Who's Online Now
21 registered members (couchgrouch, Barry David Butler, Gavin Sinclair, maccharles, 9ne, Jody Whitesides, 6 invisible), and 235 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
WriterTomYeager
WriterTomYeager
Harrisonburg,Virtginia
Posts: 3,650
Joined: September 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Amazing price appreciation of my SX guitars
by meghayadav045. 07/25/17 01:49 AM
Little Stevie B Prayers And Good Thoughts
by Mackie H.. 07/24/17 10:09 PM
SWAMP FEVER
by Mackie H.. 07/24/17 10:03 PM
Aoife's Song
by Nelson. 07/24/17 08:09 PM
ASCAP/ Landr?
by John Lawrence Schick. 07/24/17 07:57 PM
People Who Don't Wanna Be Found
by couchgrouch. 07/24/17 06:06 PM
I Talk To Jesus.
by Tom Franz. 07/24/17 12:53 PM
Joe Nichols country music story
by beechnut79. 07/24/17 12:24 PM
The Perfect Part
by beechnut79. 07/24/17 12:01 PM
Lovers, Artists, Dancers and Players
by beechnut79. 07/24/17 11:55 AM
Shout box
by Perry Neal Crawford. 07/24/17 11:37 AM
A Song For You
by Michael LeBlanc. 07/24/17 11:24 AM
What President do you most admire
by Michael LeBlanc. 07/24/17 11:21 AM
Am I On Your Radar
by Neil Cotton. 07/24/17 08:59 AM
Edgar
by TamsNumber4. 07/23/17 11:51 PM
Into The Mystic
by ant. 07/23/17 11:02 PM
A Name I’ll Never Divulge To You
by Neil Cotton. 07/23/17 08:57 PM
Leave It All Behind
by Nelson. 07/23/17 08:36 PM
Way Back
by Neil Cotton. 07/23/17 08:29 PM
Computers Shut Down At Midnight
by Barry David Butler. 07/23/17 05:32 PM
"The Teacher"
by Barry David Butler. 07/23/17 05:31 PM
What's On Your Spotify Playlist
by Dave Rice. 07/23/17 08:52 AM
Going To Try- Working Title
by Jen Shaner. 07/22/17 01:45 PM
How Long Do I Have
by couchgrouch. 07/22/17 12:36 PM
Does a song HAVE to have a universal theme??
by Ray E. Strode. 07/22/17 11:23 AM
The New Country (work in progress)
by Martin Lide. 07/22/17 07:42 AM
Journey 3rd rewrite
by Travis david. 07/22/17 07:31 AM
WHAT'S IN YOUR CD PLAYER ?
by Jody Whitesides. 07/21/17 03:53 PM
What exactly does this mean
by John Lawrence Schick. 07/21/17 07:40 AM
The Book
by Barry David Butler. 07/21/17 05:51 AM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,103
Kevin Emmrich 10,528
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Travis david 10,105
Two Singers 9,571
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,731
Mike Dunbar 8,574
glynda 8,559
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,773
Corey 7,357
couchgrouch 7,181
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,427
Joe Wrabek 6,392
ben willis 6,056
Dave Rice 6,021
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,718
Linda Sings 5,601
niteshift 5,320
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Vicarn 5,146
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,598
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,342
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Cindy Miller 4,178
Tom Shea 4,173
Neil Cotton 4,016
nightengale 3,964
TamsNumber4 3,922
Roy Cooper 3,880
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,752
Dan Sullivan 3,710
MFB III 3,687
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
beechnut79 3,187
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Harriet Ames 2,866
PopTodd 2,855
E Swartz 2,846
Nigel Quin 2,795
MidniteBob 2,604
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Nelson 2,371
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,241
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
Wendy D 2,151
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
Ray Thyer 1,929
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
maccharles 1,755
floyd jane 1,713
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Noel Downs 1,620
Iggy 1,589
Cal 1,574
Rick Heenan 1,557
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,451
RogerS 1,445
Ralph Blight 1,440
Chuck Crowe 1,435
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,427
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,406
Stan Simons 1,402
in2piano 1,397
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,372
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,300
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
GocartMoz 1,261
Janice & Bud 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
IdeaGuy 1,209
Glen King 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
PeteG 1,146
summeoyo 1,083
Gerry 1,077
BobbyJoe 1,075
joro 1,045
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
IronKnee 894
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
lane1777 764
teletwang 762
90 dB 745
tbryson 736
Andy Kemp 732
Andy K 729
Jackie444 718
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
ant 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 565
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
9ne 543
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
Pat Hardy 523
Irwin 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
Moosesong 491
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
R&M 442
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 398
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
Cecilee 376
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Alek 351
Z - man 350
John K 348
JamesDF5 347
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
pomeranj 289
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#1109775 - 07/01/16 12:17 PM NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
THE "IT GETS WEIRDER AND WEIRDER DEPARTMENT"

I got a notice on this from NSAI yesterday. NSAI, or Nashville songwriters Association International, are THE group that is trying to fight for writer's rights in the halls of Congress and representing us all legislatively. It is why I believe in the organaization and try to be involved as a member.

I will admit that I DON'T understand this at all, but have heard rumblings about it for some time. For more information, you need to go to the NSAI site or do a GOOGLE SEARCH for more information.
I believe the death nails for commerical songwriting are all around us and are being made more and more difficult every day. And much of that difficulty are coming from LEGISLATIVE bodies world wide. Whether it is regarding piracy, relaxing laws that would protect us, or just the devaluing of music worldwide, there are many things that are simply ending the commercial aspect of songwriting. This is another one.

Yesterday a rule was passed in the Department of Justice regarding songwriting. I still don't understand this rule and am just trying to find out more about it. But they have passed some new regulations regarding 100% LISCENCING, which means (as I understand it) that now one PRO (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) have to have 100% liscencing on songs. That means if you are a BMI writer, BMI liscence that. ASCAP writers would not be able to have it liscenced. This means they WOULDN'T GET PAID! This will stop BMI writers from being able to write with BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc. So yet one more NAIL IN THE COFFIN, for commercial songwriting. Most songs throughout history would NOT have been written if this were in effect. Another wonderful case of the Government poking it's nose where it doesn't belong.

Enjoy the day!
MAB

#1109776 - 07/01/16 12:20 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.

#1109778 - 07/01/16 12:24 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.

#1109781 - 07/01/16 01:14 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Humm,
At this moment when a song is registered on the BMI Work Registration Form there is a place for a writer if he is a co-writer on the work, and belongs to a different Pro to list his Pro, etc. I have the form. I assume if the work is registered with another Pro the same option exists. Thereby it is no problem if a song is co-written by song writers that belong to different Pro's.
You can only belong to one Pro at a time.

