Who's Online Now
18 registered members (Dave Rice, E Swartz, Fdemetrio, Doug Barnett, couchgrouch, Barry David Butler, maccharles, Harriet Ames, Everett Adams, 2 invisible), and 239 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
chazma2
chazma2
ny
Posts: 151
Joined: March 2006
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Are Our Ranks Shrinking?
by Dave Rice. 05/22/18 03:01 PM
Cleaning Day
by Neil Cotton. 05/21/18 09:04 PM
Nonprofit Needs a Song to Record
by Bill Lord. 05/21/18 05:23 PM
Like the Wind
by couchgrouch. 05/21/18 01:00 PM
SUMMER OF 76
by Neil Cotton. 05/21/18 12:40 PM
Cheap Rooms
by fallendiva. 05/21/18 12:32 PM
"That Empathetic Man"
by IronKnee. 05/21/18 10:30 AM
We Can't Do Without Each Other
by IronKnee. 05/21/18 10:27 AM
Sweet Lorelei
by Dave Rice. 05/21/18 08:59 AM
New song, looking for feedback
by Colin Ward. 05/20/18 06:28 PM
Dawn Upon the Distant Waves
by couchgrouch. 05/20/18 05:52 PM
Living
by Irwin. 05/20/18 04:51 PM
Feeling Free
by Neil Cotton. 05/20/18 02:54 PM
Another for your perusal - The Flow
by Travis david. 05/20/18 02:44 PM
Remembering Jake
by Vicarn. 05/20/18 11:42 AM
Serial Winner
by Neil Cotton. 05/20/18 11:15 AM
Worse To Have Loved & Lost?
by Deej56. 05/19/18 10:08 PM
The key
by John Lawrence Schick. 05/19/18 01:33 PM
When Worries Go Haywire
by beechnut79. 05/19/18 11:00 AM
My Only True Love
by beechnut79. 05/19/18 10:07 AM
Why Do I
by Irwin. 05/19/18 09:57 AM
That Song
by the_lyricwriter. 05/19/18 09:06 AM
Upper Big Branch Mining Disaster - WV
by E Swartz. 05/18/18 11:30 PM
My Helen passed on today - My song for her
by Roy Cooper. 05/18/18 10:26 PM
Feeling Free
by Neil Cotton. 05/18/18 11:49 AM
Shadow Self
by beechnut79. 05/18/18 11:26 AM
A Life Fully Lived
by beechnut79. 05/18/18 11:25 AM
Testosterone Is What Makes Men Men
by Barry David Butler. 05/18/18 11:16 AM
A Serial Winner
by Neil Cotton. 05/17/18 11:01 PM
PORTMEIRION. (Mike Zaneski production.Travis song)
by Travis david. 05/17/18 04:52 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,446
Travis david 10,819
Kevin Emmrich 10,537
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,571
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,808
glynda 8,574
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,878
Corey 7,357
couchgrouch 7,292
Dave Rice 6,613
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,432
Joe Wrabek 6,401
ben willis 6,092
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Vicarn 5,618
Linda Sings 5,604
niteshift 5,366
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,615
Blake Hill 4,528
Neil Cotton 4,363
Bob Cushing 4,351
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Cindy Miller 4,178
Tom Shea 4,173
TamsNumber4 4,024
Roy Cooper 3,988
nightengale 3,965
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,776
Dan Sullivan 3,710
MFB III 3,687
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
beechnut79 3,363
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
E Swartz 3,120
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,881
Harriet Ames 2,869
Nigel Quin 2,805
MidniteBob 2,706
Nelson 2,561
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,241
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
Wendy D 2,182
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
floyd jane 1,879
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
maccharles 1,823
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Noel Downs 1,620
Iggy 1,615
Cal 1,574
Rick Heenan 1,573
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,461
Tom Franz 1,452
Ralph Blight 1,440
Chuck Crowe 1,435
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,406
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Janice & Bud 1,385
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
GocartMoz 1,311
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
Ian Ferrin 1,230
PeteG 1,228
Glen King 1,212
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
summeoyo 1,085
Gerry 1,084
joro 1,077
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
lane1777 1,013
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
IronKnee 925
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
90 dB 745
tbryson 737
Andy K 734
Andy Kemp 733
ant 732
Jackie444 722
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
9ne 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Pat Hardy 596
Deej56 589
Shandy 589
Ria 587
Irwin 586
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 565
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
Moosesong 524
Roderic 522
BonzaiWag 513
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
R&M 452
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Alek 352
Z - man 350
John K 348
JamesDF5 347
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
Fdemetrio 298
ed323 297
Ellen M 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
pomeranj 289
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#1084209 - 05/26/15 08:28 PM To label or not to label?  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,210
KimberlyinNC Offline
Top 50 Poster
KimberlyinNC  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,210
North Carolina
For musicians, if a lyric writer gives you a lyric that you agree to put music to and sing, is it offensive for you for them to label the parts of a song for instance and specifically a pre-chorus or a lift?

