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#1117309 - 10/10/16 10:11 PM Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad  
Joined: Feb 2006
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joyceonthekeys Offline
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joyceonthekeys  Offline
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My latest ASCAP royalties (domestic): $1.11. What's interesting is that amount is for the Internet and represents a total of 6,444 plays (yes, I added them) of 9 songs, from January to March of this year. So much for anyone who thinks music is a get rich quick path.

#1117314 - 10/10/16 10:34 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Absolutely Disgusting....ALL Songwriters should go on strike...
ALL we do is take it like a punching bag...

#1117315 - 10/10/16 10:46 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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Aaron Authier Offline
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Aaron Authier  Offline
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If MAB taught us anything it is do music as a hobby and don't expect to make money.

#1117557 - 10/13/16 01:07 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: Aaron Authier]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Well, unless you have a HUGE platform with fan base. Performing artists are more likely to generate revenue because they are out there, constantly meeting people and building face for face relationships. The Internet has so many people and so many songs, it will always be difficult to monetize anything just from that. And it will also be hard to monetize things with a "live only" approach. Both have negatives and positives. But it is all still going to be a "supply and demand" situation, no matter how you slice it.

Do it as a hobby until you can get it to take over for your "real job" or at least to be used as a supplimental income.
Appreciate anything you get.

The biggest problem in music of any stripe is that it costs money to develop,record and promote it. And often it never recoups what is put into it.

MAB

#1117565 - 10/13/16 01:51 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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BobDobbins Offline
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Originally Posted by joyceonthekeys
My latest ASCAP royalties (domestic): $1.11. What's interesting is that amount is for the Internet and represents a total of 6,444 plays (yes, I added them) of 9 songs, from January to March of this year. So much for anyone who thinks music is a get rich quick path.

That's more than I've ever made!
=Bob=

#1120941 - 12/14/16 01:25 AM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Jim Colyer Offline
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I made a little money in my BMI years but have been with ASCAP since 2001 and have not made one cent.

#1120958 - 12/14/16 01:26 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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To me, this conversation has always been a case of flawed thinking into who or what artists are. Artists aren't just a bunch of people sitting around waiting for the "perfect song to drop out of the sky for them." They are people who have been involved with writing their own songs, their own emotions their own life's experiences for many years. They live this. They don't NEED someone they don't know, or even care about, to put words in their mouths.

They have uprooted their lives or work continually at their art and craft. They deal with trying to juggle multiple jobs. they most often uproot their lives to move to another complete society, or they spend all their waking hours trying to find ways to expand their reach and fan base.

The idea of some outside person "mailing in" some song to someone they not only don't know but don't know ANYTHING ABOUT is something that has been a dead concept for about 4 decades. Listening to songs from outside sources is something that is so foreign to modern day artists, it doesn't even fall into the realm of possibility.

Just like the Beatles ended the outside writer in the 60's-70's, the Internet ended the ability for anyone outside a tight circle to get songs anywhere. It has enabled people to build relationships, but almost all of those have to be started in person, face to face.

Getting to know people in your own areas, furthering relationships with those people through the Internet writing songs WITH those people, are distinct possibilities. But if you can't pick up a phone or have the private email of a person involved with that artist, the producer or the artist themselves, you have no chance of getting anything to them.

And look at it from the other side. If someone demonstrated NO INTEREST in getting to know YOU, what chance would they have in getting you to do something FOR THEM, and completely forget your OWN efforts?

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

MAB

#1120962 - 12/14/16 02:15 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Well,
In the old days most artists didn't write their own songs. I don't think Frank Sinatra ever wrote a song. Elvis never wrote a song. Eddy may have wrote a few. Webb may have wrote a few. Most of the big Artists didn't write songs. With all the songs and variety available to them from publishing houses they didn't need to. I guess it is different today. The big Record Labels want the Artist to write his own songs as it cuts down on the royalties they have to pay. Not sure the last time a big artist had a hit with a song they wrote. Mechanical Royalties are not much. Public Performance Royalties only pay if the song is a huge hit.
Who is accepting outside songs today? Probably no one.


Ray E. Strode
#1120976 - 12/14/16 03:36 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Ray, it is several things, economics are one ,but mostly because artists write their own songs since they are signed as WRITERS FIRST. They have their OWN OPINIONS, THEIR OWN FEELINGS, THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES. They get with people who they have built LIFELONG RELATIONSHIPS WITH. These people share their lives, their ups, their downs. they go through their divorces. They are around when their kids are born. They are extended families when they leave their homes and families. They help the artists when they first get to town.