Fractional Licensing? Consent Degrees? I would assume the people holding these hearings don't know how it is done now.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Perhaps they are talking about one Pro collecting and
distributing all royalties to whomever.

As "Dirty Harry" said, you have to know your limitations!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 07/01/16 01:26 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1109784 - 07/01/16 01:56 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Ray, that is what has changed. Now you CAN'T HAVE half registered by ASCAP and half by BMI. One or the other has to register the song. That is what 100% consent decree means. ASCAP, BMI AND SESAC have all been protesting this for years and it has been coming. The ruling came down yesterday. Now what you have done in the past will no longer be valid for new works. Haven't figured out how they're going to wipe out previous songs but they would probably make it retroactive, which would mean EVERY song would have to be re-issued.

Again, this stuff has been coming a long long time. We have watched it like a slow motion train wreck and have dreaded the day. The same as people thought unlimited downloading, and streaming would never have such an effect on the music industry, UNTIL their checks started dissapearing. This is going to have extrodinary difficult ramifications.

The first thing is that BMI and ASCAP writers will no longer be writing together. Then, actual collections on anything will be next to impossible. This is the same problem people never saw coming when ASCAP and BMI started suing venues for more licencing fees. They thought it would get more venues to come online and pay more fees. What happened is the venues stopped having live music.

Now you find one of the biggest complaints among professional musicians is that there is no more places to play because they have been turned over to karaoke or local musicians with no affiliation.

Just like culture, don't think there is not going to be an effect on this. Already has.

MAB

#1109785 - 07/01/16 02:02 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
"I would assume the people holding these hearings don't know how it is done now. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"- Ray

Ray, are you saying you have NOT seen this happening in all facets of society? Non military people making life and death decisions over the military that have NO experience in the Military?

Trade treaties negotiated by people that have NO EXPERIENCE in treatys or negotiation?

Business regulations decreed by people who have never known anything about BUSINESS except theoretical classes in overpriced Universities?

Cultural codes, speech censorship and political correctness having REAL life results from people that have NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING?

This is just ONE more thing that should have never happened but is an example of government overreach by people who have NO IDEA of what they are doing.

OR:

One governing body of countries that make demands on other countires until one country has had enough and LEAVES that Governing body? You haven't seen THAT happening anywhere?

Hummm?

I'd say it's simply par for the course. Micromanagement by Government is the times we are living in.

MAB

#1109791 - 07/01/16 04:30 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
Marc, if you as a writer with one Pro, and a C0-writer on a song with another Pro can register the song with probably either pro and then that pro collects any royalties and distributes them according to the registration form. There is a place on the Work Registration Form for 5 writers on the BMI form. Most likely there would be no need for a co-writer on a song to register the song with each pro as one will do everything required.
You must know some publishers up there go ask them how they do it.
I believe I read on one of the posts that nothing would be done at present and it would be re-visited some time in the future.
The Pro's survey some places and not others and determine who and where any royalties are sent. Of course you need a huge hit to get anything.


Ray E. Strode
#1109799 - 07/01/16 06:42 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Ray, what I am trying to tell you is THAT IS WHAT IS CHANGING. That is about to be done away with as the rules change where one PRO or another does the registration. It will no longer be two PRO's. The decision was handed down yesterday. It will take a little while to implement. It is the PRO's AND the Publishers who have been fighting and lobbying against this for about four years. You have a form right now that will be null and void very soon.

All the things you have understood about songwriting, registrations, are about to change. So all the information you have right now is about to done away with. That's what I'm trying to explain to you.

MAB

#1109800 - 07/01/16 06:48 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Ray, this and more is the VERY reasons I have moved away from expecting finacial renumerations from songs for years. In all the changes in the law, all the new streaming, all of these things that are supposed to "revolutionize" all this and then NEVER live up to what people thought they were supposed to are the reason most professional writers have gotten out of the music business. People expecting windfalls from the sales of music are going to be very dissapointed.

It has been coming for a very long time and the people inside the business saw this coming. It is why they circled the wagons and why things are not open to people outside their circles. If the money dissipates in one area, they regear and focus on another area. That area is STAR BRANDING. The money in individual songs, in publishing, etc. is all gone. It's not coming back.

If you keep it to one PRO, you keep the splits down, thereby maximizing who is involved, and minimizing the ability of anyone outside to be a part of this. It's all about shrinking the people involved in the songs and artists themselves.

This is just one more aspect of that.

MAB

#1109801 - 07/01/16 07:37 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
A song that the Pro's collect/pay royalties, would probably (100 Percent) be assigned and the Copyright owned by the Publisher. I would assume the issue of writer's of different Pro's would be covered by a Clause already in a Publishing contract for all Legals already. Therefor the Publisher would do the Registration. So there is nothing further for the Congress to do in Copyright Law.

As far as streaming I would assume that would also be covered in the Publishing Contract or in case there is no Publisher by agreement to the streaming service agreed by the artist. Not sure the Pro's collect royalties on songs in a streaming service.


Ray E. Strode
#1109803 - 07/01/16 08:17 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
PA
Let’s see if I have this straight Marc... The songs I co-wrote with a Canadian songwriter (SOCAN) will be problematic for both of us getting paid? In the past, ASCAP would just forward the appropriate royalty to SOCAN. The songs are both registered with ASCAP and SOCAN. In order for my co-writer to get paid, our songs have to be registered with SOCAN. In order for me to get paid, the songs have to be registered with ASCAP--- though I was once told by ASCAP that I’d receive my royalties for any cue sheet turned in, regardless if it’s registered with them or not. I believe this issue isn’t about registering songs, is it? It’s about one PRO having 100% of licensing for any particular track.

I received the ASCAP statement you included, and yes, a bit confusing. Maybe I’ll contact ASCAP and ask for the bottom-line.


John smile

#1109807 - 07/01/16 10:19 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
John and all,

I am by NO MEANS claiming to understand any of this. I am only bringing you information that has been passed on to me. It will be best for you to contact your PRO representatives, although I will tell you that THOSE are the very people I have seen around town for the past year, downcast and everyone seemingly worried about "something big about to happen that we can't talk about..." I believe that is what has happend. And I believe this is why no one has been able to get responses from the PROS. Because they don't know HOW to respond.

The way it has been explained to me, and again, no one is explaining much. This just went down yesterday, but all these things you guys have saying BMI AND ASCAP, SESAC AND SOCAN, etc. will no longer be what there is. It will be BMI OR ASCAP, SOCAN OR SESAC, and will not have more than one PRO. How one will be paid who is NOT in that PRO, will not be paid. I of course, could be very wrong.

I was asked today by a young writer, "So if you can't make money at this, what is the sense of doing it?" That is what so many of my contemporaries, hit writers, established writers, publishers, MEMBERS OF THE PROS have been saying now for nearly 15 years and have been leaving this business one after another.

