Who's Online Now
22 registered members (chilipily, Calvin, Dave Rice, Fdemetrio, Colin Ward, David Snyder, couchgrouch, Barry David Butler, 9ne, Jody Whitesides, 2 invisible), and 243 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Posts: 4,192
Joined: November 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
by Travis david. 11/20/17 05:44 AM
Say Cheese and Smile
by Travis david. 11/20/17 05:43 AM
Did she talk about me? Travis and Vic
by Travis david. 11/20/17 05:38 AM
Christmas Truck_It's Never Too Early
by Travis david. 11/20/17 05:36 AM
JPF Virtual Telethon II
by Roy Cooper. 11/20/17 04:52 AM
I Remember Autumn
by Dave Rice. 11/20/17 12:43 AM
Stinking Politicians / What's So Damn Funny
by Barry David Butler. 11/19/17 07:28 PM
Dropping IMDb...
by John Lawrence Schick. 11/19/17 06:21 PM
Having Fun 7
by David Snyder. 11/19/17 03:16 PM
Can You Catch My Soul - spiritual
by David Snyder. 11/19/17 02:49 PM
I Will Stand By You
by Vicarn. 11/19/17 01:59 PM
When Blue Turns To Gray
by Moosesong. 11/19/17 12:51 PM
The Sounds Of Silence
by Ray E. Strode. 11/19/17 11:09 AM
Suite: Monster
by Travis david. 11/19/17 06:24 AM
Making Great Demos with BIAB
by Martin Lide. 11/18/17 07:27 PM
We Need Real Farmers (Revised)
by Neil Cotton. 11/18/17 03:57 PM
Love Is Contagious
by Barry David Butler. 11/18/17 03:50 PM
On Top Of The Heap
by Neil Cotton. 11/18/17 02:47 PM
With The Gods Above
by Michael LeBlanc. 11/18/17 11:09 AM
"I Believe"
by Barry David Butler. 11/18/17 08:06 AM
Mountains Reached for the Heavens (Till They Kisse
by Travis david. 11/18/17 02:50 AM
Hard Promise
by Travis david. 11/18/17 02:47 AM
This is for Love
by lane1777. 11/17/17 10:47 PM
"Live A Life Of Grace"
by Barry David Butler. 11/17/17 10:35 PM
Daily Distractions 11-17-17
by Barry David Butler. 11/17/17 10:13 PM
"If You Knew"
by PopTodd. 11/17/17 09:00 PM
Time Machine/1882 in New York City
by David Snyder. 11/17/17 08:35 PM
I Want More
by TC Perkins. 11/17/17 07:59 PM
by Barry David Butler. 11/17/17 12:54 PM
Love Goes
by Lingbeek. 11/17/17 09:30 AM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,188
Kevin Emmrich 10,531
Jean Bullock 10,330
Travis david 10,302
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,571
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,746
Mike Dunbar 8,574
glynda 8,560
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,822
Corey 7,357
couchgrouch 7,213
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,428
Joe Wrabek 6,400
Dave Rice 6,194
ben willis 6,069
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,718
Linda Sings 5,601
niteshift 5,323
Vicarn 5,236
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,605
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,344
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Cindy Miller 4,178
Tom Shea 4,173
Neil Cotton 4,132
nightengale 3,964
TamsNumber4 3,962
Roy Cooper 3,897
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,760
Dan Sullivan 3,710
MFB III 3,687
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
beechnut79 3,253
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
E Swartz 2,922
PopTodd 2,874
Harriet Ames 2,868
Nigel Quin 2,802
MidniteBob 2,687
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Nelson 2,404
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,241
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
Wendy D 2,151
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
Ray Thyer 1,929
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
maccharles 1,770
floyd jane 1,713
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Noel Downs 1,620
Iggy 1,592
Cal 1,574
Rick Heenan 1,561
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,451
RogerS 1,445
Ralph Blight 1,440
Chuck Crowe 1,435
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,427
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,406
Stan Simons 1,402
in2piano 1,399
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,300
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
GocartMoz 1,261
Janice & Bud 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
PeteG 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
Glen King 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
summeoyo 1,083
Gerry 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
joro 1,045
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
lane1777 930
Jak Kelly 912
IronKnee 894
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
90 dB 745
tbryson 737
Andy K 733
Andy Kemp 732
Jackie444 720
ant 710
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
9ne 607
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
Pat Hardy 580
qbaum 570
nitepiano 565
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
Irwin 526
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
Moosesong 508
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
R&M 444
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 398
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
Cecilee 376
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Alek 352
Z - man 350
John K 348
JamesDF5 347
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
Chris B. 310
trush 304
Deej56 303
ed323 297
Ellen M 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
pomeranj 289
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#1112611 - 08/08/16 04:32 PM Another Collab Agreement rant  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 580
Pat Hardy Offline
Top 500 Poster
Pat Hardy  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 580
Collaboration agreements are a bit of a touchy subject. Yeah, I know the feeling, y'all just wanna write a song,
do a handshake, and "no egos", etc etc.