Being a lyric writer, I just use those terms if I have a lyric where in my head I hear the pre-chorus being repeated before each chorus or a lift...does that make it seem as if I am dictating to the musician what do to? I do not wanna come across in that way.

to label or not label?
Kim


*Always open to collaborations on my lyrics.. with singers and musicians, but PLEASE contact me before putting work into one--in case someone else has it..thanks!!**
BMI Member All Rights Reserved
http://www.littleikepublishing.com
Email for Song Business Only
littleikeproductions@hotmail.com
#1084212 - 05/26/15 09:04 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: KimberlyinNC]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,657
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,657
PA
If I understand what youíre saying Kim, I think the lyricist should label parts of the song, i.e., verse, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, etc. Most the times though, the song form intended by the lyricist is obvious. The working arrangement between a lyricist and a composer should be unrestricted. There have been times when Iíve suggested changes to my lyricist and vice versa.

Best, John smile

#1084214 - 05/26/15 10:11 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: KimberlyinNC]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,694
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,694
California
Hi Kimberly,

John's got it right, there.

I have some clients who label and some who don't, and I am just happy to have their business, taking offense at that was not something even on the plate. I assume they're just being as helpful as possible.

Same thing with collabs, even if it's obvious what parts are what, I know the lyricist is just being helpful.

The most important reason to label, imo..You want the singer or composer to treat your various sections like you specify-- otherwise that seems to encroach on your "intention." You want the composer or singer to understand how you hear these song parts, and if he/she wants to turn a lift into a bridge or a chorus into a verse--hopefully that mean a discussion--a dialogue between the two!

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/26/15 10:19 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1084232 - 05/27/15 11:35 AM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,613
Dave Rice Online content
Top 40 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,613
Texas
Hi Kim:

I think a lot depends upon the relationship you have with the lyricist. I don't bother labeling the chorus, pre-choruses or verses. I do make note of the areas where I want a musical break to happen. (Since I normally do the whole thing myself, it does not matter except when an artist, producer or publisher wants the lyrics.)

Years ago, at an NSAI conference, we were told that the person evaluating the song did not want or need these inferences. They even told us to eliminate the date the song was written in order to not "date" the lyric... as if that mattered... LOL! A good lyric will always stand the test of time, no matter when it was created. Why hide it?

All the best,

Dave

#1084236 - 05/27/15 12:01 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,962
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,962
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Many times I will just write where the break is and repeat is if that is how the song goes. There is nothing wrong with such notes. If you are putting music to a lyric many times some re-writes are required to make the song work.

Classical Composers in the past had to put many directions on the composition so a conductor could understand what the composer was trying to convey as there were no demo tapes to be had.


