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#1093197 - 10/03/15 01:28 AM Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards"  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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This is something that has been happening all too much over the past few years. It is the preponderance of people, particularly rappers, who simply sample existing songs and put their own lyrics on them. (If that is what you want to call them). They don't respect intellectual property in the least and think that anything is interactive playthings.

This article is about the Eagles Don Henley and a rapper named Frank Ocean, who simply took the existing music tracks, guitars, bass, drums, everything, on the song HOTEL CALIFORNIA, and put his own rap lyrics to it. Then got pissed off when they told him that he couldn't do that. Basically told them to go "S***W themselves.

We are seeing this more and more with younger artists and writers, who simply don't even see anything wrong with doing whatever they want to with music. I recently had a several post argument on another site, about just "taking existing songs and putting his lyrics to them." He could not see any problem whatsoever with it.

When people are so concerned with copyrights, especially on songs that usually go NOWHERE, this is something they need to be concerned with. Not that someone is going to steal their idea. That someone is going to take their TRACKS, their creative work, their intellectual property, and just use it for their own uses. If you go to YOU TUBE you will see hundreds of thousands of people using their own slideshows, videos, etc, and using hit songs for their own use with no licencing, no thought to anything other than what they want to use it for.

Just another fact in the "free music" era we are living in. People stopped respecting anything a long time ago. Why I have said so many times, not to get too concerned about making any money at this. Not only can you no longer make money, you might just find that once you put something "out there" you may not even own it any more.

The story:
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/10/02/don-henley-calls-frank-ocean-a-talentless-little-prick-kanye/21244024/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D1686540443

MAB

#1093242 - 10/03/15 10:37 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Dave Rice Online content
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Marc:

We are certainly on the same page on this thread. I don't understand why RIAA is not "all over" folks who "sample." To me, it is simply another word for "stealing."

I suppose the idea regarding "free music" came about during the "radio era" when one could listen to music for free by turning on the radio... if you didn't mind listening to some of the corniest commercials ever created.

People would hear a song and, if they liked it, would sometimes buy a single or an album, depending on how much "spare change" was available in one's house-hold. Most of the Rich Kids had 45's or LP's but a significant number of my high school friends only heard songs on the radio, me included... until I saved enough money to buy a record player. Even then my collection was small but I understood that music was not really "free."

The digital era made it so easy for kids to illegally download and by the time "measures were taken" to prevent it... or suppress it, the horse was out of the barn.

You are 100% correct about making money. I watched an interview today on some obscure channel where the co-founder of Pandora was being interviewed. He was proud of the fact that half their income is "doled out" to artists and then songwriters. I never heard the percentages but I believe the artist receives a much larger slice of the pie. If it really is a larger slice for the artist, that is a sad statement about how "streaming" should be straightened out. Songwriters always seem to be at the bottom rung of the pyramid... and I resent the absolute hell out of it.

Last edited by Dave Rice; 10/03/15 10:39 PM.
#1093243 - 10/03/15 11:14 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Should I shoot myself NOW or Later Marc.....lol
That's why even at my age I thank God everyday for the Gift of being able to write melodies, words, plan AND sing.....I love this ability and Still enjoy writing songs. I have a new one called BEING DIFFERENT IS BEAUTIFUL with a cool video and getting lots of feedback.

But we live in the Dark Days of the Bizz but eventually it will change....but I'll be playing in my new band. The Angels All Stars....lol Just plugging along doing the best I can....

#1093244 - 10/03/15 11:14 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Should I shoot myself NOW or Later Marc.....lol
That's why even at my age I thank God everyday for the Gift of being able to write melodies, words, plan AND sing.....I love this ability and Still enjoy writing songs. I have a new one called BEING DIFFERENT IS BEAUTIFUL with a cool video and getting lots of feedback.

But we live in the Dark Days of the Bizz but eventually it will change....but I'll be playing in my new band. The Angels All Stars....lol Just plugging along doing the best I can....

#1093247 - 10/04/15 02:51 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Dave,

One of the misnomers about all of this is the servers, the people like PANDORA, and SPOTIFY, talking about the billions they are doling out. But there are no songwriters or artists getting much of it. It is the running joke in Nashville how every publisher, major, independent, etc. all have these framed checks for .000022 cents. I keep hearing a lot of people talking about all the money they are making from streaming, but there is not one major writer that I know of that are satisfied.

When downloading began in the 90's, mostly from the college bands, most notably the SEATTLE GRUNGE rockers like NIRVANA. had no radio format. So they began to give music away in order to get people into their shows and to buy merchandise. As it spread, people like SHAWN FANNING of NAPSTER, perfected ways for college kids to openly download songs for free. Later would come file sharing, and then open theft. The powers that be have tried to retaliate, by lawsuits, Cease and desist orders, and groups like Metallica, and others getting a bad rap in the press for trying to enforce any kind of laws. Of course it is big news when some big bad evil rich rock stars suing some 13 year old girl for downloading. Of course they don't get too upset when they find out she downloaded 10,000 songs.
Cause of course, all us writers and artists are SOOO RICH!

So the battle has been joined, the "We want what we want and we want it right now" entitlement mentality, against trying to have some sort of compensation for what we do. The battle will never end. There are always going to be people who want what they want and will find ways to get it for free.

They keep trying things like "subscription services" where you get unlimited downloading for $10. a month. Of course, in the real world, that would cover ten songs. Oh well.

The encroaching result would be this,the 'sampling." And that is what brings us to this article. There are many, many people, writers and artists, who find NOTHING wrong with just taking an existing song and writing their own lyrics to it. They can't figure out why anyone would have a problem with that.

Which is why we have people like this guy Frank Ocean. He feels "nobody made any money off it", which is nonsense, because about 800,000 people downloaded his version of this song, which led to higher concert tickets, merchandise, etc. I'm sure he made a fortune on hats, t-shirts, jewelry, because it is the ANCILARY BENEFITS of songs that we see now. Branding, etc. are where the actual money is. Whatever brings people to your brand, is just a means to justify the ends. And what brought this entire article about.

It is the reason that everytime I see threads about "How do I copyright this? "How do I protect myself.." "What film and television library.." "Has anyone ever heard of?..." threads. Because now it is no longer and issue of protecting yourself from someone "stealing your idea." They are now ready to take your idea, your tracks, anything you have spent time, money, intellectual time to create. There is a mentality that says you don't own any of it any more.

Sad state of affairs, but it is what it is.

MAB


#1093254 - 10/04/15 12:39 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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When were the Eagles Popular? Seems it was in the 80's maybe over 30 years ago. Did the Eagles copyright their material? This will remind everyone to always keep good records and register their copyrights as something could come up many years later and getting the facts together may be impossible. The old saying, An Oz. of prevention is worth a pound of Cure still applies.


Ray E. Strode
#1093255 - 10/04/15 12:59 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Kind of Ray. Hotel California sold around 28 million records. It is third or fourth on the biggest selling list. So yes, there is more than enough copyrights. The point is that in the eyes of more and more COPYRIGHTS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING ANYMORE. People simply take what they want and you have to sue to stop them.

Oh yeah, and they are still on the top ten touring acts in the world. Made something like $300 million dollars last year. Doesn't matter how much money you have.

MAB

#1093256 - 10/04/15 01:02 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Sorry. I was wrong. Hotel California is 15th on the Best selling albums list. With only 30 Million in sales.
Their "Greatest Hits" is at number 6 with 38 million in sales.

Since the 70's when they were popular, they still sell around 20,000 a week I believe.

Sorry for the misleading numbers.

MAB

#1093257 - 10/04/15 01:11 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Humm,
It is true you have to get a court Judgement if you want to settle a problem. There was a story of the Beatles suing their Record Label for unpaid royalties a while back. Never heard of the outcome. If the Eagles are taking in that amount of money they shouldn't even worry about a small thing as maybe someone helping there self to some copyright violation of their material. But if they are inclined to do so, there is always the courts, assuming it is worth it. I'm sure there will be more lawsuits about some Artist getting screwed by their label. You have to take care of business or it will "Take" care of you! It is a Do it yourself world, because if you don't do it, don't expect any one else to do it or you!


Ray E. Strode
#1093262 - 10/04/15 02:57 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Ray, did you read ANY of this article? it is something that is happening across the board in all of Entertainment. Sure you can use the courts, but usually that is a nice 8-10 year wait. Was 13 years for the "George Harrison/He's so fine/My Sweet Lord" case to be settled. An average is about 8 years.

Has NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY. It is about the ownership of intellectual property, and is all part of a much larger discussion. It leads into things like IDENTITY THEFT, hacking by foreign governments, there are a LOT of issues interelated here. Courts are only one part of it. There is an ongoing debate worldwide to even if copyrights are going to be allowed. There are governments, like Sweden, who are advocating for the end of all copyrights, patents, any creative endeavors whatsoever.

This is one on sampling and taking existing music from ANYBODY, the Eagles just bring it to the forefront. And that exact attitude "With that much money' is part of the reason no one is making money on music any more. Because for 20 years, people have put NO MONETARY VALUE on music at all. That is where the money went and what Henley calls the attitude of "Interactive playthings." It is another part of the "entitlement generation."

That is what is at stake. Of course the courts are an option, but that takes decades.

My entire point is that money in music,for the most part is GONE. And this is just one more part of it. When looking at all discussions on the subject of music, marketing, living in the current world (that is NOT going backward) these are things writers need to be aware of.

MAB

#1093265 - 10/04/15 04:20 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well,
You still have to take it to court. I once suggested those that were stealing music by downloading it should be taken to the nearest tree and hung but was blasted for it. A story about Charlie Daniels being sued for stealing somebody's song cost him 50 thousand dollars to defend himself as he didn't take that person's song. And a lot of people won't take outside songs for fear of being sued. It has a ring of Ambulance Chasers to it. I still like hanging best. Cuts out the middle man.

It was Napster I think that thought they could buy one copy of a recording and sell copies of it until the cows come home and pay no one for it. Yes, hanging is the best cure.


Ray E. Strode
#1093266 - 10/04/15 04:24 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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The lawsuits run the other way to. One of the main reasons you will never get songs heard by anyone that doesn't know you now. Every major writer and artist has been sued over the past few years. It is absolutely ambulance chasers. Because no one HEARS their songs. but they can sue a ham sandwich and everyone has to defend themselves.

When I do an NSAI workshop, I have to buy LIABILITY INSURANCE that protects me from being sued. No one even listens anymore to avoid any chance of lawsuits. And believe me, there are NOT MUCH WORTH STEALING EITHER.

M

#1093267 - 10/04/15 04:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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i'm guessing it works the same way if it were turned around and someone took your lyric or poem and put it to music without your consent,or not?

#1093277 - 10/04/15 08:58 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Micheal,

That's what I am talking about. This is something that really sticks in my craw. Imagine someone taking a song of yours and writing lyrics that are really offensive to you. Something that glorified Hitler or very anti your political or moral views, say something very anti religious on one of Everett's songs.

And it gets out, becomes some big You Tube anthem, with a video that is very offensive. Then Everett becomes known for that song and even gets threats, lawsuits, all kinds of quite dangerous things, I don't have to tell you how weird society has gotten.
Even if they were forced to take it down, (after enough time to have it downloaded all over the place) that is still going to be out there and his reputation has been damaged.

Over the years, the Rap community has done just that. Taken existing TRACKS, not just the idea or re-doing the music, but the actual tracks that were recorded, and record over it.

This happened to two friends of mine. They had a cut back in the 70's on a popular Soul artist. A couple of decades later, their daughter heard that song on the radio with ALL NEW rap lyrics put over the music they had written. She called to ask them if they had licenced that song and they had not. They found out it was the artist Snoop Dog, who had taken that song, A Bobby Womack song from the 70's, and put his own lyrics (I use that term loosely) on their song. And it was very offensive to them.

It took them years to actually get him to pay them anything and when he finally did, most of what they made was eaten up by legal fees.

The entire point is that taking other people's creative work without their permission is totally wrong, and sometimes even giving permission is not a good idea.

MAB

#1093282 - 10/04/15 09:55 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Barry David Butler Online content
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Hey Marc.....any ideas as to HOW this changes or what anybody can do. I hate just seeing this and taking it up the yazoo.
There has to be some Justice Somewhere.

#1093287 - 10/04/15 10:24 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Barry David Butler]  
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i'm done writing parodies,seems to be about the same thing.I've taken what parodies i've written and deleted them.No worries,i made no money on them anyway.Mike

#1093295 - 10/04/15 11:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Nashville, Tn.
Barry, I don't really see much that can be done. I feel it is coming and going to be more. Of course, I am believing that copyrights and all protection are going to be things of the past. The ability to protect anything in a "take it wherever you want" era is just not workable. The same that keeps happening every few months or whatever. There is always a "This is going to be the thing that turns it all around", people keep trying and I wish them well. But once things were made FREE with unlimited access there was not a lot that could be done.

As always there will be the large mega companies that can have enough legal muscle to do something. Smaller companies and individuals (and you are talking about an entire business that is comprised of individuals) will not. The ability to get music OUT THERE, came with a very large price. EVERYONE BEING ABLE TO GET THEIR MUSIC OUT THERE. When you make something open and accessable to everyone, and overwhelm the supply, there is no ability to demand anything for it.

Right now, California is in a drought with no water anywhere. They are fighting for it. But if suddenly it rained every day and every where, all the reservoirs filled up and overfilled, the cost would come down and people would not have to pay as much for it.

With music the platform everyone has to have is the Internet. With billions of communications and particularly songs a day, there is no physical way to police all this stuff. There is no way to really legislate it. We have to take the good with the bad. And unfortunately, when it comes to the modern music era, there is a lot of bad.

But there is good too. I don't ever want people to forget that. I try to point out to people like Ray, that there are still people he would like out there. There is some great music being made. there are new breakthrough artists all the time coming up. There are interesting things going on. Just a lot of the time we have to look for it. We can have forums and share information. So we are not all going to be rich rock stars. Is that what everyone wanted to do this for?

There are a lot of elements to what Brian preaches all the time. Finding ways to distribute our music, finding out own audiences. There is always hope for people who are creative and inventive. Always will be. Just might not be in the forms we have become familiar with in the past.

Micheal, I am with you on the parodies. I quit doing them a while ago. I used to do a lot of comedy and they were mainly for that. And every rare once in a while I might come out with a routine I used to do for some private people. But most of those are more voice parodies than anything else. I do a reasonably good Joe Cocker, Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, Micheal McDonald, and a few other choice selections. But as far as making up words on other people's songs. Nah, I'm pretty much done with that.