And most artists now are signed to label deals AFTER they have a hit song on someone else. So you are talking about trying to put songs that "sound like stuff on the radio" to the people who already HAVE stuff on the radio.

Almost every writer you see on the charts now, have had cuts or hits on other artists BEFORE they got their artist deals. They have also been writing, building relationships and living in the town for an average of 5-10 years BEFORE their success starts coming in. That is why it is called a TEN YEAR TOWN.

The biggest current artists out there, CHRIS STAPLETON, MAREN MORRIS, KACEY MUSGROVES, pretty much any artist out there have had HUGE HITS before they got their artist deals. So there is not even a choice when it comes to the matter. Royalties are a part of the equation, because companies are investing enormous amounts of money in the artists careers, but it is simply keeping things inside a business. You don't OUTSOURCE anymore.

From the 20's-to the 1960's, there was a definate line of deliniation between writers and artists. Writers wrote, Tin Pan Alley, Motown, etc. artists performed.

That ended in 1964 in pop and rock with the Beatles. Although at the same time, with people like Smokey Robinson and Marvin Gaye at Motown, artists were ALSO writers. With the "singer/songwriter" era of the 1970's, outside cuts ended in all of rock and pop.With very few exceptions, like Dianne Warren, but those are the dinosaurs that will soon be totally gone.

In country, this began to fade out in the late 90's into the 2000's. The way it works now, is people move to town with the intention of being artists. They spend years writing and building relationships. They find their way into the back doors of publishers or hit writers, who bring them under their wings. They spend years there in an internship if you will, under the tutalige of the hit or established writers.

AT some point, hopefully, they get cuts on other artists. If the cuts are substantial enough, and there is enough fan base or potential for artist deals (most continue performing in their home towns and regions) they are given artist development deals (or probably have had them for years while they are developing their writing skills.) And they become the hit writers. After a while on the charts, they form their own publishing and production companies and develop OTHER artists for themselves.

The main reason for this is people starting to write at earlier ages. They start at 13-15 years old. So by the time they are 18-21, they are experienced writers and artists.

Believe me, THEY DON'T NEED OUTSIDE SONGS.

So just like pop ended the outside writer in the 60's, the Internet and modern business ended the outside cuts in country, folk, blues, and all other forms of music. You either make relationships with artists early in their careers, or you die. Period.

As Mike used to say, "ADAPT OR DIE." Relationships are the adaptation. Can either do it or die.

Choice is yours.

MAB

#1121783 - 01/01/17 09:21 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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pathardy Offline
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Originally Posted by joyceonthekeys
My latest ASCAP royalties (domestic): $1.11. What's interesting is that amount is for the Internet and represents a total of 6,444 plays (yes, I added them) of 9 songs, from January to March of this year. So much for anyone who thinks music is a get rich quick path.



Joyce, here's what I say to songwriters:

Hey, it's always been that way. I had 10,000 terrestrial radio spins ( ASCAP statement ), and made I think 2 bucks. But, in the world of radio, internet, in order to make any money,
even a million spins is an insignificant amount. A million spins on radio is nothing, really. Hit songs often get BILLIONS of spins, placed on heavy rotation on tens of thousands of radio stations throughout the world, and that's when you make money. Nothing, really, has changed since I was a kid in the 50s. ON the other hand, internet streams
seem to pay much less that radio, and there I think criticism is legit, a stream should
be as valuable as a radio spin, and today, it's not.

the best way for us non-hit writers to make money is to get music placed in film/TV and commercials, there we have a fighting chance to make a living, it's all about master use and sync licensing fees, which are anywhere from nothing (MTV doesn't pay license fees, I'm told ), $500 to $3K for run of the mill indie placements, and I've seen them as high as $50k ( for opening or closing song, or a prominently placed song in a stronger indie production, name actors, etc, or international ad campaign ), it all depends on the deal.





Last edited by pathardy; 01/01/17 09:30 PM.
#1121867 - 01/03/17 02:56 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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This is always the BOTTOM LINE when it comes to the music business and the primary reason that there are no outside cuts in the major leagues. As more and more people are doing this, it takes MORE and more STREAMS, PLAYS, ATTENTION to get money out of it. Recorded music has ALWAYS been an ADVERTISEMENT for people to get to know and want to be a part of a singer's career.

