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#1093197 - 10/03/15 01:28 AM Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards"  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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This is something that has been happening all too much over the past few years. It is the preponderance of people, particularly rappers, who simply sample existing songs and put their own lyrics on them. (If that is what you want to call them). They don't respect intellectual property in the least and think that anything is interactive playthings.

This article is about the Eagles Don Henley and a rapper named Frank Ocean, who simply took the existing music tracks, guitars, bass, drums, everything, on the song HOTEL CALIFORNIA, and put his own rap lyrics to it. Then got pissed off when they told him that he couldn't do that. Basically told them to go "S***W themselves.

We are seeing this more and more with younger artists and writers, who simply don't even see anything wrong with doing whatever they want to with music. I recently had a several post argument on another site, about just "taking existing songs and putting his lyrics to them." He could not see any problem whatsoever with it.

When people are so concerned with copyrights, especially on songs that usually go NOWHERE, this is something they need to be concerned with. Not that someone is going to steal their idea. That someone is going to take their TRACKS, their creative work, their intellectual property, and just use it for their own uses. If you go to YOU TUBE you will see hundreds of thousands of people using their own slideshows, videos, etc, and using hit songs for their own use with no licencing, no thought to anything other than what they want to use it for.

Just another fact in the "free music" era we are living in. People stopped respecting anything a long time ago. Why I have said so many times, not to get too concerned about making any money at this. Not only can you no longer make money, you might just find that once you put something "out there" you may not even own it any more.

The story:
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/10/02/don-henley-calls-frank-ocean-a-talentless-little-prick-kanye/21244024/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D1686540443

MAB

#1093242 - 10/03/15 10:37 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc:

We are certainly on the same page on this thread. I don't understand why RIAA is not "all over" folks who "sample." To me, it is simply another word for "stealing."

I suppose the idea regarding "free music" came about during the "radio era" when one could listen to music for free by turning on the radio... if you didn't mind listening to some of the corniest commercials ever created.

People would hear a song and, if they liked it, would sometimes buy a single or an album, depending on how much "spare change" was available in one's house-hold. Most of the Rich Kids had 45's or LP's but a significant number of my high school friends only heard songs on the radio, me included... until I saved enough money to buy a record player. Even then my collection was small but I understood that music was not really "free."

The digital era made it so easy for kids to illegally download and by the time "measures were taken" to prevent it... or suppress it, the horse was out of the barn.

You are 100% correct about making money. I watched an interview today on some obscure channel where the co-founder of Pandora was being interviewed. He was proud of the fact that half their income is "doled out" to artists and then songwriters. I never heard the percentages but I believe the artist receives a much larger slice of the pie. If it really is a larger slice for the artist, that is a sad statement about how "streaming" should be straightened out. Songwriters always seem to be at the bottom rung of the pyramid... and I resent the absolute hell out of it.

Last edited by Dave Rice; 10/03/15 10:39 PM.
#1093243 - 10/03/15 11:14 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Should I shoot myself NOW or Later Marc.....lol
That's why even at my age I thank God everyday for the Gift of being able to write melodies, words, plan AND sing.....I love this ability and Still enjoy writing songs. I have a new one called BEING DIFFERENT IS BEAUTIFUL with a cool video and getting lots of feedback.

But we live in the Dark Days of the Bizz but eventually it will change....but I'll be playing in my new band. The Angels All Stars....lol Just plugging along doing the best I can....

#1093244 - 10/03/15 11:14 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Should I shoot myself NOW or Later Marc.....lol
That's why even at my age I thank God everyday for the Gift of being able to write melodies, words, plan AND sing.....I love this ability and Still enjoy writing songs. I have a new one called BEING DIFFERENT IS BEAUTIFUL with a cool video and getting lots of feedback.

But we live in the Dark Days of the Bizz but eventually it will change....but I'll be playing in my new band. The Angels All Stars....lol Just plugging along doing the best I can....

#1093247 - 10/04/15 02:51 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Dave,

One of the misnomers about all of this is the servers, the people like PANDORA, and SPOTIFY, talking about the billions they are doling out. But there are no songwriters or artists getting much of it. It is the running joke in Nashville how every publisher, major, independent, etc. all have these framed checks for .000022 cents. I keep hearing a lot of people talking about all the money they are making from streaming, but there is not one major writer that I know of that are satisfied.

When downloading began in the 90's, mostly from the college bands, most notably the SEATTLE GRUNGE rockers like NIRVANA. had no radio format. So they began to give music away in order to get people into their shows and to buy merchandise. As it spread, people like SHAWN FANNING of NAPSTER, perfected ways for college kids to openly download songs for free. Later would come file sharing, and then open theft. The powers that be have tried to retaliate, by lawsuits, Cease and desist orders, and groups like Metallica, and others getting a bad rap in the press for trying to enforce any kind of laws. Of course it is big news when some big bad evil rich rock stars suing some 13 year old girl for downloading. Of course they don't get too upset when they find out she downloaded 10,000 songs.
Cause of course, all us writers and artists are SOOO RICH!

So the battle has been joined, the "We want what we want and we want it right now" entitlement mentality, against trying to have some sort of compensation for what we do. The battle will never end. There are always going to be people who want what they want and will find ways to get it for free.

They keep trying things like "subscription services" where you get unlimited downloading for $10. a month. Of course, in the real world, that would cover ten songs. Oh well.

The encroaching result would be this,the 'sampling." And that is what brings us to this article. There are many, many people, writers and artists, who find NOTHING wrong with just taking an existing song and writing their own lyrics to it. They can't figure out why anyone would have a problem with that.

Which is why we have people like this guy Frank Ocean. He feels "nobody made any money off it", which is nonsense, because about 800,000 people downloaded his version of this song, which led to higher concert tickets, merchandise, etc. I'm sure he made a fortune on hats, t-shirts, jewelry, because it is the ANCILARY BENEFITS of songs that we see now. Branding, etc. are where the actual money is. Whatever brings people to your brand, is just a means to justify the ends. And what brought this entire article about.

