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#1107023 - 05/13/16 06:07 PM System is Rigged Aganist The Artist  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Barry David Butler  Online Content
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Sebring, Florida USA

#1107028 - 05/13/16 07:36 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Barry David Butler]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Dave Rice Offline
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Dave Rice  Offline
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Texas
Hi Barry:

I agree the system is "rigged" but Billboard did not mention songwriters... unless my speed reading ability has failed me again... LOL! I get a constant barrage of E-notices from ASCAP damning Google, Spotify and a host of other "net-based" music and content delivery giants. Sadly, those of us on the bottom rung almost never get an opportunity for a place at the table.

It's been that way for quite some time and I doubt if it will ever change. Part of the problem, as Pogo used to say, "IS US!"

There are too many songwriters and nobody has the time or inclination to listen to outsider writers. If your latest creation does not go "viral" somehow, it will vanish into the black hole of dead music.

Thanks for sharing.

----Dave

#1107031 - 05/13/16 07:54 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: May 2001
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
I've always looked at this as 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. If someone uploads your music without permission you do get publicity but you get no money. Streaming if I read it correctly pays so little that you need millions of views to make pennies. Probably many times someone discovers you and then buys your music. As we have read from time to time there is someone suing somebody that supposedly ripped them off. When Marco Polo traveled to China he did much of it by water because of robbers, highwaymen, thieves, bandits, and other all around nice guys. And of course the Vikings used to raid England. Nothing's changed!


Ray E. Strode
#1107072 - 05/14/16 09:09 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Dave Rice Offline
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Dave Rice  Offline
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Texas
Hey, Ray:

I never thought of you as a pessimist! ...LOL! Yeah, I think Marco got smarter after his first trip. (Like you and me!)
Have a great weekend, pal. ----Dave

#1107760 - 05/25/16 06:38 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Dave Rice]  
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pathardy Offline
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pathardy  Offline
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I've been writing songs since 1970, maybe earlier.
before the cassette was invented. I used to go to
that building on Sunset Blvd with my guitar, and walk
into publishers and ask if I could perform a song.
Most laughed, but there were always a few that let me
peform my song, and gave me feedback. Onetime, one publisher
recorded my song on Teac recorder for me. Imagine doing that today?

Anyway, never made much money. Even in those days, it was well nigh impossible to get a hit, though some manage, somehow.

I got 10K spins last year, as reported by ASCAP membership page on the site, and my royalties were just a few bucks, they don't cut you a check unless it accrues to at least $100.

But, people forget, even back when, terrestrial radio didn't pay much per spin, you really needed a high rotation hit nation or world wide, on tens of thousands of radio stations and billions of spins to make any money.

We all complain, but it's always been that way.

Where we are getting screwed is the death of the CD, the death of the download, and the royalties from those. Streaming is the new thing, and it's killing the industry.



#1107796 - 05/26/16 09:20 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: pathardy]  
Joined: Aug 2002
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Everett Adams Offline
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Everett Adams  Offline
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,NL Canada
I've stopped sending songs to any place that charges me for using my songs to further their business. Most radio would not exist without music, people demand a steady supply of new and fresh music, they should pay to consume this music in what ever form they consume it, don't ask the creators of that music to pay for the privilege of providing it. Stealing music off the net is what started this downward spiral, now everyone is going to suffer, starting with the so called lovers of music that stole it off the net in the first place.

#1107797 - 05/26/16 10:02 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: May 2006
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Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

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Saint Petersburg. FL
Ha.... The law of supply and demand is never broken. As long as the supply of music outstrips the demand by thousands of times, the price will keep dropping.

Here is a quote of interest.... "YouTube users now upload more than 400 hours of video to the site every minute"

Music is like baseball...millions of people play, but only the handful at the top make good money. The rest play baseball on the local sandlot or music at the VFW for $50. Anything that people do for fun and pleasure is unlikely to be a good career because there are simply too many people who want to do it.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1107827 - 05/26/16 08:40 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Nashville, Tn.
Colin,

That is one HUNDRED percent correct. Most people simply don't fathom the amount of people out there trying to do this. Every second on You Tube and other social media are thousands upon thousands of songs. Kids with their cell phone videos, amateurs everywhere, and professionally done recordings. They are all piling up out there.

There are roughly one BILLION SONGS A MONTH uploaded to the Internet. That is twelve billion songs a year. Millions upon millions of people doing this and more and more every single day.

That is why the entire "Music should be paid for" rings hollow with the majority of music listeners. In most of their lives, music has been free and it has been everywhere. We are in the third generation of free music damanders. And that is simply not going to change,ever.

