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#1101667 - 03/03/16 10:55 PM 99 reasons the Industry has problems  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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[b][/b]If anyone is actually interested in the issues facing the industry and ultimately facing us all, you might need to read up on the realities of where we are now. This came out today and echos a lot of things I and others have been talking about for a long time. I hope this helps you understand things we are all being faced with.

MAB
http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/02/25/the-music-industry-has-99-problems-and-they-are/

#1101670 - 03/03/16 11:28 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Dan Sullivan Offline
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That's a mighty dose of gloom and doom for all those making money in the music industry. I'm not sure it has anything to do with the rest of us. It says something that the last type of music mentioned as being under fire is classical music, which has been around longer than all the other genres. Mozart, Bach and Beethoven proved long ago you can't kill good music.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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#1101671 - 03/03/16 11:45 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Two sides of the opportunity coin Marc. The Internet and new technology has opened up new opportunities. Like every break-through in technology, new jobs open up. Old ones expire.

John smile

#1101672 - 03/03/16 11:45 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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The music industry has problems chiefly because most ot the music is lousy.

#1101758 - 03/05/16 12:53 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Jim Colyer]  
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The music industry is pretty much dead meat!

There may still be a few who have no other things to try, but I can't imagine anyone looking for a career in the music industry considered the current state of affairs. The old busines models are not working anymore, and very few can make the new ones sustainable.

Well, maybe except for rich kids who doesn't have to make money, or have a big buffer of money to invest up front. The quote you used to have MAB, about starting out with two million in order to make one, may actually be more accurate than fun. So those who can be artists in the future may well be those who can afford it, apart from those who accept to muddle through.

So, we may be facing a case where people create exactly the same things, but for a hell of a lot different reasons. Everything changes and stays the same ect ect.


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
#1101788 - 03/05/16 08:03 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Kolstad]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Aw, Humm,
You think the Music Industry has problems. Thee is a Post on Fox News that it is lousy to work on Capital Hill. No kidding. Debbie Wasserman Schultz says there are not enough uh femeine products in the bathrooms for those in need. Also the Food is lousy in the eateries! Also the Aides to all those elected officials are poorly paid! Hey, I have an idea. Just move all those Social Programs back to the States and then Congress will not have to be in session 365 days a year and work 20. Geronimo!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 03/05/16 08:04 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1101872 - 03/06/16 09:24 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Kolstad]  
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I worked for Tower Records for almost twenty years, and it was great seeing the recent movie "All Things Must Pass" that Colin Hanks just made about the franchise that filed for bankruptcy in 2005.

The prevalent attitude (amongst all the ex-Tower people) was that they surfed the wave of a music boom, through the sixties, seventies, and eighties, and will never regret it. It was quite a ride. I enjoyed my Tower days. But like the title of the movie says..

Some things happen, and they are unique, or singularities. So I tend to view the Music Industry in it's heyday like that. Kind of an aberration, brought on by boomers having money to spend, and no Internet piracy (yet) where sales can leak through the cracks, or other forms of entertainment like video games and cable to cut in on the money.

And I tend to share some of John Schick's (and in other posts Jody Whitesides') reserved optimism. The love of music is still there. Great artists are still there..the premium for beauty seems to be at an all-time low..but there ARE some good things happening and other good things on the horizon. I for one am not discouraged, mainly because I love music and as long as I can have some modest existence while being who I can't help but be--then I am grateful and happy to be alive--and alive NOW, when the future seems, at least to me, ripe with possibilities.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/06/16 10:04 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1101909 - 03/07/16 03:41 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Anything you try to be successful at takes work and dedication. I think a lot of new people thing all you have to do is put out a weak product, put it on the internet and then sit back and rake in the dough. You will have to work a lot harder and then may not see success.


Ray E. Strode
#1101926 - 03/07/16 06:36 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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MidniteBob Online content
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
[b][/b]If anyone is actually interested in the issues facing the industry and ultimately facing us all, you might need to read up on the realities of where we are now. This came out today and echos a lot of things I and others have been talking about for a long time. I hope this helps you understand things we are all being faced with.

MAB
http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/02/25/the-music-industry-has-99-problems-and-they-are/


Good to hear from you again, Marc. Thanks for taking the time to post this!

...I can't imagine what it must be like for anyone who is actually trying to make a living from music...

To paraphrase the "original" Tiny Tim: God bless you, everyone.