It is the reason that everytime I see threads about "How do I copyright this? "How do I protect myself.." "What film and television library.." "Has anyone ever heard of?..." threads. Because now it is no longer and issue of protecting yourself from someone "stealing your idea." They are now ready to take your idea, your tracks, anything you have spent time, money, intellectual time to create. There is a mentality that says you don't own any of it any more.

Sad state of affairs, but it is what it is.

MAB


#1093254 - 10/04/15 12:39 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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When were the Eagles Popular? Seems it was in the 80's maybe over 30 years ago. Did the Eagles copyright their material? This will remind everyone to always keep good records and register their copyrights as something could come up many years later and getting the facts together may be impossible. The old saying, An Oz. of prevention is worth a pound of Cure still applies.


Ray E. Strode
#1093255 - 10/04/15 12:59 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Kind of Ray. Hotel California sold around 28 million records. It is third or fourth on the biggest selling list. So yes, there is more than enough copyrights. The point is that in the eyes of more and more COPYRIGHTS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING ANYMORE. People simply take what they want and you have to sue to stop them.

Oh yeah, and they are still on the top ten touring acts in the world. Made something like $300 million dollars last year. Doesn't matter how much money you have.

MAB

#1093256 - 10/04/15 01:02 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Sorry. I was wrong. Hotel California is 15th on the Best selling albums list. With only 30 Million in sales.
Their "Greatest Hits" is at number 6 with 38 million in sales.

Since the 70's when they were popular, they still sell around 20,000 a week I believe.

Sorry for the misleading numbers.

MAB

#1093257 - 10/04/15 01:11 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Humm,
It is true you have to get a court Judgement if you want to settle a problem. There was a story of the Beatles suing their Record Label for unpaid royalties a while back. Never heard of the outcome. If the Eagles are taking in that amount of money they shouldn't even worry about a small thing as maybe someone helping there self to some copyright violation of their material. But if they are inclined to do so, there is always the courts, assuming it is worth it. I'm sure there will be more lawsuits about some Artist getting screwed by their label. You have to take care of business or it will "Take" care of you! It is a Do it yourself world, because if you don't do it, don't expect any one else to do it or you!


Ray E. Strode
#1093262 - 10/04/15 02:57 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Ray, did you read ANY of this article? it is something that is happening across the board in all of Entertainment. Sure you can use the courts, but usually that is a nice 8-10 year wait. Was 13 years for the "George Harrison/He's so fine/My Sweet Lord" case to be settled. An average is about 8 years.

Has NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY. It is about the ownership of intellectual property, and is all part of a much larger discussion. It leads into things like IDENTITY THEFT, hacking by foreign governments, there are a LOT of issues interelated here. Courts are only one part of it. There is an ongoing debate worldwide to even if copyrights are going to be allowed. There are governments, like Sweden, who are advocating for the end of all copyrights, patents, any creative endeavors whatsoever.

This is one on sampling and taking existing music from ANYBODY, the Eagles just bring it to the forefront. And that exact attitude "With that much money' is part of the reason no one is making money on music any more. Because for 20 years, people have put NO MONETARY VALUE on music at all. That is where the money went and what Henley calls the attitude of "Interactive playthings." It is another part of the "entitlement generation."

That is what is at stake. Of course the courts are an option, but that takes decades.

My entire point is that money in music,for the most part is GONE. And this is just one more part of it. When looking at all discussions on the subject of music, marketing, living in the current world (that is NOT going backward) these are things writers need to be aware of.

MAB

#1093265 - 10/04/15 04:20 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well,
You still have to take it to court. I once suggested those that were stealing music by downloading it should be taken to the nearest tree and hung but was blasted for it. A story about Charlie Daniels being sued for stealing somebody's song cost him 50 thousand dollars to defend himself as he didn't take that person's song. And a lot of people won't take outside songs for fear of being sued. It has a ring of Ambulance Chasers to it. I still like hanging best. Cuts out the middle man.

It was Napster I think that thought they could buy one copy of a recording and sell copies of it until the cows come home and pay no one for it. Yes, hanging is the best cure.


Ray E. Strode
#1093266 - 10/04/15 04:24 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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The lawsuits run the other way to. One of the main reasons you will never get songs heard by anyone that doesn't know you now. Every major writer and artist has been sued over the past few years. It is absolutely ambulance chasers. Because no one HEARS their songs. but they can sue a ham sandwich and everyone has to defend themselves.

When I do an NSAI workshop, I have to buy LIABILITY INSURANCE that protects me from being sued. No one even listens anymore to avoid any chance of lawsuits. And believe me, there are NOT MUCH WORTH STEALING EITHER.

M

#1093267 - 10/04/15 04:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael LeBlanc Online content
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i'm guessing it works the same way if it were turned around and someone took your lyric or poem and put it to music without your consent,or not?

#1093277 - 10/04/15 08:58 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Micheal,

That's what I am talking about. This is something that really sticks in my craw. Imagine someone taking a song of yours and writing lyrics that are really offensive to you. Something that glorified Hitler or very anti your political or moral views, say something very anti religious on one of Everett's songs.

And it gets out, becomes some big You Tube anthem, with a video that is very offensive. Then Everett becomes known for that song and even gets threats, lawsuits, all kinds of quite dangerous things, I don't have to tell you how weird society has gotten.
Even if they were forced to take it down, (after enough time to have it downloaded all over the place) that is still going to be out there and his reputation has been damaged.

Over the years, the Rap community has done just that. Taken existing TRACKS, not just the idea or re-doing the music, but the actual tracks that were recorded, and record over it.

This happened to two friends of mine. They had a cut back in the 70's on a popular Soul artist. A couple of decades later, their daughter heard that song on the radio with ALL NEW rap lyrics put over the music they had written. She called to ask them if they had licenced that song and they had not. They found out it was the artist Snoop Dog, who had taken that song, A Bobby Womack song from the 70's, and put his own lyrics (I use that term loosely) on their song. And it was very offensive to them.