The only thing anyone can ever do is try to create your own niche. But I always view things in a historical perspective. Musicians have NEVER been paid what they should, ever. Especially songwriters. Stephen Foster died broke. Most have never earned enough to take care of themselves.

Is the system rigged? I don't know. If anyone feels so strongly about it and want to make a statement, they should REFUSE to put their music on any form of social media, or do anything for free.

That will be making a statement. Now all all they have to do is convince everyone else to do the same.

MAB

#1107866 - 05/27/16 03:34 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Jim Colyer Offline
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Jim Colyer  Offline
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Nashville, Tennessee usa
Seems like everybody wants to be a rich and famous singer and songwriter.

#1107867 - 05/27/16 04:02 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jim Colyer]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well Dave,
We are now living in George Orwell's 1984 World. It is all Push Button Now. Wait a minute! Everybody thinks we are living in George Orwell's world of 1884! Somebody forgot to repair the button! Everybody is waiting for somebody else to fix the button because nobody knows how to fix the button! However I am going to fix the button just as soon as I un hitch the mules, who don't care about no blankety-blank button!


Ray E. Strode
#1107871 - 05/27/16 05:37 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Barry David Butler  Online Content
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Sebring, Florida USA
Who needs a car I have a horse....must have said a lot of that.

#1107920 - 05/28/16 11:04 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Barry David Butler]  
Joined: Apr 2007
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John W. Selleck Offline
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John W. Selleck  Offline
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NJ
Almost all artists of any kind are in the same situation now. Almost all art, except live performance art, can be easily reproduced for next to nothing. Mona Lisa by 3D printer! Copyrights are laughed at and almost no one appreciates the effort put in by the artist. And yes, songwriters are artists. We paint with words and music. Marc gives very good advice, do it for the love of the craft and if you ever get paid, be grateful!


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1107937 - 05/29/16 01:24 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Dec 2001
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Jody Whitesides Offline
Jody Whitesides  Offline

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Park City, UT, USA
The sky is falling!
THE sky is falling!!
THE SKY is falling!!!
THE SKY IS falling!!!!
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!

Oh no, the sky is falling. This is the same thing that happens every time a new format to deliver music has come into existence.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1107938 - 05/29/16 01:29 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Apr 2007
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John W. Selleck Offline
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John W. Selleck  Offline
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NJ
For people who are either used to making decent money or who believed they could make decent money from songwriting/downloads/music sales, "The sky really is falling"! Nothing in the history of music has had such a deleterious effect on income as the free download phenomenon.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1107940 - 05/29/16 01:51 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: May 2001
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Brunswick, Ga. USA
Whazzat?,
After being exposed to music and mechanical devices to re produce it for many, many years I don't remember one gripe about a new invention. I remember reading about the advent of Stereo FM broadcasts when it first was used. I remember when the first Stereo Records were invented. Still no gripes that I can remember.I remember reading about the first stereo Phono Cartridges and the extensive testing by the magazines. Nobody was griping. I remember the many speaker tests, the of the broadcast strength to drive a FM signal to useable strength.

The ability to record practically distortion free recordings is good but not noticeable in the final product. You can listen to recordings made before Solid State on tape and hear excellent sound, long before Cd's. The main gripes I hear today is the lack of any real talent on most releases.


Ray E. Strode
#1107959 - 05/30/16 03:37 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Dec 2001
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Jody Whitesides Offline
Jody Whitesides  Offline

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Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
For people who are either used to making decent money or who believed they could make decent money from songwriting/downloads/music sales, "The sky really is falling"! Nothing in the history of music has had such a deleterious effect on income as the free download phenomenon.

Only fools still do free downloads - streaming is so easy that it makes downloading a waste of your time and hard drive or device space.

Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Whazzat?,
After being exposed to music and mechanical devices to re produce it for many, many years I don't remember one gripe about a new invention. I remember reading about the advent of Stereo FM broadcasts when it first was used. I remember when the first Stereo Records were invented. Still no gripes that I can remember.I remember reading about the first stereo Phono Cartridges and the extensive testing by the magazines. Nobody was griping. I remember the many speaker tests, the of the broadcast strength to drive a FM signal to useable strength.

The ability to record practically distortion free recordings is good but not noticeable in the final product. You can listen to recordings made before Solid State on tape and hear excellent sound, long before Cd's. The main gripes I hear today is the lack of any real talent on most releases.

Cassettes and the story behind them come to mind. The music business hated them soooooo much that they were able to lobby congress to add a tax to the sale of cassettes to subsidize all the "stolen" music from taping and trading tapes. Same with burnable CDs. Despite the fact that cassettes weren't always used for music, and I'd say a plethora of burnable CDs were for data and not music. That's how heavy handed that crap was.