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1101933 - 03/07/16 08:41 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: MidniteBob]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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Anyone watching Vinyl? Love to see some of the label's underhandedness dramatized.

Article does paint an industry undergoing some very painful change.


Will the last person leaving Nashville please turn out the lights
We've had a good run but the bills need paying and the cash flow's gotten pretty tight
Creative destruction my ass, Schumpeter was tone deaf and what he said can't be right
"Cause if he was it would be better that this and all I see is a sad and sorry sight



If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#1101936 - 03/07/16 09:57 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
Anyone watching Vinyl? Love to see some of the label's underhandedness dramatized.

Article does paint an industry undergoing some very painful change.


Will the last person leaving Nashville please turn out the lights
We've had a good run but the bills need paying and the cash flow's gotten pretty tight
Creative destruction my ass, Schumpeter was tone deaf and what he said can't be right
"Cause if he was it would be better that this and all I see is a sad and sorry sight



It's gotten mixed reviews, but it's Scorsese and Terence Winter (the showrunner of Boardwalk Empire), and the period, setting, and theme are all up my alley, so I'll be watching--especially since it's HBO--they give their shows a chance to mature, and they could care less about ratings--just whether or not it's any good, cuz they know in this new paradigm, a good show will make them money for decades beyond the present..so yeah..I'm in for sure. smile

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/07/16 10:03 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1101955 - 03/08/16 08:54 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Vicarn Offline
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Most people you speak to want something for nothing, so you give them that in the form of free downloads, streaming and other gimmicks.
Eventually you run out of the "something" because if there's nothing going in, nothing is coming out.

I'm glad I don't do this for a living anymore.

Vic




It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.
http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

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#1101981 - 03/08/16 05:53 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Vicarn]  
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Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1101998 - 03/08/16 06:24 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Now that you mention it,
I read a post over on Gearslutz that a studio Owner Mused the Idea of allowing Artists to Record Free in their Studio for a share of the profits from the release. NOT A GOOD IDEA! You will most likely never see a dime of the profits. Artists that write, record, and release their product and put it on some Music Service will also most likely never see a dime in return. The path is strewn with Artists that signed a Recording Contract with a Major Label and sold tons of records and received nothing in return. The Labels get all the rights to the recordings up front. And after they recoup all their expenses, most likely never, does the Artist see any return. May be better to keep your day job, you will make more.


Ray E. Strode
#1102002 - 03/08/16 06:37 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Michael LeBlanc Offline
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get a tip jar!

#1102095 - 03/09/16 03:51 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Hello folks,

Have been in the Carribean on vacation for a week. Will try to respond to you on this.Elements of what all of you are saying are correct.

Much of the music is lousy. Just like the rest of the culture. People are entitled, demand everything for free, and expectations of quality are vastly diminished. And the AUDIENCE leads the demand for it, not the other way around with artists. When they expect less, they accept less.

There is a lot of good music out there, good artists, some break through, most don't. If you read anything about history this is the same in every form of entertainment, television, movies, music, there are many more "one hit wonders" than long term artists.
Again, none of this is new.

The music business is NOT QUITE toast. Profits are up in some cases, down in some. But sitting around waiting for the :"big labels to die" is a waste of time because that never happens. Ever hear of some of those names? SONY? WARNER BROTHERS? Think they are going away just because something is not as profitable? Nonsense. They are diversified into other things, product divisions, motion pictures, television, if one part of a business is unprofitable they either jettison that or make it up in other areas.

There is always a small percentage of artists, writers, producers, labels, publishers, etc. that do just fine. It is like....well...ONE PERCENT.
Sound familiar? JUST LIKE THE REST OF SOCIETY.

Will the last person in Nashville please turn off the lights? That would be cool, because you can't get around in this town because of all the cars, can't find an apartment because of the thousands of people moving here, prices are at all time highs, the economy is booming and the population is expected to double in the next five years. So on our last legs? Not hardly. It is not all music, but we are going to be a major music center for a long time. Those that are waiting for the "death throes" are probably going to need to hang on to their obituaries for a while. Ain't happening.

Midnite, the people who are MAKING a living have been doing it in different ways for nearly two decades. And I have talked about it ad nauseam here over and over. Hit writers became producers, publishers switched to artist development, record companies to distributors. The "Outside cut" died a long time ago and outsiders have to work harder to become insiders. Doesn't happen by mailing anything in over the Internet.