Ray E. Strode
#1084280 - 05/27/15 07:28 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,191
Michael LeBlanc Offline
Top 10 Poster
Michael LeBlanc  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,191
Louisiana
with collaborating,i think it's okay to just for the heck of it.But most musicians should figure it out unless it's some prog stuff or crazy stuff like Zappa would do,then i don't know what you'd label that at anyway.Mike

#1084282 - 05/27/15 07:44 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 6,092
ben willis Offline
Top 40 Poster
ben willis  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 6,092
Ft. Myers, FL. USA
I don't think Zappa ever collaborated with his own music, but when he was doing live shows with "Flo And Eddie" it looks like he just let them go with their routine and stood back and conducted the band. So there was somewhat of a collaboration in the show itself.

#1084285 - 05/27/15 09:30 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: ben willis]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,878
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 25 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,878
Saint Petersburg. FL
I have written music for a number of people over the last few years and frankly, the more information they give me about their lyrics, the more I like it. I don't know how someone could write lyrics if they didn't know which bit was going to be a repeating chorus or a verse with new information, etc. Naturally, that could change as the song developed, but initially, someone has to make those decisions and get it started. I also find it helpful when the lyricist makes a rough recording of it so I know the rhythm and the phrasing that he/she had in mind. Again, that can change, but it's easy to see a page of lyrics and have no clue how the lyricist planned the song to go. More information is better!!


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1084287 - 05/27/15 10:54 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: KimberlyinNC]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,130
Barry David Butler Online content
Top 100 Poster
Barry David Butler  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,130
Sebring, Florida USA
I just want the lyric and HOPE it's in the correct form and rhyme scheme....Let me do it.

#1084463 - 05/29/15 04:10 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: Barry David Butler]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,776
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,776
Denmark
Not at all offensive to mark the sections in your lyric. It can provide a helpful map for the melody writer.

In fact, all your words, phrases and couplets already contain a melody map as well (in the natural way they are spoken).

So, just carve it out any way you can :-)


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/buzztracks
#1084470 - 05/29/15 04:43 PM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,210
KimberlyinNC Offline
Top 50 Poster
KimberlyinNC  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,210
North Carolina
Thanks so much everyone for your comments on this, they have been so very helpful

Kim


*Always open to collaborations on my lyrics.. with singers and musicians, but PLEASE contact me before putting work into one--in case someone else has it..thanks!!**
BMI Member All Rights Reserved
http://www.littleikepublishing.com
Email for Song Business Only
littleikeproductions@hotmail.com
#1100877 - 02/23/16 06:47 AM Re: To label or not to label? [Re: KimberlyinNC]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 596
Pat Hardy Offline
Top 500 Poster
Pat Hardy  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by KimberlyinNC
For musicians, if a lyric writer gives you a lyric that you agree to put music to and sing, is it offensive for you for them to label the parts of a song for instance and specifically a pre-chorus or a lift?

Being a lyric writer, I just use those terms if I have a lyric where in my head I hear the pre-chorus being repeated before each chorus or a lift...does that make it seem as if I am dictating to the musician what do to? I do not wanna come across in that way.

to label or not label?
Kim



When I submit lyrics to a publisher, for example, I never label the sections ( though I see a lot of lyricists that do ).
Why bother? The listener/auditioner doesn't need it, and it clutters up the page, diminishes the flow of the lyric if the listener is reading along with the song being played. It would be like painting a beautiful painting, then labeling the sections of the painting for the viewer. Wouldn't that be silly? I know that's not a perfect comparison, but the essence is the same.





Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
Ijyae259, stikmstr, plcorange, burningman, erictrent2147
21032 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics117,957
Posts1,111,373
Members21,032
Average Posts Daily30
Most Online1,506
Mar 16th, 2017
Just Plain Quotes
"Our enemies may not be who we think they are. They are not Major Label monopolies. The world will always have 'majors.' They are not big corporations who own everything. The world will always have 'big' ones. Our enemies are not the loud mouthed critics telling us we will fail. The world will always have those too. Our most dangerous enemy is our own quiet acceptance of the fate we perceive these entities have mapped out for us. The only danger is our own complacency, or inactivity, and our willingness to believe so called experts who tell us we 'can't' and that our grim fate is inevitable." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
Grange Fife (51)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0