Oh well, Don't let it all get you too far down. Tomorrow will be another day, we'll all write some songs, we'll keep on going on. Hopefully, someone will come up with another thread and we can replace this one.

Hmmmm. How's that Ray Bob?

MAB



#1093298 - 10/04/15 11:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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So what do i say Marc?

Anyone that has to use someone else's music to be successful has no talent to speak of and will fail enventually. And it may be more expensive for them to do. Taking too many shortcuts may result in no monitary gain to speak of.

Dang. Out in the Old West they hung a horse thief. Saw on the news tonight where a facility in Missouri is manufacturing Cassette Tapes to beat the band. Some things you can't keep down. Music Thieves, Tape Cassettes, and Horse Thieves!


Ray E. Strode
#1093300 - 10/05/15 01:18 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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MidniteBob Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
The floodgates opened and the dam broke a decade or so ago.

Neither of the, ahem, "artists", involved with this are anyone I would want to share a beer with.

One is an old-fart dick-weed, and the other is a young fart dick-weed in the making...And eventually they will all be paying their lawyers to say "Hey, keep off my lawn!!!"

As long as they have the money to keep paying their lawyers, then I say have at it....But I have no sympathy for either party...

Perhaps, if Don Henley was someone I actually respected, my response would be different, but he is a well-documented dick-weed....

I know that there's a bigger picture to consider, but it needs a better spokesperson....

"The times, they are a changin'"

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1093317 - 10/05/15 10:47 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Vengeance is mine say it the Lord.

#1093345 - 10/05/15 07:26 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Our legal system is broken and will remain so as long as we keep electing lawyers to every political office. No lawyer is going to vote to stop the proliferation of lawsuits because they get rich from them. This is one of many examples of a legal system that will do nothing useful about it in our lifetimes. Elect businessmen, engineers, doctors, teachers, and maybe things will change but lawyers control the parties so that ain't happening either unless a Trump can get himself elected simply by being a billionaire.

Perhaps someone in the Copyright office can be cajoled into stopping their paper pushing long enough to take some action on this subject.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1093354 - 10/05/15 10:00 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Bob, henley's personality or whether you want to have a beer with him are irrelevant to the issue stated in Marc's post. In fact, I'm surprised that on a songwriter's site, this isn't easily understood. Maybe I'm not surprised. Don Henley co-wrote one of the best written, enduring songs in rock's history. Then sang and played on the recording. He partially owns that intellectual property and doesn't want some clown who can't write, sing or play squatting on his musical ranch. Do you realize the level of talent and skill required to write, compose and perform Hotel California? It's very, very high and is possessed by very few. I hate to say it, but just read a few lyrics here for confirmation.

It's an important issue for writers and artists in an era when any shmuck with some samples and a rhyming dictionary can call himself an "artist". I mean c'mon...does anyone think Kanye West is a musical genius? I've seen him called that by mainstream magazines. He has no discernible talent. Should he be able to sample old Gamble and Huff hooks without their permission? No. Whether I wanna share a brew or a bowl of beer nuts with any of them matters not.

I've been ripped off and I don't f€cling like it. No reason Henley should, either.

#1093355 - 10/05/15 10:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Extrodinarily well put Mr. Couch Grouch. Well done, well said. Exactly so.

MAB

#1093356 - 10/05/15 10:41 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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MidniteBob Offline
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MidniteBob  Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Extrodinarily well put Mr. Couch Grouch. Well done, well said. Exactly so.

MAB


Extremely well put Mr. Couch. Grouch!....

"Oh, Mr. Robert(s)"...

I only responded to see if I could antagonize you & Mr. Marc to agree on something:-)...

And what I said about Mr. Henley was taken from another post about by BAW & his interaction with him....

My mission in this thread is accomplished...

Carry on...Sincerely!!!!....Keep the "reality" of the "biz" flowing!!!

Midnite

P.S...Couch? I've been following you since around 2001. Well done Sir!!!!

P.P.S...My friends call me Midnite...No one really calls me Bob anymore...Long story...:-)


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1093365 - 10/06/15 12:03 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Yes Mr. Midnight,

I do sense some cooling trends in the lower infernal regions. As I agree with not only one but TWO of Mr. Grouch's opinions. (The other being Mr. West's obvious lack of talent. A lot of "The Emperor has no clothes, that people have been taken in by.)
When someone is correct, no matter, who it is, that should be pointed out. Congratulations Sir Grouch.

Now here is the "other shoe" to drop. I always "reverse the situation." And if Mr. Henley had taken Mr. West's alleged songs and written his own lyrics in the same manner, it would STILL BE WRONG. Aside from laughing my butt off at the Irony of Karma, I would still be against it for Mr. West's rights. It's all just a WRONG thing. Period.

On your opinions of Henely, I do share some of them, although I do have to give credit for a very talented person where it is due. His songs have had a substantial effect on me. But if I disliked everyone for their personal behavior and attitudes, I probably would hate pretty much every actor, and many many singers out there. Would be a pretty small list that I could stomach.

Enough on this subject for me.

MAB


#1093394 - 10/06/15 07:51 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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It's a case of borrowed feathers, where new kids on the block try to tap into well known successes in order to be associated with it.

If that was just a free ride, recorded music, and any other type of ownership rights, would be gone.

.. allthough recorded music is barely breathing anymore.


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/buzztracks
#1093412 - 10/06/15 11:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Hi Marc,

I kind of agree with what you are saying, but find that you say it in a rather hyperbolic way. I mean "people stopped respecting anything a long time ago.." ..?

You say "They don't respect intellectual property in the least and think that anything is interactive playthings."

Henley uses these words, as well. But I beg to differ--all media are interactive playthings!! So there is a law that says I have no right to mash up Eleanor Rigby and Hotel California, in my bedroom studio, and play it for my friends, or even post it somewhere, giving credit where it is due? Well then, I invite the "Interactive Plaything Police" to come and bust me, cuz I did that for kicks, a few summers back, even had it on Soundcloud, and it was hella fun, and a lot of work putting together, but totally legal, and not disrespectful of anything or anyone. What needs to be kept highest on the marquee is the capitalizing, the money making off of another artist's work. But this seems to always be left out. It just reeks of a police state to flatly state that it is illegal to use media as "interactive playthings," and NOT include "for money" (or "profit") in that sentence, whether it is supposed to be "understood" or not.

Keep in mind that we are coming out of a rather Marxist-in-philosophy 100+ year old folk tradition where songs, melodies, lyrics, all did polymorphously rub up against each other in the creation of new works. So this "thievery" is nothing new, only now, in this age of Industry and Capital are we being held accountable,, and rightly so. But we should keep in mind that there's a folk tradition mentality that overlaps with raps. Here's what (also accused of stealing by Henley) Will Scheff of (Indie Rock Band) Okervill River says:

"I realized that this is what artists are supposed to do – communicate back and forth with each other over the generations, take old ideas and make them new (since it's impossible to really "imitate" somebody without adding anything of your own), create a rich, shared cultural language that was available to everybody. Once I saw it in folk art, I saw it everywhere – in hip-hop, in street art, in dada. I became convinced that the soul of culture lay in this kind of weird, irreverent-but-reverant back-and-forth.."

(Cited from this Rolling Stone article: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...-henley-copyright-laws-kill-art-20140604 )

You say "Not only can you no longer make money.." which is again, an extreme exaggeration-for-effect. Many still do make money. Most not as much, and I imagine a few are thriving in the modern environment and making more than before. Generation Z kids who grew up Tweeting, perhaps. smile

You say "you might just find that once you put something "out there" you may not even own it any more." And there might be truth in that, but personally I'm not about to get paranoid about that. I could let that paranoia shut me down, like Eric Bogosian's pot-smoker whose solution is to "keep it all up here, in my head, where they can't get to it."

http://www.allmusic.com/album/sex-drugs-rock-roll-mw0000309851

I would definitely suggest everyone archive their work, to prove how and when it originated. But the odds of something like this happening are small, and if someone actually rips us off and makes money on it, we'll probably end up with at least some of that money.

The real crimes took place in the fifties and sixties with the blatant thievery of blues and other rural artists. This stuff is nothing new, and now at least there is a legal system there that aims, however imperfectly, at protecting those who are wronged.

Maybe we just a little bit fear adapting to the new climate and sure we miss the good ol' days..but man..all told..isn't it rather an exciting time to be alive?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/06/15 11:44 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093413 - 10/06/15 11:13 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Glad you enjoy it Micheal. Hope you are right. Doesn't work like that from where I am.

#1093414 - 10/06/15 11:19 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Enjoy what? Right about what? I am agreeing with you, for the most part Marc, but find it difficult because of the way you exaggerate.


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093432 - 10/07/15 09:13 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Micheal,

If you want to call it exaggeration, or hyperbolic, that is fine. But I assure you all of this is true. When I attended a panel discussion attended by most of Nashville's top writers and publishers, and told by a member of the "tech industry" that in the future writers would have to learn to do without royalties because they would not be there anymore",and then a question from one of Nashville's most successful writers, 'How will writers earn a living?" And told, "You Won't."
That was a fact.

Very very few songwriters earn a living anymore.

We have lost nearly 5000 professional songwriters in ten years. Songwriting deals are down to 136 from a high of 1460 in the mid 2000's. That is a fact.

Songs are earning almost nothing. Multi million "selling songs" are earning money in the thousands, not hundreds of thousands. That is a fact.

Publishing companies have closed and shifted the ways they have done business. That is a fact.

And a large percentage of the public are no longer paying for music, no matter what kinds of suggestions the industry makes. Labels still make money but they make it from many other sources that songs themselves.

Myself and members of the songwriting community have been to Congress and deal with this stuff on a daily basis. And see first hand what we are up against. That is a fact.

You can call it hyperbole all you want to. I have to see it from a little different point of view. That of having to be here in this business, dealing with the public and dealing with reality. And passing that on to people trying to get INTO this business and how to deal with a vastly changing landscape.

That is fact. Not Exaggeration. If you had seen most of the people you know, most of the companies you know, most of the way this business has operated completely change and go to mostly "free", you would view it a bit differently.

MAB

#1093436 - 10/07/15 10:57 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Uh, Well,
The lack of songwriter's not making any money is partly, (Mostly) the current economy, changes in what may be selling, and a lack of interest in what is being put out there. Last but not least we have Bernie, who is promising everybody free everything! Now how can you beat that! It is no wonder all the young folk think you should provide free music and you pay for it! If all mechanical royalties are paid, a million seller pays 91 Thousand dollars. If a Publisher is involved, more than likely, that is split in half, half to the publisher, the other half to the songwriter's.

On that note, better keep your day job and be careful what you sign! And! Don't count your chickens before they hatch!

Oh, and before I forget it, it is those dirty low down Bankers on Wall Street that are putting a kink in your songwriting! For more on that look at Cavuto's Video on the front page Fox News, under Record Release, Justice Department. Now that'll put a Burr under your saddle.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 10/07/15 11:08 AM.

Ray E. Strode
#1093454 - 10/07/15 12:49 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Mike, I'm gonna guess that guy Will Scheff isn't any good and hasn't written a Hotel California, a Desperado or a Life in the Fast Lane and never will. He's just using sophistry and tradition as a smokescreen for his lack of songwriting talent. Robert Johnson using the tune of Sitting on Top of the World for Come On In mY Kitchen is one thing. Johnson was an amazing guitarist. Even so, it does tarnish his image when you learn 95%'of his material is from other sources. Dylan came out of that and he had to leave it behind to compete in pop music. Even so, he still takes flak for using others' melodies, as he should. Dylan can rise above that because he was such a revolutionary lyricist. Scheff isn't a revolutionary anything.

If he's using Henley's song without permission, he should be sued. As for Frank Ocean, I've heard his stuff. He just hires a producer to make loops on a computer and raps crap over it. He has no talent whatsoever. Neither does West, Jay-Z, Public Enema, NWA or any of those wanks who go back forty years. They can't write worth a damn.

As a kid I was impressed by the likes of Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts, Bruce's story songs,,tunes by The Band etc. I tried to take what they did and make the lyrics even more cinematic. More plot threads. More complex rhymes and structures. Recently I've tried to mix old Tin Pan Alley pop with my own noir style. That's consciously merging my own idea with older genres. But I'm not sampling Blue Moon and then just rapping over it.

Computers haven't helped pop music much, in fact they've hurt it. A young kid today doesn't feel he has to practice 90 minutes a day after work like Muddy Waters. He can just download some samples and he's an "artist". No he's not.

Over the years since I've been on the Net people have asked me how I keep up the flow. I'm not goofing around on computers. I...f€cking...write. Frank Ocean should, too.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/07/15 12:53 PM.
#1093506 - 10/08/15 12:15 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Ps thanks Marc and Bob. I spent ten minutes trying to get rid of that capital Y and failed. By the end of my post I was aggritated and late for something else.
I was gonna PM you Marc awhile back about something else but never did. Anyway, disagreement about music is ok. People are supposed to disagree about music. That's how it progresses.

#1093512 - 10/08/15 04:04 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Hi Marc,

You are now being sensible and saying "very few" are making it, when before you said that NONE were, and that's all my gripe was. When you have the truth on your side, there's no need to exaggerate. But you made 4 "all or nothing" statements, and those are very easily proven wrong.

Well I know you feel very strongly about these things and are deeply involved in the Nashville scene, but there are probably a multitude of reasons why the numbers are way down. There's DIY culture that has crept in. There's the natural ebb and flow and cycle of trends.

But you are quoting numbers that are/were the infrastructure of Nashville's now decimated music scene? Apart from raising the fines and punishments for illegal downloading, what would you have done? And do you really think if everyone stopped illegal downloads that everything would return to the way it was?

It seems like common sense that, given the shift towards DIY production in the arts that many will be out of work. Out of work folks will shift with the times and find new work. This is the nature of change, and that's what's happening to the music industry--it's changing. You say "for the worse" and I just say "it's changing." I know how horrible and difficult it is to see all this happening up close. You are in the heart of the storm, there.

But away from Nashville and into the nooks and crannies of America and for the most part, little has changed. Most people involved in music are either playing live, or recording their own and selling at concerts. Or they have a little deal with an indie label. For most people outside of the Majors and outside of Nashville, little has changed at all. In fact, most of the hundreds of musicians I know, personally, are doing great, in this climate. They are mostly salt-of-the-earth types (not unlike yourself) who play in bands and self release an album or two a year, and are barely getting by..but are very HAPPY, nonetheless, cuz they are living the life they choose. It's all about expectations. Nashville saw a lot of money in the Garth days. It is understandable some would think things would go on like that forever.

