Who's Online Now
5 members (couchgrouch, rpirone, Guy E. Trepanier, Gavin Sinclair, 1 invisible), 928 guests, and 249 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Fox News Reports Stunning Archeological Discovery.
by couchgrouch - 03/27/24 08:02 PM
Wasting My Time
by David Gill - 03/27/24 07:42 AM
Can you save me from me
by David Gill - 03/26/24 07:16 PM
Song available
by JAPOV - 03/26/24 03:38 PM
YELLIN AT CLOUDS
by David Gill - 03/26/24 03:20 PM
"Reliving" the great Lou Rawls!
by Brian Austin Whitney - 03/26/24 01:49 PM
::: The Best In My Life :::
by Bill Draper - 03/26/24 01:32 PM
The show must go on
by ckiphen - 03/26/24 09:06 AM
NYC Motel 1972
by rpirone - 03/26/24 12:43 AM
usic Industry Summitt
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 11:32 PM
The Rant Arena
by JAPOV - 03/25/24 07:39 PM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Lancaster Festival, Lancaster, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 10:51 AM
Wasting my time
by Rob B. - 03/25/24 03:45 AM
Tom Waits.. What's he building
by Fdemetrio - 03/25/24 12:09 AM
Rick Beato, bad lyrics
by Fdemetrio - 03/24/24 11:23 PM
Inspirational Videos Post Them Here
by Sunset Poet - 03/24/24 11:27 AM
Used to take a Genius to Mix
by Fdemetrio - 03/23/24 11:00 AM
"Broken Places"
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/22/24 07:45 PM
All You Are Is A Lie
by Sunset Poet - 03/22/24 06:55 PM
Pour Choices
by Gavin Sinclair - 03/22/24 05:29 PM
Billy's 30 year overdue song.
by Fdemetrio - 03/22/24 01:30 PM
Make my dreams come true
by ckiphen - 03/22/24 10:51 AM
Stuck Here At The Light
by David Gill - 03/21/24 10:40 AM
Because Easter bunny...
by David Gill - 03/21/24 09:44 AM
"I Miss You, Baby"
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/21/24 08:39 AM
"I Miss You, Baby"
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/21/24 08:39 AM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,857
Travis david 12,264
Kevin Emmrich 10,941
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 9,003
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,160
Colin Ward 7,911
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,916
Mark Kaufman 6,589
ben willis 6,114
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Fdemetrio 4,989
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,670
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,271
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,171
MFB III 4,143
Sunset Poet 4,125
nightengale 4,096
E Swartz 3,985
JAPOV 3,973
beechnut79 3,878
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,845
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Nigel Quin 2,891
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Wendy D 2,235
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
maccharles 2,134
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
DukeWill 2,002
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,481
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Deej56 1,385
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
lane1777 1,280
Gerry 1,280
DakLander 1,265
IronKnee 1,262
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
VNORTH2 1,210
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,162
ckiphen 1,118
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
9ne 1,035
David Gill 1,031
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
bennash 763
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 749
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
Irwin 720
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Pat Hardy 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
R&M 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 590
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Alek 386
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
ddreuter 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Rob B. 364
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 86
VNORTH2 45
bennash 38
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
OP Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
The Copyright Term Extension Act (CTEA) of 1998 extended copyright terms in the United States. Since the Copyright Act of 1976, copyright would last for the life of the author plus 50 years, or 75 years for a work of corporate authorship. The 1976 Act also increased the extension term for works copyrighted before 1978 that had not already entered the public domain from twenty-eight years to forty-seven years, giving a total term of seventy-five years. The 1998 Act extended these terms to life of the author plus 70 years and for works of corporate authorship to 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever endpoint is earlier.[1] Copyright protection for works published prior to January 1, 1978, was increased by 20 years to a total of 95 years from their publication date.

So it all depends on date of publication and whether it's corporate ownership or not. So I'm still not sure if "The Way You Look Tonight" is Public Domain. Jerome Kern died Nov. 11th, 1945. Which would adhere to the “Life plus 70 years” rule. However now I have to figure out if it was corporate owned (like Warner's with Happy Birthday) and also when and whom published it. You would think with the amount of fees the Copyright Office collects for registering songs; they would be obligated to include a public domain list on their website. From what I was told by one of my publishers, the only way one can be sure of PD status is through the Copyright Office. I checked with them a few years back on a song, and they told me it would cost $300 for them to check it out.