People didn't go insane over versions of "HOUND DOG" by Big Mama Thorton, or "BLUE SUEDE SHOES" by Carl Perkins. They went CRAZY OVER ELVIS' HIPS!!! And swagger, and all the other things that went with his celebrity.
It has always been that way. Which is why every writer should be focused more on finding and developing ARTISTS, much more than trying to make money on songs. Songs are nothing without an artist.

And it is harder and harder to get attention even from the artists. So you have to "up the level of your odds" by having killer songs AND killer artists.

If there is going to be relatively little money anyway, artists are going to record what THEY write. And since art and all music is SUBJECTIVE, who is to say they are wrong?

Just another section of the business of music, everyone has to be aware of.

MAB

#1121878 - 01/03/17 05:48 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Everything you said is true except...not everyone can write. In fact, most can't...no matter who they know. They can learn the mechanics but that's it.

And that's why my visit to Home Depot yesterday blessed me with 30 minutes of modern country music. The most insipid, forgettable background air pudding I'd heard in a while. Although those songs were penned by four or five people who've built "relationships" and shmoozed with the artist, they're still weaker than near beer. Without expensive videos and big promo bucks, they're all zeros. They're not Smokey, or Ellie Greenwich.

And I do have a choice...I won't buy it or listen to it unless forced to. Killer songs? Killer artists? Where?

Just write your song. Don't hit it big? You’ll be fine. Just ask Whitney and Michael and Prince and George and...

Last edited by couchgrouch; 01/03/17 05:48 PM.
#1121890 - 01/03/17 08:00 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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BenJones Offline
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Yes indeed, only this guy couch grouch can write, Nobody else. Not sure if you even disagree with that yourself, which has me hummin.

First of all good and bad is subjective. Play the top Beatles albums to a 15 year old kid, they think it sucks. I mean, they don't even feel bad about saying it, no reverence at all, "that's the worst music I've ever heard"

That has always been the case, older people never liked he kids music, and that's not going to change.

Secondly I'm guessing couch grouch is in his 50s because you never hear somebody in their twenties complaining about modern music.

Music is subjective, what we think is great is irrelevant.

I agree that there are objective things in songwriting, just as there are objective parts of music that expert musicians can debate.

If you google pat methenys take on Kenny g as a musician, he destroys him in a blog that went viral, objectively running down why he sucks as a musician, and when it's pat metheny, I believe him.

But that doesn't mean people don't like Kenny g, he is the biggest selling jazz artist of all time

. Great songwriting is something other songwriters battle out, a listeners objective is not too try and determine who is the most skilled songwriter or not, they don't care, it's not their job to care, it's their prerogative to listen and enjoy whatever the hell they want

The other thing is songwriting is only one part of the whole picture. You have melody, you have lyric, you have arrangement, you have sound, you have artist, you have singer, you have rcording and production.

I often wonder why nobody complains about wooly bully, or wild thing, or any other substance lacking song that has withstood the test of time.

Is wild thing great songwriting? Does anybody care?

It's easy to over estimate your role, especially as a lyricist, you have to remember nobody is out there looking to praise your lyrics, they only do that here, because that is e purpose of this site.

I can't even listen to the radio today, I think it's so bad, but my ears come from another era, as I'm guessing most here does.

Why should an artist care. If they have an audience, why the hell do they need you, or more, why the hell do they need the best songwriters in the world?

People listen to recordings of songs, they don't listen to songs. Sometimes music is about the melody, sometimes it's about he lyric, sometimes it's about the sound, sometimes it's about the singer, sometimes it's about the vibe

So if the lyrics account for a safe estimate,5 % of the success of a song, just a thought, but if that's the case, your trying to get your beak wet in something where even if you played a 100% role, your chances are nil, add in that your part is dirt on that numbers shoes, and there you .

Just about any song can be produced and polished into a big hit song, that millions love, yours is not special in anyway.

And I'm sure many artists would look at your stuff and say that it's crap too.

songwriters are a dime a dozen, live with it.

Last edited by BenJones; 01/03/17 09:01 PM.
#1121901 - 01/03/17 09:49 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Well,
Every so called Artist can't write many good songs. Just ask George Jones. OK George is gone. He tried to write songs and admitted he wasn't very good at it. The Major Record Labels as well as a lot of minor ones have told me they want artists that write their own songs. Most of them are poor songwriters. But you don't have to take my word for it, just listen to the radio!