It took them years to actually get him to pay them anything and when he finally did, most of what they made was eaten up by legal fees.

The entire point is that taking other people's creative work without their permission is totally wrong, and sometimes even giving permission is not a good idea.

MAB

#1093282 - 10/04/15 09:55 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Hey Marc.....any ideas as to HOW this changes or what anybody can do. I hate just seeing this and taking it up the yazoo.
There has to be some Justice Somewhere.

#1093287 - 10/04/15 10:24 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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i'm done writing parodies,seems to be about the same thing.I've taken what parodies i've written and deleted them.No worries,i made no money on them anyway.Mike

#1093295 - 10/04/15 11:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Nashville, Tn.
Barry, I don't really see much that can be done. I feel it is coming and going to be more. Of course, I am believing that copyrights and all protection are going to be things of the past. The ability to protect anything in a "take it wherever you want" era is just not workable. The same that keeps happening every few months or whatever. There is always a "This is going to be the thing that turns it all around", people keep trying and I wish them well. But once things were made FREE with unlimited access there was not a lot that could be done.

As always there will be the large mega companies that can have enough legal muscle to do something. Smaller companies and individuals (and you are talking about an entire business that is comprised of individuals) will not. The ability to get music OUT THERE, came with a very large price. EVERYONE BEING ABLE TO GET THEIR MUSIC OUT THERE. When you make something open and accessable to everyone, and overwhelm the supply, there is no ability to demand anything for it.

Right now, California is in a drought with no water anywhere. They are fighting for it. But if suddenly it rained every day and every where, all the reservoirs filled up and overfilled, the cost would come down and people would not have to pay as much for it.

With music the platform everyone has to have is the Internet. With billions of communications and particularly songs a day, there is no physical way to police all this stuff. There is no way to really legislate it. We have to take the good with the bad. And unfortunately, when it comes to the modern music era, there is a lot of bad.

But there is good too. I don't ever want people to forget that. I try to point out to people like Ray, that there are still people he would like out there. There is some great music being made. there are new breakthrough artists all the time coming up. There are interesting things going on. Just a lot of the time we have to look for it. We can have forums and share information. So we are not all going to be rich rock stars. Is that what everyone wanted to do this for?

There are a lot of elements to what Brian preaches all the time. Finding ways to distribute our music, finding out own audiences. There is always hope for people who are creative and inventive. Always will be. Just might not be in the forms we have become familiar with in the past.

Micheal, I am with you on the parodies. I quit doing them a while ago. I used to do a lot of comedy and they were mainly for that. And every rare once in a while I might come out with a routine I used to do for some private people. But most of those are more voice parodies than anything else. I do a reasonably good Joe Cocker, Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, Micheal McDonald, and a few other choice selections. But as far as making up words on other people's songs. Nah, I'm pretty much done with that.

Oh well, Don't let it all get you too far down. Tomorrow will be another day, we'll all write some songs, we'll keep on going on. Hopefully, someone will come up with another thread and we can replace this one.

Hmmmm. How's that Ray Bob?

MAB



#1093298 - 10/04/15 11:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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So what do i say Marc?

Anyone that has to use someone else's music to be successful has no talent to speak of and will fail enventually. And it may be more expensive for them to do. Taking too many shortcuts may result in no monitary gain to speak of.

Dang. Out in the Old West they hung a horse thief. Saw on the news tonight where a facility in Missouri is manufacturing Cassette Tapes to beat the band. Some things you can't keep down. Music Thieves, Tape Cassettes, and Horse Thieves!


Ray E. Strode
#1093300 - 10/05/15 01:18 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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MidniteBob Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
The floodgates opened and the dam broke a decade or so ago.

Neither of the, ahem, "artists", involved with this are anyone I would want to share a beer with.

One is an old-fart dick-weed, and the other is a young fart dick-weed in the making...And eventually they will all be paying their lawyers to say "Hey, keep off my lawn!!!"

As long as they have the money to keep paying their lawyers, then I say have at it....But I have no sympathy for either party...

Perhaps, if Don Henley was someone I actually respected, my response would be different, but he is a well-documented dick-weed....

I know that there's a bigger picture to consider, but it needs a better spokesperson....

"The times, they are a changin'"

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1093317 - 10/05/15 10:47 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Vengeance is mine say it the Lord.

#1093345 - 10/05/15 07:26 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Our legal system is broken and will remain so as long as we keep electing lawyers to every political office. No lawyer is going to vote to stop the proliferation of lawsuits because they get rich from them. This is one of many examples of a legal system that will do nothing useful about it in our lifetimes. Elect businessmen, engineers, doctors, teachers, and maybe things will change but lawyers control the parties so that ain't happening either unless a Trump can get himself elected simply by being a billionaire.

Perhaps someone in the Copyright office can be cajoled into stopping their paper pushing long enough to take some action on this subject.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1093354 - 10/05/15 10:00 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Bob, henley's personality or whether you want to have a beer with him are irrelevant to the issue stated in Marc's post. In fact, I'm surprised that on a songwriter's site, this isn't easily understood. Maybe I'm not surprised. Don Henley co-wrote one of the best written, enduring songs in rock's history. Then sang and played on the recording. He partially owns that intellectual property and doesn't want some clown who can't write, sing or play squatting on his musical ranch. Do you realize the level of talent and skill required to write, compose and perform Hotel California? It's very, very high and is possessed by very few. I hate to say it, but just read a few lyrics here for confirmation.

It's an important issue for writers and artists in an era when any shmuck with some samples and a rhyming dictionary can call himself an "artist". I mean c'mon...does anyone think Kanye West is a musical genius? I've seen him called that by mainstream magazines. He has no discernible talent. Should he be able to sample old Gamble and Huff hooks without their permission? No. Whether I wanna share a brew or a bowl of beer nuts with any of them matters not.