Everyone is going to have to make some decisions about what music means to them. If they are expecting to make much money at it, it might be time to pick a different hobby. No one knows what this is all going to mean. But I would be willing to bet that as far as writers go, it is not good.

MAB
The NSAI/Bluebird Cafe' response. They have been fighting this for around 5 years now.

http://www.nashvillesongwriters.com...terpretation-shocks-american-songwriters

#1109815 - 07/02/16 05:10 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 442
R&M Offline
Top 500 Poster
R&M  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 442
So much has seemed to have filtered through various web sources and distribution sites. The digital medium. There can be pocket change for downloads off of distribution sites, but what is transacted from their with different parties, nobody knows.
An upstart for all they know might be able to live off of what is made.
I guess that is the condition with the net and social media to where half the time people have to guard against what looks legitimate for what is spam.
We are in the wild west with that.
But that is still better than having regulators confuse things more, outside of the deepest, well deliberated exceptions.

#1109837 - 07/02/16 12:14 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: R&M]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Some time back there was a group that wanted a clearing house for all music so they wouldn't have to go thru the system that is now in place. Another group wanted all music to be free with no one being paid for their work. Both would violate copyright law and was a pie in the sky idea. The reason Copyright came about in the first place was so creators could receive some reward for their work.

There are very few songs that ever make it onto the airwaves so the PRO thing is a small problem that is already addressed quite well in copyright law and needs no adjustments except where the payouts may be adjusted.


Ray E. Strode
#1109839 - 07/02/16 01:14 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
PA
"Some time back there was a group that wanted a clearing house for all music so they wouldn't have to go thru the system that is now in place" - Ray

There is one for church music - CCLI (Church Copyright License). From their website: "CCLI has done all the hard work for you. We have negotiated agreements with songwriters and publishers from around the world. This agreement allows churches to copy from over 300,000 worship songs to assist with congregational singing"

#1109883 - 07/03/16 10:34 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
,NL Canada
All my songs are with SOCAN, but in order to collect USA royalties for airplay, I have to be affiliated with BMI through SOCAN. How is this going to change? I don't have any co-writers so I don't have any problem that way.

#1109894 - 07/03/16 01:34 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Everette,

If you have no co-writers and only register through SOCAN, you will probably not be affected at all. Directly. If you write with someone from BMI, ASCAP or SESAC, and register with SOCAN, you will be paid. Your co-writers will not. If they register it, they will be paid, you will not.

Most countries only have one PRO. The US has three. All invented when the other didn't do something.

ASCAP was invented in the 20's when songwriters were not being paid. People like Stephen Foster had died penniless, so people like the Gershwins, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, formed the "American Society of Composers and Publishers to ensure they would e paid for their work. But that was mostly sheet music which was the main form of payment in the early days. This is before radio. They also covered things like Broadway plays, etc.

BMI, or BROADCAST MUSIC INCORPORATED, were formed when radio and later television and motion pictures came in. They covered more than ASCAP and a rivalry was founded. Each tried to attract members, each had good points and bad points. There was always pay out diversity and often BMI would pay more than ASCAP because of different pay scales and such. At times ASCAP would "match funds" Both would advance money to writers for future hits, but that stopped in the 80's.

SESAC, was a European company that did very little money wise. They did mostly orchestra and chorale things, gospel market things. Never a lot of money in any of those. They moved into America in the late 90's and attracted people like Bob Dylan and Neil Diamond to their brand. That attracted a lot of writers and now they do more but are still third of the bunch.

The biggest thing you have among writers is complaining about each of them and writers flipping back and forth because none of them are doing too much for writers. There is really not a lot you can do in the FREE music era, and no one really knows how to deal with it. And the streaming issue has hit everyone with no one really knowing how to deal with it. The streaming companies claim they are paying all this money, but none of the writers or publishers are getting it. And since those companies are mostly in other countries, no one is able to audit them. So who knows.

Where this affects Nashville is that it is a co-writing town. That is the entire relationship factor of the town and what the town was built on. This is going to affect that in a thousand different ways. If you have been writing with people from another PRO, you will no longer do that. Everyone will draw the circles of who writes with who and what songs are cut, even tighter than they are now. Artists will write even more of their own songs and if you think the music has been bad before, you have not even begun to see the effect. It is going to change every thing about the way business is done.
And LA and NEW York, Toronto, London. Paris, etc. will all change as well.

So Everette, if you are writing only by yourself, no, it probably won't affect you at all. But if you are not getting hundreds of millions of streams, you are not going to be paid anyway.

Basically, an already stressed out business, just got more stressed out.
MAB

#1109907 - 07/03/16 03:05 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
I Googled the hearings trying to make heads or tails out of the situation. Talk about a Can of Worms. I never did get anything out of the posts. If I read correctly Congress is going to do nothing but will re-visit it in the future.

Here of course it is about the Pro's only. The only time you will get anything (To speak of) is if you have a big hit on the radio. If that happens you will probably have large royalties from mechanicals assuming your song hasn't been diluted by too many people taking a cut.
A hit song would be assigned to a large publisher and adminstered by them.
You would need a Philadelphia Lawyer to explain it all to you!
As I understand it, congress took this up on their own trying to please everybody. Good luck with that!


Ray E. Strode
#1109920 - 07/04/16 12:45 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
That's cause this didn't go through Congress. This is DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ruling. Congress has nothing to say about it.

#1109929 - 07/04/16 10:26 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
,NL Canada
Talk about the killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

#1109934 - 07/04/16 12:49 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
According to a News Item in maybe the Washington Post a ruling is to be announced by the Judges that do such things by the end of July. However I think the part about Fractional Licensing was solved some time ago. I checked the Credits for some of the songs on Pam Tillis's Greatest Hits. Some songs list both BMI and Ascap publishers and All Rights Controlled and Administered by one Publisher. etc. So the problem of Fractional Licensing has already been solved and needs no further changes.
I would assume the people handing down a ruling should already know that. So let's wait and see.


Ray E. Strode
#1109937 - 07/04/16 02:33 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Yes, Ray, it's all settled. Don't know why EVERY songwriter, publisher, PRO and record label are going crazy right now. I guess all that had been handled a long time ago (even though this rule was JUST HANDED DOWN Wed. I don't know how many ways to tell you that EVERYTHING you are going on is now totally different, but maybe you will see that some other time. But if you have been paying attention over the past decade or so, it is kind of a "new normal" that has gone completely with everything else going on in this country.
Let’s review for a moment.

Let’s see, an already struggling business on life support trying to adjust to a new cultural and business dynamic, get's government overreach from un-elected politicians who write rules for that industry while having NO UNDERSTANDING OF THAT INDUSTRY. (without having to go through Congressional oversight)

The rules, FURTHER decimate the already strapped industry and essentially another step toward wiping it out completely.

As Ray would say, HMMM?