Back on topic--to Frank Ocean. What would you propose to do? Seriously?

You may not understand it, but hip hop culture and sampling just go together. Outlawing any form of sampling would be laughable. Sampling, in and of itself, is no crime. What I do to Hotel California, in the privacy of my own home, is my business. laugh There will never be a law that says that people can't mangle audio and video to their heart's content. It would be an impossible law to enforce. Likewise, it would be hard for a court to decide that an "audio mangler" can't share with friends, for free, over the Internet. But if the sample owner says "cease and desist" then game over. Simple. And anyway, what does Frank Ocean's sampling of The Eagles have to do with Nashville's decline, anyway? Where is the connecting thread between sampling culture and "the decline of the Majors" --I don't see it.

I rarely use samples or loops in my work, but I have no problem with the idea of using them. Sampling culture is not going away, nor should it. It's woven into the fabric of most pop music at this point. It is an industry unto itself. I would lay a bet that James Brown made as much money in the last decade of his life from people sampling him than from any of his records.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 05:09 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093516 - 10/08/15 04:46 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Couch,

You are trying to sway me by discrediting Will Scheff, rather than examining what he says and seeing if it has any merit or not. I mean..wasn't it a little kid who rightly saw and said "the Emperor be nekked!" ..?

Besides, I was only quoting him to show an example of the way many people feel, artists and others as well, NOT that what he said was right or wrong or anything, but that it was typical of the beliefs of many people.

You can sue anyone for anything, but winning a case where no money was involved is tricky. Frank Ocean gave away "American Wedding" --the song in question. So where's the damages? Easier to "cease and desist" or have all copies destroyed. That is what happened to John Oswald a couple decades ago, for using Michael Jackson, and Negativeland for using U2.

But Couch, regardless of how you feel about artists who are part of sampling culture, regardless of the low place you see them in the ranks of artistry-in-general, they will continue to sell their records and have there audience, and they could probably care less that some think that what they do is artless. Personally, I find beautiful work everywhere.

What you do, Couch, is pretty solid. You are a really good writer, and your story lyrics are pretty damn cinematic. Maybe the most impressive collection of lyrics I've ever seen. But don't believe that your way of seeing things and of doing things is the only way to see and do them. Very few are so naive that they would think they could sample Blue Moon, then rap over it and call it a finished song. You are oversimplifying and exaggerating to make a point. There's a lot that goes into making records that involve samples.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 04:52 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093518 - 10/08/15 11:23 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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Much of what is being discussed here is the result of jobs being replaced by technology. Compare a songwriter and a high priced recording studio with a ton of studio musicians to a secretary typing reports on a typewriter.....word processing by the writer has put most secretaries and typists out of business. Similarly, a pop song is produced by one guy making a beat on his computer, plus the vocalists. And a handful of songwriters can churn out the crappy lyrics to every pop song in the world (I am referring to the Rihanna, Beyonce school of pop, not the great stuff that never hits the airwaves).


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1093522 - 10/08/15 12:24 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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The fact that you have to ask "What is the damage" shows the problem.

MAB

#1093545 - 10/08/15 04:49 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Mike, I'm not trying to sway you, I'm trying to conclusively prove you wrong, haha. I not only discredited Sheff's songwriting(which you didn't contradict), I used my own example of taking tradition and melding it with my own methods to create something new.

It's irrelevant whether Ocean profited from sampling Henley's property. If I plant a tree on my ranch, water it and grow it and then a trespasser steals a branch, writes a dumb ass poem on it and then gives it to charity...he's still a THIEF. he took my property without permission. Something I grew and tended to myself.

The reason why Ocean does this is because he has no creative musical talent of his own. Zero. Nada. Nothing.

Sampling being a big part of hip hop culture is no justification. All it means is that hip hop stands on a very weak foundation, if not an immoral one. I first heard rap when I was 15...it consisted of some moron talking dirty over what I later realized was a drum machine and some loops. That was 1981. I wasn't any more impressed with Run DMC rapping BS over a sample of Walk This Way. I've seen that described by Rolling Stone as a milestone in hip hop. Wow. Maybe I'll write a really bad poem over the Van Gogh print in my living room so Rolling Stone will call it a milestone in art. I had the pleasure of seeing some idiot named Busta Rhymes praised recently so I had a listen. It was kindergarten lyrics rapped over a sample of Bernard Hermann's theme for Psycho. So, I'm not simplifying what rappers do. They may use multiple layers of samples, loops and drum programs but it still complete and utter dogsh!t.

I'm sure it galls Henley that Rolling Stone slammed The Eagles back in the 70s only to praise talentless rappers today for sampling his extremely well crafted, timeless songs. Rap has been around nearly forty years and has not progressed beyond really bad writers yelling profanity over computers. Frank Ocean has no talent whatsoever and rap is worthless trash.

#1093548 - 10/08/15 05:15 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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AMEN MR. COUCH GROUCH. You are exactly right on this. Thank you for a great perspective.

MAB

#1093559 - 10/08/15 05:57 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Marc, I ask "where's the damages" rhetorically. This is what needs to be proven. I am asking as a judge would. You are innocent until proven guilty. Damages need to be proven. To use another's work in your own is not in and of itself damaging anyone. That involves intent, distribution, etc. So you think it is not more difficult to prove damages when no money is involved?

Couch, A musical recording possessed by millions everywhere around the world is not the same thing as a tree planted in a particular garden on a particular ranch. A better analogy would be to clone several million replicas of that tree and sell them/give them to people who put them in their gardens, behind their homes. Then tell them they can't monkey with the tree, cuz it's intellectual property. Guaranteed--many trees end up with monograms carved in somewhere. It's human nature. And when you create laws that defy it, it is a hard road. Just ask prohibition.

I understand your feelings about rap and hip hop. They are low on your totem pole of creativity, I get it. But your pronouncement that rap is worthless trash is subjective and invective.

To me this is all "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street." Fear and loathing about what you don't really understand. It's easy to hate a man who takes anothers' song and puts his own words on it, then calls it his own. If hip hop culture were this single image, then perhaps your hate would be justified. But it's not. It's not the dominant trait by a longshot. It's a stereotype.

For me, rap is a tree branch of spoken poetry, not unlike what Ferlinghetti and Rexroth were doing over jazz. Many rappers cite the Last Poets and Gil Scott-Heron as their grand daddies. Rap may be an inferior music, but it's not an inferior poetry. There's good and bad in rap, like anything else.

Millions like a style of music that for the most part I don't, but to me, it's all part of the bigger picture..it's a big stew..and there's good and bad in every kind of music..with some, perhaps, the good is harder to find..but that may be more due to my cultural background and other factors, as opposed to it being inferior as an art. Millions like it. Give them that. Let them be, let them like what they want to like, and if you don't think it sounds a little schoolboy-ish to claim "the musical styles I like are superior to yours.." ..well..

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 06:05 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093560 - 10/08/15 06:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Mike, there are many copies of Hotel California but only ONE composition, which Henley is part owner of. No one has a right to publicly use it without his permission. Period. Just because I post a lyric I wrote on multiple sites, it's one work and I don't want someone using any part of it without my consent, as is my right as its author.

Rap is really bad. I've never heard a single rap track I respect. And considering its reliance on the rankest language possible to disguise its writers' lack of talent, saying so is no worse than saying pornographic movies are poorly written, directed and acted and only appeal to the lowest denominator.

And I've seen Gil Scott Heron's stuff. The revolution won't keep me awake.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/08/15 06:39 PM.
#1093562 - 10/08/15 06:53 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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And all I am saying is that enforcing that is impossible, except on a case-by-case basis. Human nature always wins.

What would you propose be done? Make files impenetrable? They tried that. Didn't work. Monitor people for music file tampering? laugh Are you listening Charlie Brooker, here's a plot for a new Black Mirror episode!

A minority of artists will always see all sound and images as mold-able clay for theirs to use. If they go public, certainly it is best to ask permission. But in my own home, and for my friends? I would love to see this Black Mirror episode!

It only becomes an issue when said "questionable" work enters the public eye. Then damages can be proven.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 07:02 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093563 - 10/08/15 07:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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And a minority of people will always steal to support themselves. Criminalize their behavior and punish it. And don't be shy about calling out such "artists" for their lack of talent. Amen Henley.

#1093564 - 10/08/15 07:02 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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"Dear..are you there..yeah..yeah..in jail..I know..what did I do? I took Hotel California, and sped it up, removed the vocal, put a didgeridoo on top..I know I know..I was thinking "Hotel Perth" and it was sounding pretty good..and I didn't post it on line or anything..but then seven cops swooped in, like the National Guard, can you believe it? I know..I am in here with all these nerdy guys..I'm gonna die..please come bail me out!!"


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093565 - 10/08/15 07:20 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
And a minority of people will always steal to support themselves. Criminalize their behavior and punish it. And don't be shy about calling out such "artists" for their lack of talent. Amen Henley.


Couch,

Using someone's work in your own has it's place and is even protected by law in certain kinds of cases.

Like you say, it's about the composition, not the millions of files. If I use a mashed up copy, a file of Hotel California in a work of mine, you may say I "stole it" --but Henley still owns the composition. What has been stolen? Appropriated use without the author's approval, yes. Outright theft of someone's music? Harder to agree with that.

To use someone else's work, depending on the wherefore and why, can indeed be highly unethical, but it is not always, or even predominantly, the case. Fair use, for one.

The majority of bands and artists big enough to be in the public eye are getting their samples "cleared" first so everybody's happy.

So where are we disagreeing?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/08/15 07:23 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093570 - 10/08/15 08:39 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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I think Frank Ocean is a talentless toad and should be sued into bankruptcy for using Henley's work without permission. If you agree with that, we're not disagreeing, haha. Sampling without permission is theft, even if no material property is appropriated.

I'm just repeating myself now. My case has been made. Frank Ocean should learn to write his own songs or hire a band and cover others' songs, giving full credit to the writers. Using computers to sample others' recordings is theft and betrays a complete lack of talent. It's unethical, plain and simple.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/08/15 08:43 PM.
#1093573 - 10/08/15 09:13 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Sampling without permission is theft.


No Couch, that is not always the case. Most of the sampling without permission is not theft. Most of it is done at home, for fun, and shared with friends, and it's totally legal. So is mangling said audio beyond recognition, and even distributing that.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/permission-sampled-music-sample-clearance-30165.html

I quote:

"

If you use samples in your commercially released music, you should get legal permission. The process of getting permission from the owners of the sampled music is referred to as "sample clearance." Failure to get the proper permission could lead to serious consequences: lawsuits or the inability to distribute your music to the public.

When Sample Clearance Is Required

In general, sample clearance is required only if you plan to make copies of your music and distribute the copies to the public. (italics mine)

Sample clearance is generally not required if:

You are just using the sampled music at home. (italics mine)

You are using the sample in live shows. This is because, usually, you are not making copies and the owner of the venue pays the blanket license fees to performing rights organizations such as Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI) or American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers (ASCAP).

You plan to distribute copies to the public but meet one of the following: (1) an average listener would not notice the similarities between your end product and the sample, or (2) your use of the sample falls under the "fair use" doctrine. For more information on these..

"


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/09/15 05:45 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093605 - 10/09/15 03:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
This is something that has been happening all too much over the past few years. It is the preponderance of people, particularly rappers, who simply sample existing songs and put their own lyrics on them. (If that is what you want to call them). They don't respect intellectual property in the least and think that anything is interactive playthings.

This article is about the Eagles Don Henley and a rapper named Frank Ocean, who simply took the existing music tracks, guitars, bass, drums, everything, on the song HOTEL CALIFORNIA, and put his own rap lyrics to it. Then got pissed off when they told him that he couldn't do that. Basically told them to go "S***W themselves.

We are seeing this more and more with younger artists and writers, who simply don't even see anything wrong with doing whatever they want to with music. I recently had a several post argument on another site, about just "taking existing songs and putting his lyrics to them." He could not see any problem whatsoever with it.

When people are so concerned with copyrights, especially on songs that usually go NOWHERE, this is something they need to be concerned with. Not that someone is going to steal their idea. That someone is going to take their TRACKS, their creative work, their intellectual property, and just use it for their own uses. If you go to YOU TUBE you will see hundreds of thousands of people using their own slideshows, videos, etc, and using hit songs for their own use with no licencing, no thought to anything other than what they want to use it for.

Just another fact in the "free music" era we are living in. People stopped respecting anything a long time ago. Why I have said so many times, not to get too concerned about making any money at this. Not only can you no longer make money, you might just find that once you put something "out there" you may not even own it any more.

The story:
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/10/02/don-henley-calls-frank-ocean-a-talentless-little-prick-kanye/21244024/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D1686540443

MAB


YouTube itself is the biggest copyright violator in history but they are too big and powerful to stop or fight... it's sad really.... the Gov is TERRIFIED of Google and will let them do ANYTHING they please without restraint.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#1093620 - 10/09/15 08:29 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney

YouTube itself is the biggest copyright violator in history but they are too big and powerful to stop or fight... it's sad really.... the Gov is TERRIFIED of Google and will let them do ANYTHING they please without restraint.


But thanks to Google, we can now "self-police" and see who is doing "what" to our music, who is defiling our files.

In vintage forms of theft, hasn't it always been up to the victims to report the theft? No different now, and now because of these same "big violators" we can actually know, pretty fast, who is stealing from whom.

What are some solutions?

We've been talking about two entirely different things, here. The practice of using UN-authoriized samples in ones' own audio track--that's one. The other is the practice of uploading/downloading songs and albums by current artists, either the "legal" youtube way (notice the quotes) or in the black market.

As to the sampling..there will always be a small percentage that are outright thieves, but most samples that are used without permission are used without hurting anyone. That some folks don't see the difference between selling multiple copies of a piece with stolen samples, and someone who creates something at home, with only the intention of having fun exploring the medium of audio manipulation and playing it for friends, may have more to do with their cultural backgrounds than any truths about the nature of "intellectual property."

Someone posted a version of Steve Reich's "Music For 18 Musicians" that he had slowed down I think to 1/100th of it's original speed, and posted that. If Steve Reich cared, he'd have had it removed. But the thing is, most modern classical composers know the value of experiment. It can lead you places you wouldn't get to, in a normal, day-to-day, creative routine. The process of slowing the piece down so greatly also transformed the piece into something unrecognizable as "Music For 18 Musicians" --into something completely different--only recognizable as Reich's composition if you speed the audio back up. Under current copyright (sampling) law, this is not theft. "Transforming beyond recognition to average listeners" is not a violation of copyright, as to the current law.