I've been ripped off and I don't f€cling like it. No reason Henley should, either.

#1093355 - 10/05/15 10:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Extrodinarily well put Mr. Couch Grouch. Well done, well said. Exactly so.

MAB

#1093356 - 10/05/15 10:41 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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MidniteBob Offline
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MidniteBob  Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Extrodinarily well put Mr. Couch Grouch. Well done, well said. Exactly so.

MAB


Extremely well put Mr. Couch. Grouch!....

"Oh, Mr. Robert(s)"...

I only responded to see if I could antagonize you & Mr. Marc to agree on something:-)...

And what I said about Mr. Henley was taken from another post about by BAW & his interaction with him....

My mission in this thread is accomplished...

Carry on...Sincerely!!!!....Keep the "reality" of the "biz" flowing!!!

Midnite

P.S...Couch? I've been following you since around 2001. Well done Sir!!!!

P.P.S...My friends call me Midnite...No one really calls me Bob anymore...Long story...:-)


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1093365 - 10/06/15 12:03 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Yes Mr. Midnight,

I do sense some cooling trends in the lower infernal regions. As I agree with not only one but TWO of Mr. Grouch's opinions. (The other being Mr. West's obvious lack of talent. A lot of "The Emperor has no clothes, that people have been taken in by.)
When someone is correct, no matter, who it is, that should be pointed out. Congratulations Sir Grouch.

Now here is the "other shoe" to drop. I always "reverse the situation." And if Mr. Henley had taken Mr. West's alleged songs and written his own lyrics in the same manner, it would STILL BE WRONG. Aside from laughing my butt off at the Irony of Karma, I would still be against it for Mr. West's rights. It's all just a WRONG thing. Period.

On your opinions of Henely, I do share some of them, although I do have to give credit for a very talented person where it is due. His songs have had a substantial effect on me. But if I disliked everyone for their personal behavior and attitudes, I probably would hate pretty much every actor, and many many singers out there. Would be a pretty small list that I could stomach.

Enough on this subject for me.

MAB


#1093394 - 10/06/15 07:51 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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It's a case of borrowed feathers, where new kids on the block try to tap into well known successes in order to be associated with it.

If that was just a free ride, recorded music, and any other type of ownership rights, would be gone.

.. allthough recorded music is barely breathing anymore.


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/buzztracks
#1093412 - 10/06/15 11:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Hi Marc,

I kind of agree with what you are saying, but find that you say it in a rather hyperbolic way. I mean "people stopped respecting anything a long time ago.." ..?

You say "They don't respect intellectual property in the least and think that anything is interactive playthings."

Henley uses these words, as well. But I beg to differ--all media are interactive playthings!! So there is a law that says I have no right to mash up Eleanor Rigby and Hotel California, in my bedroom studio, and play it for my friends, or even post it somewhere, giving credit where it is due? Well then, I invite the "Interactive Plaything Police" to come and bust me, cuz I did that for kicks, a few summers back, even had it on Soundcloud, and it was hella fun, and a lot of work putting together, but totally legal, and not disrespectful of anything or anyone. What needs to be kept highest on the marquee is the capitalizing, the money making off of another artist's work. But this seems to always be left out. It just reeks of a police state to flatly state that it is illegal to use media as "interactive playthings," and NOT include "for money" (or "profit") in that sentence, whether it is supposed to be "understood" or not.

Keep in mind that we are coming out of a rather Marxist-in-philosophy 100+ year old folk tradition where songs, melodies, lyrics, all did polymorphously rub up against each other in the creation of new works. So this "thievery" is nothing new, only now, in this age of Industry and Capital are we being held accountable,, and rightly so. But we should keep in mind that there's a folk tradition mentality that overlaps with raps. Here's what (also accused of stealing by Henley) Will Scheff of (Indie Rock Band) Okervill River says:

"I realized that this is what artists are supposed to do – communicate back and forth with each other over the generations, take old ideas and make them new (since it's impossible to really "imitate" somebody without adding anything of your own), create a rich, shared cultural language that was available to everybody. Once I saw it in folk art, I saw it everywhere – in hip-hop, in street art, in dada. I became convinced that the soul of culture lay in this kind of weird, irreverent-but-reverant back-and-forth.."

(Cited from this Rolling Stone article: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...-henley-copyright-laws-kill-art-20140604 )

You say "Not only can you no longer make money.." which is again, an extreme exaggeration-for-effect. Many still do make money. Most not as much, and I imagine a few are thriving in the modern environment and making more than before. Generation Z kids who grew up Tweeting, perhaps. smile

You say "you might just find that once you put something "out there" you may not even own it any more." And there might be truth in that, but personally I'm not about to get paranoid about that. I could let that paranoia shut me down, like Eric Bogosian's pot-smoker whose solution is to "keep it all up here, in my head, where they can't get to it."

http://www.allmusic.com/album/sex-drugs-rock-roll-mw0000309851

I would definitely suggest everyone archive their work, to prove how and when it originated. But the odds of something like this happening are small, and if someone actually rips us off and makes money on it, we'll probably end up with at least some of that money.

The real crimes took place in the fifties and sixties with the blatant thievery of blues and other rural artists. This stuff is nothing new, and now at least there is a legal system there that aims, however imperfectly, at protecting those who are wronged.

Maybe we just a little bit fear adapting to the new climate and sure we miss the good ol' days..but man..all told..isn't it rather an exciting time to be alive?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/06/15 11:44 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093413 - 10/06/15 11:13 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Glad you enjoy it Micheal. Hope you are right. Doesn't work like that from where I am.

#1093414 - 10/06/15 11:19 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Enjoy what? Right about what? I am agreeing with you, for the most part Marc, but find it difficult because of the way you exaggerate.