Where have we seen this before?
VETERANS ADMINISTRATIONS, where bureaucrats with no military or veteran experience cause delays causing death with their members.

TRADE NEGOTIATIONS WITH PEOPLE who have NO EXPERIENCE in Trade or International negotiations who make deals with countries who declare their desire to kill us?

Energy regulations, by people that know NOTHING of the energy business, shutting down the Coal industry, the electrical industry, the Natural gas industry, in favor of unproven technology that continues to under deliver and over-promise AND TO EXCEED ALL COSTS.

HEALTH CARE and INSURANCE, wrecking all insurance and heath industries, causing a complete upheaval in every person’s lives.

Military decisions by bureaucrats with no military experience resulting in feckless and dangerous military policies.

Homeland security decisions that result in political correctness and blunders that cause and abet the actual deaths of people abroad and in the country.

Business regulations with people that have NO EXPERIENCE in business outside of theoretical classes in UPPER CLASS Universities.

Police and legal issues determined by people with no experience in either.

See any pattern here? Hmmm?

Over the past decades, there have been movements affront worldwide to render ALL COPYRIGHTS, ALL INTILLECTUAL PROPERTY, ALL PATENTS, ALL REGISTRATIONS, NULL AND VOID. With the goal stated that all should be “free to the world” in an effort to add to the “human condition.” So there would be no ownership of anything. And no money for it. It started with the “downloading and freebie people” but have spread to actual legislatures around the world.

Getting something other people create for free? Who would ever believe anything like that? Who would think they should get paid for no work, have housing, food, college, health care, cable, internet, every benefit of life provide by governments from Cradle to grave. Who would think of that?

Ummm. Like ANYONE UNDER THE AGE OF 30?

Find a problem. EXACERBATE THE PROBLEM. CREATE THE “CURE” FOR THE PROBLEM, MAKING IT SO BAD IT ENDS WHATEVER INDUSTRY THERE IS.

Declare the problem SOLVED.
There you go.


#1109938 - 07/04/16 03:06 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well Sure Marc,
The peasants killed Louis XVI because they were un happy with their station in life.
Some half-wit assinated some Duke that was visiting Austria because he thought some such nonsense that started WW1.

Adolph was so stressed he started WW2. Killed some 50 million before it was all over.

Our liberal buddies put program after program in place to fix the problem after the stock market crashed in 1929.

The people down on the Totum Pole want higher wages. The Liberals raised the Coporate Tax Rate so high businesses are leaving the country.
And "Artists" want more streaming money. Songwriters think the system is rigged against them.
Snuffy Smith is finding it harder and harder to find a chicken to lift.

On the Cover of this month's Consumer Reports a College Student, who is now $152,000 in debt says, "I kind of ruined my life by going to college".
Bernie wants to make college free for everybody. Hillary wants to give all the illegals benefits even some citizens can't get.

And some have a problem with music royalties. Hey Welcome to the Club!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 07/04/16 04:16 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1109939 - 07/04/16 04:09 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Jody Whitesides Online content
Jody Whitesides  Online Content

Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Park City, UT, USA
First - This is just a proposal. It is not law, as of yet.

Second - the purpose of this is as such: It would be a way to make licensing music easier. Its all about Fractional Licensing. Period. End of story.

What does this mean? It does not mean a song is solely represented by a single PRO. Where the hell did that misinformation come from - most likely someone not fully understanding the concept of the idea. All in an effort to spread fear mongering amongst the writers and publishers.

The big takeaway from this is that digital services want to make it easier to license songs. Because right now, anyone who has done licensing knows full well that its a friggin minefield when there is multiple writers & publishers involved.

[sidenote] I had one cover song cost me twice as much as it should have in licensing fees because the two writers and their publishing entities don't talk to each other. Which is, to pardon my French, f*ckin bullsh*t. [/sidenote]

Thus the proposal is that it should be allowed for just one of the parties involved to approve the license. Which in turn makes the whole process so much more simple and easy. Such that any songwriter/publisher involved can approve the license.

FUD:
Quote
"This would create Armageddon in the professional songwriter community. Since one performing rights society does not hold information on co-writers who are members of other societies, there is no effective way to make sure those co-writers are paid. Administrative costs will soar and there is a strong likelihood that songwriters may now only write with songwriters from the same performing rights society," said Bart Herbison, NSAI Executive Director.
/FUD

Either this guy Bart didn't understand the decree or he is really attempting to spread fear mongering in hopes of keeping the status quo in fractional licensing. Granting the license in no way changes where the payout goes. Its ludicrous and false information. His assessment that the PROs don't have all the information for any song is only partially true. For Example: SESAC, if I look up my songs registered with them, they contain all the information I had given them at the time of registration. That means they know who the co-writers & publishers and their IPI/CAE #s. Why? Because I obtain it from all my co-writers and their publishers.

Are all songwriters or publishers that diligent? No. But for him to blame the PROs for this lack of information is BS. But it still doesn't change the payout splits of a license. This only affects how easy it could be to get a license. Is that really such a bad thing?

The possible downside to this: A company looking to license may seek out the cheapest controlling partner in order to lessen their cost for the license.

The easiest solution in a situation like that: Have all songwriters & publishers sign an agreement (which all co-writers should be doing no matter what). And have that agreement state that everyone involved asks for "Most Favored Nation" in the license. Which would easily solve the issue that everyone goes for the same license amount and the maximum they want per license.

If anyone over the age of 30 doesn't see the current system as broken, needs to have their head examined, or they've never been in a situation of trying to license music where multiple writers & publishers were involved. If you're not for simplifying the system, why?


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1109941 - 07/04/16 04:36 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Jody,

"The guy Bart" has been the one going to Congress for twenty years fighting for your's and all songwriter's rights. A little respect has been earned. If you've got it all so figured out, I suggest you get on a plane and head to Washington. I tend to think that some of these people have a little better handle on it than you are giving them credit for.

MAB

#1109969 - 07/05/16 01:07 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
,NL Canada
It might be a good thing if all three PRO in the USA merged into one. It would cut down on operating expense and lessen the paper work and expense for those licensing music. Maybe there should be one world wide PRO which would give them a lot of power to negotiate a better deal for copyright owners.

#1109980 - 07/05/16 04:27 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Marc,
If you are still doing a program for people you may need to add a Lesson on Publisher's, Copyright, Pro's, Co-writing, royalities, royality splits, etc. don't know if you have handouts but perhaps it is time you developed one if you don't have one now. There is a lot to the music business. The better informed a person is, the less chance is he will get taken!


Ray E. Strode
#1109985 - 07/05/16 06:08 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
PA
Originally Posted by Everett Adams
It might be a good thing if all three PRO in the USA merged into one. It would cut down on operating expense and lessen the paper work and expense for those licensing music. Maybe there should be one world wide PRO which would give them a lot of power to negotiate a better deal for copyright owners.