There are many reasons why people use and manipulate audio, most are benign. Those that actually make money off of stolen samples are easily found out. Those who post (works with stolen samples) to youtube and friends for fun can always be asked to 'cease and desist.'

As to this other, entirely different practice of uploading/downloading albums and entire catalogs of current artists and making them available to listen to on youtube and other places--it's easy to see how these "listens" take away from physical sales or Itune sales--but it's interesting more artists don't block this practice like Prince does..

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/10/15 05:08 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093662 - 10/10/15 04:31 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Raleigh, ya'll
I'm gonna chime in again, with nothing to offer on the "business side", because that's not my forte, nor my concern for the last decade.

Oh, man, this is gonna ramble, but I'll bring it back to a Woody Guthrie quote that Michael's first post reminded me of.

I realized around 2002 that I'd missed the bus. But my bus was based on a model that was pulling out of the station about a decade earlier. MAB, I believe it was you who told of a night back in the '90's when someone said something about some thing called the "internet"???

Anyone who was hoping to make a living in music should have realized that the internet-bus was gonna bust up the $$$-flow-model..And that was in the mid-90's!!!!

MAB's quote, to me, seems like one of those very few seminal conversational moments, when someone says something, and no one really understands the eventual impact.

I had one of those moments, back in 1981, TOTALLY UNRELATED TO MUSIC...A group of us were out to dinner. One of us was a nurse(Her name was, and probably still is, Rhonda). We were talking about STD's, don't ask me why, and how widespread herpes was becoming, in a kind of light-hearted way.

And Rhonda said: There's something new coming out of Africa that is going to make everyone forget about herpes.

That was the first I'd heard of it, but certainly wasn't the last....

Ok, back to music and the internet & theft & etc and the quote that Michael reminded me of, regarding what I think this thread is addressing regarding what we consider "Intellectual property"...And oh, my, I bet the lawyers have made a fortune off of that term...

Michael mentioned the old "Folk Music" tradition of mixing and matching(forgive my paraphrase), and it is absolutely true.

He also mentioned that the biggest "profiteers" off of other people's creative works were the record companies in the 50's and 60's...I don't have to paraphrase, because good heavens above, artists got screwed!!!!

All right, before I ramble too much, here is the Woody Guthrie quote:

I just write down the words as fast as I can get 'em, and then find a melody that's been proven to be popular.

Someone once pointed out to Woody that he'd just written another song with the melody of "Irene Goodnight", and Woody said "Damn, I knew I'd heard it somewhere before"...The song was "Ramblin' 'round".

But it wasn't considered "theft" back then. It was tradition. In order to sue someone for theft, you'd have to bring lawyers in, and there goes everyone's fun and any profits.

Yes, times have changed since 1950...But with the internet, times change every other hour.

Just sayin'...

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1093701 - 10/11/15 04:32 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Midnight,

It was me, talking about a "high level Panel discussion" I attended around 1997 or 98'. There were around 100 of the top writers and publishers in a big conference room, I believe at BMI headquarters. At the time I was there representing the SONGWRITER'S GUILD, where I was a member and on one of the advisory panels. It was kind of a "Who's who" meeting, with enormously successful writers and the top money makers. On the Dias, was a couple of record company presidents, representatives of ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, NSAI, some politicians, and many other interested bystanders.

Also on the dias were two members of the "Tech" world, I believe one was from Los Angeles, one from New York. They were talking about this new thing called the "Internet" and how it was going to affect the business. Many were very optimistic, saying that we were going to be able to get our music out "all over the world, and open up endless new markets."

But the tech guys were like Doctors giving out Cancer diagnosis, that more or less, our business was on life support and was going to change forever. It got very tense a few times, with the writers and publishers getting very testy about collections and how things were going to be regulated.

At one point, One of the tech guys said "In the future, songwriters are going to have to get used to doing without royalties because they won't be there." The whole room got very quiet and then, one of the absolute top writers who was sitting about three feet from me, raised his hand and said "How will writers make a living?"

The tech guy, just very matter of factly said, "YOU WON'T."

That has been the way ever since. Right after that, you started to see the publishers and hit writers becoming artist developers. Outside cuts became a thing of the past, and everyone circled their wagons. Now, artists are developed long before anyone on the outside even know they exist. American Idol developed the "360 Degree Deal" giving record labels and producers percentages of an artist's touring, merchandising, endorsements and eliminated anyone not in those inner circles any access whatsoever.

And the money dissapeared, as did publishers, who became "song pluggers" (film and television placement companies)and basically one scheme or scam after another, taking money from the naive songwriters, and every songwriter web site ending up with endless threads that all started "Has anyone ever dealt with..." And most of the record companies, legitimate publishers, outside the majors all dried up and closed.

Writing deals died as each individual song paid less and less money. And the Internet built and built, putting millions of people and billions of songs into the pipeline, mediocrity, ruled, and led us to what we are talking about here, simply taking someone else's work, that they paid for, spent time and emotional capital to build, and someone who has no relation to that song, just coming in and taking whatever they want. "Interactive playthings" as Henley said.

And the fact that many people see nothing wrong with it at all and justify pretty much anything is the result.

You see, I've heard the "what's the harm" comments before. I heard it in the 90's, when college students complained about the costs of records or getting "one or two songs they liked on an album. So they simply downloaded it for free. What was the harm?" All those rock stars were rich."

When they started ripping files and file sharing with all their friends, who forward that along with thousands of THEIR friends who sent it out to hundreds of thousands of THEIR friends. They all said "What's the harm?"

I heard it when people like "Napster" and Kazza started. "What was the harm in giving people what they wanted?" I heard it with the general public who got what they wanted as long as they didn't have to pay for it. "What was the harm?" When they had "Subscription services that charged very little money but paid almost nothing to writers.

I heard it from Rappers, as they simply sampled other people's works and said "What's the harm?"

I heard it as the talent level of writing and performing declined and everything sounded the same. "What was the harm?"

Now I hear it when one person or another, simply steals someone else's work, watches their fame grow, pushing their merchandise and product endorsements go up, their ability to get higher ticket prices and claim "No money changed hands, so what's the harm?" And they are glorified for their inventiveness.

And I want to see what happens when some existing song is sampled and ripped off, and someone writes lyrics glorifying Nazi's or "defaming the prophet Mohammed" and it goes up getting millions of downloads on the Internet, and someone who had the "Original song that was ripped off" is held responsible and attacked, killed, their houses or businesses destroyed." Don't think that can happen? Ask the families of Theo Van Gogh.

I see NOTHING good that happens from any of this. It can be said I am overreacting, and just exaggerating, and maybe so. But I have watched all this coming like a slow motion train wreck for about 20 years, and saw a lot of these things coming and tried to warn people. I have been pretty right so far, and I think I will be right in the future. If not, "what's the harm?"

See, I look at larger aspects on the culture, on society. I have to deal in the real world on this stuff and watch how we are all affected.

Sometimes it SUCKS to be right.

MAB

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 10/11/15 04:40 AM.
#1093730 - 10/11/15 08:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc,

You can very eloquent and persuasive. You have lived this and your words are impassioned and express many truths, and I respect you and hope my talking is not upsetting to you.

I fear that because I want to add footnotes and qualifications into your arguments that you are grouping me into the "many people see nothing wrong with it at all and justify pretty much anything is the result" when the fact is that I agree that illegal downloading does indeed take away from sales. But you kind of slid that into an argument about what Frank Ocean did, which was something else entirely, and then it became about this more general topic of how all things Internet have unraveled the music industry. Okay..that's fine..

But once in a while, it would be nice to hear some solutions. Otherwise, when you talk about a conference that predicted how The Internet would ruin the music business, and then do not pose any solutions, it sounds like you are tacitly saying that the Internet, as it is, needs to be killed or at least changed greatly..and then here's where I get lost--cuz this is just an assumption on my part--I'm assuming that you think that if the Internet was changed greatly, that things might go back to how they were, before the Internet. Are these your feelings? I have to guess, because you seem to want to dwell more on how bad things are, which is fine. But it would be nice to know if that's a kind of death lament, or if behind your lament, you had some ideas about how to change things. That would be rather refreshing.

Sincerely,

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/11/15 08:17 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093734 - 10/11/15 08:45 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Micheal,

I'm sorry. I realize we jump around a lot on things like this and often I am on three or four threads on different sites all at the same time, so I sometimes get confused about where I am on all of them.Many of them discuss the same subjects at different times or when something in a current event might happen.

My total feelings are not all negative or all positive. I am a realist and have to deal with things the way they are and not how I would like them to be, what I think is fair or correct.

The solutions have been going on for a while. After the time I was talking about, record companies, publishers, and the like changed the way they did business and became one stop artist developers. Each hit writer, each publisher, etc. found and developed their own acts, working more on "branding" than any one part. This was touring, merchandising, endorsements, etc. When the money on songs themselves, they shifted the way they did business, focusing on the other aspects of an artists career.
That was the solution there. Circle the wagons, do everything yourself, shut out anything on the outside of your circles.

I've done that myself in my own business and my instruction of others. I shifted my personal applications to teaching and behind the scenes elements of music although I still write songs, still do the same thing. Just shifted the way I am paid. It is up front instead of waiting for a "back end" that doesn't come.

I suggest the same thing to all writers and have done so here dozens of times. Quit thinking about Nashville, Los Angeles and New York. Quit trying to worry about publishers, get with film and television placement agencies and all the things that the Internet promises success with. More of the Brian model of finding local people and promoting them. Stop trying to pitch songs to nameless faceless people and develop a real presence in your community and region, getting practical application, not expecting some "good publishing or management fairy to annoint your songs. Develop your own YOU TUBE and other channels. Do more things yourself and stop expecting an overall big payoff.

Don't expect any more "home runs" and deal with incrementalism. Don't over expect. Work hard at what you do, but stop expecting anyone to come in and do things for you. They won't.

The Frank Ocean situation, sampling, illegal downloading, file sharing, loss of overall money, is not going to stop. It is here. It is best to understand it and be able to not get caught up when it happens. It means you no longer spend a lot of money on demos, trying to get them into some song placement service from someone you don't know and spend money on THEM.

Expect legal issues to cloud what all of this means. Expect lawsuits to clog up the works and do no good. Expect no protection on songs and being able to have much in the way of protection.

Most importantly, do it for the LOVE of creation. Be who you are and do things that mean something to you. Touch people's lives and not worry so much about what the business does. Most of this, about 85% you have absolutely no control over, so don't get too caught up in it.

Help other people achieve their goals and hopefully yours will be achieved at the same time. There are sharks, crooks, schemes and scams. Always have been and always will be. Just try to avoid the damage they can do.

Those would be my solutions. I can;t do a thing about Frank Ocean or any one with that mind set. But I can resolve that I WON'T ever do what he or many others have done. I won't sample, I won't illegally download, I won't take the easy route and just be lazy.

I come to things like this more as an observer as anything else.I don't so much "get upset", as see it, comment on it and then try to see where to avoid it. People are consistentley trying to find out where the business is going, what the future looks like. You can't tell what is going to happen, but you can learn a lot about it by paying attention to what has happened in the past.

Those would be my solutions.

MAB

#1093735 - 10/11/15 09:39 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc,

So it sounds like you do accept the way things are, albeit with many reservations, and are with the mainstream in your solutions, which is to take this new reality for what it is and make the best of it. This is a healthy, realistic approach and I am in agreement with you.

I personally would go a little further and say that many of these things were inevitable, and some are even good things, and all the Internet did was speed things up a bit. I believe the Majors, for years, had too much power and had become pretty bloated, before the Internet.

One thing that legal issues do, on the side, is to shed some light on such obscure ideas such as "intellectual property" which as a concept seems pretty clear until we look closely, and then it all falls apart, or at least becomes so complicated as to need copious footnotes and qualifications. I mean, each new medium alters the definition somewhat. Sheet music, then recordings, then Internet--each of these have modified its meaning--and we are just playing catch-up, sometimes using an outdated perception of what "intellectual property" is, in this postmodern world.

It's interesting that what Frank Ocean did gets called "theft" when he took a piece everybody knows and used it, and unless he's really stupid, knew that there would be some commotion over this. After all, The Biz Markie vs Gilbert O'Sullivan case is a salient part of rap's ancient history.

It's more "theft" to me, when a more vulnerable artist with more obscure sound bytes gets sampled and then not credited. That puts the onus on the artist to use sites that do this kind of policing, and that's a lot of work, if you just want to be a creative type.

What Ocean did seems more like an act of defiance and a crafty postmodern publicity stunt--he was challenging our perception of "intellectual property" --knowing it would get attention but maybe not knowing it would be an "epic fail" as to that challenge. In this way, it's not so different from modern art (music, plays, etc.) that "color outside the lines" and likewise challenge us--get us to question the nature of art and (in this case) "intellectual property" and maybe come to a new understanding.

Thank you for spelling out your solutions, etc. At the root is to have a love for what we do. I couldn't agree more, but it would be a tragedy if this wasn't the case, before. Money should never be the reason why we choose a career, and if more were apt to, before, when there was more money spread around, well..maybe that's one more reason for me to temper my feelings about the way things are now.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/11/15 10:17 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093738 - 10/11/15 11:32 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Michael,

I think we are on the same page. Music is about ADAPTATION, not as much as CHANGE. It all changes, and some things come around in giant circles. When I had mentioned that "No one is making money" I also meant to include a caveat, that there are always people who do make money. There are always people who find a way. There are always innovators.

My problem on the entire Sampling and creative theft is that I just think it is total intellectual and creative laziness. And Frank Ocean's stunt DID work. He got publicity, his ticket sales rise, his "branding" rises,and he gets the reputation for "Sticking it to the rich rock star."

But it is what it is. As you say, I have accepted the way things are, as I always have. When I was an artist, I did everything I could in that capacity. When I got too old for that, I switched to writing, having publishing deals, getting cuts, etc. But when the money drained out of that (AND I WAS ASKED) I turned my attention to teaching and instructing others. Didn't want to do that, just came my way and I adapted. I'm fortunate that people seek me out and ask and pay for my services. Many of my contemporaries, aren't that lucky.

I will always do the same. Hope you are well. Good discussion.