Okay, how about this scenario. You're the music creator, and someone else is the lyricist. Okay, you do a demo,
and you pay for the demo, but the lyricist does not. And, you are offered a "master and sync" license for your song, like $3k.
Well, your lyricist didn't contribute to the master, didn't perform or sing, nothing, so I guess you are the owner of it, and you get the master use
fee, though you share in the sync, but are these fees separated in the fee/contract you are offered?
Oh, you hired some union musicians? Oops, music publisher wants work-for-hire agreements from all of them. ( but it was a long time ago, and you can't find them now? ). however, your handshake agreement you said you'd split everythiong 50/50, so I guess
even though they contributed nothing to the master, they do own it, 'cause you have no collab saying otherwise, eh? Well,
I don't know. ( I always get collabs signed, spelling these things out, lessoned learned years ago ).

This is one minuteua ( I never could spell that word ) of things that might happen.

Here's another thing: I spend most of my time trying to get my songs in film and TV, ( I've got a lot of publishing contracts, but no placements yet, but maybe someday....:) ) so, I submit a song
and I get a contract offered, but because I didn't have anything in my C/A that gives me total
control of negotiating, I have to run it by the lyricist, and guess what, she doesnt like the contract because her lawyer ( who is not an entertainment lawyer, just a friend ) says no ? Well,
that happened to me ( when my lawyer, who is an entertainment lawyer, said yes. Well, we all got together and worked it out, but these type of slow downs can kill a deal. Listen up, many sync deals
are "time is of the essence", they often look for songs at the last minute, and need one like yesterday, and if they are considering three different songs, the one with the least problems
is the one getting the deal ). So, from this I learned to get a POA on negotiation, since more
and more publishers don't wnat to deal with more that one person. Clearance requirements by publishers are often 100% or no deal ( and a POA from the co-writer will give it to you ).

Do your homework, get a lawyer, get a collaboration agreement tailored for your needs, and make all co-writers sign it. Have work-for-hires for all musicians whom you do not want to share royalities with. Have wording in the contract for singers whose vocal interpretations might be argued that they contributed to the melody ( if it became a hit, you're gonna see all sorts of people com out of the woodwork wanting a piece of the pie )that these variations of your melody
are not to be considered as "co-writer" but as a reasonable 'artistic interpretation' of the original, and as such, they waive all claim on the music and their vocals are "work-for-hire" or something like that. What if the lyricist, there are two, say,
one writes most of the lyric, but the other came up with the killer title and hook, do you wsnt everything split three way, or would some other arrangement be fairer? If you are the composer, it is my opinion that because you are the one who is seeking a lyricist, you are pretty much in the driver's seat. But, if the lyricist is established, has had some minor hits or more, and
you have not, maybe he is in the driver's seat, if you want him more than he wants you, it all depends. But Know you rights, and all the implications.