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093432 - 10/07/15 09:13 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Micheal,

If you want to call it exaggeration, or hyperbolic, that is fine. But I assure you all of this is true. When I attended a panel discussion attended by most of Nashville's top writers and publishers, and told by a member of the "tech industry" that in the future writers would have to learn to do without royalties because they would not be there anymore",and then a question from one of Nashville's most successful writers, 'How will writers earn a living?" And told, "You Won't."
That was a fact.

Very very few songwriters earn a living anymore.

We have lost nearly 5000 professional songwriters in ten years. Songwriting deals are down to 136 from a high of 1460 in the mid 2000's. That is a fact.

Songs are earning almost nothing. Multi million "selling songs" are earning money in the thousands, not hundreds of thousands. That is a fact.

Publishing companies have closed and shifted the ways they have done business. That is a fact.

And a large percentage of the public are no longer paying for music, no matter what kinds of suggestions the industry makes. Labels still make money but they make it from many other sources that songs themselves.

Myself and members of the songwriting community have been to Congress and deal with this stuff on a daily basis. And see first hand what we are up against. That is a fact.

You can call it hyperbole all you want to. I have to see it from a little different point of view. That of having to be here in this business, dealing with the public and dealing with reality. And passing that on to people trying to get INTO this business and how to deal with a vastly changing landscape.

That is fact. Not Exaggeration. If you had seen most of the people you know, most of the companies you know, most of the way this business has operated completely change and go to mostly "free", you would view it a bit differently.

MAB

#1093436 - 10/07/15 10:57 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Uh, Well,
The lack of songwriter's not making any money is partly, (Mostly) the current economy, changes in what may be selling, and a lack of interest in what is being put out there. Last but not least we have Bernie, who is promising everybody free everything! Now how can you beat that! It is no wonder all the young folk think you should provide free music and you pay for it! If all mechanical royalties are paid, a million seller pays 91 Thousand dollars. If a Publisher is involved, more than likely, that is split in half, half to the publisher, the other half to the songwriter's.

On that note, better keep your day job and be careful what you sign! And! Don't count your chickens before they hatch!

Oh, and before I forget it, it is those dirty low down Bankers on Wall Street that are putting a kink in your songwriting! For more on that look at Cavuto's Video on the front page Fox News, under Record Release, Justice Department. Now that'll put a Burr under your saddle.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 10/07/15 11:08 AM.

Ray E. Strode
#1093454 - 10/07/15 12:49 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Mike, I'm gonna guess that guy Will Scheff isn't any good and hasn't written a Hotel California, a Desperado or a Life in the Fast Lane and never will. He's just using sophistry and tradition as a smokescreen for his lack of songwriting talent. Robert Johnson using the tune of Sitting on Top of the World for Come On In mY Kitchen is one thing. Johnson was an amazing guitarist. Even so, it does tarnish his image when you learn 95%'of his material is from other sources. Dylan came out of that and he had to leave it behind to compete in pop music. Even so, he still takes flak for using others' melodies, as he should. Dylan can rise above that because he was such a revolutionary lyricist. Scheff isn't a revolutionary anything.

If he's using Henley's song without permission, he should be sued. As for Frank Ocean, I've heard his stuff. He just hires a producer to make loops on a computer and raps crap over it. He has no talent whatsoever. Neither does West, Jay-Z, Public Enema, NWA or any of those wanks who go back forty years. They can't write worth a damn.

As a kid I was impressed by the likes of Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts, Bruce's story songs,,tunes by The Band etc. I tried to take what they did and make the lyrics even more cinematic. More plot threads. More complex rhymes and structures. Recently I've tried to mix old Tin Pan Alley pop with my own noir style. That's consciously merging my own idea with older genres. But I'm not sampling Blue Moon and then just rapping over it.

Computers haven't helped pop music much, in fact they've hurt it. A young kid today doesn't feel he has to practice 90 minutes a day after work like Muddy Waters. He can just download some samples and he's an "artist". No he's not.

Over the years since I've been on the Net people have asked me how I keep up the flow. I'm not goofing around on computers. I...f€cking...write. Frank Ocean should, too.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/07/15 12:53 PM.
#1093506 - 10/08/15 12:15 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Ps thanks Marc and Bob. I spent ten minutes trying to get rid of that capital Y and failed. By the end of my post I was aggritated and late for something else.
I was gonna PM you Marc awhile back about something else but never did. Anyway, disagreement about music is ok. People are supposed to disagree about music. That's how it progresses.

#1093512 - 10/08/15 04:04 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Hi Marc,

You are now being sensible and saying "very few" are making it, when before you said that NONE were, and that's all my gripe was. When you have the truth on your side, there's no need to exaggerate. But you made 4 "all or nothing" statements, and those are very easily proven wrong.

Well I know you feel very strongly about these things and are deeply involved in the Nashville scene, but there are probably a multitude of reasons why the numbers are way down. There's DIY culture that has crept in. There's the natural ebb and flow and cycle of trends.

But you are quoting numbers that are/were the infrastructure of Nashville's now decimated music scene? Apart from raising the fines and punishments for illegal downloading, what would you have done? And do you really think if everyone stopped illegal downloads that everything would return to the way it was?

It seems like common sense that, given the shift towards DIY production in the arts that many will be out of work. Out of work folks will shift with the times and find new work. This is the nature of change, and that's what's happening to the music industry--it's changing. You say "for the worse" and I just say "it's changing." I know how horrible and difficult it is to see all this happening up close. You are in the heart of the storm, there.

But away from Nashville and into the nooks and crannies of America and for the most part, little has changed. Most people involved in music are either playing live, or recording their own and selling at concerts. Or they have a little deal with an indie label. For most people outside of the Majors and outside of Nashville, little has changed at all. In fact, most of the hundreds of musicians I know, personally, are doing great, in this climate. They are mostly salt-of-the-earth types (not unlike yourself) who play in bands and self release an album or two a year, and are barely getting by..but are very HAPPY, nonetheless, cuz they are living the life they choose. It's all about expectations. Nashville saw a lot of money in the Garth days. It is understandable some would think things would go on like that forever.