MAB

#1093750 - 10/12/15 10:57 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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We are in the "me first" generation that figures I should have what I want when I want it and take what I can regardless of who owns it. Morals are not what they use to be. Music is so easy to steal, so why not. Shop lifting intellectual property is so much safer than shop lifting actual items from stores, less chance of getting caught or punished. We've always had white collar crime and blue collar crime, now we have no collar crime, getting bolder all the time and younger all the time. How can todays parents teach their children not to steal, especially music, when they grew up doing the same thing, they would have to admit what they did was wrong.

#1093782 - 10/12/15 10:02 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Of course Ocean knew he'd be caught. That's the entire point. Neither he nor his audience care about authenticity. Fame and money are the goals. That's like saying why would Pamela Anderson film that sex tape when she knew it might get out. Landsakes alive! Won't her fans be offended? No...she has no talent and cheap stunts are her bread and butter. Ocean...has...no...talent. or shame. Fame is the end in and of itself.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/12/15 10:05 PM.
#1093806 - 10/13/15 11:32 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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It's no coincidence Henley is taking up this fight, after he was the one who wrote “I saw a dead head sticker on a Cadillac said you can never look back”

Like Michael writes there's been traditions in folk music ect. Long before capitalism developed in 17th century France, music has been part of folklore storytelling traditions, where people learned songs from people they knew, and kept them alive by learning them, performing them, and teach them to the next generations.

But, in the last century, music became a way out of the rut for many people. Music enabled them to make a living in a world that didn't care about their rights. That's the perspective we're coming from now. Rap came out as a unique voice from urban cultures, country used to be rural, but now is more for the middle class and up, if you listen to the content of many lyrics.

So, this story is about a college boy (Henley) and a guy who had to hustle to get by (Ocean), so it's pretty complex. Ocean is still the street hustler, and Henley is standing on his formal rights in the system.

That makes two sides to sympathize with, depending on your own history, understanding and outlook.


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#1093891 - 10/14/15 02:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Kolstad]  
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"Like Michael writes there's been traditions in folk music ect. Long before capitalism developed in 17th century France, music has been part of folklore storytelling traditions, where people learned songs from people they knew, and kept them alive by learning them, performing them, and teach them to the next generations."

Kolstead, I'm sorry but I really just can't accept that definition in this discussion because it is two very different things. There are really not TWO sides on this. In the past of music, very true, melodies, and songs were passed down through oral traditions from one generation to the next. The Star Spangeled Banner, the American National Anthem evolved from an English drinking song.

That tradition ended when copyright laws were passed, and while their might have been a "traditional melody", there was someone finally credited with presenting that. Mother Maybelle Carter did not invent "The Wildwood Flower" in country music, but was creditited with the creation of it in the modern era.

That is absolutely not what is happening here. This is the outright THEFT (there is no other term for it) of existing MUSIC TRACKS to develop a derivative work with NO PERMISSION at all. That is theft.

HOTEL CALIFORNIA was created over a period of years by Don Felder, who recorded the tracks on a 4 track reel to reel. This was brought to Don Henley and Glen Frey who wrote the lyrics in late 1975. That was recorded over a period of time spending probably over a million dollars to develop, record, package and promote. It was then presented for years with the buying public. Millions were spent in it's development and millions were made in it's presentation.

At NO TIME WHATSOEVER can I find Frank Ocean's name among the track sheet, or the investor list of that song. I am unaware of any of those millions that Frank Ocean paid for. I am unaware of his involvement or invitation from the creators of that song AND THOSE EXACT MUSICAL TRACKS. This is not BORROWING. This is complete theft.

Now as point of reference, the rap and hip hop culture were created from this. The first crossover commercial rap song was "rapper's Delight" in 1977, which was an existing drum and bass loop from the band "QUEEN", whose song "ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST." That became "RAPPERS DELIGHT" which then became "GOOD TIMES" and many songs from the disco, rap and early hip hop eras. Recyling and reusing in that format is standard and should have been dealt with early, but was not.

This is outright theft AGAINST THE COPYRIGHT OWNER with permission being refused and yet used anyway. And this is illegal in any way shape and form. You see I don't do the "awe let the poor young guy be able to do it." Doesn't wash with me. Either in shoplifting, robbery, rape or murder. I don't excuse nor sympathize with it in any way shape and form.

But for the form of this subject, it is pretty black and white, not grey or negotiable. It is THEFT. And in my opinion, if allowed to stand unchallenged will be the end of all copyrights and intellectual property protection at all. That is why it has to be addressed and stopped.

As Michael would say "What are the SOLUTIONS?" On this, you do not allow it. Period. You stop it now and don't allow the conversation to be adapted or diminished. Now that might not happen. Common sense seemingly has left a lot of people and nothing seems to be any standards whatsoever and that might be what is to come.
But for myself, I don't allow it, don't accept it and I rather enjoy watching lawbreakers being called out, challenged,fined and if nessasary jailed. There is a price to be paid.

But for this. No, it's not BORROWING. Period. It is theft.

End of story.

MAB

#1093894 - 10/14/15 02:51 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Copyright Predates the U.S. Constitution. You can Google the STATUTE OF ANNE for a better look. Maybe some people are not aware of Copyright and other protections for intellectual property but it is in the Constitution.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 10/14/15 02:53 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1093895 - 10/14/15 02:55 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Very correct. I was speaking more in terms of RECORDINGS, as it pertains to this particular issue. But you are correct, copyright protections do predate the constitution. More the reason to observe them now.

M

#1094148 - 10/19/15 12:20 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Raleigh, ya'll
Ya see, Marc, your passion and reasoning and explanations in this thread, are why I hope you never die!!!!

An absolutely fascinating, and enlightening, conversation!

Well done, to everyone involved....But that's just my humble opinion.

Thanks!

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1094160 - 10/19/15 07:10 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Actual recordings that are under copyright and used without consent can certainly be considered theft. But the crime is in the "distributing of multiple copies," and the making money and I suppose in the potential "injury" of having "an average listener" think a recording is someone's property when it's really not..when it's actually someone elses. But in the Frank Ocean case no money was made on that project, and the seventeen people that may have thought Frank Ocean wrote that kickin' background track have probably now been corrected. I am sure The Eagles felt little injury, in this last regard. It's also hard to call what Ocean did "theft," since something done that big lights up a room--and a theft in broad daylight with everybody watching is more like "making a statement" and a kind of absurdist or confrontational theater, since it has absolutely no chance of otherwise succeeding as a perpetrated theft..

This is not to say that there aren't a lot of folks using peoples stuff without asking and getting away with it. Why do I suddenly feel like I'm in the middle of a George Carlin routine? Anyway, there is a lot of real theft in show business, but what Ocean did just doesn't measure up by my definition.

But that's where I personally draw the line. If you are not distributing multiple copies or making money on it or making people believe an audio track is yours by a sin of omission, then I think a person should feel free to do what he wants with an audio recording that he has obtained legally. We buy a painting and we take it home..there's no law against defacing or adding to or erasing or getting interactive with it--sometimes it's even called art. Check your Marcel Duchamp.. There is no law that says "you are only purchasing the rights to look at this and hang it in your room." Likewise with audio recordings. Aural canvases, and there's no law that says "If you fold, spindle, or mutilate these recordings you have purchased, you may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment, etc..." I find it interesting that some have a hard time with this idea. When the law decides to intervene and completely and lastingly define how we are to use media, art, etc., well..then I would fear that we would be in big trouble.

If you ever watched the TV series "The Wire" you may have come away with the feeling that city life is just doomed to fail, because everybody wants a piece of a pie that is just never big enough. SO if I was "The Mayor" and had to decide where to "throw the money" to create change, I'd start with hate crimes and serial killers and big drug cartels and whoa let's not forget education..you feel me? To me, sample theft is a crime, but being realistic, it polices itself to a good extent. Major offenders are found out because they're major. Let the copyright office and/or BMI and ASCAP and interested record labels butterfly into some newfangled pro-active policing organizations that look after their clients and vigilantly seek out those who use samples illegally. That should be part of what their future job entails, and I'd be all for it.

And if there are those that insist it's ALL theft, I would add perhaps so, but some are rather innocuous forms of it. Let's be realistic. It's human nature, and an artist's nature to experiment. The savvy ones do it without breaking any laws.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/19/15 07:25 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094191 - 10/19/15 02:21 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Micheal,

I'm sorry, the "making no money" argument is universal silliness. First of all, it was downloaded over 800,000 times. His profile went sky high. His appearances exploded. He sells merchandise with his version of the song. He still does the song live. His "brand" was enhanced by it all. That is the misleading part about all of this. If there is not a "direct" correlation with the actual song (which is the problem with ALL MUSIC NOW, it is not DIRECTLY selling much of anything. It is drawing attention to an artists BRAND.) there is an INDIRECT correlation. And many many more than the "17 people" became aware of him through this.

You see, I just reject the entire premise of "There was no money so who was harmed?" That is the same things said by the first down loaders in the 90's. That was the same thing said by PIRATE BAY" in Sweden. That is the exact same argument made by anyone who simply views everything in terms of grey.

Sorry, just doesn't wash with me. Not going to ever. Using anyone's material without permission for commercial gain, (and if it was not for commercial gain WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?)is THEFT. Sorry, just not going to waver on that one. "USING EXISTING RECORDINGS of other people's work has nothing to do with EXPERIMENTATION. Nothing at all, nada. Sorry. NOPE. Doing things that YOU create, fail, try again, fail again, and finally get right, is EXPERIMENTING. Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period. No grey area at all.

I've said about all I'm going to on this one. We're on different sides, period. The only thing I can say to you is it WILL affect you, actually already has. If you ever try to play songs for a publisher and they "won't accept unsolicited material", if you ever try to get your songs to someone who is a song plugger or film and television libraries, if you ever have difficulty getting songs past just yourself, it is affecting you already. You just don't see it.
It is not the only reason, but just one more of many reasons that have led to an absolute confused industry. It affects everyone.

MAB

#1094206 - 10/19/15 08:12 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc,

You present a convincing argument concerning Ocean. I underestimate the "upped his brand" aspect. But if upping one's brand can happen simply by stealing and getting caught and paying whatever one must pay (injuries) for not doing things through legal channels, what is to stop self professed gangstas from doing this, other than financial penalties, which they may consider negligible, considering the "up" in profile which they get in return? It's an exploitation of a system that cannot prevent this, and a big part of why they call themselves gangstas.

You say "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period."

Then little Sally committed a crime when she cut up Teen Vogue and made a collage out of the ads and posted it on the refrigerator, and Sally turned in her brother Joey for slowing down "Smoke On the Water" so he could learn the famous riff, and dad is a major offender for using (legal) software to remove vocals from Madonna records, cuz his wife gets a kick out of it when he sings "Like A Virgin" to her, in the car on the way home from the grocery store.

You say "Using anyone's material without permission for commercial gain, (and if it was not for commercial gain WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?)is THEFT."

Specifically, this part: "and if not for commercial gain, why do it in the first place" I believe to be a rather shortsighted statement. You are, in blanket fashion, saying there are absolutely NO reasons to use someone's recording without permission other than for commercial reasons, when in truth, I could name thousands and still not mention "fair use."

By and large, commercial gain is not the main reason why most people interact with existing art (music, paintings, etc.). You just don't hear about them because they are not breaking any laws cuz they are not distributing it to the masses. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that there are not a bazillion righteous reasons people "misuse" art. Even a rapper who rips various recordings for his own "music" but just does it for "fun" is not committing a crime, in the eyes of the law. You want to treat recordings like they are some sacrosanct thing, period, and they are NOT. They are just recordings, from ABBA, all the way down to ZZ Top. And if you take ABBA vocals off their recordings and remove the vocals from ZZ Top records, so as to put ABBA on top, well that's one more way people use samples--creating "mash-ups" (without permission) --and if I simply play it for friends, no law has been broken. It is simply not theft in the eyes of the law.

It sounds like you want the law to treat audio recordings like software, which is kind of ironic, coming from you. The law simply does not say you cannot alter a recording or use any part or all of it, even--it says do whatever you want at home. That is the law, period. You may feel free to argue how you think theft in these regards should be defined. I am simply telling you how it is.

If you want audio recordings to be made inviolate and untouchable (outside of just listening), then make them tamper proof and don't let people keep them en masse in their homes and PCs where they can "touch" and "violate" them! But that's never gonna happen, and not what anyone really wants to happen, either.

If ANY use of recordings (other than listening) is theft, is a crime, then so is any use of visual images and moving images. But lo, I can feel free to buy prints of modern art and make collages with them if I just want to hang them at home, or show friends over the internet. So it goes with aural canvases--audio recordings.

If you carry your thoughts out to the end, you end up with an extremely brittle police state, where innocuous uses of media are verboten. I would love to see this explored in science-fiction. It would be interesting, and ultimately, a satire on the impossibility and absurdity of the idea of implementing such a police state.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/19/15 10:56 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094212 - 10/19/15 11:25 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Michael, I'm sorry. I don't agree with one of your points. None of your examples, a kid cutting up pictures, someone slowing something down to learn it or doing a "karaoke track" (which are liscenced, pertain to this at all) you are just throwing up non-sensical examples that don't pertain to any of this and frankly don't make any sense.

I'm sorry man. I think you are just not going to see this. I hate that because you otherwise seem pretty sensible. This one just seems to be beyond you and I can't explain it to you. Too bad.

MAB

#1094213 - 10/20/15 12:01 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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I've been following this, and Mike, it sound's like apples and oranges to me. Marc keeps saying "commercial gain", and you counter with cutting pictures out of teen magazines and having fun at home with music that you bought. No comparison. What's the argument? You're taking this literally. Why don't you get the gist?

#1094214 - 10/20/15 12:01 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Michael, I'm sorry. I don't agree with one of your points. None of your examples, a kid cutting up pictures, someone slowing something down to learn it or doing a "karaoke track" (which are liscenced, pertain to this at all) you are just throwing up non-sensical examples that don't pertain to any of this and frankly don't make any sense.

I'm sorry man. I think you are just not going to see this. I hate that because you otherwise seem pretty sensible. This one just seems to be beyond you and I can't explain it to you. Too bad.

MAB


Marc,

It's not nonsensical as I am responding to you saying "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period." I gave absurd examples to show how absurd your statement is. According to your statement, all three family members are in violation, as your definition of theft ("Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period.") is quite clear.

And you further say that the ONLY reason anyone would ever use another's work without permission is for commercial gain, to which my absurd examples also address.

