned, but understandable since he was only really huge in Europe (kinda like Chris deBurgh except he is also very popular almost everywhere except the USA). Little known fact...Terry Jacks had a huge hit with Seasons In The Sun back then, which was really a Jacques Brel song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB58PuNYO8o





If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1122883 - 01/20/17 04:59 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,890
PopTodd Offline
Top 100 Poster
PopTodd  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,890
Western Springs, IL, USA
Another favorite:
Gram Parsons

Never had any really big hits, but his songs could be absolutely devastating. Maybe the smallest giant on this list.

#1122885 - 01/20/17 05:09 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
I consider myself an 80's kid. That was the era that i can remember hearing and understanding music. MTV was a big part of my childhood...for good or bad.

I recall hearing the lightfoots, forgot about croce...wow hard to believe, john denver, cat stevens,on the radio as a young boy, and i remember feeling kind of sad when I heard them for some reason. I didnt appreciate them until many years later when I started writing songs.

Learning guitar lead me to guitar music, Led Zep, The Who, Stones, and I started questioning what the hell MTV was all about. While the kids were listening to men without hats and flock of seaguls, I was listening to Hendrix

Long journey, but I recall very early loving songs like Sweets Love is like Oxygen, and fox on the run... fleetwood mac's You Make Loving Fun, Kenny Rogers Coward of the country...lol still love it to this day

My dad always had Hank Williams playing he loved country music, the classic kind. I had alot of ethnic irish music in my ears at a very young age too

Its been quite a journey. I think its better to be a fan of music, than to try and play or write it. Your whole perspective changes. The minute you learn how to play an instrument or write a song, you never hear other music the same way again.

There was a time when I just listened and didnt analyze anything just listened, and either enjoyed or didnt. Great times



Last edited by BenJones; 01/20/17 05:17 PM.
#1122888 - 01/20/17 05:28 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: PopTodd]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by PopTodd
Another favorite:
Gram Parsons

Never had any really big hits, but his songs could be absolutely devastating. Maybe the smallest giant on this list.


Gram Parsons was another big omission.

#1122899 - 01/20/17 07:03 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Parsons deserves mention if only for his influence on other artists.

I think at least one artist from the Boston folk music scene deserves mention, but I'll mention four:

Suzanne Vega
John Gorka
Shawn Colvin
Lucy Kaplansky

Quintessential examples of um...real singer-songwriter-ry singer-songwriters.. smile

The problem I have with choosing based on "who we think are the best" when we don't actually like those artists more than others is that we could theoretically end up with a list of folks that NOBODY really likes! (think about it)..

And having pondered this myself, I think the "big umbrella" is a better fit in that Ray's picks are actually his favorites. Would we want Ray to research the "smaller umbrella" of artists like James Taylor, Carly Simon, etc. and choose five of those when he doesn't really like them? I think not..

John, very cool you let me into your brain to understand how you arrived at your choices. Yes, we all have a slightly different understanding of the slippery term "singer-songwriter" and that's a good thing--it's helping the list to become a rounded one, since we're a well rounded bunch here, avoiding the absurdity of a James Brown or Ozzy Osbourne being nominated which would happen if we were comprised mostly of octogenarian soul music lovers or heavy metal lovers.

Mike

BTW, when I said the "Gearslutz" definition was my favorite, I hope it's understood that it's cuz I find it hilarious, touching on every stereotype that folks have about singer-songwriters, including "attempting to rock out and failing epic-ally.."

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/21/17 01:32 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122900 - 01/20/17 07:24 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
A lot of it is predetermined by what the media has already spelled out to us.

If we didn't see Bob Dylan's name in thousands and thousands of pages of media, and articles, and books, would we spit out his name in response when asked who the greatest songwriter was of all time?

I think he is deserving of the title, but a lot of it is predetermined

But I think because we are songwriters asking the question and answering it, we tend to answer more objectively more so than what we like

If you switch the focus to painters. Most of us are not painters I don't think...where do we begin? We rattle off Picasso, davinci, Michael Angelo, without maybe not even knowing one piece actually painted.

Same thing with classical music, who is the best classical composer of all time? Error...Beethoven, Bach, Mozart? Hard to go wrong with those names

And granted, sometimes those people get the name for a reason

I do think though you can identify great songwriters without actually liking them, especially if you understand what makes a song great.

But most people listen for enjoyment, not for academic purposes


Last edited by BenJones; 01/20/17 07:26 PM.
#1122904 - 01/20/17 09:26 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Originally Posted by BenJones
A lot of it is predetermined by what the media has already spelled out to us.

If we didn't see Bob Dylan's name in thousands and thousands of pages of media, and articles, and books, would we spit out his name in response when asked who the greatest songwriter was of all time?

I think he is deserving of the title, but a lot of it is predetermined

But I think because we are songwriters asking the question and answering it, we tend to answer more objectively more so than what we like

If you switch the focus to painters. Most of us are not painters I don't think...where do we begin? We rattle off Picasso, davinci, Michael Angelo, without maybe not even knowing one piece actually painted.

Same thing with classical music, who is the best classical composer of all time? Error...Beethoven, Bach, Mozart? Hard to go wrong with those names

And granted, sometimes those people get the name for a reason

I do think though you can identify great songwriters without actually liking them, especially if you understand what makes a song great.

But most people listen for enjoyment, not for academic purposes



Hi Ben,

I'm in agreement with most everything you say.

I do think though you can identify great songwriters without actually liking them, especially if you understand what makes a song great.