I also remember MP3.com, back when "owning" music was the way to go and get rid of your CDs. Ended up making a small fortune off that IPO. People told me I was crazy for selling my stock opening day.

Home recording via computers - oh that will put every awesome studio out of business.

The music business has been notorious with using arcane methods to holding on to the past. Suing businesses, suing consumers, taking shares in some new companies instead of suing them. There's always naysayers to any new technology that comes along. Saying how it gonna ruin the music business. Yet somehow it manages to plow forward and people still manage to make a living at it. Mostly because, some people actually listen to how the consumer wants to get their music, rather than forcing them into an old school method of buying plastic.

THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!

I hear a ton of talent on lots of new releases. I'm also at the ready to hear something new. When a friend or someone I meet says: have you heard so-and-so? If I haven't, within seconds I can search it on Spotify and hear it immediately. Then I can add to a playlist or follow that artist if I really love what I heard. There's no way I'd be dropping $10-15 on a CD, after which I'd rip it to a hard drive and never look at the plastic again. Streaming wins hands down. Additionally - every time I listen to any song, everyone involved with that song gets payment. Then I can also turn around and mention it to people that follow me, or send the link to other friends via text, twitter, FB, what have you. And every person who hears it from me and listens to that song, again - everyone involved with that song gets paid. Guess who doesn't get paid with my money? The artists who don't find it worthy of having their music on Spotify.

Know what kinds of songs make money? The kind that people share. It was true in the era of FM radio. It was true in the era of 45s. It was true in the era of the album. It was true with cassettes. It was true with CDs. Its still true today.

So go forth and write that song instead of bitching about all the money you're not making.

p.s. - have a great Memorial Day weekend!


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1107960 - 05/30/16 03:56 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Barry David Butler  Online Content
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Sebring, Florida USA
There is a great advantage IF you can go out and sing your own songs and also sell cd and other things at your gigs...It also is better IF you can write words and melody and record it yourself...the more you can do we'll the better...

#1107962 - 05/30/16 06:26 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Barry David Butler]  
Joined: Apr 2007
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John W. Selleck Offline
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John W. Selleck  Offline
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NJ
No one makes money when anyone can download your songs for free or for next to nothing from the sharing sites. P.S. With the Terrabite hard drives, I have enough storage I'll never run out, and I am not a "Fool". You can tell when someone is losing a debate. They start putting others down.
P.S. This isn't about how music is made, it is about how musicians/songwriters, and other artists are being ripped off by not being paid their royalties. And yes, any time a song is downloaded/streamed without full fare being paid, they are being stolen from.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1107967 - 05/30/16 12:02 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: May 2001
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Brunswick, Ga. USA
Um, Well,
I do remember many complaints about the same 20 or so songs in constant rotation on the radio. And you could hear the same 20 or so songs on a station in Cleveland or Fresno! And the music was pretty mediocre to be kind.

I am beginning to understand steaming. The payouts are extremely small to say the least. Remember Pandora going to congress for permission to pay less. Well, you get what you pay for!

So Jody, point me to some of that terrific new talent!


Ray E. Strode
#1108033 - 05/31/16 04:19 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Jody Whitesides Offline
Jody Whitesides  Offline

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Park City, UT, USA
Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
No one makes money when anyone can download your songs for free or for next to nothing from the sharing sites. P.S. With the Terrabite hard drives, I have enough storage I'll never run out, and I am not a "Fool". You can tell when someone is losing a debate. They start putting others down.

I wrote: "Only fools still do free downloads."

Thus if you believe I'm calling you a fool, then something is off with the comprehension of the sentence.

Also John, does this mean you're admitting to downloading music without paying for it? Why are you doing that? And if you're doing that, why are you complaining about artists not getting paid?

Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
So Jody, point me to some of that terrific new talent!

Here's some that come to mind:

Skipworth & Turner.
Waldek
Lukas Graham
Halsey
The Wrecks
The Wldlfe
Jason Derulo
Ed Sheeran
Bruno Mars
Tori Kelly
Ariana Grande
And despite people bagging on him, the new Justin Beiber is quite spectacular. And I really dislike his previous music.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1108057 - 05/31/16 10:26 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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John W. Selleck Offline
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Jody
Let's see, I do free downloads of music I like from websites that offer free original music to share, like soundclick.com.
I also offer free down loads of some of my original songs.
So I would guess you are calling me, and anyone like me a "Fool".



Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108068 - 06/01/16 12:58 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
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Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
Jody
Let's see, I do free downloads of music I like from websites that offer free original music to share, like soundclick.com.
I also offer free down loads of some of my original songs.
So I would guess you are calling me, and anyone like me a "Fool".


That is of your own doing.

The argument of free downloads being deleterious to songwriter's abilities to make money has been rendered moot by this admission.