When competition is eliminated, checks & balances become extinct. Yes, I agree Everett, it would give the powers-to-be more power for abuse.

John smile

#1109998 - 07/05/16 10:51 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Jody Whitesides Online content
Jody Whitesides  Online Content

Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Jody,

"The guy Bart" has been the one going to Congress for twenty years fighting for your's and all songwriter's rights. A little respect has been earned. If you've got it all so figured out, I suggest you get on a plane and head to Washington. I tend to think that some of these people have a little better handle on it than you are giving them credit for.

That's great and I can respect that. However, Bart ought to rethink how he's explaining it to his many followers at NSAI. Fear and loathing while pushing an agenda that has run its course might be great for the "old guard" to which he is part of, but its incredibly short sighted for the future of the industry. Which in turn will help people in positions like yours Marc - when it comes to posting about things that aren't a part of the decree like - you won't be able to co-write with a writer represented by another PRO <-- that's pure fabrication and look how people took to it.

Keeping licensing as a complicated affair ends up wasting time and money for everyone involved. Having dealt with it as part of my business - its terribly inefficient and needs to be simplified.

I explained what its about in my last post. I also offered a real simple solution to their foreseeable "problem". Of course all this is dependent upon a lot of songwriters to properly deal with how they run their songwriting business.

Its terribly scary when a needed change to the system is presented and it gets so vehemently pushed back by people who are afraid of change.

p.s. - I'd love to go chat with congress. Who's the right person to call?

p.p.s. - The U.S. is, to my knowledge, the only country with more than one PRO. I don't have a problem with it. But that is definitely the main reason of complication to get a license for a song in the U.S.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1110020 - 07/06/16 11:20 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,262
,NL Canada
PROs employ a lot of people and they make their salaries off their share of royalties paid for the use of their clients music. It would be to their benefit to make sure their clients get as much royalties as possible. They may have to lay off people if royalties dry up or at least shrink back to the point no body is making money enough to go through the hassle of writing songs and producing them. New music could die so everyone will suffer.

#1110114 - 07/07/16 12:34 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Ray, I don't focus much on Publishers because most of them are gone, downsized out of the business, (Nothing to collect on FREE)most have switched to the "Song plugging" (fee for service, business models).

There are the majors, which 99.99% of writers are never going to have any exposure to, or the current effective publishers, which are owned by the HIT WRITERS themselves. No one is going to get songs past those people. That, again is the RELATIONSHIPS and if you get close to those relationships, it's going to be pretty self evident what to do. Those take a long time to build and develop and anyone outside those circles have no chance anyway.

All of those relationships are built through ARTISTS, and again, if writers don't understand that, they are not in the game any way, so it is a waste of time to go through that. I focus on the craft of writing, the art of performance, networking (building those relationships) and understanding the BUSINESS, which most will never be a part of. But I do discuss it all.

Publishers are the latest victims of the changes in the business, and most have been downsized by it. So there is not much to talka about. Besides that, if someone becomes involved with a publisher, they will have no say in any contract or aggreement. It is all on the onus of the publisher, or the person who has the contacts or money. There is no "take it to a lawyer and re-write the contract over sub chapter 3 page 29 of the contract." It is take it or leave it, and that is it. The people that tell you other wise are theoretical nonsense.

Jody, you have two Senators and a Congressional representative. That is where you would start. You can contact them by phone or email any time you wish to. That is what Bart Herbison started doing thirty years ago. He was a Congressional assistant to members of Congress in DC for 10 years before coming to Nashville. And he has been pleading songwriters cases for the past 20 years. These issues that are coming to light now, streaming, loss of income, the Consent decrees and many other issues on intellectual property are the things he has been discussing in front of committees, sub-committees for 20 years.

I went to Congress with him and a 40 person delegation in 2006. WE all paid our own ways, we all sat with members of Congress, Senators, we talked about the issues, played songs and demonstrated what we were talking about in the halls and offices of Congress.

So you can get on board any time you want. We've been doing it a long time. Welcome to the party.

MAB


#1110116 - 07/07/16 01:44 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Humm, Well, Lessee Marc,
For all practical purposes there is no town to speak of to navigate anymore, right? I know Music Row is mostly a ghost town now.
I'm sure "Bart" is a good fellow. Probably a lot of Nashville folks singing that old Hank Williams song, I JUST DON'T LIKE THIS KIND OF LIVING! So, what would you say was the best thing you got out of your visit to Congress?

Again I would advise songwriter's to learn all they can about the business. An Oz. of prevention is worth a Pound of Cure!


Ray E. Strode
#1110118 - 07/07/16 01:52 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,021
Dave Rice Offline
Top 40 Poster
Dave Rice  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,021
Texas
Hi Marc:

I appreciate the information you have provided. I'm hoping Bart is not planting seeds on infertile ground. (Congress!) Most of all, I appreciate the fact that you and others in "the biz" gave your own time, paid your own expenses... and travelled to D.C. to explain things to the misinformed, pocket stuffing, lying and perpetually running for office Senators and Congressmen.

Given what you have told us... it appears that creating music on just about any of the lower tiers... is an exercise in futility.

That leaves self-satisfaction as the avenue of reward... and even that is "a tough row to hoe!"

Thanks for all you do for us,

----Dave

#1110120 - 07/07/16 02:23 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Hey Ray, as usual, you are about as far from the mark as you can get. Music Row is actually humming quite well. Even has expanded. The "Row" now includes an area called Berry Hill" where more of the studios now are. The publishers (mostly the hit writers own publishing companies) are more and more there. Traffic is incredible, more and more buildings going up all the time. But still much of the older buildings are there. A lot of hue and crying over tearing down a lot of the historical buildings, but I have a bit different take on it, because most of those buildings being torn down now, are THE ONES THAT WERE BEING PUT UP WHEN I MOVED TO TOWN.

There is an incredible amount of activity going on. But the thing that has changed is that no one can get in the buildings unless they are known. There is continuous activity, and for some people, at the top of the heap, making more money than ever.

If you want to compare it to something, you can compare it to STUDIO CITY in Los Angeles. All the television and movie studios out there, always things going on, always new buildings going up, always older buildings being torn down. Many people make money, a ton of activity going on.
But you are not going to get in to ANY OF THEM UNLESS THEY KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND ARE INVITED.

And again, as I have said till I am blue in the face, THERE IS NOT ONE THING ABOUT THIS THAT IS DIFFERENT. Songwriters and artists making no money (STARVING MUSICIANS), again, go back to the 20's 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's 80's 90's, 2000's. IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME!!
Why do you think so many artists of yesterday are TRYING TO SUE THEIR EARLY RECORD AND PUBLISHING COMPANIES FOR BACK ROYALTIES? Because they NEVER MADE THE MONEY THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE OWED.
The only things that change are the people doing the complaining.