I think this statement is true as well, but it relies heavily on the "especially if you know what makes a song great" --and that's where I stumble a bit, and here's why.

Because for one to know it's great without feeling it (in other words, liking it) to be so seems to mean (to me at least) that we are buying into the hype somewhat. I mean, how does one come to know something is great without feeling that to be true, unless one does research or studies music composition at a high level..and isn't that research part and parcel of "what the media has already spelled out to us" ..? I think most of us here like what we like, and really can't know that Dylan is better, but might simply "parrot" what the master teachers are professing, which is tantamount to buying into someone else's beliefs, rather than processing stuff and arriving at that conclusion ones' self.

Okay.."what the media spells out for us" and academia imparting its knowledge are two separate things. Perhaps that minority that actually studies song-writing at some advanced level might come to know that a James Taylor is a "better" singer-songwriter than say, a Jessie Winchester, by studying their songs AND their performances as well, as that has to figure into the equation (of what makes a great singer-songwriter)--none of us are basing it purely on the songs, but the recordings and live performances as well and..that's a lot of comprehensive studying or research, LOL..whereas a choice based on what we actually like best is the simplest thing, and is one thing that we as individuals can know for sure. With certainty. smile

Otherwise, I believe we are simply deferring to the hype in some way. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I have come to select movies based on Rottentomatoes' critical consensus and I've ended up watching a higher quality movie as a result.

But for the sake of arriving at a consensus of who are the best singer-songwriters, and one that reflects artists we actually like, it kind of remains problematic to me to do that based on the knowledge of others rather than our own personal preferences, unless we're all well-informed students of the big umbrella and choose accordingly. But few of us are, nor should we be. Most are choosing based on the sub-categories of music we like. Like you pointed out, country people are choosing Merle Haggard, Metal people might choose Ozzy, etc..

Respectfully,

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/20/17 11:42 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122905 - 01/20/17 09:43 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
BTW Ben, I just want to point out..both of us rejected Dylan based on the fact that neither of us find much of his work very moving..so in practice you are following your heart.. smile


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122906 - 01/20/17 10:01 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Jacques Brel very definitely deserves mention. Perhaps the best European singer-songwriter of the last fifty years.

Gillian Welch has been overlooked as well. Another great folk-based writer and performer. smile


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122909 - 01/20/17 11:47 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Yes very true. Even scholars of songwriting wont agree on everything, and then ere back to square one.

There's very little fact in the world. Mathematics is probably the only thing that is "true"

Btw, I didnt reject Dylan, I did say I didn't put him on my list because he is not very entertaining to me. He also doesn't move me but a lot of artists I like don't move me either, Paul Simon is one, but he is very entertaining. Van Halen doesn't move me but I enjoy listening just to listen, same thing with Peter Gabriel...shock the monkey or sledgehammer were great listening experiences

But my tried and true favorites do speak to me in some way, that's something you can't quantify.

I like Suzanne Vega btw, I first heard the song Luka, but I really heard more one day at Barnes and noble where her new greatest hits album was playing. Talk about drawing you in, she can do it


Last edited by BenJones; 01/20/17 11:52 PM.
#1122912 - 01/21/17 01:00 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Originally Posted by BenJones
Yes very true. Even scholars of songwriting wont agree on everything, and then ere back to square one.


Yes. The revisionists will say one thing, then the revisionists of the revisionists, the opposite.

This was especially true in the world of modern classical music. For over half a century "12-tone music" was taught to students cuz academia deemed it the pinnacle of modern classical composition. This is the stuff that Arnold Shoenberg and Anton Webern wrote over a century ago, along with treatises, etc..and it became part of the curriculum of modern compositional theory and practice.

Problem was..outside of a few film composers who could see the value of the "tone row" in scores that reflected a fragmented psychological state, finding an audience for this kind of music was difficult. It was usually other members of academia. The public would always choose a Samuel Barber or an Aaron Copland over a Milton Babbit, cuz Barber and Copland were writing mostly tonal stuff. Adventurous and more dissonant than their predecessors, yes, but still quite accessible.

Then with the minimalists (Steve Reich, Philip Glass)in the 60s and then the hundreds of post-minimalists from the eighties on, modern classical music has been reborn with a substantial audience, because it puts repetition and tonality at the forefront of its compositional devices--two things that make popular music popular, as well.

And so the modern classical music theory curriculum these days has a short chapter on twelve-tone music and it's nor stressed in any way, and is viewed by most of today's academia as a kind of blemish on the face of modern classical music.

Yes, math might be the only thing we can know with certainty is true. But as history marches on, perhaps it reveals a kind of truth in it's various repetitions and disguised patterns.

My apologies John and all for going a bit off topic here. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/21/17 01:45 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122913 - 01/21/17 01:33 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
That's OK...it all means I can even vote for myself smile



If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1122921 - 01/21/17 02:10 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Yup you can.

I look at it like this, if you can't entertain me, you have little chance of me connecting, or me understanding your point of view, or me seeing your craft or anything else.

Some artists can entertain, and there's nothing else there, others have tons to offer on the inside but can't entertai

We also have to consider that we listen to recordings of songs, or live we listen to performances of songs, we dont actually listen to songs,

What entertaining is is also very subjective











#1122923 - 01/21/17 02:19 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
MidniteBob Offline
Top 100 Poster
MidniteBob  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
That's OK...it all means I can even vote for myself smile


Sure, John ya can vote for yerself, just so long as you let us know whatever Canucks you'll over-ride:-)

And speaking of Canadian's....Since I'm the only one who's mentioned Bruce Cockburn, I will also toss in Stan Rogers who died in a helicopter crash & burn in Ohio on his way back from the Kerrville Festival....