I'm sure there are all sorts of other little headaches not mentioned here, that will come up ( like the demo,) did you know that when you make a demo, copyright law says "copyright exists when your creation is put to physical form" well, do you want that demo to exist in a state of copyright with all it's legal empowerments to both contributers ( binding words & lyric into one joint work ) when all you are doing is testing to see if people like the lyrics? what if no one likes the lyrics and the lyric is holding the song back, but without a collab agreement stating otherwise,
that lyricist, because of "physical form" rule, he/she now owns half of the entire song ( words and music ) as do you and now you are stuck with the lyric for this melody. A collab would have prevented this.

What if the lyricist goes hog wild and starts promoting in places you don 't want it promoted to? ( like porn films? ), What are your rights, what are the "first use rights' etc, there's a ton
of stuff you aren't thinkin' about when you write a song with someone ( like who owns the master ? that's a pretty big one in my opinion, and it affects clearance issues if you are offered a sync fee contract to be placed in a film, 'cause that's where many songwriters are making money these days, not so much from sales or downloads or streams where you need megamillions sold to make a modest living ).

It's all moot if the song is no good, but if it's a gem, better think about these things, so......

Get a lawyer, please, and save yourself years of headaches. Not sayin' for you to go and alienate
your co-writers, but politely and gently bring it to their attention before committing a lot of work and effort. If you have had some success, airplay ( I've had airplay on over 100 stations ) you'll have an easier time asking for C/A to be signed, you'll be percieved as the professional, etc.
To be honest, I will not work with anyone anymore without a C/A. I've got a few really nice melodies stuck with lousy lyrics that I can't do much about, 'cause the co-writer has as much power over the songs as I do, and I do anything without their consent (on exclusives, which more and more publishers are asking for. Non-exlusives don't require consent). Well, a C/A gives me total control, and I need total control now because music directors and publishers are demanding it. I'm not a control freak, I just want to succeed, so if you explain all this to your co-writers, hopefully they won't have a conniption ( though many do, and quit, which is fine ).

by the way, the generic C/A's you'll find on the net really are not adequate, in my experience.

some of the above is real, some imagined, but I'll bet it could happen, so.........

Good luck.

Pat Hardy Lockwood

#1112613 - 08/08/16 04:41 PM Re: Another Collab Agreement rant [Re: Pat Hardy]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,501
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,501
Hey Pat!

"You're the music creator, and someone else is the lyricist" - Pat

What came first, the chicken or the egg? If you composed your music guided by the lyrics, then, in essence the lyricist did contribute to the music. Bottom-line for me… once I do collaboration with a lyricist, it becomes a 50/50 venture. Unless other arrangements were made prior to the collaboration.

Best, John smile

#1112615 - 08/08/16 05:03 PM Re: Another Collab Agreement rant [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 580
Pat Hardy Offline
Top 500 Poster
Pat Hardy  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 580
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Hey Pat!

"You're the music creator, and someone else is the lyricist" - Pat

What came first, the chicken or the egg? If you composed your music guided by the lyrics, then, in essence the lyricist did contribute to the music. Bottom-line for me… once I do collaboration with a lyricist, it becomes a 50/50 venture. Unless other arrangements were made prior to the collaboration.

Best, John smile

Much truth in that, of course. However, I (usually but not alwayas ) compose melodies first, and seek lyricists for them. My melodies are sing-songy, like a "jazz standard" or a beatles tune, and I require the lyricist to adhere lyric to prosody of the melody, etc. ( here's an example of one of my melodies, but I wrote the lyric months after the tune was composed, and I'm actually looking for a better lyric, I'm not that good:)


As such, I reserve the right to register the copyright as a derivative work ( which allows me total control of the melody. A derivative copyright is one where the music is excluded in the registration, giving the lyricist the the copyright, but his or her control is limited solely to their precise contribution. In my C/A, if I have to make an adjustment to the melody to conform to their lyric ( I'll do it if the result is better than before ), it depends on how severe the variation is, before I'll yield a music co-writing credit. I've yet to do this, so far. Though it's happened to me, and the result was actually better, but the lyricist agreed to only want credit for the lyrics, as even though the lyric reshaped the melody, it was only for a small section of the song, and it was I who composed that melody.