If one were truly concerned about downloading and storing music being a means of stealing income, they'd forego those free downloads and start making playlists on streaming services of the "free" songs. At least that way they'd be making sure that artist gets paid something for the few times someone listens to their music.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1108074 - 06/01/16 05:09 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Just because I like to share my music for free does not mean many other artist want to do the same, so it is only "Moot" in my particular case.
There are many sites where people can go and download copyrighted songs for free. If you don't realize that this is costing many artists lots of money, ask the artists. Look at the amounts of money songwriters used to make on royalties compared to what they make now. Look at the amount of money artists used to make on CD sales or airplay compared to now!


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108120 - 06/01/16 08:23 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jim Colyer]  
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Originally Posted by Jim Colyer
Seems like everybody wants to be a rich and famous singer and songwriter.



Well, if I could just make a humble living at it, that would be ecstasy for me.

#1108130 - 06/01/16 10:47 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
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Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
Just because I like to share my music for free does not mean many other artist want to do the same, so it is only "Moot" in my particular case.
There are many sites where people can go and download copyrighted songs for free. If you don't realize that this is costing many artists lots of money, ask the artists. Look at the amounts of money songwriters used to make on royalties compared to what they make now. Look at the amount of money artists used to make on CD sales or airplay compared to now!

You're twisting the situation to fit your needs.

First its: illegal downloading is killing the music industry.

I counter with: Streaming is so simple only fools continue to download and store music (illegally was implied).

Then its: I download music and store it, plus I give mine away so you're calling me a fool.

I respond with: That is of your own doing.

Third its: I choose to do it, but its still killing the industry just ask other folks.

So I'll close with: Don't argue about an aspect of the industry you clearly want no part in. Wishing for how it was in the past and correlating it to the present and the future of the industry, a paying version of that future, then ignoring it by stating its your choice to download music instead of using methods that actually pay other artists and/or yourself is not so much an argument or debate as it is willful disregard to see yourself and your fellow artists get paid.

Its your choice to make your music available for free. However there are equally simple ways to make your music available to others wherein you get paid. Then instead of giving it away, you could actually send someone link, just like you do now for your free download. The difference is, they could still listen but you get paid. The bonus is: every time they listen you'd get paid. Instead of - here, have it I don't want to be paid.

Which scenario is better John? Not being paid at all. Or getting paid and then working for the laws to change to make that payment better?

If the answer is: Not being paid at all. Then its the end of the discussion.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1108131 - 06/01/16 11:05 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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The discussion was about how the prevalence of sites like YouTube that allow anyone to steal/use your music/videos has financially hurt songwriters and artists. You don't seem to get that. You call anyone a fool who downloads any songs, then try to spin it. Streaming pays a fraction of what was paid for plays, or what was paid in royalties. You don't seem to get that either. Now it's the end of the discussion!

Last edited by John W. Selleck; 06/01/16 11:14 PM.

Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108137 - 06/02/16 05:14 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
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Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
The discussion was about how the prevalence of sites like YouTube that allow anyone to steal/use your music/videos has financially hurt songwriters and artists. You don't seem to get that.

I first responded with "THE SKY IS FALLING" post. Then you jumped on me about streaming, free downloads and the like.

To answer your YouTube situation that "I don't get". YouTube allows artists/songwriters/content creators to have their music removed via takedowns - you contact them, tell them you didn't give permission, they take it down. Plain and simple. Or you can sign up for their service ContentID and it becomes a bit more automatic. I can allow for the fact you may not have known that is possible. Beyond YouTube, you can use things like WebWolf (I think that's what they're called) to be your eyes/ears on the net and hit offenders with DMCA takedowns.

Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
You call anyone a fool who downloads any songs, then try to spin it.

I didn't call everyone who downloads any songs a fool. I called those who download songs for free a fool - because streaming services make it substantially easier to stream music (and they pay the creators) and not have to store it locally (storing things locally costs money to the end user and pays the artist nothing). You took that as a personal attack. I'm all for people buying their music if they prefer to own an MP3/CD/Vinyl/Cassettes etc. Hence, I'm for making sure people get paid for their work when its listened to, every time its listened to. That's not spin, that's simple economics. It was a response to your "free downloads were deleterious to the industry" comment. Streaming pays, free downloads don't. How is that spin?

BTW - you mentioned sites for illegal downloading and how its hurting artists and writers. Explain how being an advocate for streaming over free/illegal downloads as being unaware? Then you compare streaming as being fractional compared to the old school method of the practice of selling plastic and traditional airwaves. So lets get into the nitty gritty of their breakdowns.