Shades of Buddy & Otis & Croce & Chapin....

The irony, is that Stan Rogers wrote one of the best Sea Chanties EVER, and died on an airmack in land-locked Ohio...

Stan Rogers...When I was just testing my weak knees in open-mics back in 1992, doing originals, two Dudes sang "The Mary Ellen Carter" & "Barrette's Privateers"...Sorry for the spelling....

But since others have left Artists off of their list, because they never really "touched" them(I paraphrased there)...

Stan Rogers....If the song link that follows doesn't touch yer heart, then you & The |Grinch have hearts "two sizes too small"...:-)

Stan Rogers...And, yeap, I know that Stan won't be a finalist but don't really give a hoot...Just wanna share another Canadian Singer-songwriter...

"Lies"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D79XOc1vKzQ

Midnite



Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1122925 - 01/21/17 06:26 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by BenJones
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
Tally so far 46 different names. Mentions means they were on a list. Controversy around Paul Simon and credits etc was ignored

Paul Simon 6 mentions
Neil Young 4 mentions
Leonard Cohen, Hank Williams sr, Joni Mitchell, Carole King 3 mentions
The rest with one or two mentions


@ Paul Simon, It doesn't change whether or not he's a great songwriter. it's like saying OJ wasn't a great football player because he killed two people. If Dylan shot somebody, he would still be one of the best songwriters of all time.

Alot of people were mad at Bob Seger for the like a rock commercial, he did donate but he also made 5 million on that ad, I believe.


Certainly no intelligent person here made a comment against someone with with world class talents being allowed to make as much money as they want from it did they? Labels/corporations bleed every penny they can from other people's work, smart people should never confuse that with someone making every penny off their own work that they can and doing whatever they want with it (no one here is required to give to charities, nor should anyone be, it is far more meaningful when it is voluntary and not just politically correct (I sure hope the PC world is a heinous past tense phenomena as it is an afront to honesty and sincerity). I hope he made 100 million off of it and other similar deals wanting to use his music and hope we're all that fortunate as well! I know of a case when a group of multi millionaire divas used PC bullcrap on a friend of mine to keep her (and she was still dead broke at the time) from a half million dollar short term contract to use her song on a truck commercial just because it wasn't their preferred truck brand when my friend couldn't even afford to buy a truck or anything else to drive... and that was money she would have done great things with but they didn't care, it wasn't the hipper brand with the PC connections they supported and THEY approved of... (and they've long been queens of anti American propaganda, but I digress...).

Not only did that commercial deal lead to good direct money, it also built his own brand every time the commercials played...

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1122926 - 01/21/17 06:48 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Originally Posted by BenJones
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
Tally so far 46 different names. Mentions means they were on a list. Controversy around Paul Simon and credits etc was ignored

Paul Simon 6 mentions
Neil Young 4 mentions
Leonard Cohen, Hank Williams sr, Joni Mitchell, Carole King 3 mentions
The rest with one or two mentions


@ Paul Simon, It doesn't change whether or not he's a great songwriter. it's like saying OJ wasn't a great football player because he killed two people. If Dylan shot somebody, he would still be one of the best songwriters of all time.

Alot of people were mad at Bob Seger for the like a rock commercial, he did donate but he also made 5 million on that ad, I believe.


Certainly no intelligent person here made a comment against someone with with world class talents being allowed to make as much money as they want from it did they? Labels/corporations bleed every penny they can from other people's work, smart people should never confuse that with someone making every penny off their own work that they can and doing whatever they want with it (no one here is required to give to charities, nor should anyone be, it is far more meaningful when it is voluntary and not just politically correct (I sure hope the PC world is a heinous past tense phenomena as it is an afront to honesty and sincerity). I hope he made 100 million off of it and other similar deals wanting to use his music and hope we're all that fortunate as well! I know of a case when a group of multi millionaire divas used PC bullcrap on a friend of mine to keep her (and she was still dead broke at the time) from a half million dollar short term contract to use her song on a truck commercial just because it wasn't their preferred truck brand when my friend couldn't even afford to buy a truck or anything else to drive... and that was money she would have done great things with but they didn't care, it wasn't the hipper brand with the PC connections they supported and THEY approved of... (and they've long been queens of anti American propaganda, but I digress...).

Not only did that commercial deal lead to good direct money, it also built his own brand every time the commercials played...

Brian
,

Don't know what to tell ya Brian, just what I heard at the time.
Nowadays "selling out" is no big deal, but in that time period it was still a bit taboo, super bowl appearances were not kosher either for rock and rollers

He speaks about it here himself in this talk show I found.

Tune into 15.23' and then flip to 18 he talks about integrity...and abiut Bruce. You dint seem to like Bruce, but here is a few reasons many do. Actually Bruce turned down 5 million from lee ioacoca of Chevy to use Born in this USA

15.23 and 18.00
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2x424Cq6gMo



Last edited by BenJones; 01/21/17 06:51 AM.
#1122927 - 01/21/17 06:57 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
We must have grown up in the same era Ben. I agree with your assessment of "The Golden Age"

Cat Stevens and Harry Chapin and Jim Croce made a huge impact, but unfortunately, lacked the length of careers of some of the others...Cat by choice and Chapin and Croce because they died before they could give us more.

Gordon Lightfoot is a great name to add...a solid repertoire, lengthy career that has slowed but is still going.