The law makes it simple. It says you can basically do what you want with recordings (and songs, books, art, etc.) as long as it's done for fun, at home, and only shared with friends. You disagree, but you are disagreeing with the law, not me. So perhaps you feel that the law and the way things are--are not sensible, and that's fine, but please don't give me a cognitive dissonance ("I think you are just not going to see this") that I just don't have.

Just trying to understand where you stand, Marc. Sometimes what you say seems to suggest that you consider home offenders to be thieves as well. I am not sure how I feel! Cuz it's a slippery slope..if I create something amazing at home, but with unauthorized stuff..it feels like then there would be a strong temptation to go beyond sharing it with just friends..I am just trying to clarify and understand what you in fact do believe, cuz in all honesty, it seems to shift a bit from post to post.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 07:24 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094215 - 10/20/15 12:32 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Originally Posted by ben willis
I've been following this, and Mike, it sound's like apples and oranges to me. Marc keeps saying "commercial gain", and you counter with cutting pictures out of teen magazines and having fun at home with music that you bought. No comparison. What's the argument? You're taking this literally. Why don't you get the gist?


Hi Ben,

It would be apples and oranges, except Marc is not consistent with what he says. When you say, "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period" That period means a lot. It certainly negates other possible uses of recorded work. You don't say "period" unless you mean EXACTLY what you said.

And when Marc DID mention commercial gain, he quickly negated that by saying "what other reasons could there be?" And that is tantamount to saying again, that all irregular use of audio recordings (without permission) is theft, since it can ONLY be for commercial reasons.

I would be happy and relieved if we were talking about two different things, but alas, I don't think we are, not entirely. Marc seems to be very uncomfortable with the idea that folks can do whatever they want to with media of all kinds and recordings specifically, inside their own homes, for fun and friends. Hell, I do! It's an unsettling thought. I am just trying to figure out if there's a pre-existing bias against those who would use unauthorized audio at home for fun and only with friends. If so, some might find it would taint his opinion a bit.

Also, do realize it's fun to debate these things cuz they are interesting, complicated issues. I think we are being respectful of each other.

I find it interesting where "the law" decides to draw the line. Oft times it seems like a compromise that things are the way they are, but better that than creating laws that simply can't be enforced.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 06:46 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094216 - 10/20/15 12:50 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Hey Mike, I got Marc's argument as "commercial gain" from the beginning of this thread. Unless you just want to argue that point, I don't get the comparison. Yes you can manipulate paid for music for yourself and your friends. When you use a copyrighted track that someone else wrote and recorded, skew it to fit your own version, and distribute it to make money we all know it's illegal.

Karaoke doesn't even use original tracks, but I bet they pay for a license to produce them.

#1094218 - 10/20/15 01:17 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Hi Ben,

I hadn't gotten that Marc's argument was about commercial gain, and when I did ask that he clarify in a recent post, he made two statements that basically said ALL use of uncleared samples and recordings was theft. At that point, he seemed to be clarifying his feelings about uncleared samples, in general: "It's all theft because why else would anyone use recordings without permission, other than for commercial gain." If he wants to take those statements back or amend them, that's fine.

It would make me happy to know that he has no bias against those who just play with audio for fun and with friends, cuz he seemed to indicate otherwise a couple posts back. It wouldn't be a big deal if he did. I probably do, too. I have just been trying to understand his position on those that "do it" legally, like the young wannabe rappers who share their beats and raps with friends. It would help me understand Marc's position of the bigger picture.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 07:13 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094219 - 10/20/15 01:59 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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OK Mike, I leave the thread back to you and Marc.

#1094239 - 10/20/15 12:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Mike, I am sorry if you cannot read the things I say and not understand. I am pretty thorough. I started this thread. Frank Ocean. which is what we are talking about, used an existing music track from the EAGLES HOTEL CALIFORNIA for COMMERICAL GAIN. He had downloads of the song availible on YOU TUBE. I don;t believe ONE WORD that he didn't make money off of those existing tracks. He was told to "CEASE AND DESIST" and told the Eagles to screw themselves. At the same time he is a COMMERCIAL RAP ARTIST. His brand is doing MUSIC and performing live and recorded. That is COMMERICAL.

That is what I am talking about. Exploiting existing music tracks for your own personal gain. Karaoke is not involved in that because THOSE SONGS ARE LICENCED through the publishers of those songs. They are PAID for them. And they are RE-RECORDED, not the actual music tracks of the original songs. In Nashville we do thousands of those. Most of the publishers of many of those songs are IN NASHVILLE. I have sung many GUIDE TRACKS(which are the lead vocals to guide a singer through the song.) But I did not attempt to use that for COMMERCIAL gain. And yes, I have even sung Karaoke tracks myself, to give to friends. I PAID for those. I didn't not SELL THEN.

Using hit songs for things like YOU TUBE videos, slide shows, etc. is very standard practice. IF the people who do that reach a certain amount of spins, they are able to charge advertising rates. At that point they are supposed to licence the song from the publishers and the publishers can refuse, which is why often you will be given a link to a video and it is taken down due to COPYRIGHT ISSUES. That means that YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO USE SONGS FOR ANYTHING YOU WANT TO.

You put in things like a "little girl posting cut up pictures of a magazine and doing a collage." As long as she doesn't put that collage up in a major art gallery or charge an enormous amount of money for prints or that collage" (which also happens) there is no problem.But the second they go into COMMERCIAL uses, they are in trouble.

The "slowing down SMOKE ON THE WATER" is the same. LEARNING a song is part of the process and has nothing to do with this subject. If that guitar player wanted to record a version of SMOKE ON THE WATER, that he paid the licencing fees and got permission from the writers and publishers there is no problem.

But EVEN if there is no money involved, there STILL CAN BE PROBLEMS. I'm going to demonstrate this by giving you a REAL WORLD example that just happened to see if this can get you to understand.

A friend and co-writer of mine is JIM PETEREK. Jim wrote "VEHICLE (FRIENDLY STRANGER IN THE BLACK SEDAN,) HOLD ON LOOSLY, SO CAUGHT UP IN YOU, and many many other rock standards. Another song he wrote and had HUGE HIT on is EYE OF THE TIGER, from SURVIVOR, a huge hit from the 80's and the ROCKY III soundtrack.

In Kentucky we just had a huge controversy from a woman, Kim Davis, who is a court officer, who has refused to issue marraige licences for gay people. She went to jail for five days for contempt of court. Upon her release, there was a huge rally for her outside the courthouse and Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee was there. When she came out, they played the song EYE OF THE TIGER.

They had done this without Jim's permission and Jim was VERY UPSET because he is VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF GAY MARRAIGE. But people who did not know got the impression that he was on the other side and started sending him nasty emails, and all kinds of threats. He got an attorney to issue a CEASE AND DESIST order and they had to stop using the song. This has happened with BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, and many others where political campains and politicians have used songs without permission.

Now there was NO MONEY involved. Where is the harm? Well, suddenly being associated with a cause you DON'T BELIEVE in and because NO ONE READS BEYOND THE SOUND BITE, you can be dragged into something you had no desire or intention to be in.

STILL THINK THERE IS NO HARM?

Because I am telling you right now, that this is going to get nasty. There is going to be someone HURT or killed over something like this, most likely the first time one of these songs are associated with someone who defames ISLAM. And Mike, when this happens, I am going to be asking YOU "WHAT'S THE HARM?"

You want to know how I stand? There it is. I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me. The rappers were wrong to do it in the first place, producers are wrong to allow it and writers and publishers invite idiocy and problems when they do it. But they do it. Doesn't make it right or even make sense. It is NOT experimentation. That is something you do with your OWN music.

People do it, and if they are going to do it for fun, instruction or whatever, I understand it. Don't nessasarily agree with it, and it is NOTHING I WOULD EVER DO. But that is not my business.

But taking EXISTING MUSIC TRACKS, writing YOUR OWN SEPARATE LYRICS particularly unasked or uninvited, is NOT THAT. It is THEFT, PARTICULARLY WHEN USED IN COMMERICAL applications.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

MAB

#1094271 - 10/20/15 07:10 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc,

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
You want to know how I stand? There it is. I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me. The rappers were wrong to do it in the first place, producers are wrong to allow it and writers and publishers invite idiocy and problems when they do it. But they do it. Doesn't make it right or even make sense. It is NOT experimentation. That is something you do with your OWN music.

People do it, and if they are going to do it for fun, instruction or whatever, I understand it. Don't necessarily agree with it, and it is NOTHING I WOULD EVER DO. But that is not my business.
MAB


So is making a collage from various small bytes of unauthorized but commercial images, in your opinion, laziness also? Because there are probably some collage artists that would take offense at that. They probably work as hard as artists who use other mediums. ""I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." seems to me to be a rather narrow way of seeing what collage artists do. Hip-hop music tracks are, for the most part, the aural equivalent of collage art. I could point out the similarities, but I think you get that idea.


As to "where's the harm?" concerning what I guess is considered fair use in political campaigns..or are they just using the audio with absolutely no legal foundation? I agree, that could get ugly. There should be a footnote to the current law that says fair use does not apply when you are using the song in a biased context. Same addendum for compulsory licensing, since it only talks about how that license is void if the words or music are altered, I believe.

As to the song that would invoke extremist Islams' dander. Why open that can of worms? Does Salmon Rushdie regret his satirical book? Are you saying curb our creative expression because of fear of physical harm from fringe groups? Hard to know, since you simply are saying "watch out, this is gonna happen, and see how there's very real HARM here" and yes I get that..maybe it should still be up to the individual to decide if it's worth living in fear over? Or if you would decree law, where would you draw the line? Words and ideas are misunderstood in song lyrics, all the time. Only a third of the world understands the use of irony. But I am only mentioning this stuff cuz you did.

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Mike, I am sorry if you cannot read the things I say and not understand. I am pretty thorough.


I don't understand why you felt the need to regurgitate everything you said. I am sorry you felt the need to do that. My recent flurry of posts specifically address these two statements of yours:

Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period.

and

Using anyone's material without permission for commercial gain, (and if it was not for commercial gain WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?)is THEFT

And they seemed to indicate a predisposed bias against ALL kinds of unauthorized use of recordings. I simply wanted you to clarify where you stood on the LEGAL kinds of using unauthorized recordings, since you seemed to lump everything together in those statements.

You stated quite unequivocally that there can be NO other reasons PERIOD to use unauthorized recordings. If not arrogant, it's at least extremely dismissive of the many marginal groups of folks who actually DO experiment with audio, and all the groups of people who do have reasons other than commercial gain for using such audio, most of which are more in the "grey area" than the absurd examples that I used.

But please try to understand why I used absurd examples. I was confused by your over-the-top statements. You claim to not exaggerate, but damn it, you do, and sometimes it's hard to "read" beyond those exaggerated statements to know how you really feel, since it's those statements that carry so much weight, so please forgive me if I got those statements wrong and you are (reluctantly) okay with the boy cutting up James Brown records to make beats for his rap, and the mash-up artists that use software to remove or isolate vocals and then mix and mingle various bands together--provided they keep everything on the home front and just share with friends. Good to know. But I hope you can see why I was confused? You don't think those statements could make someone feel otherwise?

Please don't imagine me to have taken a stance on any of this, I am still in the gathering knowledge stage. I just know when something sounds really wrong to me, and then I feel the need to speak up. I'm really a pretty meek person, and am totally frightened by people who seem very opinionated and voice those opinions in a fierce manner, and probably cuz I remember that my dad used to do that back in the seventies and scared the bejesus out of me and my mom. But I realize that's not you. Still..understand that I GOT every bit of what you said, all through your postings. I did not misunderstand anything. I was trying to clarify your stance as to "the bigger picture." Thanks for sharing your feelings about sampling in general, cuz it's easier for me to connect the dots to your strong feelings about Frank Ocean et al, now.

Sometimes "intellectual property" should be shared, without flinching, in my opinion, like when it comes to patents on life saving drugs that only the rich can afford. But that's truly apples and oranges.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 07:15 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094279 - 10/20/15 09:14 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Very much so. I think I've said all I'm going to on this.

#1094281 - 10/20/15 11:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
...I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me...

MAB


So, you're saying that Michael Jackson, The Beatles, Johnny Cash, Beck, and the list goes on with some pretty impressive names all at one point said "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID."

All of them used "samples" in some of their recordings. Not sure if I would dare to call them creatively lazy or they're not creative worth a damn.

However, I do get your point for the commercial gain and it's wrong if not cleared... But that statement you made above is bold and in my opinion not valid.

Do I use samples? No, unless asked to do it by the artist or his/her label/management and cleared for use. However, I still don't think it's wrong for others to use samples in their recordings if done legally. I also don't think they are necessarily lazy or not creative neither (see list above) - some of the greatest hits in history sampled some parts of the song.


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#1094282 - 10/20/15 11:45 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Songcat, how exactly did they use samples? That didn't even come into being until the 2000's with computer technology. This conversation has gotten so ludacris I cannot be a part of it anymore. Enough. Use whatever you want to however you want to whenever you want to. I don't care.

MAB

#1094283 - 10/21/15 12:04 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Jackson "Beat It" - "The intro is taken note for note from a demo LP released the year before, called "The Incredible Sounds of Synclavier II" first published in 1981 by Denny Jaeger Creative Services, Inc and sold by New England Digital, makers of the Synclavier."

So, re-playing a piece of music note for note in a commerical recording when optaining the license is fine, but using a sample for a commercial recording when optaining the license is not fine? It's old school sampling lol but bottom line the same thing.

Beck "Loser": "The song's drum track is sampled from a Johnny Jenkins cover of Dr. John's "I Walk on Gilded Splinters" from the 1970 album Ton-Ton Macoute!"

Well, that song was recorded in '92 while I was still playing with little toy cars - well before the 2000s.

J. Cash "Folsom Prison Blues"" "Cash took the melody for the song ... from Gordon Jenkins's 1953 Seven Dreams concept album, specifically the song "Crescent City Blues".

Same argument as for the Michael Jackson example.

"The history of sampling goes back to the 60s and 70s, before digital technology came into use and sounds were still recorded and played on tape. Tape had very high audio quality, and could be manipulated in many different ways, as you could cut it and stick it together again."

Last edited by songcat; 10/21/15 12:12 AM.

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#1094312 - 10/21/15 09:07 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Come to think about it, The Beatles did use carnival organ music for the song "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite" that was taped from vinyl records and spliced together. They also recorded a BBC broadcast of "King Lear" at the end of "I Am The Walrus". I don't know if they paid license fees or not. Songcat is right. I don't know anything about the other examples he brought up. I still think you guys are over-complicating Marc's original point and taking it too literally.