Yes, selling plastic was certainly an advantage to upfront monies, but in sheer percentages it was actually worse. A $15 CD (1500 cents) would yield a possible $0.91 for a songwriter & publisher who wrote all the songs on a CD (in case you weren't aware albums only paid for 10 songs on a CD/Album even if there are more than 10 songs). Thus that's roughly 0.0364% of the full sale minus printing/shipping costs which factor into the rate paid, I'm being real generous to say that's $2.50. I should also allow for distribution costs which would actually yield the label about $6 net on a $15 CD - but I'll ignore it for now. Oh and lets assume the rate wasn't negotiated down to 75% of statutory which may still be at $0.091. Then divide that $0.091 by 2 as half goes to the writer, half goes to the publisher. The math is: [(($0.091 * 10)/2)/(1500-250) = 0.0364%]. But lets look at a songwriter who wrote only one song they get 0.00364% of the sale.

Now, with the streaming if you're the sole writer on a song, you actually make 0.075% of the stream (the split is 70% of stream goes to master rights owner, 30% divided amongst writer/publisher/mechanical/performer) [30% of stream paid / 4 = 0.075%].

Which is the better fraction to have as a writer? If you believe it's the plastic sale, then more power to ya.

In the case of the "airwaves" (I'm going to believe you mean traditional radio): There is no real clear way to know exactly what a writer makes per radio spin of a song. This is because its unfairly weighted to songs that play more often than those that don't. PROs use bizarre algorithms to approximate how much to pay. That version of the system works against smaller artists by paying them less that what they may truly be owed and pays larger artists more than they're probably owed.

Streaming levels that field in that: you get paid exactly for the amount of streams you got, no more, no less. Thus its a way more fair representation of how much you should get, based on how much your song is actually listened to. Plus Spotify actually posts the number of streams a song has had on their service, provided it's over 1,000. Anything under 1,000 shows as <1000. However, even if its less than 1,000, you are still being paid for each and every stream at a percentage rate that is better than a sale.

Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
Streaming pays a fraction of what was paid for plays, or what was paid in royalties. You don't seem to get that either.

Streaming pays a fraction of what kind of plays John? What kind of royalties are you referring to John? Writer's? Publisher's? Mechanicals? Based on what model of business are you referencing? Being that I just wrote a response above, you're welcome to check the math.

Tell me what you assume I don't get? Give specific examples of what I'm "not getting" based on your expertise.

BTW - You haven't answered the question: "Which scenario is better John? Not being paid at all. Or getting paid and then working for the laws to change to make that payment better?"


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1108140 - 06/02/16 09:10 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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"I didn't call everyone who downloads any songs a fool. I called those who download songs for free a fool - because streaming services make it substantially easier to stream music (and they pay the creators) and not have to store it locally (storing things locally costs money to the end user and pays the artist nothing)."

Here is your statement.

"Only fools still do free downloads - streaming is so easy that it makes downloading a waste of your time and hard drive or device space."

I still do free downloads from other people who choose to share their music like I do. I choose not to stream because I either like to listen to live music or commercial free radio or any from my selection of thousands of songs on my hard drives. I am still not a fool for doing this.

Anyone can see that the free download and share sites are costing artists, publishers and songwriters income. If YouTube has a song/music video up for one month before anyone notices how much income has been lost, how about 2 month, 3 months, 6 months... How many can download that video for free and how many others can they share it with?
You can lead the blind but you can't make them see.

Last edited by John W. Selleck; 06/02/16 09:22 AM.

Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108143 - 06/02/16 10:30 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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OYE....This discussion gives One Big Heartburn.
Where is Ayn When you Need Her...lol
Barry

#1108146 - 06/02/16 12:44 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
"I didn't call everyone who downloads any songs a fool. I called those who download songs for free a fool - because streaming services make it substantially easier to stream music (and they pay the creators) and not have to store it locally (storing things locally costs money to the end user and pays the artist nothing)."

Here is your statement.

"Only fools still do free downloads - streaming is so easy that it makes downloading a waste of your time and hard drive or device space."

I still do free downloads from other people who choose to share their music like I do. I choose not to stream because I either like to listen to live music or commercial free radio or any from my selection of thousands of songs on my hard drives. I am still not a fool for doing this.

You're right. I'll qualify my statement with illegal free downloads, which would now encompass the "everyone + any" part you added. And downloading while easy to do, is still more complicated than streaming. John, you are perpetuating the very thing you're complaining about and still wasting hard drive space.

You could support your fellow artists by the following ways: Purchasing their MP3s instead of downloading them for free. You could purchase their CDs instead of downloading for free. You could get a premium streaming account instead of downloading for free. Each of those ways means paying support to your fellow artists and breaks away from the free/illegal mentality.