If we go a bit outside the box, Jacaques Brel has not been mentioned, but understandable since he was only really huge in Europe (kinda like Chris deBurgh except he is also very popular almost everywhere except the USA). Little known fact...Terry Jacks had a huge hit with Seasons In The Sun back then, which was really a Jacques Brel song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB58PuNYO8o





John, I think you especially will appreciate this amusing, though a bit too overwrought, article about Brel's version versus Jack's version (penned, by the way, by Rod McKuen which few people know, including a youtube video with the direct translation of the original words. Frankly, the song is so different, it likely could get past modern day courts as not being a close enough copy. Enjoy: http://www.elisbergindustries.com/blog/the-best-worst-song-ever

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1122936 - 01/21/17 11:03 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,905
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,905
Saint Petersburg. FL
Graham Nash
David Crosby
Aoife O'Donovan
JJ Cale
Mark Knopfler
Richard Thompson
Lucinda Williams
Jimmy Buffett
Jason Isbell
Gillian Welch


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1122950 - 01/21/17 02:07 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Colin Ward
Kurt Fortmeyer
Michael Zaneski
Pop Todd
Barry David Butler

#1122956 - 01/21/17 02:46 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
Rats Midnite, far too many good Canadian singer songwriters ahead of me...so I guess I'm off any list of the top (N+1)thousands of the best smile


Something Ben said and touched on by Michael I will address too---when I first moved to Toronto, a young actor, Jeff Wincott (he now shows up on American TV and is the brother of Michael Wincott) insisted he pay the cable bill in exchange for first access to whatever he wanted to watch.


He had a girl friend also in the industry, and they would watch together and totally deconstruct whatever was on. It was entirely "business" for them to be watching what was on the screen. I have in my CPA life clients in the industry as well. They too watch in order to learn and grow...not necessarily to enjoy what is on.


So I expect the closer you are to being in the business of songwriting, the more you (can) focus in on the hows and wheres and whys instead of simply enjoying the song.


And Ben your point about Dylan being front of mind due to media exposure is a bit off. I think your conclusion makes a lot of sense, yes, he would not be where he is without the exposure, but it is BECAUSE of what he has done that he receives it.


Still, and here your point really resonates with me, there are folks who are led by critics and other "opinion leaders" in their peer groups and want to identify with what is in vogue without really knowing anything more than "I am supposed to like this"...so if that is what you were getting at...spot on IMO


Brian, back to Jacques Brel. As I understand it, Brel wrote the song in French (he was Belgian by the way) and McKuen actually did the english translation. And though it does differ some, the similarities in lyric and music are unmistakable AND acknowledged by all. No ripoff etc------(total aside, my favourite Belgian is Herge, author of TinTin)


Michael, you mention Lucy Kaplansky---she is definitely good...have you heard of Dar Williams? Love her too. Dar, Lucy and Richard Shindell (another worthy writer) collaborated on a CD "Cry, Cry, Cry" some years back...great music. It featured a song, "Cold Missouri Waters" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgQNeGPJdcQ by James Keelaghan, another worthy Canadian smile


Lastly--some more names to add to the list ...thank you!





If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1122957 - 01/21/17 03:11 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
Rats Midnite, far too many good Canadian singer songwriters ahead of me...so I guess I'm off any list of the top (N+1)thousands of the best smile


Something Ben said and touched on by Michael I will address too---when I first moved to Toronto, a young actor, Jeff Wincott (he now shows up on American TV and is the brother of Michael Wincott) insisted he pay the cable bill in exchange for first access to whatever he wanted to watch.


He had a girl friend also in the industry, and they would watch together and totally deconstruct whatever was on. It was entirely "business" for them to be watching what was on the screen. I have in my CPA life clients in the industry as well. They too watch in order to learn and grow...not necessarily to enjoy what is on.


So I expect the closer you are to being in the business of songwriting, the more you (can) focus in on the hows and wheres and whys instead of simply enjoying the song.


And Ben your point about Dylan being front of mind due to media exposure is a bit off. I think your conclusion makes a lot of sense, yes, he would not be where he is without the exposure, but it is BECAUSE of what he has done that he receives it.


Still, and here your point really resonates with me, there are folks who are led by critics and other "opinion leaders" in their peer groups and want to identify with what is in vogue without really knowing anything more than "I am supposed to like this"...so if that is what you were getting at...spot on IMO





I have no argument on any of that. He deserves his status, but I think conditioning plays a role. BUT,

If you play Bob Dylan to a group of teenagers without explaining who Dylan is, or what he has done, chances are they won't even know who he is. But en they listen, it's not going to be apparent to them that this is one of the greatest songwriters of modern times, in fact, they will probably think it sucks.

But if you tell them before listening, ok gang, we are going to play you a piece of music from one of our countries greatest songwriters, you may have not heard of him, but I'm sure your grand parents have, he is probably the greatest songwriter we have seen yet.

They still might not like it, but they will listen in a different way, and probably say...yes I can see why he is considered so good.

You could apply it to here. Couchgrouch probably has hundreds of lyrics written here, Jim pushes them up every day, people expect to see good lyrics from couchgrouch when they read them.

If couchgrouch were to write a crap lyric on purpose, I can guarantee you the same people who go through his lyrics will still say something positive, because they associate his stuff with previous posts

If you or I record a cover song done by a great artist, but nobody knew the song and posted it here, there is a distinct possibility that nobody would even comment, or think that highly of it.

But if we told the people up front, this is a cover song of a rarely heard Beatles song, all of a sudden everybody would be curious and commenting.