Get a tip jar? Yep. Musicians are making about the same as we did in 1973. Which is why all musicians have other jobs.
There is a reason there is a term STARVING ARTIST. Because they always have. ASCAP was founded because Stephen Foster died with thirty seven cents in his pocket. That is about what you get out of most streaming services today.

There is enormous product. There is an open door world called the Internet which killed the conventional music business. These things happen. You adjust and adapt or you don't.

I posted this just to show all of you what the "other side" looks like. Nobody has to deal with it. Nobody has to pay any attention. Most of you have no interest in the music business at all. That is all fine. Hell, I DON'T EVEN LIKE THE MUSIC BUSINESS.

But I have to deal with REALITY and have to pass on what I learn and understand. I put it out there. How you deal with it is up to you. But it is real, It is here and everyone who wants to be involved in this, even if it is putting something on their own web site, writing something for their family, singing in a bar, you have to be aware of what THOSE people go through.

The rest is up to your own personal preferences and desires. Don't shoot the messenger. I just put it up there. And I didn't even write it. Just found it interesting.

Have a good day.
MAB

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 03/09/16 09:04 PM.
#1108187 - 06/03/16 06:02 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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songcat Offline
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Is it really this bad or is the industry just shifting with the old timers not being able to adapt? I mean, it's easy to complain and maybe Nashville is not doing well compared to a million years ago. I'm not in the Nashville scene. But, I am involved in the scene in New York and Toronto a lot, basically living between the two cities for the most part and the general mood here is upbeat and optimistic at least with the industry people I connect with. A lot of exciting changes in the making. Yes, the industry is not the same as it used to be but, let's face it, every industry is changing. You either adapt or try to live in the past.

I didn't read the entire article above but one point stood out which I would like to address.

"94. Songwriters are often paid pennies for successful tracks, even top-charting songs on major streaming and internet radio platforms. In the latest episode, it was revealed that Kevin Kadish, writer of the smash hit ‘All About That Bass’ by Megan Trainor, made just $5,679 for 178 million streams."

Okay, that sounds bad. BUT, how much did he make from other royalty streams? Radio play, downloads, TV, sync, etc. I mean, ASCAP is collecting more royalties than ever (http://www.streetinsider.com/Press+Releases/ASCAP+Revenue+Tops+$1+Billion+for+Second+Year+in+a+Row%3A+Market-Leading+PRO+Strengthens+Core+Business,+Continues+Transformation/11551459.html).

It's like a waiter at a high end restaurant complaining about making $15/hour salary while getting $200/hour in tips. Streaming is a tiny part of Kevin's income. He's doing well overall, no doubt about it!


http://songcat.biz - Where Timeless Creations Happen

Contact me at chris.erhardt@songcat.biz
#1108191 - 06/03/16 10:52 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Jim Colyer]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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YES....

#1108197 - 06/03/16 02:26 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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Just think about this, an artist/songwriter/publisher... owned streaming site where anyone who wants to hear any music from this artist has to pay a sign up fee, and a play fee for every song streamed through a player from this site only able to decode if the bill is paid on time. If he streams any one song enough times to qualify, or if he chooses to prepay, he can download that song for free to a this locked player, read no shares. I see this as the only way anyone is going to be able to make a decent living in music anymore except for performing artists and it would even give them a way to make extra money.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1108199 - 06/03/16 03:24 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: John W. Selleck]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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There is an article in the July Issue of Consumers Report about the Streaming Services and the Fees they Charge. The Fees are very low to say the least. Apple $10.00 per month, Pandora $5.00 per month, etc. I would think you need to be a big artist to make anything to speak of with these services.


Ray E. Strode
#1109285 - 06/25/16 08:18 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Well, the hard working musician that has to start from nothing and work their way up seems to be a bit obscured from the ongoing hype of overnight success, which only have seemed to increase with the internet. But from what MAB and others have said with it, it still seems to be a matter of putting one self out there.
I can only go as far back as the indie and grunge musicians that I have seen trying to make their impact.
But even at that, the few times I have heard of writers/musicians making it that didn't perform or do well in it had their songs done by performers who went through the process.
At least if it is something lasting for more than a few dollar downloads here and there.

#1109304 - 06/25/16 12:31 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: R&M]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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R&M,

(You never sign your posts so I don't know your name), EVERY musician has ALWAYS started from nothing. All careers, businesses, are that. You don't just start with things. Even people who have famous relatives, fathers, siblings, etc. often find it HARDER to gain a foothold in the business because the expectations are higher, and many people are actually predisposed to dislike them from the beginning.