All this being said; I have noticed versions of “The Way You Look Tonight” on music library websites. Maybe I should just let it go…

John smile

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
I re-reviewed the CD I have by Jerome Kern. The song was released in the Movie SWING TIME in 1936 with Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. According to Wikipedia a Dorothy Fields wrote the lyrics to the song. According to the Copyright Web Site songs before 1978 were archived in paper files. One other Avenue you can pursue is fill out the form on the Harry Fox Agency for a Mechanical License to see if they have it. If they don't have it I suppose they will tell you. Good luck!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 11/14/15 01:14 AM.

Ray E. Strode
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,911
Likes: 1
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,911
Likes: 1
His co-writer on the song didn't die until 1974 (Dorothy Fields).


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
OP Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Hmm... I didn't consider the co-writer Colin. ASCAP lists Aldi Music Co and Universal Polygram as the publishers. I could check with them. My publisher told me that the Harry Fox Agency couldn't help me with the PD status of music. I did send an email to them. I didn't receive a reply.

John smile

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 18
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 18
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Hmm... I didn't consider the co-writer Colin. ASCAP lists Aldi Music Co and Universal Polygram as the publishers. I could check with them. My publisher told me that the Harry Fox Agency couldn't help me with the PD status of music. I did send an email to them. I didn't receive a reply.

John smile


Hi John,

The Way You Look Tonight was published in 1936. According to this chart ( https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm ), if renewals were made, then it's not public domain until 2031, 95 years after first publication date. If renewals were NOT made, it's already public domain.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 11/14/15 08:14 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
OP Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Thanks Mike. It probably was renewed. These publishers cover the bases when it comes down to money. Copyright Office would know, but the info ain't free unless one physically goes to the office and finds it themselves.

Best, John smile

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 18
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 18

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 11/14/15 08:21 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Under Copyright Law you can only Register a song once. You could Register a song for a 28 year period and re-register it once more for a length of 56 years. Then it goes into Public Domain. Since the song in question was probably registered in 1936 and was renewed once the copyright would run out in 1992. This is before the Registration period was changed to Life plus 70 years of the author or last surviving author if more than one.

One more non-expensive thing you could try is go to a music store and see if you can buy the sheet music. Copyright owner and date would be on the sheet music if there is still one. Good luck!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 11/15/15 02:44 PM.

Ray E. Strode
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
OP Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Thanks Ray! It's still registered by Universal with ASCAP. I wonder if ASCAP deletes PD tracks from their registrar. Think I'll also inquire about its status with ASCAP.

John smile

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
I've written over 1000, and none are copyrighted.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 614
R&M Offline
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 614
What would be the difference with copyrighting online compared to having it by snail mail?

I also heard of a notre republic from a bank. If I have the name correct.
Maybe copyrighting and publishing have more to do with how much information is lead back to the originator.
I know people that want to copyright inventions instead of songs.

All this information and if it becomes profitable, a lawyer to hold it in place.
But I know that would be too simple.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Registering a Copyright Online or by a Paper Form is no different except the Online way is less expensive. Someone that is doing a lot of Registrations may set up to do the online registration.

I just Registered a Book by paper and it now costs 85 dollars.You of course can Register any number of songs at the same time on a single form. The Advantage of doing a Registration is if you have a problem sometime in the Future you have a date certain as your proof to the work.


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
OP Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Yes, as Ray said, makes no difference in registering online or off. As long as it's registered with the US Copyright Office. That's the only valid copyright registration.

John smile

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
John L., you sure know how to stir things up... and you are so right. Copyright is a topic as well as a target... and the U.S. Copyright Law(s) are being assailed on a broad front by those who would squeeze the meager potential profit of humble songwriters even further.

Your idea of doing your own version of an "Old Standard" is a great approach and if it is still covered by a formal copyright... you can "cover" it as long as you take care of the royalties involved. Like you, I doubt if "The Way You Look Tonight" has found it's way into the realm of "Public Domain."

Jim's point about writing so many songs without formally copyrighting is disputed by many writers regarding copyright law and most of them state that "The moment the lyric is put to paper" or the "song is recorded"... it is, in fact, copyrighted.