Do you know how boy bands get famous? The people who put together boy bands make videos of the newly formed band, who nobody knows yet, and recruit a bunch of young girls to make a video, and have the girls screaming and chasing after this unknown band. Then they out the video on air, and all the young girls watching it think this is the greatest new band of all time, and they want to run after them too

That's not what's.
happening with Dylan, but you see where I'm coming from

Last edited by BenJones; 01/21/17 03:15 PM.
#1122960 - 01/21/17 03:55 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,383
Hey Ben, if your point is that the listener's appreciation depends on the context of their introduction to what they listen to---yeah, I think so...and there is definitely a hype machine built around what a record company wants to promote.


Too bad Big Jim Merrilees is not in on this discussion. His main point, if I can be so bold, is that there is absolutely no good music being made anymore...it's all cut and pasting what sells by those simply chasing the money smile






If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1122961 - 01/21/17 04:07 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
I'm guessing he's over 50?

There's plenty of music being made that fits everybody's criteria of what good is, it's just the music that is pushed in today's market only fits some peoples criteria of what good is.

I used to think heavy metal didn't exist any more till somebody told me it's still alive and well, it's just not heard or promoted by mainstream

Last edited by BenJones; 01/21/17 04:09 PM.
#1122963 - 01/21/17 04:34 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,255
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,255
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Whazzat?
Canadian Singer Songwriter's? Hank Snow?


Ray E. Strode
#1122964 - 01/21/17 04:46 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Some good Canuck songwriters

Neil Young
Gordon Lightfoot
Bryan Adams
Joni Mitchell

Not too bad a group...

#1122966 - 01/21/17 04:50 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel


Michael, you mention Lucy Kaplansky---she is definitely good...have you heard of Dar Williams? Love her too. Dar, Lucy and Richard Shindell (another worthy writer) collaborated on a CD "Cry, Cry, Cry" some years back...great music. It featured a song, "Cold Missouri Waters" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgQNeGPJdcQ by James Keelaghan, another worthy Canadian smile


John, I absolutely adore Lucy Kaplansky and have ever since I first heard her on a Boston based Folk artist collection some twenty years ago and have been following her closely since. Love her collabs w/Shindell--she's toured a new record with him last year, in fact.

She to me is the essence of what is a singer-songwriter. Self-accompanied most of the time and writing personal songs that cut deep. Speaking of songs about and for ones' mom, she wrote one and never published it, except someone captured it on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNEecsRIWlw

There's a bit of a child's song in the melody ("This Old Man") and that helps make this resonate back to ones' childhood and then all the memories with mom over time have to come rolling back. The music does that, like an incantation, with that hint of a child's song. The recording is lo-fi to the point where you can't make out all the words..and yet..this song and performance tears me apart..why? Mostly empathy..her mom was on her last legs, and that's what it's about, and I can feel it tearing her up as she's singing it. Being a performer myself, I know that took a lot of guts. Freeze frame the last shots of her when she's standing up..I have never wanted to give another human being a hug more than her. right there, in that captured moment--you can see how vulnerable she is in that moment, and was, singing that..(tears..)

*******************************************************************************

Originally Posted by John Voorpostel


Something Ben said and touched on by Michael I will address too---when I first moved to Toronto, a young actor, Jeff Wincott (he now shows up on American TV and is the brother of Michael Wincott) insisted he pay the cable bill in exchange for first access to whatever he wanted to watch.

He had a girl friend also in the industry, and they would watch together and totally deconstruct whatever was on. It was entirely "business" for them to be watching what was on the screen. I have in my CPA life clients in the industry as well. They too watch in order to learn and grow...not necessarily to enjoy what is on.

So I expect the closer you are to being in the business of songwriting, the more you (can) focus in on the hows and wheres and whys instead of simply enjoying the song.

And Ben your point about Dylan being front of mind due to media exposure is a bit off. I think your conclusion makes a lot of sense, yes, he would not be where he is without the exposure, but it is BECAUSE of what he has done that he receives it.

Still, and here your point really resonates with me, there are folks who are led by critics and other "opinion leaders" in their peer groups and want to identify with what is in vogue without really knowing anything more than "I am supposed to like this"...so if that is what you were getting at...spot on IMO



Thanks for that, John.

It's just a more honest, democratic process that invites more folks in--to let folks know it's okay to choose their favorites. Otherwise folks might feel like they don't really know who to choose, except perhaps what they've heard from others. I mean, how many folks really think about who are the best? Folks mostly just know who they like best.

Otherwise, how is our choosing process any different than playing a round of Family Feud where you are Richard Dawson and we are just trying to guess what we think the "experts" have chosen as the top five answers?


Originally Posted by BenJones
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Originally Posted by BenJones
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
Tally so far 46 different names. Mentions means they were on a list. Controversy around Paul Simon and credits etc was ignored

Paul Simon 6 mentions
Neil Young 4 mentions
Leonard Cohen, Hank Williams sr, Joni Mitchell, Carole King 3 mentions
The rest with one or two mentions


@ Paul Simon, It doesn't change whether or not he's a great songwriter. it's like saying OJ wasn't a great football player because he killed two people. If Dylan shot somebody, he would still be one of the best songwriters of all time.

Alot of people were mad at Bob Seger for the like a rock commercial, he did donate but he also made 5 million on that ad, I believe.