Ray E. Strode
#1121903 - 01/03/17 09:57 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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BenJones Offline
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But again, what person out there listening to the radio is asking" how come this song is not well written?

I just gave an example of wild thing, it's still covered at any bar I go to, nobody cares if it's not a great song, it's a great listening experience, that's why people listen

If it mattered if th songwriting was better, ther would be better songwriting, but it doesn't. You just mentioned a guy George jones

He said he didn't write very well, yet you know who he is, he was successful

Songwriting is still subjective. Even great writers can't agree one what's great and what isn't. If it was a matter of fact, there would be only one answer

Last edited by BenJones; 01/03/17 09:58 PM.
#1121916 - 01/04/17 12:11 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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We all have different taste, be it food, clothing or music. Beer is an acquired taste, I hate it but others love it, I like sweet food, others don't, they may like salty or spicy food, I don't. We are in an era of so so music, those that grew up on it loves it, give them classical music, they hate it. Junk food is what todays teens love and eat, it may ruin their health ten years down the road, but they will not change their diet for health food today. They blast their music directly into their ears but down the road they will all need hearing aids long before they reach old age. They like what they like and can't understand why everyone don't like it. Human nature.

#1121920 - 01/04/17 01:09 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Couchgrouch,

There are amazing songs out there. And amazing writers. You ask where? You should listen to one of the people over here, Kurt Fortmeyer, and you would hear songs that knock your socks off. Will they ever make it "out there?" Well in many cases they are. But not on a mainstream record label.

There are many writers and songs here and unfortunately they don't all get the attention they deserve. And that is a long standing tradition in music. Even the major writers don't get eveything thing cut. But the higher the level the song and writer the better his/her chances of getting attention is.

Does that mean they all make it to the radio? NOPE. There are many things that most people skip over. But there is an audience, actually a HUGE audience for it because those people on the radio are actually earning enough money to be signed back and continually supported by their fan base. So just because it is something you don't find worthy, actually means you are in a pretty small minority.

That is another tradition that has always happened in music. You move into your 30's and 40's and radio leaves you behind. You are no longer a target audience and your opinion no longer matters in eyes of the industry.

Music is very subjective and new music replaces old. Has always happened. People can complain but it really doesn't matter at all.

MAB

#1121957 - 01/05/17 02:24 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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I stand by what I said. Most people can't write, including artists. Who you know or associate with won't grant you writing talent.
Just ask Roger Daltrey. Or Levon Helm.

There's a dearth of innovative songwriting and
recording and it's been growing steadily worse since the late 70s. I don't include Nashville in that because Nashville has always been...Nashville. they have the best studios, session cats and singers in the world. But thousands of classic albums and songs came of pop and rock in the 60s and 70s. How many from Nashville? A few, at most. My first demo session I overheard the players talking music...Abbey Road, Pet Sounds and The Eagles.
Johnny Cash's American Recordings? How many songs by Music Row writers? Zero. Those are his best records.

Kendrick Lamar doesn't compare to The Doors.
Mariah Carey...not that impressive. Aw Naw? Not my favorite. Everyone's free to disagree and let their view be proven right by their work.

#1121960 - 01/05/17 03:04 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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BenJones Offline
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Here we go again. "Let their view be proven right by their work"

You dont seem to get it chief.

Let's assume you are a pretty good writer....

Does that make you an expert on what is great? on every song that comes along?

When an artist records a song. Lets take your Roger Daltry example. Do you think that because Daltry cant write, that he has no idea if a song is good? He has solo albums, Rocks In The Head, you can find it in a discount rack for 2 bucks. Album was written by songwriters for him. extremely underrated pop/rock album btw.

What you are saying is that you know a better song more than Roger Daltry does. That is exactly what your saying whether you realize it or not?

Im willing to put up a grand Daltry has a pretty damn good idea what a great song is. like wise Garth Brooks, or any artist where people write songs for them. And 2 to 1 moreso than you do

Your logic is flawed chief.

Your opinon is great, Im sure many agree the doors are better than Kendrik Lamar.

I can appreciate your opinion, but it's not the only one.

And writers in Nashville writing for other artists, dont have free reign. Jim Morrison style songs are not wanted, they are for the doors to perform, and not much else.