There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THAT. But it is a DO IT YOURSELF WORLD and we have to do more things ourselves, not unlike Elvis, Buddy Holly, The Beatles, all had to do when they got started. It is exactly the same today.

The "BUSINESS" is now what YOU MAKE IT INTO. If you do it well, you will get allies along the way. The people on the charts now, had numerous things going on BEFORE they got deals. Now, they have to work harder to build more fan base BEFORE they are brought inside. Writers have to write with MORE people to build relationships. They have to release things (PAY FOR) things on their own, and often there is not a residual pay off.

But anyone who has EVER DONE THIS FOR THE MONEY is in THE WRONG BUSINESS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. I have never, not ever met ONE hit writer, one publisher, one producer, one record executive, that EVER GOT INTO IT FOR THE MONEY. They got into it for the love of it. They were drawn to it by a passion that could not be quenched. Along the way as their abilities and relationships expanded, money became a part of that. But it was NEVER THE FIRST DRIVING FORCE. Ever.

That is what too many "Internet driven" writers, artists and interested parties don't understand. They are so focused on getting what they have OUT THERE, they never take time to find out if what they have is WORTH being OUT THERE. They never get past the technical world of the Internet to actually build the relationships or the human touch that are ESSENTIAL, not SUGGESTED.

And again, if you go back in history, you see it is the same things. It wasn't Sam Philips hearing a tape of Elvis. It was MEETING ELVIS. It wasn't Brian Epstein hearing ABOUT the Beatles, it was about going to MEET THE BEATLES. (even named one of their first albums that). And now it is not just about someone "sending their music out" as a temporary blip of electronic information, it is MEETING THEIR PUBLIC, BUILDING THEIR REPUTATION, PERSONALLY BUILDING THE RELATIONSHIPS.

This entire PRO discussion is just one more roadblock to that. The successful people will find a way around it. They always do. There will be success stories. But not without PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT.

So Ray, yes, many things have changed. But most things have stayed exactly the same. It is NOT A SPECTATOR SPORT. It is not a MAIL IT IN ACTIVITY. MUST BE PRESENT TO WIN. That takes GETTING OUT OF THE LIVING ROOM.

And that has never and will never change.

MAB

#1110127 - 07/07/16 03:33 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
Last I heard Music Row was a ghost town. But glad to hear the owners of the publishing companies are doing what, well or starving. So you have to know someone to get a foot in the door. A closed society. Good thing Webb and Elvis came along when they did. Neither one ever wrote anything but managed to sell millions of records.Shucks I heard most of it in real time, (when it came out).
It used to be you could call a radio station and request a song. Today they have Consultants that tell you what you will hear. And it is programmed from some distant place.
I tune GAC on the T.V. once in a while to see what's new. Plenty but little one would to own.
Probably the reason no one is making any money is no one is recording anything.
you should canvess some of those studios and see if they are doing anything. Of course that would require some energy.
For the record I ain't makin' any money either!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 07/07/16 03:37 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1110132 - 07/07/16 03:55 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Jim Colyer Offline
Top 30 Poster
Jim Colyer  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Nashville, Tennessee usa
I wish I had faith in the PROs.

#1110134 - 07/07/16 04:58 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
California
Well hopefully these decisions won't pass muster with the Judicial Branch:

The decisions of the Justice Department are not set in stone as it is a U.S. federal court who has the final say over what becomes of the consent decree. As such, BMI and ASCAP can urge a judge to reach a different conclusion, though it’s more likely the court will side with the government.* (from a Fortune Magazine article..see link below..)

Consent decrees and fractional licensing were both under review by the DOJ, and so I am assuming that BOTH must get through the Federal Courts.

Has any kind of apartheid ever worked for long? The DOJ's ruling flies in the face of basic human nature.

Imagine all the great songs that never would have been written, had fractional licensing never been allowed. All the songwriting teams that never would have been. There's probably folks researching this as we speak, and will hopefully present something that will make that future courtroom scene an embarrassing one for the Federal Courts.

No doubt it would be a tremendous undertaking, but is it within the realm of possibility, if the Federal Court upholds the DOJ's decision, for there to be some kind of "merger on paper" between BMI and ASCAP, so then technically 100% licensing would still be in effect, but it wouldn't matter as much, as most songwriters would then be under the same "umbrella"..?

Mike

* http://fortune.com/2016/06/30/ascap-consent-decrees/

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/07/16 05:22 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1110141 - 07/07/16 06:06 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Jody Whitesides Online content
Jody Whitesides  Online Content

Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Park City, UT, USA
Marc, I'll look into it.

As for why all this started...

If anyone remembers several years ago some publishers decided to remove parts of their catalogs (meaning, the very popular parts of their catalogs) from the PROs ASCAP & BMI. I'm going to assume that also includes SESAC, but I don't have a definitive answer on that yet. Why did they pull out of ASCAP and BMI? To get out from under decades old consent decrees from the 40s that were reviewed in 2014, but nothing had changed.

Again why?

So that they could direct license their popular catalog with the digital services at a higher rate than ASCAP and BMI. Because the current consent decrees unfortunately bind the hands of ASCAP and BMI from getting better value of their catalog.

At the time of Marc's original post - the DOJ had not made any indication of what was to happen but... As of the 5th (Tuesday): First, the DOJ has decided to enforce its interpretation that ASCAP and BMI must offer full work licenses for any song in their repertoire, ending the current, established practice of fractional licensing. Second, the Department of Justice has decided not to adopt any of the proposals put forward to reform and update the decades-old consent decrees, including the proposal to allow publishers to partially withdraw their catalogs from the PROs.

This is a two pronged issue. First, the biggest issue of holding on to consent decrees that are massively outdated, and of which nothing was reformed from industry requests - including allowing the PROs to get more money for their songwriters/publishers and to allows publishers to pull catalog from representation in order to get their music more money. All of that is bad, very bad. Second, they granted another issue that allows for easier licensing. While I find this to be a good thing, many others do not. I get it. The problem is, the DOJ could implement more radical change to improve the system and has not. Which means there's only a partial movement in attempting to update our songwriting system.

At this point the DOJ is supposed to make the decision public at the end of July. Plus it still has to negotiate all this with the affected PROs (maybe SESAC & SoundExchange are not part of this, I'm waiting on an answer from my Rep about SESAC, but I'm pretty sure that SoundExchange does not fall under the old decrees). This could get settled in court. Congress may also step in to solve the issue - to which the DOJ has apparently expressed is the method they prefer. Once all of this is actually decided and done - the PROs will have one year to comply.

Thus there is hope that other recommendations will actually make their way into the situation, despite being initially ignored.