Certainly no intelligent person here made a comment against someone with with world class talents being allowed to make as much money as they want from it did they? Labels/corporations bleed every penny they can from other people's work, smart people should never confuse that with someone making every penny off their own work that they can and doing whatever they want with it (no one here is required to give to charities, nor should anyone be, it is far more meaningful when it is voluntary and not just politically correct (I sure hope the PC world is a heinous past tense phenomena as it is an afront to honesty and sincerity). I hope he made 100 million off of it and other similar deals wanting to use his music and hope we're all that fortunate as well! I know of a case when a group of multi millionaire divas used PC bullcrap on a friend of mine to keep her (and she was still dead broke at the time) from a half million dollar short term contract to use her song on a truck commercial just because it wasn't their preferred truck brand when my friend couldn't even afford to buy a truck or anything else to drive... and that was money she would have done great things with but they didn't care, it wasn't the hipper brand with the PC connections they supported and THEY approved of... (and they've long been queens of anti American propaganda, but I digress...).

Not only did that commercial deal lead to good direct money, it also built his own brand every time the commercials played...

Brian
,

Don't know what to tell ya Brian, just what I heard at the time.
Nowadays "selling out" is no big deal, but in that time period it was still a bit taboo, super bowl appearances were not kosher either for rock and rollers

He speaks about it here himself in this talk show I found.

Tune into 15.23' and then flip to 18 he talks about integrity...and abiut Bruce. You dint seem to like Bruce, but here is a few reasons many do. Actually Bruce turned down 5 million from lee ioacoca of Chevy to use Born in this USA

15.23 and 18.00
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2x424Cq6gMo


Ben,

I think our appreciation of an artist can be tarnished by who they are (or how we think of them) as people. Rightly or wrongly, it happened with Michael Jackson. Liking an artist might be thought of as a linear, running inner dialogue or text, and that inner dialogue, as a song progresses, can go can go like this, "nice..liking it..oh..loving the chorus..ugh--he slept with children.." And yes, we can separate the music from the life..but an artist's public life can certainly act as a filter with how we "hear" their work. Simply put: it can effect if we like an artist or not.

Paul Simon shows many signs of feeling a sense of entitlement in his appropriation of Martin Carthy's arrangement, and there's a bit of colonialism and entitlement in getting a bunch of African musicians and an East LA band together to jam on different days, sitting in a booth apart from those musicians, then saying, "I like that do that for 16 bars, then take it up a fourth" then recording that and making that the bed of a musical track and giving absolutely no credit to those musicians. And so yes, knowing that is a likely account of what went down, I can't hear Simon without having thoughts that spoil what might otherwise be a great song. I am not alone here. Do a thought experiment. If Hitler was a great poet, would you be able to enjoy his poetry? Now, I am not saying Simon is Hitler, just that the same mental processes apply in both cases. It can be hard to separate the life from the work.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/21/17 05:19 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122968 - 01/21/17 05:03 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
I agree, our appreciation can be tarnished, it's always hard hearing something bad about an artist we love, chuck berry had a lot of issues. But our understanding of why they are great can't change based on something they did personally.

We wouldn't have many artists to listen to if we bailed on everyone who did something wrong

People averse to drug use might not want to support Wilkie Nelson, but they can't say he's not a great singer songwriter

Last edited by BenJones; 01/21/17 05:03 PM.
#1122977 - 01/21/17 05:51 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
We must have grown up in the same era Ben. I agree with your assessment of "The Golden Age"

Cat Stevens and Harry Chapin and Jim Croce made a huge impact, but unfortunately, lacked the length of careers of some of the others...Cat by choice and Chapin and Croce because they died before they could give us more.

Gordon Lightfoot is a great name to add...a solid repertoire, lengthy career that has slowed but is still going.

If we go a bit outside the box, Jacaques Brel has not been mentioned, but understandable since he was only really huge in Europe (kinda like Chris deBurgh except he is also very popular almost everywhere except the USA). Little known fact...Terry Jacks had a huge hit with Seasons In The Sun back then, which was really a Jacques Brel song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB58PuNYO8o





John, I think you especially will appreciate this amusing, though a bit too overwrought, article about Brel's version versus Jack's version (penned, by the way, by Rod McKuen which few people know, including a youtube video with the direct translation of the original words. Frankly, the song is so different, it likely could get past modern day courts as not being a close enough copy. Enjoy: http://www.elisbergindustries.com/blog/the-best-worst-song-ever

Brian


The Terry Jacks cover probably did more to harm to Brel than good. I adored the Poppy Family, though.

I came to Brel via the Mort Shuman (Brill building composer of songs like "Save the Last Dance For Me") translations in "Jacques Brel is Alive And Well And Living In Paris" which ran at the Village Gate in the mid sixties, and is one more reason that if I had a chance to go back in time/place just once, I'd choose the early sixties and live in Greenwhich Village and watch Fred Neil, Tim Hardin, Tom Paxton, Carolyn Hester, Dave Van Ronk, Dylan et al..all testing out their new material at the Gaslight Cafe on various nights, and the Brel/Shuman musical playing nearby. smile

And then there were the Scott Walker covers spread across his first four solo records that are the definitive covers.

And listening to Neil Diamond's "If You Go Away" which was on the same record I played for my mom on a daily basis for several years ("Stones") cuz it had her favorite song "Husbands and Wives" on it..

Then finally to Brel himself, most recently, via youtube. A performer only out-sweated by James Brown. The perfect definition of "giving ones all" on every song. One of the most giving performers ever.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/21/17 05:55 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122982 - 01/21/17 06:39 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Hey Michael take for example, Phil Spector.

Developed the great wall of sound, and produced some of the most legendary groups and hits , he was convicted of murder.