#1094313 - 10/21/15 09:31 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Originally Posted by ben willis
Come to think about it, The Beatles did use carnival organ music for the song "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite" that was taped from vinyl records and spliced together. They also recorded a BBC broadcast of "King Lear" at the end of "I Am The Walrus". I don't know if they paid license fees or not. Songcat is right. I don't know anything about the other examples he brought up. I still think you guys are over-complicating Marc's original point and taking him too literally.


Hi Ben,

I think it's important to say exactly what one means when dealing with legal issues like these. I don't think Marc would disagree, nor think we should take him LESS literally?

And it was very important to know Marc's feelings on the LEGAL use of unauthorized samples, and sampling in general. In a sense Marc has put Ocean on trial and found him guilty. But if it was a real trial, and Marc was being questioned by lawyers for jury duty, the minute Marc expresses his feelings about sampling in general, he would be asked to go home. Why? Because Ocean would not get a fair trial if everyone on the jury thought sampling was lazy, etc. Same thing if Marc was called in as an "expert witness" to talk about sampling to the jury. Cross-examination would bring out his contemptuousness for sampling in general, and I imagine they would end up striking his testimony from the record.

I am not responding to get Marc riled up again. In fact, I've been very depressed that I got under his skin. We agree on most of what was discussed here. I conceded that he was probably RIGHT as far as Frank Ocean goes. I did. I meant it, too. When I'm wrong, I can admit it. And furthermore, I am very sorry I upset him, and hope he accepts my apologies.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/21/15 09:37 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094320 - 10/21/15 10:55 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Originally Posted by ben willis
Come to think about it, The Beatles did use carnival organ music for the song "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite" that was taped from vinyl records and spliced together. They also recorded a BBC broadcast of "King Lear" at the end of "I Am The Walrus". I don't know if they paid license fees or not. Songcat is right. I don't know anything about the other examples he brought up. I still think you guys are over-complicating Marc's original point and taking it too literally.


I actually took the time to read through the entire thread as I thought it was super interesting. Some of the arguments that were brought up had some valid points on both sides and I totally agree that some of Marc's points were taken too literally.

But, when he said "I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me..."

That was pretty clear and it seems like he "literally" means just that, so I thought I'd chime in.

In an earlier post on the thread he said: "When someone is correct, no matter, who it is, that should be pointed out." - again, I totally agree with him, there is actually a shed load of things I agree on with Marc.

However, since I agree with the above statement I also think that 'When someone is wrong about something, no matter, who it is, that should be pointed out as well'.

I'm not saying Marc is wrong about his opinion about sampling (it's an opinion, there is no right or wrong with opinions), but if he really means his "using samples means one is talentless" statement literally, I will point out that he is wrong about calling The Beatles for instance talentless and lazy unless again, it's his opinion about The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Beck and countless others. I'm just afraid that we're left with no talented artists on earth if that's the case lol.


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#1094323 - 10/22/15 02:23 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Ben and Songcat,

Okay guys. I respect your opinion so I will own taking Marc too literally. smile

Please realize, though, that this was the very first thing I said to Marc, in my first post to him, that I "basically agreed with him, except for all the exaggerating," to which he replied that no, they weren't exaggerations and he wasn't exaggerating. On more than one occasion, Marc basically instructed me to take him literally, in this fashion. So, you know, I kinda feel like a patsy.

But this is all water under a bridge over troubled molars. smile

Since Marc's done with this thread and not here to defend himself, I should probably bow out, too.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/22/15 02:25 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094378 - 10/22/15 10:26 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Raleigh, ya'll
Ya know,
all told...

This world...or at least mine...is better off for all that I've learned here.

Thanks All...

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1094467 - 10/24/15 01:22 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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I can't believe I came back here but I did.you are still talking VERY VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. "Sound effect records' like the Caliope sounds the BEATLES used, were in the EMI SOUND EFFECT LIBRARY and had been recorded over the decades for use on EMI PROJECTS. They PAID FOR THAT IN IN MANY CASES CREATED IT THEMSELVES. The Beatles recorded FOR EMI. George Martin was PAID by EMI.

The "Michael Jackson" and Johnny Cash examples don't hold up either. "Borrowing an existing melody from another song or RECREATING that song is something THEY PAID FOR. Almost EVERY SONG BORROWS FROM OTHER SONGS. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION.

This is the whole handed lifting of existing musical recordings of other artists. You can go back to a court ruling of "gilbert O' Sullivan's "Alone again Naturally" that was sampled AND SUED rapper Biz Markie, http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2009/biz-markie-gets-the-copyright-smackdown/

This is not a gray area guys. I'm sorry. You keep throwing up examples that have nothing to do with this subject.
Song Cat, if you are a CREATIVE person, I don't see what the need to openly use ANYTHING FROM ANYONE ELSE in an OPEN MANNER.

The problem I have constantly with writers that go on and on and on and on about COPYRIGHTS AND STEALING SONGS are that many things are NOT COPYRIGHTABLE. All these songs sound the same, borrow from each other. But that is NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, and the frustration comes from you guys seemingly not able to understand that. I have cited personal examples of friends where using songs without permission have caused enormous personal and career damage. But it simply doesn't seem to sink in.

I don't know why I come back to this, it is just something that sticks so bad in my craw because of what we are having to deal with in the overall entertainment world. And it is said I am exaggerating. That is what bothers me. This is NOT exageration. It is real life and it is happening right in front of your eyes.

MAB

#1094468 - 10/24/15 01:57 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Yeah,
I have read a few things that don't add up but gets tossed around. Someone once posted that Pistol Packing Mama covered by Bing Crosby was the one that made the hit on it. Sorry but Al Dexter, if I remember correctly had the hit and Bing Covered it. Someone posted that The Wilburn Brothers father gave Webb Pierce his break and later Webb recipicated by helping the Wilburn Brothers. A stretch if there ever was one. Never heard of the guy that is supposed to have helped Johnny Cash until now. And someone decided that Hank Locklin was an Irish Tenor.


Ray E. Strode
#1094488 - 10/24/15 11:56 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
I can't believe I came back here but I did.you are still talking VERY VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. "Sound effect records' like the Caliope sounds the BEATLES used, were in the EMI SOUND EFFECT LIBRARY and had been recorded over the decades for use on EMI PROJECTS. They PAID FOR THAT IN IN MANY CASES CREATED IT THEMSELVES. The Beatles recorded FOR EMI. George Martin was PAID by EMI.

The "Michael Jackson" and Johnny Cash examples don't hold up either. "Borrowing an existing melody from another song or RECREATING that song is something THEY PAID FOR. Almost EVERY SONG BORROWS FROM OTHER SONGS. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION.

This is the whole handed lifting of existing musical recordings of other artists. You can go back to a court ruling of "gilbert O' Sullivan's "Alone again Naturally" that was sampled AND SUED rapper Biz Markie, http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2009/biz-markie-gets-the-copyright-smackdown/

This is not a gray area guys. I'm sorry. You keep throwing up examples that have nothing to do with this subject.
Song Cat, if you are a CREATIVE person, I don't see what the need to openly use ANYTHING FROM ANYONE ELSE in an OPEN MANNER.

The problem I have constantly with writers that go on and on and on and on about COPYRIGHTS AND STEALING SONGS are that many things are NOT COPYRIGHTABLE. All these songs sound the same, borrow from each other. But that is NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, and the frustration comes from you guys seemingly not able to understand that. I have cited personal examples of friends where using songs without permission have caused enormous personal and career damage. But it simply doesn't seem to sink in.

I don't know why I come back to this, it is just something that sticks so bad in my craw because of what we are having to deal with in the overall entertainment world. And it is said I am exaggerating. That is what bothers me. This is NOT exageration. It is real life and it is happening right in front of your eyes.

MAB


Look MAB, I don't want to come across as rude or anything, I just want to inform folks about things I know a thing or two just like yourself.

Let me clarify a few things:

"The "Michael Jackson" and Johnny Cash examples don't hold up either. "Borrowing an existing melody from another song or RECREATING that song is something THEY PAID FOR."

- Well, Cash didn't pay for it and ended up in court about the song (or they settled outside of court) just like someone who uses a sample without paying for it.

"...if you are a CREATIVE person, I don't see what the need to openly use ANYTHING FROM ANYONE ELSE in an OPEN MANNER."

- MAB, if you're a creative person, why would you copy someone else's song note for note openly? I never said sampling is good or bad - I personally am not a big fan of it and stay away from it. But who am I saying "no" if a client wants it and cleared the sample? Who am I judging people creating art from art if they pay for it and do it legally?

You said in an earlier post that sampling didn't start until the 2000s. What about the Beck example? The song I mentioned uses drum samples - and was recorded in '92! You were clearly wrong about your statement that sampling only started 15 years ago.

Now, fair enough for your Beatles example, but come on, you say using a cleared sample is bad, but replaying a song note by note is okay when it's cleared? You got to be kidding? It's the same thing - the original creator AGREED to it. If he or she did not agree to it, both things are wrong, sampling or copying/replaying/borrowing or whatever else you want to call it.

You know there are many smart things you say about songwriting, the industry in general (at least the Nashville scene - not so much about other markets) and so on. But even you're wrong at times and it doesn't hurt to admit it ;-)

And now in all honesty, I did five minutes of research the other day and found four examples of sampling from non hip hop or rap artists. Well, you now call three of them "borrowing" and not sampling - fair enough. Still leaves me with one example of sampling from a non hip hop artist that used samples well before the 2000s. I'll do another five minutes of research and we'll be able to add another one… Another five minutes of research and we'll add another one… This can go on and on.

Bottom line - sampling is not wrong if done legally with a license from the original creator. Same goes for "borrowing" and replaying a song note for note. Not wrong if the permission is there. No permission = bad in both cases!


http://songcat.biz - Where Timeless Creations Happen

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#1094513 - 10/25/15 07:13 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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I did another 5 minutes of research and we can add some names to the "list of untalented and lazy artists" because we all know:

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette

I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me.
MAB


All of the artists below (and their producers/co-writers) used CLEARED samples in some of their songs.

Mary J Blidge
Foster The People
Christina Aguilera
Lily Allen
Janet Jackson
Lana Del Rey
Jason Derulo
Mariah Carey
U2
Fall Out Boy
George Michael
Gotye

And the list goes on but my five minutes are up.


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#1094562 - 10/26/15 04:32 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Wow. You really just don't get it do you? This entire thread is about UNAUTHORIZED USAGE OF EXISTING SONGS. I guess that just doesn't factor in at all does it Songcat? Guess we are just on different pages.

I really am done with this now. Sorry I don't speak your language.

MAB

#1094590 - 10/27/15 03:45 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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It's true, I'm sure you don't speak my languages - but this thread is in English if I'm not completely mistaken and if you only talk about the "UNAUTHORIZED USAGE OF EXISTING SONGS" then your harsh and very broad statement should read - my added words are in ():

"I think (UNAUTHORIZED) "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID (WITHOUT GETTING THE PERMISSION)." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me."

Sorry Marc, but you say A but mean B. No wonder we're not on the same page. And, reading through this whole thread, seems like I'm not alone to "just not getting it".

The statement you made reads very clear to me. But, just to get it what you're saying: When someone samples with permission, he's creative. When someone samples without permission, he's not? That makes sense lol.

Once more, bottom line is: Doing it with permission is okay and I don't see any problem with it if someone does it. Many great artists in ALL GENRES have done it. Doing it without permission is horribly bad. Glad we agree on that part, but I believe we did from the moment I joined this conversation.

Last edited by songcat; 10/27/15 05:19 AM.

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#1094620 - 10/27/15 05:09 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Following Marc's logic concerning his "creative laziness" quote, this quote:

"I think (UNAUTHORIZED) "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID (WITHOUT GETTING THE PERMISSION)." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me."

Then it follows..

1) A guy who uses (cleared/authorized) sitar samples and loops is lazy because he does not buy and learn to play the sitar, or hire a sitar player. Insert any instrument in place of sitar. This is no different than saying you are lazy if you drive 20 miles to work instead of walking. Cleared, authorized loops and samples are simply tools to help expedite projects in this post industrial age.

2) The guy with no hands who lives in Montana and knows no guitar players is simply lazy for not learning to play the guitar with his toes.

I could continue, there are as many reasons to use samples and loops as there are people. Most are not from laziness.

Songcat's research only skims the surface of creative artists who use them.

Marc, you are entitled to your opinion, but honestly? In my opinion it puts a big, hairy EGG on your face, that will be there until the moment you admit that you are wrong on this branch of conversation that you commented on profusely.

You start or choose to continue a branch of conversation, then scold us when we comment on what you said in that branch, and then say we have problems following you for not sticking to the original tree trunk, and it's simply because you seem to have a problem admitting when you are wrong. I hope you enjoy the smell of rotten egg.

Am I taking you "too literally" here, Marc? If so, then that means that what you said is an exaggeration, which it would be very kind for you to admit to. Just like saying "samples are not interactive playthings" or "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period." It is not up to us to qualify your statements, but that is what we end up doing, since you paint in such broad strokes with binary all/nothing statements without qualifying them. Ironically enough it seems lazy on your part!

By the way, song-length samples like Ocean/Eagles and Markie/O'Sullivan's (which I mentioned several posts ahead of you!)..this accounts for less than one percent of how samples are used, cleared or otherwise. Most are one, two, or four bars in length, and then looped to flow with the music. Just saying.

Also, in a sense Songcat, myself, and half the JPFers who contribute to the MP3 forum use cleared samples. Virtual instruments are composed of thousands of samples that are arranged to play on a keyboard and give the illusion of that particular instrument. I love my virtual instruments and they are the backbone of most of my personal recordings. For some reason, virtual instruments remind me of a Steven Wright joke, "'I have a map of the United States... Actual size. It says, 'Scale: 1 mile = 1 mile." Good virtual instruments are like that: they employ a sample for every possible articulation, nuance and volume of an instrument's pallet. As you can imagine, virtual violins can run into several gigabytes of material.

BIAB has "real tracks" which myself and many JPFers employ in much of our music making. Are we all lazy, Marc?

BIAB/Real Tracks consists of thousands of musical phrases that are transformed according to one's chord choices, and assembled by the software with no waiting. BIAB/Real Tracks helps expedite projects in a big way, though there are drawbacks to this software such as unwanted repetitions of the same phrase, but that's a conversation for another thread entirely.