I think you might take yourself a bit seriously. I assume you have spent alot of time honing your craft. But at the end of the day, it comes down to people liking it.

Your song I listened to, Silver Bay. What is your honest assessment, are you capable of making one?

Is this song better than anything that a Nashville writer has written? Keep in mind that everybody believes their music is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I thought the very first song I wrote after coming home from my first guitar lesson was going to catapult me to super stardom, I believed that probably for a day or two.

Want my opinion? It's nice solid song, with a nice vocal and recording. It's not obvious by any stretch that a superior songwriter wrote it. It sounds on par with a solid song posted every day on soundcloud.

But you could be the greatest writer of all time, your not expert of my enjoyment of music.


Last edited by BenJones; 01/05/17 03:07 PM.
#1121961 - 01/05/17 03:09 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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By the way Couch. I'm not sure if you missed the 90's, but Garth Brooks sold more records than ANY ARTIST IN HISTORY. Over 100 MILLION records. And much of that coming into the era of FREE music. That was ALL NASHVILLE WRITERS.

Sorry that your theory doesn't hold out very well in light or reality. It is an opinion and a theory based upon your own biases. But that is what it is. A theory not backed up by any reality of facts. Sorry. Every once and while you have to just realize you are only one opinion.

#1121963 - 01/05/17 03:26 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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One of the main differences between being a songwriter/musician or being almost anything else is that there is no barrier to entry. You don't need anything but paper and a pencil. No license, no test, no degree, no diploma, no anything. Even someone digging a hole in the ground may need a building permit! So there is a proliferation of people who want to be songwriters, some good, some bad. But way more than is needed for the number of songs being played or recorded. So consistent with the law of supply and demand, the pay sucks.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1121976 - 01/05/17 06:22 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Very true Colin. It is the "facebook era" of Free Music. Everyone is a writer. Everyone is an artist. Everyone is a critic.
Most are pretty mediocre. I have to believe that there are always breakthroughs, always standouts, always songs and artists that prove there is still hope, although it gets tough to believe sometimes.

But just because so much other garbage is out there, doesn't give any of us the excuse to shoot for the lowest common denominator.

Be true to yourself. Write things that matter. Touch people's lives.

Ought to be the only thing to be concerned with.

MAB

#1121977 - 01/05/17 06:35 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Marc, I think you're talking US album sales, not total records sold worldwide. Quite a few artists have outsold Garth. This in spite of Garth selling his cds at a discount at McDonald's. Selling 10 cd boxsets at Wal-Mart for $10 and iTunes bundles for dirt cheap. And
I have nothing against Garth at all. I really like No Fences and many, many of his songs. But citing one guy over 25 years ago proves my point, not yours. Garth is the exception, not
The rule. So is Taylor Swift, whom I have a very high regard for. I also highly respect Matraca Berg.From memory, I can list a dozen classic, timeless albums from 1969. That's not even counting Motown, Stax, Muscle Shoals etc who specialized in singles, not albums. If you want to prove your point, list some great Nashville albums. Good luck. Even the best Tim Mcgraw cd is half filler.

Don't take it personally...watch a tv show. Whenever country is mentioned, it's the butt of a joke. I'm not alone in my view...I'm just willing to say it publicly. And I have a rep as a writer so my view has some weight.

Nashville has been very good to me. I have no complaints there. But it's too infected with GroupThink to allow much innovation. That results in bland, insipid product.

#1121996 - 01/06/17 12:28 AM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette

Be true to yourself. Write things that matter. Touch people's lives.

Ought to be the only thing to be concerned with.

MAB


Wise words. smile

While an album doesn't need to be "innovative" to be good, I tend to agree with Mr. George, in that great albums generally DO take some risks, and are usually made by tried-and-true..artists.

"Group think" and "artist" are kind of at odds with each other, at least in the Western World. Kind of like autuer theory vs. "test screening" in the world of movies. Robert Altman has fun with this idea in his movie "The Player" when they have a test screening (of the movie that's made from the script that is the centerpiece of Altman's movie), and the ending is an epic fail in terms of audience response, and so it gets re-written (into a happy ending with Julia Roberts and Bruce Willis all smiles) and it's hilarious because although it scored high in audience response and it's a happily-ever-after kind scenerio, it's totally wrong for the movie and is laugh-out-loud funny watching Willis burst in and save the day.