What do we do with all those records? Throw them out?

#1122983 - 01/21/17 07:17 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Originally Posted by BenJones
Hey Michael take for example, Phil Spector.

Developed the great wall of sound, and produced some of the most legendary groups and hits , he was convicted of murder.

What do we do with all those records? Throw them out?


Ben,

I'm not saying throw out Paul Simon's records if you personally feel him to be a top-fiver. I am nobody's judge, jury, or executioner. I just know that I can't top-five him cuz of the thoughts I have that ruin listening to anything by him.

As for Spector, it's apples and oranges. Spector was the producer, not the performer, and everyone got paid and everybody got the credit that was do them (as far as I know), though he was probably a real jerk, judging from what others have said. But Darlene Love has nothing bad to say about the guy. I got to work with her when she did a summer stint at the Lower Manhatten Tower Records store sometime between '83 and '86, but I don't remember our conversations.

He's reportedly held folks such as Lennon, Leonard Cohen, Debbie Harry and others at gunpoint, trying to get something out of them in the studio..a little over the top for a producer, I think, LOL.

But the man had vision and was passionate and impulsive and probably a bit crazy, and three out of four of those are great qualities in a producer. smile

When I listen to those old Ronettes records, to answer your question, I love 'em and they aren't tarnished by thoughts of Spector at all. And I actually love the strings on "The Long and Winding Road," but find his Leonard Cohen record mostly unlistenable, but that's mostly because they were just a bad fit, together.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/21/17 07:31 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122985 - 01/21/17 07:31 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Fair enough, but if you know the records your listening to were masterminded by a murderer, that might put a dent In your enjoyment too

The thing is we never really know the real stories of these things anyway. I see thugs written about celebrities online that may or not b true, but how will we ever know?
Personally I think murdering somebody is worse than not paying somebody

Not paying somebody is a dick move, but it's not murder

Prince allegedly had a sex dungeon in his house, that strikes me as a way bit weird, he also allegedly didn't want his employees to look him in the eyes

Ted Nugent alledgedly dated a minor, Steven Tyler allegedly married a minor and lived with her for years after getting consent from her parents

Animal rights activists won't listen to to Nugent, but he's still heck of guitar player

Mick Jagger fathered kids all over the places he just had his 7 with a different woman, and he is in his 70's.

If I go on to do that, I would be the disgrace to my neighborhood

Th list of shady characters in e music business goes on'

Last edited by BenJones; 01/21/17 07:36 PM.
#1122986 - 01/21/17 07:39 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Originally Posted by BenJones
Fair enough, but if you know the records your listening to were masterminded by a murdered, that might put a dent In your enjoyment too

The thing is we never really know the real stories of these things anyway. I see thugs written about celebrities online that may or not b true, but how will we ever know?
Personally I think murdering somebody is worse than not paying somebody

Not paying somebody is a dick move, but it's not murder

Prince allegedly had a sex dungeon in his house, that strikes me as a way bit weird, he also allegedly didn't want his employees to look him in the eyes

Ted Nugent dated a minor, Steven Tyler married a minor and lived with her for two years after getting consent from her parents

Animal rights activists won't listen to to Nugent, but he's still heck of guitar player

Mick Jagger fathered kids all over the places he just had his 7 with a different woman, and he is in his 70's.

If I go on to do that, I would be the disgrace to my neighborhood

Th list of shady characters in e music business goes on'


Murder is indeed far worse than not giving someone credit. He was mentally quite unstable in his latter years.

Indeed, probably 99% of all artists have some kind of skeleton in their closets. Some affect us, others we shrug off. Is there a rhyme or reason to that? A discernible pattern to why some affect some individuals and others don't?

Probably something a good psychologist could figure out, LOL..not a bad idea for an essay or a book, either. How society forgives some of its artists while throwing others to the wolves, and how people react differently depending on their own lives and psychological backgrounds.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/21/17 07:40 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122987 - 01/21/17 07:45 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
We forgive probably based on our likes.

What I find interesting, Michael Jackson was having a hard time finding work in his later years. He wasn't selling out anywhere, and reports were he went to play In Other countries to make his living and perform.

Then, when he died, peopl came out of the woodwork to praise him, there were vigils all over the place, and his music was being downloaded and played at a crazy rate

Maybe we forgive people more when they are dead, than when they are alive?

Last edited by BenJones; 01/21/17 07:47 PM.
#1123003 - 01/22/17 12:40 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
Hey Ben, if your point is that the listener's appreciation depends on the context of their introduction to what they listen to---yeah, I think so...and there is definitely a hype machine built around what a record company wants to promote.


Too bad Big Jim Merrilees is not in on this discussion. His main point, if I can be so bold, is that there is absolutely no good music being made anymore...it's all cut and pasting what sells by those simply chasing the money smile






He corresponded recently with my wife on Facebook but doesn't seem willing to come here for whatever reason. I don't recall any specific issues before he disappeared but who knows what might set someone off. I was just glad I didn't have to put a (D) by his name as I couldn't get a peep out of him.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1123005 - 01/22/17 12:58 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,917
California
Ben, the more I read the more awful I'm finding out Spector to have been. Pathological jealousy and mental abuse keep coming up a lot.

Now that I can't forgive.

Killing Lana Clarkson at the age of 69, and having that 'fro the size of Jersey, and talk that he was mentally quite ill--I was willing to separate his work as a producer which was some 30-40 years before his murder charge from the man who he was when he more than likely did that.

But now having read from Ronnie Spector and others that he was verbally abusive and pathologically jealous in his twenties and thirties on top of his gun wielding..