BTW - a premium streaming account is akin to your commercial free radio in that you hear no commercials and you can listen to the service's stations, artist stations, make your own station/playlist or search any song and listen to it immediately. The latter being something you can't do on radio. Oh and the beauty of a premium streaming account is that the artist gets paid 3x+ more per stream than the commercial laden "free" streaming accounts ala Spotify, YouTube and Apple Music. Which are the three biggest of bunch. Yes, there is a paid YouTube account called YouTube Red. Which gets you commercial free videos and pays the content creators more than the normal unpaid YouTube views.

Oh and a premium account costs less per year than purchasing hard drives to store all that music and video and back it up.

Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
Anyone can see that the free download and share sites are costing artists, publishers and songwriters income. If YouTube has a song/music video up for one month before anyone notices how much income has been lost, how about 2 month, 3 months, 6 months... How many can download that video for free and how many others can they share it with?

I provided the answer to this very question in my previous response. John, you have ignored it because you're upset about my labeling people who decide to perpetuate the free download mentality as fools. YouTube's ContentID will catch it (in a matter of hours or days, not months) - end of story. Using a 3rd party company to take down music you create from any other "free" source will cost you money to defend your copyrights, but can be done. Prince is/was famous for doing it.

John, since you're using YouTube in part of this example: You'll know exactly how many people saw/listened it if you look at the "views" number under the video - provided you haven't used ContentID to take it down. Then you can use math and whatever royalty rate you've hinted at to calculate your loss.

Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
You can lead the blind but you can't make them see.

I've provided the math and ways to avoid what you're so adamantly adhering to John. I've asked specific questions for you to answer and they've been ignored. Ignored for the same regurgitated answer about how the free downloading and YouTube thing is killing artists. Writing something like: cause anyone can see it unless they're blind isn't an answer with facts. John, what is your solution to the issue?

There are artists who are making a living from YouTube despite the payout numbers. The number one artist that comes to mind is Lindsey Stirling. Her whole career launched thanks to YouTube. As did Pentatonix. And of course Justin Bieber's career also launched from YouTube. Talent levels can be debated ad nauseam, but it appears people can make money in the new music business.

p.s. - I couldn't find your BMI songs on any services that pays songwriters that I have accounts for. Not YouTube, not Spotify, nor iTunes. You might make a potential new fan when you're available on those services and make some additional money to boot. I put my money where my mouth is - I pay to listen to the music I hear.

Originally Posted by Barry David Butler
OYE....This discussion gives One Big Heartburn.
Where is Ayn When you Need Her...lol

Barry, were you aware of all the numbers before or after reading the article? Or are you simply adding to the chorus in complaining by superstars about something that is a solution to the free downloading? I tried searching for a song called "One Big Heartburn" but its not on the services (youtube, spotify, iTunes). Which part of it is a heartburn? Why drag Ayn Rand into it?


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1108148 - 06/02/16 01:08 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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The discussion was about YouTube and the amount of revenue people are losing because of sites like it. I didn't go off topic. You started the mess by saying anyone who downloads is a fool without qualifying it. I have bought over 500 CD's and stored them on my hard drives. I have over 2 terabytes now, and still have plenty of room. I don't download copyrighted music for free. No, I am not a big name songwriter. I did co-write a # 1 CMA song in the UK for 2 weeks and 22 weeks across Europe. I am not famous, and if I never make any more money by my songwriting it won't kill me, or give me one sleepless night.

Last edited by John W. Selleck; 06/02/16 01:10 PM.

Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108149 - 06/02/16 01:27 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well,
And to think I am copying a few of my LP's onto CD so I can play them from time to time. Gee, I finally copied a Johnny Cash Album I have had since the early 60's. Never too late I always say. I have no problem with paying for a streaming service if that's what you want. Am I right that you can pick the type of music you want to hear? Well things have really progressed since the days you could call a Radio Station and request a Tune. Do they still have Consultants selecting what you will hear. I finally looked for a song I hadn't heard since it came out in the 50's. 40'Th and Plum by Wayne Rainey. Hey, Google it, you will like it! And keep those requests, er downloads ,er streaming coming. Can't stop progress you know.


Ray E. Strode
#1108150 - 06/02/16 01:59 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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John W. Selleck Offline
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The funny thing is, I only listen to new music now when I am out in a dance club. The rest of the time I am either listening to classic country, practicing for karaoke, or working on my own songs. I do listen to MP3's from JPF now and again too. There is nothing wrong with progress unless it allows people to steal.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108152 - 06/02/16 02:39 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Not complaining at and just thought it an interesting Article...
IT IS WHAT IT IS...and that's a pretty good title..lo

#1108156 - 06/02/16 03:01 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Uh, Well,
There were 3 songs that stayed Number One on the Charts for 21 weeks. Not just around the top but Number One.
Hank Snow had a song he wrote that he wanted to record. The Label didn't particularly like the song. At that time they were using a Hotel Room in Chicago to record in. After recording the songs they came to record they had time for one more, So, Hank Recorded the song. It became his biggest hit I'M MOVING ON.