On the other hand, a couple of times I was sent a lyric, and I composed a melody to that lyric.
Though the bridge was recomposed and the lyric followed the melody there, the verse was completely
shaped by the lyric. On that copyright, we did a joint copyright, ( both parties equal control over words and music ). So, it all depends. There are two basic scenarios: Is the lyric added to an already existing melody? Or are both parties writing both at the same time, where both music and lyric evolves a joint work? The former would be a derivative work, the latter a joint work. The copyrights are different, and have legal consequences quite different.

Derivative or joint, I always go 50/50. John, I have a question for you:

When you are offered a license fee for placement in a TV or film, do the contracts
offer it as "master use" and "sync" as separate fees? Or are they combined? or do they
even refer to the license payment this way? How does it actaully go down? the only thing
I"ve ever achieved so far are publishing contracts, never have gotten an actual placement yet,
so I'm guessing about these things.

Last edited by pathardy; 08/08/16 05:17 PM.
#1112618 - 08/08/16 06:18 PM Re: Another Collab Agreement rant [Re: Pat Hardy]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,836
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,836
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Eh, Well,
You in the Music Business Pat? Of course you should get a Co-Write Agreement, up front, for each song you have a co-writer. If they want something spelled out that isn't there, spell it out if you agree to it beforehand! After that the contract is closed, unless you agree to unknown clauses they want after the agreement. A bad idea by the way. If all else fails go back to doing what you were doing before your music excersion!

Ray E. Strode
#1112621 - 08/08/16 06:31 PM Re: Another Collab Agreement rant [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
Dan Sullivan Offline
Top 100 Poster
Dan Sullivan  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
Remind me to never get involved in the music business.

Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.


#1112623 - 08/08/16 06:39 PM Re: Another Collab Agreement rant [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,413
Aaron Authier Offline
Top 200 Poster
Aaron Authier  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,413
I wouldn't agree to paying for a $3000 demo. There is no money in songwriting unless you're a professional and you know influential people in the business.
You're just losing a ton of money. What's wrong with a 500 dollar demo? I'd go half with that if I loved the song enough.

#1112624 - 08/08/16 07:04 PM Re: Another Collab Agreement rant [Re: Aaron Authier]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 580
Pat Hardy Offline
Top 500 Poster
Pat Hardy  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 580
Originally Posted by Aaron Authier
I wouldn't agree to paying for a $3000 demo. There is no money in songwriting unless you're a professional and you know influential people in the business.
You're just losing a ton of money. What's wrong with a 500 dollar demo? I'd go half with that if I loved the song enough.

The $3k mentioned was for a typical sync license, money to be paid to songwriters, not money they are paying anyone.

My demos usually run about $250 - $300, some less, some more ( I'm using sequenced tracks a lot, to get costs down ).
But, one well-connected producer I want to hire who has connections who liked one of my songs wants $2500 for a top notch result, studio musicians, etc. he's worked with big names in the jazz world. Still,
jazz isn't that profitable, these days.

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.

Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
mason_mcmahon, Lingbeek, David Snyder, bassmanmike, ahendriks
20967 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Average Posts Daily36
Most Online1,506
Mar 16th, 2017
Just Plain Quotes
"A lot of people will tell you that preparation is what will make you successful. But I think that people misunderstand exactly what that means sometimes. The type of preparation you need most is the kind that allows you to instantly seize an opportunity, change your course based on a momentary circumstance, and grab hold of the totally unexpected when it happens, and allow it to take you for the ride of your life! That is the kind of preparation that can lead to the most enjoyable type of success." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
Bob Cushing (54), MoorOfDundee (2017)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0