I think I will find it hard to listen to records he's touched..now that I know these things. It seems he was always the man that he finally became at 69.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/22/17 01:06 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1123006 - 01/22/17 01:07 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Indianapolis, IN USA
We have an obvious reincarnation again if there's anyone left who doesn't already know. Just think and read and you'll know it and if you can't figure it out, it's likely you.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1123007 - 01/22/17 01:18 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by John Voorpostel


Brian, back to Jacques Brel. As I understand it, Brel wrote the song in French (he was Belgian by the way) and McKuen actually did the english translation. And though it does differ some, the similarities in lyric and music are unmistakable AND acknowledged by all. No ripoff etc------(total aside, my favourite Belgian is Herge, author of TinTin)




You know that half of Belgium prefer and speak French right? If not, you do now. I loved Belgium and have friends there still, but it's sadly changed from a safe history laden country with a great cultural history to being overrun by violent terrorists who have taken over large swaths of several major cities. My friends there feel unsafe and unwelcome in their own country, worried about their kids futures and their country's once great history and personae. It's really sad.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1123008 - 01/22/17 01:21 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,890
PopTodd Offline
Top 100 Poster
PopTodd  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,890
Western Springs, IL, USA
So far, we've only mentioned English-speaking songwriters. So, I feel the need to mention:
• Caetano Veloso
• Gilberto Gil
• Tom Zé
• Kurt Weil

#1123009 - 01/22/17 01:39 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
BenJones Offline
Serious Contributor
BenJones  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
We have an obvious reincarnation again if there's anyone left who doesn't already know. Just think and read and you'll know it and if you can't figure it out, it's likely you.
.

Ahh don't like to see people getting along, and
Still sore I scooped you on selling out huh?

You asked if somebody with any intelligence would not want Bob Seeger to make money off of his song...yeah the artist himself,, he didn't want to do it, and he also turned down millions from beer companies. So you called Bob Seger unintelligent

The music world doesn't all run the way you think it does

And several people have already contacted me, and it was one of your beloved members who asked me to resign up

It's a shame, I do like some people here, but you run this forum just so you can flex your muscles. Who else would listen to your gump?

I see donations have really changed your oppressive hand, what a tool

Last edited by BenJones; 01/22/17 01:47 AM.
#1123010 - 01/22/17 01:41 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: PopTodd]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,575
Little_stevie_b Offline
Top 50 Poster
Little_stevie_b  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,575
Hickory, North Carolina USA
Originally Posted by PopTodd
So far, we've only mentioned English-speaking songwriters. So, I feel the need to mention:
• Caetano Veloso
• Gilberto Gil
• Tom Zé
• Kurt Weil


Yeah, but they sing gibberish and I can't understand the words. Just like the French. I mean, it's like they have a different word for everything. cool

Stevie

#1123011 - 01/22/17 02:02 AM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: BenJones]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,825
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by BenJones
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
We have an obvious reincarnation again if there's anyone left who doesn't already know. Just think and read and you'll know it and if you can't figure it out, it's likely you.
.

Ahh don't like to see people getting along, and
Still sore I scooped you on selling out huh?

You asked if somebody with any intelligence would not want Bob Seeger to make money off of his song...yeah the artist himself,, he didn't want to do it, and he also turned down millions from beer companies. So you called Bob Seger unintelligent

The music world doesn't all run the way you think it does

And several people have already contacted me, and it was one of your beloved members who asked me to resign up

It's a shame, I do like some people here, but you run this forum just so you can flex your muscles. Who else would listen to your gump?

I see donations have really changed your oppressive hand, what a tool


Ah, but you see as the artist he gets to pick and choose what and when to take and why or why not... you as a fan have no such right... but I wouldn't expect you to understand such adult concepts nor make it very long without showing your true colors which you did earlier with another member. Of course everyone knew who you were, I just wondered if you did... so giving you a chance not to be a twit didn't last long, so I won't bother to wait next time you waste our time.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1123028 - 01/22/17 03:49 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
MidniteBob Offline
Top 100 Poster
MidniteBob  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
Raleigh, ya'll
It was a toss-up for me from his first post or two whether it was Bugsey or Aaron and was hoping I was wrong about it:-(

....sigh....

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1123033 - 01/22/17 06:14 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
MidniteBob Offline
Top 100 Poster
MidniteBob  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
Raleigh, ya'll
Hey Gang,

After that brief interlude, anyone wanna continue the fun with John V's intentions for having started this thread?

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1123035 - 01/22/17 07:00 PM Re: JPF list of best ever singer songwriters [Re: Little_stevie_b]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
MidniteBob Offline
Top 100 Poster
MidniteBob  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,707
Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Little_stevie_b
Originally Posted by PopTodd
So far, we've only mentioned English-speaking songwriters. So, I feel the need to mention:
• Caetano Veloso
• Gilberto Gil
• Tom Zé
• Kurt Weil


Yeah, but they sing gibberish and I can't understand the words. Just like the French. I mean, it's like they have a different word for everything. cool

Stevie


Thanks, Stevie, for giving me my first belly laugh of the day!!!!

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
AntonyRobWells, malcosica478, Daniel_Grenier, Marky34333, Emma
21217 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics119,301
Posts1,124,273
Members21,217
Average Posts Daily22
Most Online1,559
Sep 13th, 2019
Just Plain Quotes
"Sometimes, the best thing you can say, isn't the easiest thing" -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
Bill Robinson (75), Derek Hines (44), neoism (29)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0