The problem that has come over the past few years is the "entry level" of music is gone. There are so many musicians, writers, artists, (around 30 million of them) that there is no where for them to start. Live players all have to play for free or actually pay to play. Once again, this is absolutely nothing new. In Los Angeles and New York for 30 years people have had to sell tickets to be able to even play on most stages or guarntee audiences. How do you guarantee an audience if no one knows who you are? You better find a way.

The Internet was perfect for musicians and artists because it allowed them to get music out there without having radio airplay. That is how the entire Seattle Grunge movement was created. Hundreds of thousands of college kids, finding and downloading songs, finding bands. But the bands were OUT there in the first place to be found. And the point of the net was GIVING AWAY music.

That set the tone for everything and as music became more accesable, more people used it and then more people took adavantage of it. With NAPSTER and Illegal downloading and then an attitude of "All music should be free" from the public and a desire to give it away from the industry, bands, artists, it created it's own problems. And of course, most music that is OUT THERE by amateur artists and writers are WORTH EXACTLY THAT. NOTHING.

Then came the contests shows like American Idol. Everyone was going for those, and everyone paid. Paid to travel to locations, paid entrance fees, hotel bills, expenses. Paid for recording and promotion people. Publishers, who could no longer make money on songs, switched to artist development, quit listening to songs not in their personal involvement. Hit writers did the same thing and formed their own production and publishing companies.

And the public got it all wrapped up and delivered to them, the artists had to do everything themselves including promoting themselves and building fan bases BEFORE they were even considered by anyone in the industry. And since it COSTS money to promote and build your fan base, most were weeded out.

Artists now do crowd funding, like Go Fund me, or have to find their own investors to do anything. And still to GIVE it away.
The "360 deal", which means record labels get half of all touring ,merchandising, endorsements, etc. FOR LIFE from their artists and writers, was invented by AMERICAN IDOL and now is the industry standard.

More and more people went to social networking, Facebook. Twitter, Snap Chat, whatever the fad of the moment is, YOU TUBE becomes the number one venue for video and careers. Everyone is doing it. Streaming becomes a way many people get their music. And with the easier access. what is paid out decreases.

Welcome to the law of SUPPLY AND DEMAND. As supply increases, demand and money paid for anything decreases.

So with venues and the public having unlimited supply of artists and writers, songs and more, all delivered for free. Publihsers, who used to control the songs, make no money at it so they are out of the song business. It takes people working harder and harder to do anything. And there is more against you. And of course there are things like unlimited lawsuits against copyright infringement, like the Led Zepplin case, that make people just go, "What's the point of any of this any more?" Professional writers quit. Amateurs rule. Money dissapears.

And that is the state of the music industry. FREE MUSIC. Welcome to it.

MAB

#1109504 - 06/27/16 05:21 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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I told my latest singer that I'm going to devote the rest of my life to getting my songs cut on major labels.

#1109527 - 06/27/16 11:50 PM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Jim Colyer]  
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MAB:

My name is Matt. Can I call you Marc?

I would like to further make my point by referencing myself. I hope that doesn't bore the members.

To say first off, I would be both under and over qualified for contests myself.

When I first came here, my recordings were listed in certain playlists with influences mentioned. But I either did not know much about those forms or came in with my own slant. Not much scaled or prose. And the pros and conformists see that just about every time. The odds are going to be against who does not conform either way.

I looked at the net as a way of getting in to the picture with my endeavors, soundtracking, albums, et al without being a performer. It seemed pretty innocent to me.

I like the depiction in my head of Billy Joel with The Piano Man.
Having that cup on the piano. Although unlike him the cup would be filled with dimes more out of pity instaead of displaying talent.

I don't know if I will find that outlet for my expression that people may flock to, whether it is via the net or live to make much of a living off of.
But the ones that have longevity still have to go through that process.
Maybe there are non-performers that can hit the jackpot with a song.
Well, I could win the powerball too.
Persistant performers have to at least still account for something.

Matt

#1109549 - 06/28/16 11:14 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: R&M]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Jim,

I hope that is not your arbiter of success. You might have a very long wait. Just write great songs with great people and enjoy the ride. The rest can be very superficial and misleading. Never adds up to what you think it does.

Matt (thanks for the name signature)
I never deny that there is always a lottery winner when it comes to music. Yes, people to hit it big from time to time.