Back on topic--to Frank Ocean. What would you propose to do? Seriously?

You may not understand it, but hip hop culture and sampling just go together. Outlawing any form of sampling would be laughable. Sampling, in and of itself, is no crime. What I do to Hotel California, in the privacy of my own home, is my business. laugh There will never be a law that says that people can't mangle audio and video to their heart's content. It would be an impossible law to enforce. Likewise, it would be hard for a court to decide that an "audio mangler" can't share with friends, for free, over the Internet. But if the sample owner says "cease and desist" then game over. Simple. And anyway, what does Frank Ocean's sampling of The Eagles have to do with Nashville's decline, anyway? Where is the connecting thread between sampling culture and "the decline of the Majors" --I don't see it.

I rarely use samples or loops in my work, but I have no problem with the idea of using them. Sampling culture is not going away, nor should it. It's woven into the fabric of most pop music at this point. It is an industry unto itself. I would lay a bet that James Brown made as much money in the last decade of his life from people sampling him than from any of his records.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 05:09 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093516 - 10/08/15 04:46 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Couch,

You are trying to sway me by discrediting Will Scheff, rather than examining what he says and seeing if it has any merit or not. I mean..wasn't it a little kid who rightly saw and said "the Emperor be nekked!" ..?

Besides, I was only quoting him to show an example of the way many people feel, artists and others as well, NOT that what he said was right or wrong or anything, but that it was typical of the beliefs of many people.

You can sue anyone for anything, but winning a case where no money was involved is tricky. Frank Ocean gave away "American Wedding" --the song in question. So where's the damages? Easier to "cease and desist" or have all copies destroyed. That is what happened to John Oswald a couple decades ago, for using Michael Jackson, and Negativeland for using U2.

But Couch, regardless of how you feel about artists who are part of sampling culture, regardless of the low place you see them in the ranks of artistry-in-general, they will continue to sell their records and have there audience, and they could probably care less that some think that what they do is artless. Personally, I find beautiful work everywhere.

What you do, Couch, is pretty solid. You are a really good writer, and your story lyrics are pretty damn cinematic. Maybe the most impressive collection of lyrics I've ever seen. But don't believe that your way of seeing things and of doing things is the only way to see and do them. Very few are so naive that they would think they could sample Blue Moon, then rap over it and call it a finished song. You are oversimplifying and exaggerating to make a point. There's a lot that goes into making records that involve samples.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 04:52 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093518 - 10/08/15 11:23 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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Much of what is being discussed here is the result of jobs being replaced by technology. Compare a songwriter and a high priced recording studio with a ton of studio musicians to a secretary typing reports on a typewriter.....word processing by the writer has put most secretaries and typists out of business. Similarly, a pop song is produced by one guy making a beat on his computer, plus the vocalists. And a handful of songwriters can churn out the crappy lyrics to every pop song in the world (I am referring to the Rihanna, Beyonce school of pop, not the great stuff that never hits the airwaves).


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1093522 - 10/08/15 12:24 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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The fact that you have to ask "What is the damage" shows the problem.

MAB

#1093545 - 10/08/15 04:49 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Mike, I'm not trying to sway you, I'm trying to conclusively prove you wrong, haha. I not only discredited Sheff's songwriting(which you didn't contradict), I used my own example of taking tradition and melding it with my own methods to create something new.

It's irrelevant whether Ocean profited from sampling Henley's property. If I plant a tree on my ranch, water it and grow it and then a trespasser steals a branch, writes a dumb ass poem on it and then gives it to charity...he's still a THIEF. he took my property without permission. Something I grew and tended to myself.

The reason why Ocean does this is because he has no creative musical talent of his own. Zero. Nada. Nothing.

Sampling being a big part of hip hop culture is no justification. All it means is that hip hop stands on a very weak foundation, if not an immoral one. I first heard rap when I was 15...it consisted of some moron talking dirty over what I later realized was a drum machine and some loops. That was 1981. I wasn't any more impressed with Run DMC rapping BS over a sample of Walk This Way. I've seen that described by Rolling Stone as a milestone in hip hop. Wow. Maybe I'll write a really bad poem over the Van Gogh print in my living room so Rolling Stone will call it a milestone in art. I had the pleasure of seeing some idiot named Busta Rhymes praised recently so I had a listen. It was kindergarten lyrics rapped over a sample of Bernard Hermann's theme for Psycho. So, I'm not simplifying what rappers do. They may use multiple layers of samples, loops and drum programs but it still complete and utter dogsh!t.

I'm sure it galls Henley that Rolling Stone slammed The Eagles back in the 70s only to praise talentless rappers today for sampling his extremely well crafted, timeless songs. Rap has been around nearly forty years and has not progressed beyond really bad writers yelling profanity over computers. Frank Ocean has no talent whatsoever and rap is worthless trash.

#1093548 - 10/08/15 05:15 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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AMEN MR. COUCH GROUCH. You are exactly right on this. Thank you for a great perspective.

MAB

#1093559 - 10/08/15 05:57 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Marc, I ask "where's the damages" rhetorically. This is what needs to be proven. I am asking as a judge would. You are innocent until proven guilty. Damages need to be proven. To use another's work in your own is not in and of itself damaging anyone. That involves intent, distribution, etc. So you think it is not more difficult to prove damages when no money is involved?

Couch, A musical recording possessed by millions everywhere around the world is not the same thing as a tree planted in a particular garden on a particular ranch. A better analogy would be to clone several million replicas of that tree and sell them/give them to people who put them in their gardens, behind their homes. Then tell them they can't monkey with the tree, cuz it's intellectual property. Guaranteed--many trees end up with monograms carved in somewhere. It's human nature. And when you create laws that defy it, it is a hard road. Just ask prohibition.