Granted country albums are far stronger than they were in the prior era of singles, when a George Jones or a Ray Price would rush to get their albums finished so that they'd garner high sales while "The Grand Tour" or "For The Good Times" was at the top of the Country Singles chart. In fact, in this modern era of singles (ie cherry-picking songs on Itunes), Country albums feel deep, in terms of potential singles..but what they generally lack, in my opinion, is a strong artistic voice that has some kind of overriding vision that translates into something immersive and enlightening.

But who cares, really? In Nashville, craft seems to be more important than art. And so country albums these days are of the highest caliber, craft-wise. Most folks that listen to country don't listen to hear an artistic "inner-voice" that will help guide them through the stormy seas of their daily lives. That seems to be the domain of the Dylans' and the Springsteens' and the Mitchells' of the world.

I imagine modern country music customers are right at home, cherry-picking their music from Itunes, and these songs can and do mean as much to their audience as (perhaps) pop and hip-hop do to theirs.

So maybe Marc and Couch are talking about two different things? There is craft and there is art. Marc seems to be talking craft and Robert--art.

Artistic vision gets lost in group think. Artistic vision tends to take more risks, and risk seems anathema to Major record labels that want the greatest return with the lowest risk.

One must proceed through craft to get to art. Meaning..even Picasso had to ape the painters of his day--to learn the rules--before he could break them. Art without craft is simply "primitive."

And so sometimes a Country Artist will feel that artistic impulse that says "follow your inner voice" and then they make--maybe not a great album, but at least one that only a real "artist" with a singular vision could make. Rosanne Cash is a good example. At the height of her commercial (Nashville Country) success with "King's Record Shop" (five singles?) she decided to make a really personal album called "Interiors" and Columbia Nashville rejected the record. This after she had produced album after hit album (five total) for Columbia Nashville! So she moved to New York, met John Levanthal (future husband and producer} and went on to make "Interiors" and "The Wheel" for CBS's pop division, before leaving the label, and while neither possess big singles like "Seven Year Ache," these are arguable Cash's best records, in terms of passion and thematic coherence and they spoke to a generation of women that needed her strong inner voice. The inner voice of one who, in order to be "true to herself" --to be a real artist--had to leave Nashville in order to do so.

Are those Cash albums "great" ..? Maybe not. But the potential for greatness, album wise, was there in New York--given that she had more freedom to be herself. At least that's how I feel album "great albums" etc.

Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1122000 - 01/06/17 04:48 AM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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BenJones Offline
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As I said above, anybody over 40 probably feels the same way about music.

We don't have anybody here who is young enough to tell us off about it

Of course we think it's better, we grew up with our music.

You can't overlook your connection to the music when evaluating it as I said nobody here is going to say older music is not better

I feel the same way but that doesn't make me right

I have heard jazz musicians degrading all forms of music, anything but jazz and classical is garbage, crap, money oriented, fluff, entertainment purposes only, not real music.

Are they right? The amount of skill and talent it takes to be a professional jazz musician is unimaginable, you need to spend your whole life practicing your instrument. But if anybody has claim to a strong opinion it's a grant jazz musician.

Yet in the end that's just another opinion

They can't see anything less as having value.

As Colin ward said before, there is not enough room for everybody

I understand your art and craft point. But how much freedom does a Nashville writer have to write outside the box? He's not in a rock band like pink Floyd, where he has a record deal and can make his art come to life.

He has to offer his song to another artist. He pitches
to an artist who is trying to do something in the business. He's trying to get on the radio with his record, he's not trying to change societies view on relationships or philosophy

He's much more limited. But to say these writers suck is really ignorant, you do t know what they are capable of

That's like saying a guy who plays three chords in a bar band is a crap musicians cause he only knows three chords. How do you know what he knows?

And this notion that you have to be a great songwriter to know a great song is stupid too, that's like saying if your ugly, that you can't tell when some woman is pretty

Or that you have to be really really smart to know somebody else is really really smart

Bottom line couch opinions are like everyone else's, we all got em





Last edited by BenJones; 01/06/17 04:55 AM.
#1122009 - 01/06/17 07:31 AM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: BenJones]  
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pathardy Offline
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pathardy  Offline
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Originally Posted by BenJones

If you google pat methenys take on Kenny g as a musician, he destroys him in a blog that went viral, objectively running down why he sucks as a musician, and when it's pat metheny, I believe him.