But if you do research you find out there is much more to it than just "writing songs." There are thousands of things you have to do behind the scenes that are actually much more important than just writing songs. There is the networking and putting the time in doing what everyone else has to do. That is by being "out there."
The Internet can't do that.

So you have to put TIME in. You have to connect with people who are in the business and doing the things you can't do yourself. If you are not a performer, you are going to have to find one and you have to do that long before they are signed to any record deal. Once they are signed, they are gone. You have no access to them.

You need to be finding the NEXT Billy Joel, who is sitting in that piano bar right now. You need dozens and hundreds of them to even get started.

Writing songs is the easy part. Pretty much anyone can do that. The hard part is the leg work, the contacts, the relationships that you have to build to FACILITATE those relationships.

You CAN do that. You can participate in the process. Artists and other writers are everywhere around you. You can find some on the Internet. But you have to take it past that.

You have to be a P0LITICIAN. "Vote for me. Vote for my songs."

If you don't do that, your competition DOES do that. It can't be done alone. You need allies. You have to physically get INTO the game. If you are not willing to do that, write your songs. Enjoy what you do. Be who YOU are.

But don't expect too much past your own enjoyment or that of your personal friends. And some times that is a pretty cool thing. It has it's own rewards.

MAB

#1109550 - 06/28/16 11:17 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Hey Jim, if you want a really good opportunity to see this first hand, we are having a Music Starts Here New to Nashville networking event at Indo, 632 Fogg St. Nashville, Tn. 37203, this afternoon at 6:00-8:00 pm.

Myself and several industry pros will be giving some presentations on ways to up your level. There are people on Networking, business, record people, publishers, and a LOT of newcomers to Nashville as well as some old hands. It is a great place to get out and actually press the flesh. If you want to be getting cuts on major labels, you need to be meeting the people who will be WITH those major labels in a few years. That's how it starts.

Hope to see you. Like to meet you face to face.

MAB

#1110012 - 07/06/16 02:13 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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The post to where it says the music is lousy is subjective.
Because whatever mass amounts of people might like, just as with films and movies, would not matter since the few percent that can play the game is handpicked.
But that has seemed to make the scene bereft of new ideas.
Notice the remakes of old classic in the cinema?

I read an interesting biography of an actor off of IMDB entertainment. Christopher Walken does not use a cell phone or a computer.
I have seen him in films going back to the TV series 'Kojak' that I have enjoyed, as well as the Bond film 'View To a Kill', even though I am not the fan sort.
But there seems to be something left out with the pre-net days before American Idol and the overnight sensation via the net.
The hard working has to seem to struggle more for some executives idea of bringing it to the masses.

I am not with publishing sites, broadjam and songcast is the closest I have come.
But what do these publishing organizations really offer to aspiring professionals?
Are their ones that are better than others?

#1110019 - 07/06/16 10:36 AM Re: 99 reasons the Industry has problems [Re: R&M]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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"Publishing companies" are the business half of songs. If you are trying to get songs recorded by artists, or have songs in the marketplace, publishing is the conduit you have to have to make connections. You are by definition self published, as publishing is half a song.
But if you are not connected to record labels, artists, or in the circles the industry runs in, you have no ACCESS to the industry. They also have the machine in place to collect money on your song if any is earned.

Until you are somewhat known and have activity, writing songs with established artists, writing in writer's circles, songs that are being recorded, in film, television, motion pictures, etc. you are not going to be allowed into their circles. It is not something you can just join. You have to be invited and they don't accept unsolicited material or artists.

Publishing is another step along the journey, but one that comes later in the game.

The majors of course are going to be better than the rest because they have the political and financial machine to get songs and writers where they need to go. You know most of the names. SONY, WARNERS, EMI, UNIVERSAL, there are really only about four majors left. They are multi-billion dollar conglomerates, that are affiliated with record labels, movie companies, television, etc.

There are also "Co-publishing" ventures,where a smaller company pairs up with the large one. Taylor Swift, for instance has her company "BIG MACHINE" paired with SONY. She is the largest publishing and record entity in Nashville and one of the biggest in the world.

All of this are things about the MUSIC BUSINESS. Just like the article states "music is lousy". The proof in that is lack of sales. People don't respond positively to most music. Music is a very disposable commodity and many companies treat it that way. It takes a lot of money to establish and continue a career. And the audience has to embrace it.

A lot of things involved.

MAB


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