Webb Pierce liked many of Jimmy Rogers songs and recorded a few of them. He changed the tempo on one of them and recorded it. IN THE JAIL HOUSE NOW.
I think it was sometime later Eddy Arnold recorded I REALLY DON'T WANT TO KNOW. I had 2 of them on CD. While playing a CD I discovered I have the third one as well. It is amazing how good those old songs and recordings still sound!


Ray E. Strode
#1108157 - 06/02/16 03:11 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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John W. Selleck Offline
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Especially compared to most of the new ones Ray!


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108173 - 06/02/16 05:47 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
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Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
The discussion was about YouTube and the amount of revenue people are losing because of sites like it.

Prove to me that the "system is rigged aganist the artist" because of YouTube and sites like it. Show me facts and numbers. So far there is no basis to back up your posts with simple math or actual examples. That article doesn't even have clear hard facts/numbers - just hearsay from people saying its not enough.

Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
There is nothing wrong with progress unless it allows people to steal.

There will always be people who steal. But when a service makes the product so easy to use, it makes stealing said product a silly waste of time. In this case with YouTube, people (meaning songwriters here) get paid by one of two ways: commercials/ads viewed on the video and premium accounts that view the video. They make it so easy to watch, that's just plain silly to download it.

The payout structure works much the same as any other streaming service (Spotify, Apple Music, Deezer, Tidal, et al). Non premium accounts that consume content still pays the creator at a better percentage than the old selling plastic method. I've provided the math - its indisputable. Which is probably why you've not answered any of the questions I've posed. Even if they seem small, their percentages are still better than plastic's percentages. What is interesting is that people aren't looking at it that way. The takeaway from that article is exactly what I mentioned: change the law. You watch how fast things change when laws get updated.

YouTube and other streaming services are so easy and so ubiquitous now, that downloading is actually a hassle. Getting a premium account only increases the ease - and increases the amount of money artists who get watched/streamed get paid.


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#1108178 - 06/02/16 07:01 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides

BTW - You haven't answered the question: "Which scenario is better John? Not being paid at all. Or getting paid and then working for the laws to change to make that payment better?"


John, with "then working for the laws to change to make that payment better" Jody is at least admitting that the payment could be better.

Is everyone that downloads a fool? What about folks who plan on quitting the Internet for awhile? Or people going into or living in Internet challenged countries? Or what about most Internet users who experience I P throttling, late in their billing month, and can't stream without it breaking or constantly buffering? In essence, when you stream a file over and over, you are "downloading" it over and over, in terms of bandwidth usage, and have no file on the desktop at the end of the day.

But I also see Jody's point here. I think it can be hard for some folks to change. It's easy to think in terms of "ownership"-- we've been thinking that way for a long time. But now it's becoming absurd--like the thought of owning air. Why bottle air? Why collect MP3s when you know you can stream free and legally for the most part, on the Internet? Certainly if you're gonna go live on a desert island where A T & T has no coverage--or maybe even if you are a "survivalist" and are planning for the coming Armageddon..but otherwise, Jody makes a good point, although calling anyone a "fool" for downloading is a little presumptuous, I think, as there certainly can be good reasons for doing so. Perhaps John lived in a part of Thailand (he did for several years) where Internet was iffy?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/02/16 08:28 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1108184 - 06/02/16 11:41 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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NJ
When I can buy a terabyte of storage for $100 that I can use into infinity to store music, set up my own playlists to "Stream" from my own computer, add my own music and any music I like from downloads of others who share their music like me, why would I bother to stream?
Who believes that artists, publishers, songwriters etc. are complaining about lost revenue just to hear themselves complain? Raise your hands please. There are plenty out there who will always download what they want for free rather than paying any minimal amount to stream. Creating more laws have only worked to send people to the dark web to do what they want.
And yes, I will pay to download MP3's of any songs I really like to add to my library. I personally don't care if I get paid for what I have created but I will always stand for the rights of those who do.
P.S. I don't have the time, or the inclination to waste it going through the tons of sites here to prove that people are losing money to free download/sharing sites. I have talked to enough people who used to make much better money songwriting before than they do now, since the advent of sharing. That is proof enough for me.

PPS Out of curiosity I did Google this and did find tons of articles, this one from "The Wall Street Journal".

http://www.wsj.com/articles/songwriters-lose-out-on-royalties-1444864895

Last edited by John W. Selleck; 06/02/16 11:55 PM.

Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108589 - 06/14/16 09:44 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Jul 2011
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R&M Offline
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R&M  Offline
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No matter what, there still seems to be a market for who will pay for that physical copy. Before the net, people recorded music for free from the library or friend, the internet is a vast library.
I am not going to go too far off topic and covolute things. But the entertainment medium could have had all what we do now, with ethernet that was originally used by the goverment and large corporations that was stumbled on to to give us the internet, as well as inventions from Nikola Tesla over 100 years ago. What is let out or pilferred in the medium is an extention. It seems to come down of what people will buy with what is in their hands, whatever they can download or get for free otherwise.

#1108615 - 06/14/16 04:46 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: R&M]  
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Jim Colyer Offline
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Jim Colyer  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Nashville, Tennessee usa
Music Row is rigged, but I keep trying to break down the wall.

#1108617 - 06/14/16 06:05 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jim Colyer]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,238
Barry David Butler Online content
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Barry David Butler  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,238
Sebring, Florida USA
It's a Trump Wall and Mexico is gonna pay for it.
For now in 2016 there is no break down the wall. You must write KILLER song for an up and coming singer and band for them to play live and record....short to that....just smoke a huge Doobie, get in your hammock under a large tree and CHILL...LOL

#1108618 - 06/14/16 06:35 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Barry David Butler]  
Joined: Jun 2006
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Jim Colyer Offline
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Jim Colyer  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Nashville, Tennessee usa
I want to record with Savanna Smallwood.

https://www.facebook.com/savanna.smallwood

She is 22 and up here from Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

#1108619 - 06/14/16 06:39 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jim Colyer]  
Joined: Jun 2006
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Jim Colyer Offline
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Jim Colyer  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Nashville, Tennessee usa
I will put Savanna's vocal on LIVE MY DREAMS and pitch it to the labels with her help.

LIVE MY DREAMS
http://jimcolyer.com/sitebuilder/flash/player?f=/music/flash/playlist.xml%3Ft%3D853

#1108739 - 06/16/16 02:04 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Apr 2009
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beechnut79 Offline
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beechnut79  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,136
Villa Park IL
By now you have probably heard that Led Zeppelin members are now being sued over a musical passage from their classic "Stairway to Heaven".

#1108740 - 06/16/16 02:06 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: beechnut79]  
Joined: Dec 2008
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Posts: 8,282
PA
Originally Posted by beechnut79
By now you have probably heard that Led Zeppelin members are now being sued over a musical passage from their classic "Stairway to Heaven".


Yeah, got to keep those blood-sucking lawyers fed. Or they'll be attacking us little guys. grin

John smile

#1110484 - 07/11/16 01:08 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Mar 2006
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Aaron Authier Offline
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Aaron Authier  Offline
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I bought the new Blink 182 cd from Walmart. You should have seen the look on the 20 something cashiers face when she asked me why I was buying a cd. I gotta have all the Blink CDs. That's just the way it is. I don't even have a CD player anymore. I ripped it to my computer and put it on my iPod. Now even ripping music seems outdated. When I am away from wifi to stream music I will use my iPod. It's 2016 people, get with the times or get left behind', in a music thread complaining that millionaires aren't getting paid enough money.

Last edited by airun; 07/11/16 01:08 PM.
#1111590 - 07/27/16 09:54 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,016
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,016
Indianapolis, IN USA
Jody,

You need only look back to pre 2000 to see how much more writers and artists could make for their music. New technology has expanded creative options and upped the quality of even the most marginal talents but it has erased what little money was out there for most. You may be making some money right now, but you're in the tiny minority and I doubt it is enough to raise a family on.

There's no point in screaming about it... but the days of anyone outside the massive corporate music empires making money is over.. the only real option now is to simply put something brilliant up on YouTube or similar sites and find an audience organically and hope you can properly monetize the momentum and short attention burst.



Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
The sky is falling!
THE sky is falling!!
THE SKY is falling!!!
THE SKY IS falling!!!!
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!

Oh no, the sky is falling. This is the same thing that happens every time a new format to deliver music has come into existence.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#1111637 - 07/28/16 01:27 AM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Jun 2006
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Jim Colyer Offline
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Jim Colyer  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Nashville, Tennessee usa
"Rigged" is a big word these days. Good title. Who'll write it?

#1111666 - 07/28/16 12:32 PM Re: System is Rigged Aganist The Artist [Re: Jim Colyer]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,686
Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,686
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Rigged? Oh, Rigged,
Back in the 50's maybe somebody wrote a song, GIVE ME 40 ACRES AND I'LL TURN THIS RIG AROUND. May have been Lonzo and Oscar.

Well, I checked. It was the Willis Brothers.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 07/28/16 12:35 PM.

Ray E. Strode
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