But that doesn't mean people don't like Kenny g, he is the biggest selling jazz artist of all time





I'll have to disagree with Pat, but I respect him as a musician, he's amazing.
But, Kenny G sold 40 million albums, and no one in the pop music industry doubts he is a soulful player. He isn't as accomplished as Pat, but to say he sucks, I can't agree with that, either. I mean, 40 million albums? I wish I could suck like that.

#1122011 - 01/06/17 11:28 AM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: BenJones]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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Saint Petersburg. FL
Originally Posted by BenJones

I have heard jazz musicians degrading all forms of music, anything but jazz and classical is garbage, crap, money oriented, fluff, entertainment purposes only, not real music.


Seems to me the only reason music exists is to entertain. What's wrong with music that's entertaining? You probably know the difference between a rock guitar player and a jazz guitar player.......

the jazz guitar player plays a thousand chords for three people while a rock guitar player plays three chords for a thousand people.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1122019 - 01/06/17 12:41 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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Everett Adams  Online Content
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the jazz guitar player plays a thousand chords for three people while a rock guitar player plays three chords for a thousand people. [/quote]

LOL I like that.

#1122021 - 01/06/17 12:49 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: pathardy]  
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BenJones Offline
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@ Pat Hardy, I agree it's you, but I have to say that most real jazz musicians say the same thing.

The article is on the site called jazz oasis. I referred a friend of mine there, he plays jazz. He told me he didn't have an opinion at all on Kenny g but what he hears in inner circles is that Kenny g was a joke to jazz music, he was considered a hack musician, and most of th didnt like when he used Louis armstrongs recording to overdub on.

I think pat metheny is probably accurate in his musician analysis, he has no reason to lie about it.

And most jazz musicians never make any money, so I'm sure there is some jealousy involed with Kenny g

But the point was, what does musicianship really mean? What does songwriting really mean? It's something other jazz musicians and other songwriters debate, just because something is considered by your peers to be great, doesn't mean people will like it.

Jazz can get a very tedious. It takes years to even understand jazz, it takes trained ears to even listen to it

And it's all about look at me, I'm playing 6 chords per measure! I think it can alienate the average listener

Last edited by BenJones; 01/06/17 12:51 PM.
#1122022 - 01/06/17 12:54 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: Colin Ward]  
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BenJones Offline
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BenJones  Offline
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Yes,most of jazz audience is other jazz musicians. That was my point really

The average listener listen for enjoyment, not to marvel at your skill set. Even if they listen to a famous guitar player like Clapton, it's not to sit and say ok, he's playing melodic minor runs here, and listen to him change to arpeggios in the middle...it's more, this piece makes me feel a certain way.

I think that's the differnce

#1122036 - 01/06/17 04:45 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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BenJones Offline
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Here are the links. The first is kind of just a basic jab on your tube, but the detailed spanking came online, in methenys defense, he said he wrote that for his serious listeners to read, he made a mistake publishing it, he never meant for it to get out there, but it did, lesson learned abiut internet. But these remarks come from an absolute master in his field. Yet, does it change anybody's mind? Does Kenny g still have an audience? Does it matter one bit?

Wedo have one difference, these opinions are from an accomplished master of jazz music

Apply that to this threads highlights...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X-mjt1ypiF8

http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm

Last edited by BenJones; 01/06/17 04:47 PM.
#1125241 - 03/12/17 12:33 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Bernd Harmsen Offline
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Bernd Harmsen  Offline
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Nobody ever said that you could generate conciderable income from the internet. Except if your are REAL big. The royalties combined for artists, label, and creators are about 0.5 cent per stream (that's Spotify, the numbers differ from service to service and depend on their revenues from advertising). The creator's share in this is about 10%. Joyce's songs must have done exceptionally well since they generated three times as much.
[I must correct this: Joyce only made a third of what could be expected, possibly ASCAP take their share first]

If you compare internet streams to the number listeners on the radio listeners you might get a more realistic valuation of what may be suitable. Streams should generate more because the users actively choose songs - but not that much more. You cannot equate them with sales (downloads). A single download from Amazon makes about $ 0,70, or 7 cents for the creators - not that bad, is it?

Live performances actually DO generate licenses, i.e. royalties. In the US you must make sure that the artists you write for hand in their setlists because there is no legal regulation (the collected roalties normally go directly to the chart leaders). Life is a bit easier on this side of the Atlantic ;-)

IMO it's not as bad as people make it seem - as long as you look at things realistically.