I understand your feelings about rap and hip hop. They are low on your totem pole of creativity, I get it. But your pronouncement that rap is worthless trash is subjective and invective.

To me this is all "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street." Fear and loathing about what you don't really understand. It's easy to hate a man who takes anothers' song and puts his own words on it, then calls it his own. If hip hop culture were this single image, then perhaps your hate would be justified. But it's not. It's not the dominant trait by a longshot. It's a stereotype.

For me, rap is a tree branch of spoken poetry, not unlike what Ferlinghetti and Rexroth were doing over jazz. Many rappers cite the Last Poets and Gil Scott-Heron as their grand daddies. Rap may be an inferior music, but it's not an inferior poetry. There's good and bad in rap, like anything else.

Millions like a style of music that for the most part I don't, but to me, it's all part of the bigger picture..it's a big stew..and there's good and bad in every kind of music..with some, perhaps, the good is harder to find..but that may be more due to my cultural background and other factors, as opposed to it being inferior as an art. Millions like it. Give them that. Let them be, let them like what they want to like, and if you don't think it sounds a little schoolboy-ish to claim "the musical styles I like are superior to yours.." ..well..

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 06:05 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093560 - 10/08/15 06:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Mike, there are many copies of Hotel California but only ONE composition, which Henley is part owner of. No one has a right to publicly use it without his permission. Period. Just because I post a lyric I wrote on multiple sites, it's one work and I don't want someone using any part of it without my consent, as is my right as its author.

Rap is really bad. I've never heard a single rap track I respect. And considering its reliance on the rankest language possible to disguise its writers' lack of talent, saying so is no worse than saying pornographic movies are poorly written, directed and acted and only appeal to the lowest denominator.

And I've seen Gil Scott Heron's stuff. The revolution won't keep me awake.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/08/15 06:39 PM.
#1093562 - 10/08/15 06:53 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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And all I am saying is that enforcing that is impossible, except on a case-by-case basis. Human nature always wins.

What would you propose be done? Make files impenetrable? They tried that. Didn't work. Monitor people for music file tampering? laugh Are you listening Charlie Brooker, here's a plot for a new Black Mirror episode!

A minority of artists will always see all sound and images as mold-able clay for theirs to use. If they go public, certainly it is best to ask permission. But in my own home, and for my friends? I would love to see this Black Mirror episode!

It only becomes an issue when said "questionable" work enters the public eye. Then damages can be proven.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 07:02 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093563 - 10/08/15 07:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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And a minority of people will always steal to support themselves. Criminalize their behavior and punish it. And don't be shy about calling out such "artists" for their lack of talent. Amen Henley.

#1093564 - 10/08/15 07:02 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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"Dear..are you there..yeah..yeah..in jail..I know..what did I do? I took Hotel California, and sped it up, removed the vocal, put a didgeridoo on top..I know I know..I was thinking "Hotel Perth" and it was sounding pretty good..and I didn't post it on line or anything..but then seven cops swooped in, like the National Guard, can you believe it? I know..I am in here with all these nerdy guys..I'm gonna die..please come bail me out!!"


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093565 - 10/08/15 07:20 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
And a minority of people will always steal to support themselves. Criminalize their behavior and punish it. And don't be shy about calling out such "artists" for their lack of talent. Amen Henley.


Couch,

Using someone's work in your own has it's place and is even protected by law in certain kinds of cases.

Like you say, it's about the composition, not the millions of files. If I use a mashed up copy, a file of Hotel California in a work of mine, you may say I "stole it" --but Henley still owns the composition. What has been stolen? Appropriated use without the author's approval, yes. Outright theft of someone's music? Harder to agree with that.

To use someone else's work, depending on the wherefore and why, can indeed be highly unethical, but it is not always, or even predominantly, the case. Fair use, for one.

The majority of bands and artists big enough to be in the public eye are getting their samples "cleared" first so everybody's happy.

So where are we disagreeing?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 07:23 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093570 - 10/08/15 08:39 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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I think Frank Ocean is a talentless toad and should be sued into bankruptcy for using Henley's work without permission. If you agree with that, we're not disagreeing, haha. Sampling without permission is theft, even if no material property is appropriated.

I'm just repeating myself now. My case has been made. Frank Ocean should learn to write his own songs or hire a band and cover others' songs, giving full credit to the writers. Using computers to sample others' recordings is theft and betrays a complete lack of talent. It's unethical, plain and simple.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/08/15 08:43 PM.
#1093573 - 10/08/15 09:13 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Sampling without permission is theft.


No Couch, that is not always the case. Most of the sampling without permission is not theft. Most of it is done at home, for fun, and shared with friends, and it's totally legal. So is mangling said audio beyond recognition, and even distributing that.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/permission-sampled-music-sample-clearance-30165.html

I quote:

"

If you use samples in your commercially released music, you should get legal permission. The process of getting permission from the owners of the sampled music is referred to as "sample clearance." Failure to get the proper permission could lead to serious consequences: lawsuits or the inability to distribute your music to the public.

When Sample Clearance Is Required

In general, sample clearance is required only if you plan to make copies of your music and distribute the copies to the public. (italics mine)

Sample clearance is generally not required if:

You are just using the sampled music at home. (italics mine)

You are using the sample in live shows. This is because, usually, you are not making copies and the owner of the venue pays the blanket license fees to performing rights organizations such as Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI) or American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers (ASCAP).

You plan to distribute copies to the public but meet one of the following: (1) an average listener would not notice the similarities between your end product and the sample, or (2) your use of the sample falls under the "fair use" doctrine. For more information on these..

"


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/09/15 05:45 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093605 - 10/09/15 03:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Offline
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
This is something that has been happening all too much over the past few years. It is the preponderance of people, particularly rappers, who simply sample existing songs and put their own lyrics on them. (If that is what you want to call them). They don't respect intellectual property in the least and think that anything is interactive playthings.