I will reach out to my Senators and see if I can't get some time with them.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1110148 - 07/07/16 06:54 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Ray, you sure get some interesting information. Is that "Ghost town" stuff being delivered by Pony Express? Because every time I have to wait in traffic 20 minutes just to get around the Row, see five to six cars parked in the parking lot of pretty much every studio and publisher, I know that is not just a bunch of people hanging around.

Of course, you would get the "ghost town"remarks from people who are the old timers, and are shut out of all this. The fact is, that around 500 songs a day are written and three hundred or so songs are being recorded. So there are people doing quite well. The phrase you should remember is "Visabilaty is Viablilaty." That means when you see artists, hear songs EVERYWHERE, on Magazines, on television, in movies, commercials, you can pretty much bet they are making money.

There are plenty of people NOT making money as well. But all in all it is the best of times, the worst of times. As far as artist s, musicians, writers, inventors, poets, etc. the avenues to get things OUT THERE, have never been as many. Getting paid for it, monetizing it in any way whatsoever, is another matter altogether.

As far as the "Had to know someone" that has always been that way. When Elvis met Sam Phillips at his little Sunn Records studio, Elvis only knew one person. Sam Phillips. Sam was impressed with him because he had been recording black music for years and had been looking for a "white guy to sing black music."

When they recorded him, Sam's brother, Dewey traveled around to radio stations, giving them 45's to play. Inside the sleeves of the 45's were $50-$200. That is why they were played. That was called "Payola" and while it was "officially banned" in the 50's it still exists. Now it is called "ADVERTISING."
The same with Webb Pierce and all your heroes. Radio was paid to play those records, they caught on with the public and careers were born. WHEN THOSE ARTISTS PLAYED LIVE.

I can give you another interesting factoid. Starting in the 50's when Nashville became a music center, there were between 15-25 writers a year that got more than one cut. Of course, at that time there were probably about 50 writers. Through the 60's and 70's, there were about 100-500 writers and 25 got more than one cut. Through the eighties and ninties, there were about 5000-10,000 and about 25 got more than one cut.
Today, if you study the charts, there are around 40,000-85,000, and around 25 get more than one cut.

So an inside business? Yep. And always HAS BEEN.

Jody and Micheal, I don't know what these rulings are going to bring, I don't really care. That is not where any of my interests lie. What I tell you is what friends of mine, who are producers, record label people, publishers, and writers are saying. I long ago, quit thinking PRO's, Streaming or any of this would mean much, which is why I don't really worry myself about it.

As far as a Justice Department making rulings on things they have no idea about, I mean, ARE YOU SERIOUS? This Justice Dept.? I think you might ought to open your eyes a little bit.

I live in the real world, not theoretical world. I tend to watch from the sidelines and stay mostly out of the fray. As I said, I've been watching this ship sink for many years so none of this surprises me. just another day watching the races.

MAB

#1110150 - 07/07/16 07:14 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
California
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette

Jody and Micheal..

As far as a Justice Department making rulings on things they have no idea about, I mean, ARE YOU SERIOUS? This Justice Dept.? I think you might ought to open your eyes a little bit.

I live in the real world, not theoretical world. I tend to watch from the sidelines and stay mostly out of the fray. As I said, I've been watching this ship sink for many years so none of this surprises me. just another day watching the races.
MAB


Hi Marc,

I made no assumptions about the Justice Department. In fact there's nothing assumptive at all in my perfectly reasonable post, and believe I live in the real world, just like you, but it's good to see you haven't lost your knack for "putting us all in our place."

Your snobbery is palpable.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/07/16 07:19 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1110152 - 07/07/16 07:30 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
On to other things. Today the By Monthly AARP News Flyer came. My wife joined some time ago. In it AARP asks Clinton and Trump what their plan is to keep Social Security sound. I didn't bother to read the responses. Why bother Security is running out of money and will finally expire by it's own weight.
also there is a story about more adult kids living with their parents. A real Confidence Builder on the fate of Social Security
and the overall state of the economy.
My plan for Social Security. Start your own savings plan! Don't depend on the government for your welfare.
I read where the Federal Funded Retirement fund is woefully under funded. A Union Pension Fund, maybe the Teamsters, out in the Mid West is also in bad shape. Not to mention many cities and state budgets. The Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists have been re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for the last 100 years. So far the Titanic has been betting 1000, the Deck Chairs 0.So, how's your Retirement Plan going?

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 07/07/16 07:31 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1110158 - 07/07/16 08:56 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Jody Whitesides Online content
Jody Whitesides  Online Content

Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Jody and Micheal, I don't know what these rulings are going to bring, I don't really care. That is not where any of my interests lie. What I tell you is what friends of mine, who are producers, record label people, publishers, and writers are saying. I long ago, quit thinking PRO's, Streaming or any of this would mean much, which is why I don't really worry myself about it.

As far as a Justice Department making rulings on things they have no idea about, I mean, ARE YOU SERIOUS? This Justice Dept.? I think you might ought to open your eyes a little bit.

I live in the real world, not theoretical world. I tend to watch from the sidelines and stay mostly out of the fray. As I said, I've been watching this ship sink for many years so none of this surprises me. just another day watching the races.

And yet, I feel like this is a matter of the pot calling the kettle black Marc.

I'm being told that I'm needing to open my eyes about the subject, when all along I'm posting based on reading the information presented from a different set of sources. I also stated in an earlier post, prior to the information out of Tuesday the 5th, that none of that had been decided. Plus, my post this morning which is about the actual facts coming from the DOJ and not some theoretical situation. Mind you, the DOJ would likely rather Congress deal with it - based on what the DOJ released in a statement. That's fact, not fiction. Which still doesn't change that this matter hasn't actually been resolved [Fact].

Unlike you, I really don't know what the scope of the DOJ's reach consists of. Thus, I don't really know if it falls under their jurisdiction. But maybe it has something to do with upholding laws set by Congress? If you know something about the DOJ we're not privy too, please enlighten us.

I'm more than a bit confused by your rhetoric Marc. Essentially I have to agree with Michael on this - I didn't make any assumptions about the DOJ. But I did respond with logical thoughts to the theories others presented. I know I live in the changing world, just like you. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna read that response and not say - what kind of arrogance is that? Are you pissed that others have a differing view? Are you angry the facts of the situation don't match the perceived argument you started with?

I don't understand why you're wasting the time typing anything about it at all, seeing as how you "don't really worry about it."

I'm more pissed about the situation where ASCAP and BMI have been fighting to get things like these decrees updated to match the modern world - and they're getting ignored. That's way more troubling than attempting to listen to people saying we need to stick with the status quo. Because despite not being represented by ASCAP or BMI, that fate affects people I work with and may in the future affect PROs that represent me.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1110159 - 07/07/16 09:01 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 100 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,810
Nashville, Tn.
Jody,

We could both talk about each other's arrogance. But I don't. I'm not pissed about anything. I respond to what you say. I don't know these decisions either. From the beginning I have presented you with what I've been told and what the general feeling around here is. It may be wrong, it may be that I am TOTALLY wrong, and if I am I'll stand corrected.