But as has been said: the fun you have creating music is what actually counts!

Have fun ;-)

Bernd

Last edited by Bernd Harmsen; 03/13/17 10:04 AM.

Bernd
[url]http://bernd-harmsen.com[/url]
#1125242 - 03/12/17 12:53 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
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Bernd,

I don't think they are anywhere near 5 cents per stream. Maybe ,003 cents per stream, or 3K dollars per million listens. That is the rate I am seeing. After all, they only play one ad per 30 minutes of music or app. 8 songs. They aren't getting 40 cents per ad to break even per listener. Not even Superbowl ads cost that much I don't think.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#1125244 - 03/12/17 01:09 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: Bernd Harmsen]  
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Trentb Offline
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Trentb  Offline
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Originally Posted by Bernd Harmsen
Nobody ever said that you could generate conciderable income from the internet. Except if your are REAL big. The royalties combined for artists, label, and creators are about 0.5 cent per stream (that's Spotify, the numbers differ from service to service and depend on their revenues from advertising). The creator's share in this is about 10%. Joyce's songs must have done exceptionally well since they generated three times as much. If you compare internet streams to the number listeners on the radio listeners you might get a more realistic valuation of what may be suitable. Streams should generate more because the users actively choose songs - but not that much more. You cannot equate them with sales (downloads). A single download from Amazon makes about $ 0,70, or 7 cents for the creators - not that bad, is it? Live performances actually DO generate licenses, i.e. royalties. In the US you must make sure that the artists you write for hand in their setlists because there is no legal regulation (the collected roalties normally go directly to the chart leaders). Life is a bit easier on this side of the Atlantic ;-) IMO it's not as bad as people make it seem - as long as you look at things realistically. But as has been said: the fun you have creating music is what actually counts! Have fun ;-) Bernd


It's actually worse than most people make it out to be. It's all great for the listener, no doubt about that, but bad for profits in music. It's good that people have acces to your music, and they can hear your song, when they probably wouldn't have otherwise, but even the top artists in the world are complainin

I read an article with roger Daley of the who, somebody asked him if he will make another album with the who, he basically said...are you kidding me?

He said I'd like to, but what is the point, you can't make money on recorded music. The interviewer said what about streaming? He said streaming my azz, nobody is making money on recordings any more, and I'm not going to finance the new album myself with my own money. And that's a rock legend talking

Most indies are lucky to make 1000 in their whole career.

If yiu get 1000 streams or downloads, you probably hit the lottery. You just can't get enough people to listen to make even the pennies you could be making

#1125245 - 03/12/17 01:17 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Trentb Offline
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#1125246 - 03/12/17 01:54 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Well,
I did buy 4 CD's from a Catalog this month. Not new music but one I did want. And my post of What's in Your CD Player just keeps growing so someone is still looking for and maybe buying music. But my advice as many others say Don't give up your day job!


Ray E. Strode
#1125254 - 03/12/17 04:30 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Trentb Offline
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Trentb  Offline
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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Well, I did buy 4 CD's from a Catalog this month. Not new music but one I did want. And my post of What's in Your CD Player just keeps growing so someone is still looking for and maybe buying music. But my advice as many others say Don't give up your day job!
Oh, listening to music is as big as ever. Technology has made so many ways to listen to music. What's changed is nobody is buying it, it's free. The people making money are the people making the technology.

I'm guessing people saying they are listening by way of cd maybe gilting the lilly a bit. I haven't listened to a cd in a couple of years

Last edited by Trentb; 03/12/17 04:49 PM.
#1126096 - 04/01/17 05:02 PM Re: Songwriter Performance Royalties - Sad [Re: joyceonthekeys]  
Joined: Jul 2005
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Bob Cushing Offline
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cincinnati oh usa
Originally Posted by joyceonthekeys
My latest ASCAP royalties (domestic): $1.11. What's interesting is that amount is for the Internet and represents a total of 6,444 plays (yes, I added them) of 9 songs, from January to March of this year. So much for anyone who thinks music is a get rich quick path.

Yup, I made a grand total of $74 and change last year. I have 6 albums on every Touch Tunes Juke Box in the world, am on Spotify, Pandora, I-Heart radio, Sound Cloud, ect, and have had songs placed in T.V shows. Where's that yacht I've been saving for?


bc

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