This article is about the Eagles Don Henley and a rapper named Frank Ocean, who simply took the existing music tracks, guitars, bass, drums, everything, on the song HOTEL CALIFORNIA, and put his own rap lyrics to it. Then got pissed off when they told him that he couldn't do that. Basically told them to go "S***W themselves.

We are seeing this more and more with younger artists and writers, who simply don't even see anything wrong with doing whatever they want to with music. I recently had a several post argument on another site, about just "taking existing songs and putting his lyrics to them." He could not see any problem whatsoever with it.

When people are so concerned with copyrights, especially on songs that usually go NOWHERE, this is something they need to be concerned with. Not that someone is going to steal their idea. That someone is going to take their TRACKS, their creative work, their intellectual property, and just use it for their own uses. If you go to YOU TUBE you will see hundreds of thousands of people using their own slideshows, videos, etc, and using hit songs for their own use with no licencing, no thought to anything other than what they want to use it for.

Just another fact in the "free music" era we are living in. People stopped respecting anything a long time ago. Why I have said so many times, not to get too concerned about making any money at this. Not only can you no longer make money, you might just find that once you put something "out there" you may not even own it any more.

The story:
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/10/02/don-henley-calls-frank-ocean-a-talentless-little-prick-kanye/21244024/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D1686540443

MAB


YouTube itself is the biggest copyright violator in history but they are too big and powerful to stop or fight... it's sad really.... the Gov is TERRIFIED of Google and will let them do ANYTHING they please without restraint.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#1093620 - 10/09/15 08:29 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney

YouTube itself is the biggest copyright violator in history but they are too big and powerful to stop or fight... it's sad really.... the Gov is TERRIFIED of Google and will let them do ANYTHING they please without restraint.


But thanks to Google, we can now "self-police" and see who is doing "what" to our music, who is defiling our files.

In vintage forms of theft, hasn't it always been up to the victims to report the theft? No different now, and now because of these same "big violators" we can actually know, pretty fast, who is stealing from whom.

What are some solutions?

We've been talking about two entirely different things, here. The practice of using UN-authoriized samples in ones' own audio track--that's one. The other is the practice of uploading/downloading songs and albums by current artists, either the "legal" youtube way (notice the quotes) or in the black market.

As to the sampling..there will always be a small percentage that are outright thieves, but most samples that are used without permission are used without hurting anyone. That some folks don't see the difference between selling multiple copies of a piece with stolen samples, and someone who creates something at home, with only the intention of having fun exploring the medium of audio manipulation and playing it for friends, may have more to do with their cultural backgrounds than any truths about the nature of "intellectual property."

Someone posted a version of Steve Reich's "Music For 18 Musicians" that he had slowed down I think to 1/100th of it's original speed, and posted that. If Steve Reich cared, he'd have had it removed. But the thing is, most modern classical composers know the value of experiment. It can lead you places you wouldn't get to, in a normal, day-to-day, creative routine. The process of slowing the piece down so greatly also transformed the piece into something unrecognizable as "Music For 18 Musicians" --into something completely different--only recognizable as Reich's composition if you speed the audio back up. Under current copyright (sampling) law, this is not theft. "Transforming beyond recognition to average listeners" is not a violation of copyright, as to the current law.

There are many reasons why people use and manipulate audio, most are benign. Those that actually make money off of stolen samples are easily found out. Those who post (works with stolen samples) to youtube and friends for fun can always be asked to 'cease and desist.'

As to this other, entirely different practice of uploading/downloading albums and entire catalogs of current artists and making them available to listen to on youtube and other places--it's easy to see how these "listens" take away from physical sales or Itune sales--but it's interesting more artists don't block this practice like Prince does..

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/10/15 05:08 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093662 - 10/10/15 04:31 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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MidniteBob Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
I'm gonna chime in again, with nothing to offer on the "business side", because that's not my forte, nor my concern for the last decade.

Oh, man, this is gonna ramble, but I'll bring it back to a Woody Guthrie quote that Michael's first post reminded me of.

I realized around 2002 that I'd missed the bus. But my bus was based on a model that was pulling out of the station about a decade earlier. MAB, I believe it was you who told of a night back in the '90's when someone said something about some thing called the "internet"???

Anyone who was hoping to make a living in music should have realized that the internet-bus was gonna bust up the $$$-flow-model..And that was in the mid-90's!!!!

MAB's quote, to me, seems like one of those very few seminal conversational moments, when someone says something, and no one really understands the eventual impact.

I had one of those moments, back in 1981, TOTALLY UNRELATED TO MUSIC...A group of us were out to dinner. One of us was a nurse(Her name was, and probably still is, Rhonda). We were talking about STD's, don't ask me why, and how widespread herpes was becoming, in a kind of light-hearted way.

And Rhonda said: There's something new coming out of Africa that is going to make everyone forget about herpes.

That was the first I'd heard of it, but certainly wasn't the last....

Ok, back to music and the internet & theft & etc and the quote that Michael reminded me of, regarding what I think this thread is addressing regarding what we consider "Intellectual property"...And oh, my, I bet the lawyers have made a fortune off of that term...

Michael mentioned the old "Folk Music" tradition of mixing and matching(forgive my paraphrase), and it is absolutely true.

He also mentioned that the biggest "profiteers" off of other people's creative works were the record companies in the 50's and 60's...I don't have to paraphrase, because good heavens above, artists got screwed!!!!

All right, before I ramble too much, here is the Woody Guthrie quote:

I just write down the words as fast as I can get 'em, and then find a melody that's been proven to be popular.

Someone once pointed out to Woody that he'd just written another song with the melody of "Irene Goodnight", and Woody said "Damn, I knew I'd heard it somewhere before"...The song was "Ramblin' 'round".

But it wasn't considered "theft" back then. It was tradition. In order to sue someone for theft, you'd have to bring lawyers in, and there goes everyone's fun and any profits.

Yes, times have changed since 1950...But with the internet, times change every other hour.

Just sayin'...

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
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