Real protection in the United States is only afforded by application for a Statutory Copyright with the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress... and even that will depend on the outcome of a legal challenge... and the strength of your Copyright Attorney in winning your case. Having a Statutory Copyright is certainly stronger (and more expensive) than a de-facto or unpublished copyright. Either "method" must endure and survive a legal challenge in a court of law.

The problem is proving the actual date it became such property in the case of "The de-facto Copyright." This leads to the age-old argument of mailing a lyric, melody or song to one's self and not opening the envelope. This has been proved to be invalid on many instances, I am informed.

Baskerville's "Music Business Handbook" indicates that there are no statutes in place anywhere to guarantee world-wide protection of a copyright. Only the country of origin and the binding agreements between consenting nations are able to provide a modicum of protection.

Although I agree that Copyright Law needs to be streamlined and revised to provide clarity and protection of the Copyright Owner, I'm not at all sure our Senators or Congressmen are capable of hammering out a document that will not unbalance the scales in favor of the Big Guys versus the lowly Creator of the work.

As always, my caveat is to advise that I am not a qualified Music or Copyright Attorney.

Finally, the Copyright Process here in the U.S. is much too expensive and complex. Having said that, I have never tried the "on-line" process Ray mentioned.

Happy New Year! ----Dave

Last edited by Dave Rice; 01/01/16 11:16 PM.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
OP Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
"Your idea of doing your own version of an "Old Standard" is a great approach and if it is still covered by a formal copyright... you can "cover" it as long as you take care of the royalties involved. Like you, I doubt if "The Way You Look Tonight" has found it's way into the realm of "Public Domain." - Dave

I was told by my publisher it wouldn't be cost effective going this route (for TV use).

You raise some interesting ideas Dave. I've been told to get a copyright infringement case in court (in USA); one must supply a Library of Congress copyright (the only one accepted). After that you're allowed to add any further evidence.

It's funny, being in this music business so long, there's still no absolute when it comes to copyright info. Case in point; the "Happy Birthday to You" fiasco.

Best, John smile


Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Amen, Brother! The Copyright Office still owes me one. They lost it or failed to complete their assigned task several years ago when the 9-11 crisis started all the security measures. They never even bothered to answer my inquiry... but they sure cashed my check. What else is new? LOL!

Later, ----Dave

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
OP Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Amen, Brother! The Copyright Office still owes me one. They lost it or failed to complete their assigned task several years ago when the 9-11 crisis started all the security measures. They never even bothered to answer my inquiry... but they sure cashed my check. What else is new? LOL!

Later, ----Dave


A real bummer Dave. Maybe now that the dust has settled The Copyright Office will clear this up.

John smile

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
John:

I promise not to "hold my breath" awaiting action by these overpaid bureaucrats. LOL!

----Dave

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
K
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
K
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Yeah, copyrights takes quite a while to get. Furthermore, there are very few lawyers who specialize in this area as well.

The basic rule is that copyrights in the US reverts to a company if the writer dies and it was written in commission, and in Europe the copyright reverts to the writer's family, because you cannot do work-for-hire here (there are very few amendments to the copyright law (as stated in The Berne convention) in Europe, like in the US). My source for that is a danish phd report.

The basic distictions to make is that copyright is different from registration of a copyright. What you get at the copyright office is a registration, which makes it easier to handle a dispute in court. You already have your work copyrighted by default, if you wrote it.

The other distiction is that a copyright is different from a sound recording. The copyright covers music and lyrics and is represented with a (c), and the sound recording (of that copyright) is represented with a (p).

You can register both a copyright (c) and a sound recording (p) with the copyright office. Copyrights are for original and derivative works, and so is sound recordings, but also includes covers of PD songs and new arrangements (derivative arrangements).

I tried helping out with a search, but I couldn't find anything on the copyright.gov site, like I used to could. They seem to have changed it after the criticism in the fall https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...2-5261-11e5-9812-92d5948a40f8_story.html

Reportedly the copyright office had computers from the 90'ies that couldn't handle the data load, so I sure hope they get the systems back up and running smoothly soon.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 614
R&M Offline
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 614
It seems to follow the same confusion with making out a will.
What is going to be finite with copyright laws that will not be disputed?
It is like tax laws to where only attorneys can figure it out.
Does having as many sources leading to that individual matter or who has the better syllabus with all the "legal" meanings?


Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
chriscastle, yasir252, cathennashira, Samwise, HappySousa
21,470 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums117
Topics125,714
Posts1,160,942
Members21,470
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5