What I am talking about is a out of control justice department in every facet of our lives. If that is arrogant, I guess I am. In any of this I only care about one main thing, that writers and artists get out of the living room and continue the network of music. That's all I care about.

All of these other things mean nothing to me. It's not where I live nor care about. But in the TOWN that I live and care about it is causing a lot of problems and that is what I am talking about.

But you are right. I've covered about all I'm going to on this. Enough from me on this subject. I'll take my arrogance elsewhere.

MAB

#1110160 - 07/07/16 09:41 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
California
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Jody,

What I am talking about is a out of control justice department in every facet of our lives. If that is arrogant, I guess I am. In any of this I only care about one main thing, that writers and artists get out of the living room and continue the network of music. That's all I care about.

All of these other things mean nothing to me. It's not where I live nor care about. But in the TOWN that I live and care about it is causing a lot of problems and that is what I am talking about.

But you are right. I've covered about all I'm going to on this. Enough from me on this subject. I'll take my arrogance elsewhere.

MAB


So Marc,

Where does either Jody or myself say anything favorable about the Department of Justice?

Both Jody and I DID mention, though, that the DOJ's decision STILL has to be won in a Federal Court of Law.

Perhaps you are the one making assumptions here..about where we are coming from?

Here is an assumption on my part..You seem a bit nihilistic here..it seems you are suggesting that no "case" need be prepared to take to the Judicial Branch, because it seems like a "done deal" in your mind, cuz of the U.S. federal court's leanings or whatever, so "what's the use.."

Attempting to make a case that sways a judge is one thing. Thinking that the Judicial Branch/Federal Courts OR the DOJ (for that matter) has a bias (or not)is another thing entirely--and neither Jody nor myself posited any thought, positive or otherwise, on ANY governmental agency or branch, whatsoever.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/08/16 12:13 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1110169 - 07/08/16 12:39 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Jody Whitesides Online content
Jody Whitesides  Online Content

Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
But you are right. I've covered about all I'm going to on this. Enough from me on this subject. I'll take my arrogance elsewhere.

Its a discussion Marc. Not a matter of taking it elsewhere. I'm all for your opinion, but be aware - I research for the facts.

Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Where does either Jody or myself say anything favorable about the Department of Justice?

Actually Mike, I did make a reference to being inclined to seeing licensing being made easier.

But I agree, the case isn't done. This is a recommendation and its far from over. The great thing is that it has gotten the discussion opened up. Which means if enough songwriters/publishers get riled up enough - something good can come of it. One thing is for sure, I will be calling both my Senators to see about getting some face time with them about my concerns.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1110173 - 07/08/16 12:57 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,498
California
Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
But you are right. I've covered about all I'm going to on this. Enough from me on this subject. I'll take my arrogance elsewhere.

Its a discussion Marc. Not a matter of taking it elsewhere. I'm all for your opinion, but be aware - I research for the facts.

Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Where does either Jody or myself say anything favorable about the Department of Justice?

Actually Mike, I did make a reference to being inclined to seeing licensing being made easier.

But I agree, the case isn't done. This is a recommendation and its far from over. The great thing is that it has gotten the discussion opened up. Which means if enough songwriters/publishers get riled up enough - something good can come of it. One thing is for sure, I will be calling both my Senators to see about getting some face time with them about my concerns.


It would seem that making a presentation to the Federal Courts showing all the great songs and musical partnerships that never would have been, had 100% licensing been in effect from the beginning of the popular music era would hold sway over that Court..

If the two PRO system is broken, I still don't understand how 100% licensing fixes that. Certainly two wrongs still don't make a right?

I'm probably wrong, but this feels like King Solomon saying he's gonna cut the baby in half (IOW do something drastic) in order to force the two parties to get creative with solving their problem, which is why both Everett and I were wondering if some kind of merger under one umbrella might be a move in the right direction.

I will be fact researching as well.. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/08/16 01:07 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1110177 - 07/08/16 04:31 AM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Jody Whitesides Online content
Jody Whitesides  Online Content

Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,831
Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
If the two PRO system is broken, I still don't understand how 100% licensing fixes that. Certainly two wrongs still don't make a right?

Only two PROs? Last I checked there's four - ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, SoundExchange. Plus there's Harry Fox and Music Reports that collect for Mechanicals. So that might make for 6. Which is a whole lot compared to other countries...


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1110200 - 07/08/16 12:38 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
OK,
For the record! The Pro's collect royalties from Public Performances! That is mostly Radio Air Play but also Venues where live music may be played. They survey public venues on certain things and then the Venue pays a fee on the survey. I think Radio Stations also pay a yearly fee based on certain things. As I understand it the fees are pretty small.

The Pro's last I heard only survey the large radio stations. If the station is in a large market, they pay more, small markets, less. Not all stations are in the survey.

Pro's pay any royalties directly the the Publisher and songwriter's. The publisher doesn't collect the royalties on Pro
payments as they do on mechanical licenses. On Mechanical Licenses they collect the fees and distribute them according the the Publishing Contract.
As noted earlier many times a song will be written by writers of different Pro's. I have CD's where two different Pro's are listed because the writers belong to a different Pro.
There is a place on the BMI Work Registration Form to put the writers on with their Pro's. Also the Publisher's involved. I assume it is the same with the other Pro's. From there it is pretty easy for one PRO to Administer the song simply with an agreement Between Publisher's to distribute the royalties.
This has been the practice, with adjustments if needed for a long time. Not sure what the fuss is ls all about.


Ray E. Strode
#1110202 - 07/08/16 01:02 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,395
PA
"For the record! The Pro's collect royalties from Public Performances! That is mostly Radio Air Play but also Venues where live music may be played" - Ray

Don't forget TV and Internet Ray. ASCAP just started paying for Netflix (retroactive back to 2015).

John smile

#1110208 - 07/08/16 01:45 PM Re: NEW PRO RULINGS ON THE WAY [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,752
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Yes John,
The thing is all of this so called Fractional Licensing is already being done. I haven't looked at my BMI Hand Book lately but there is no problem with royalties being collected, and paid whatever and where ever they are due.


Ray E. Strode
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
Thetuneman1, Joanne8, stranger, JPUMPMUSIC, Scott171
20921 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics116,754
Posts1,099,780
Members20,922
Average Posts Daily21
Most Online1,506
Mar 16th, 2017
Just Plain Quotes
"We are all millionaires, billionaires even, because right now we have today. And today is worth more than all the wealth we can imagine. So spend today wisely. Spend tomorrow wisely. Enjoy the wealth of today, and realize it is worth far more than all the money and possessions of tomorrow and beyond." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0