Marc, you're a good guy, and your knowledge and wisdom concerning the Nashville scene, in all its minutiae, is unsurpassed, and I have no qualm with you beyond these few tiny issues. smile

In other areas, perhaps your expertise is a bit less? There is absolutely no shame in admitting when you are wrong.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/27/15 10:01 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094640 - 10/28/15 11:00 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Mike. Yes, you are very lazy if you require samples to make your music. And you are even more lazy when you can't stay on subject.The subject of this is very clear and very distinct. You don't understand it ,can't make your case so you drift. you drift to a thousand things that have nothing to do with anything and when I refute them you change the language and the subject. It wasn't about SAMPLES to begin with but you force it to go there with is not on subject.

Egg on my face. You know kid, I really couldn't care less what you think about me or what constitute "egg on my face" whatever that means. Who the HELL are you to question me at all? Go learn to stay on subject, grow up and learn something.

Yes, you are lazy. Incredibly lazy.

MAB

#1094651 - 10/28/15 01:12 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Um, Well,
Homer and Jethro didn't use any stinkin' Samples. Paradies yes. You can listen to one of "em, I'M MOVING ON NUMBER 2 and then you can follow the last line in the song, HERE COMES HANK SNOW, I'VE GOT TO GO, I'M MOVING ON.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 10/28/15 01:13 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1094656 - 10/28/15 02:15 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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We can probably use samples of Homer and Jethro, they have been gone a long time. Didn't Homer write those long tunes about Troy?

Try to not get personal. Arguing the issues is just fine, just be respectful as you can when the disagreements are so strong.


"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The 'hard' is what makes it great."
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @ FAWM 2016)
#1094657 - 10/28/15 03:40 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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I think all has been said on this thread. The original topic was about Frank Ocean being sued for using a sample that was not cleared. I think by now, we all agree that this is wrong (not that he gets sued, that he used a sample illegaly lol).

Somehow the conversation drifted to samples in general. Marc is entitled to his opinion (which he now reinforced once again) that "everyone who uses samples is lazy and talentless". Sadly, that means that a large number of today's hit producers, songwriters and other artists in ANY GENRE from Pop, to Rock, Hip Hop, Soul... you name it, are lazy and talentless in Marc's eyes.

I think Kevin made a good point by saying to be respectful when disagreements are strong. I think all involved did for the most part. However, calling people "lazy and talentless" for using a widely used method in music production might not be high on my scale of respectfulness. Same goes for talking down to people with statements such as "You just don't get it", "I'm sorry I don't speak your language" or "Who the HELL are you to question me at all".

Who is Mike? I don't know! From what I heard just a guy who's making a living with music... Just like myself and you, Marc. Now, the question that comes to my mind is: Who are you to call artists like Maroon 5, U2, and many more mentioned earlier lazy and talentless?

Just some food for thought, no need to answer or justify yourself. As I mentioned, it looks like all has been said on this thread and most have "checked out" several times by now.


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#1094662 - 10/28/15 07:29 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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I don't mind samples being used to flesh out a work tape or a home demo. I know string pads and synth accordions are used in Nashville demos. I would actually be ok with them in a song. I think those are just tools. The Spanish guitar part on side one of the White Album? That's a mellotron. I think it's between Wild Honey Pie and Bungalow Bill. And I think Miles "sampled" a portion of his own In a Silent Way on Jack Johnson.

The problem is this...what starts out being used creatively becomes a crutch. I just saw Chance the Rapper on Colbert. Other than his high school pep rally routine, his song was crap. A live drummer, trumpet player blowing nothing in particular and samples. Other than being able to talk really fast and jump around like a cheer leader...he has no talent and is musically lazy. His lyric was crap, too. His use of samples is a crutch.

Using recordings of others' songs to enhance your own recordings is lazy and gives evidence of a lack of musical ideas. I'm not talking string pads here. Or the mellotron flute on Strawberry Fields. (A truly visionary recording) I'm talking about using John Bonham's snare in place of your own band or drummer.

The list songcat provided only proves my point. Most of those people never wrote an innovative, timeless song in their lives. U2 hasn't done much worthwhile in decades and will never record a Strawberry Fields. Hell, The Doors did more on their first album than they have in 35 years.

Turn off the damn machines and write a great song.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/28/15 07:32 PM.
#1094663 - 10/28/15 07:37 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Ps saying most modern producers and artists use others' recordings doesn't help your argument. It's been ages since I've heard a truly memorable modern song. And it sure wasn't robopop.

#1094669 - 10/28/15 09:06 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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To be honest couchgrouch, I don't want to agree to your statement about U2 and other modern artists (can't believe I call them modern lol), but I also don't want to disagree. You see, I grew up with this kind of music. I grew up with music having been sampled. I grew up with those "damn machines". I don't know any different. I wasn't even planned until the late 80s.

But, fact is, this is how the majority of music is being produced in today's age. Is it good? Is it bad? Heck, one can argue about that. Is it right? It certainly is if done the legal way. Most of today's hit writers and producers are my age, some even younger so they also don't know any other way.

So, now what options does one have? You can either say "well, that's the way it is, I want to be commercially successful" and just go with it, or you want to make a statement and try to change the industry back to 60 years ago. It's a tough quest, but would be interesting enough to find out how music would change in that case. What would happen if all of a sudden those 'damn machines' were gone tomorrow (other than that we can't have those discussions here on JPF anymore).

But, I think that's something that almost deserves a whole new thread to discuss.


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#1094675 - 10/28/15 10:45 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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I think U2 was out of gas after The Joshua Tree but someone said most modern artists and producers do it. The genie's out of the bottle and no one's putting it back. But individuals can resist trends. Rap and robopop are my era. But i was introduced to classic rock and roll by older friends at a young age.compared to Who's Next, NWA was and is a joke. I learned to write outside of the musical entropy of the 80s and 90s.

Very, very few people are going to do that. Most involved with entertainment today are just lost in a herd of walkers shuffling toward a horse carcass. Let's hear it for Jurassic Avengers 3 and Jay-Z's next track about pimpin'.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/28/15 10:53 PM.
#1094677 - 10/28/15 11:40 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Mike. Yes, you are very lazy if you require samples to make your music. And you are even more lazy when you can't stay on subject.The subject of this is very clear and very distinct. You don't understand it ,can't make your case so you drift. you drift to a thousand things that have nothing to do with anything and when I refute them you change the language and the subject. It wasn't about SAMPLES to begin with but you force it to go there with is not on subject.

Egg on my face. You know kid, I really couldn't care less what you think about me or what constitute "egg on my face" whatever that means. Who the HELL are you to question me at all? Go learn to stay on subject, grow up and learn something.

Yes, you are lazy. Incredibly lazy.

MAB


Then a few dozen hard core JPFers who use BIAB are incredibly lazy, too, including Kevin our beloved moderator.

I work about 14 hours a day making demos so I can pay my rent, and I use tools that help me get things done in a timely fashion, and I make a living doing this. Just barely, but I'm happy to be doing what I enjoy. If you actually knew me, you'd know that I am not lazy, and that I'm actually a nice guy. We just have such polarized ways of expressing ourselves that it's probably not healthy for us to talk with each other, haha.

I never "changed" any subject, Marc. What I did was that I gave examples that poked holes in your all or nothing statements. When you echoed Henley saying that these people treat audio like "interactive playthings" I pointed out the for the greater public, audio can be and is legally interactive and fun to play with. You weren't qualifying that statement, so I did. It needed to be said, otherwise you are basically misinforming people, making them think that it is illegal and/or morally wrong to "mess" with audio for fun. When you said ""Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period" I felt the need to speak up, and show you examples that yes of course were not about Frank Ocean, but contradicted your statement and showed the absurdity of it, the exaggeration of it. Using others' work is only theft under certain conditions. Was I wrong to go there? No. You were again, misinforming everyone. I felt I needed to speak up. The only times I "changed the subject" was to give examples that showed the absurdity of your sweeping all/nothing statements.

Who the HELL am I to question you at all? Seriously? Now you are just baiting me, Marc. I'll let that quote stand by itself, haha.

I am a 57 year old workaholic who made demos in Nashville in the nineties, and then moved back to California to take care of my mom who developed Alzheimer's and was bedridden for over a decade and it broke my heart to see her slowly slip away.

I forced the subject to change? I believe asking how you feel about "sampling in general" was a fair question, and in no way have I been coercive in that regard. It's important to know your feelings about sampling in general, since it is at the heart of what this thread is about. It's about sampling, and how a certain guy crossed over the line in his practice of sampling. It's important to know your feelings about sampling in general, because if you have a skewed or biased viewpoint of sampling in all its incarnations, it tends to make me more skeptical about what you say about Ocean's case, even though everything you say about Ocean's case may in fact be true.. I mean, it's one thing to hate apples and make a case against them, but if you hate all fruit, then I take what you say about apples with a grain of salt. I mean, jurors get weeded out in such manner, so a guy can get a fair trial, you know?

Besides, you brought up "creative laziness" all on your own, several posts earlier (look for the italics):

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Michael,

I think we are on the same page. Music is about ADAPTATION, not as much as CHANGE. It all changes, and some things come around in giant circles. When I had mentioned that "No one is making money" I also meant to include a caveat, that there are always people who do make money. There are always people who find a way. There are always innovators.

My problem on the entire Sampling and creative theft is that I just think it is total intellectual and creative laziness. And Frank Ocean's stunt DID work. He got publicity, his ticket sales rise, his "branding" rises,and he gets the reputation for "Sticking it to the rich rock star."

But it is what it is. As you say, I have accepted the way things are, as I always have. When I was an artist, I did everything I could in that capacity. When I got too old for that, I switched to writing, having publishing deals, getting cuts, etc. But when the money drained out of that (AND I WAS ASKED) I turned my attention to teaching and instructing others. Didn't want to do that, just came my way and I adapted. I'm fortunate that people seek me out and ask and pay for my services. Many of my contemporaries, aren't that lucky.

I will always do the same. Hope you are well. Good discussion.

MAB


That was eons ago, when we were being nice with each other. No force. No coercion. You offered your opinions, free of charge.

So now you are being downright mean in your conversation, Marc. I'll tell you one more thing about who I am: I am someone who does not deserve nor appreciate being talked to like that, and I would never ever talk with you in such a manner.

And as far as your laziness comment, I think Jesus said, "judge not, lest you be judged."

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/29/15 07:30 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094680 - 10/29/15 12:44 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Senor Grouch,

I hope you're having a lovely evening, and are not suffering from last Sunday's "The Walking Dead" like I am. smile

And again, keep in mind I don't use other people's music in any of my demos for myself or clients!

Software, virtual instruments, audio samples and loops, these are all just tools, just like guitars and pianos are tools. The art is in the vision of the piece, and getting that vision manifest. Use whatever tools will do this in the most economical way. Now that's creativity!

BUT lets say I feel the way you do, but I have a deadline and get a two bar sample I need cleared at the eleventh hour, then incorporate it into the piece--the sample is just one tiny part of this piece. Then I present the piece, say it's for an ad, to my boss, and confess to him that I feel dirty and lazy for having used the sample. I imagine my boss would say something like, "what minus points you get for laziness in using that sample is more than offset by your ingenuity in hearing exactly what was needed and getting it done pronto--so don't sell yourself short, there's plenty of creativity in that." I guess 7 seasons of Mad Men have taken their toll, haha.

So you know, it all depends on how one looks at creativity and commerce, and if one is willing to let the two commingle. Art and commerce have always been odd bedfellows, and we tend to think of them as mutually exclusive, but in this day and age it's a fact the two must learn to live together.

We need to make our livings. We have deadlines, and we don't need to re-invent the freakin' wheel every time we do a new piece, chopping all the boring wood of the drum parts, hell, owning the damn drum kit to begin with! Besides, not everyone is Mike Oldfield who can play all the parts or connected to enough musicians to be able to pull off professional sounding recordings by employing their non-existent studio musician friends and neighbors.

Some, like me, live in spaces where very little noise is tolerated. I am lucky to have three windows of opportunity a week to sing, so I can make demos.

And the more unique/exotic the samples, the more quickly the "laziness" theory falls apart. I am not lazy for using didgeridoo samples, I am practical. LOL. Or do you actually think I should get onto Craig's list and hire a didgeridoo player? I'd just love to hear you say that, haha.

Who says that every single moment of every track on the mixer board had better be played by a real human, or it's lazy or cheating? Probably people who have invested a lot in doing just that. To me it's a preposterous, presumptuous notion. If your eye is on the goal, and the goal is the finished piece, are you going to tell an artist who hears a James Brown loop for the drum track that he is lazy? Keep in mind that now, many folks who use samples do so because that's what they hear in their creative imaginations, so it can't be a crutch to them, if they are not substitutions for "the real thing." You feel me?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/29/15 07:24 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094698 - 10/29/15 10:39 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,527
Kevin Emmrich Offline
Kevin Emmrich  Offline


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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,527
Crozet, VA
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
... Then a few dozen hard core JPFers who use BIAB are incredibly lazy, too, including Kevin our beloved moderator. -- Mike

I might not be the best example to use (ha, ha).
--------------------------------------------------------

I think using samples is fine -- legally obtained samples if releasing publicly. Same thing with artwork and photographs that you get on the internet. For my CD I used two web photographs and a van gogh piece for backdrops. I emailed the photographers and requested permission to use their work. I didn't contact van gogh, though.

When I visited Nashville the studio owner used drum/bass samples to get a working demo. Of course, if he did a commercial recording he would bring in a bassist and a drummer.

Is using samples lazy -- in a lot of cases it isn't. In some cases it is. But I find it unbelievable that folks would defend frank ocean's decision to just use hotel california samples in a commercial recording without getting permission or paying royalties. It doesn't make any sense. Of course I am one of those that just doesn't get the whole rap thing -- it is just so un-musical. I guess early rap was all about story telling about ghetto life, but then it morphed into ... whatever it has morphed into. Are there pretty good rap songs out -- absolutely, but the trash percentage seems higher than other musical genres (in my opinion).


"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The 'hard' is what makes it great."
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @ FAWM 2016)
#1094703 - 10/29/15 12:08 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: May 2001
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,725
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Aw, Humm,
I'm gonna have to talk to Ludwig Van Beethoven as I seem to remember he may have borrowed Ode To Joy in his 9Th from somebody! Ye gads, is nothing sacred!


Ray E. Strode
#1094715 - 10/29/15 03:25 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,170
couchgrouch Online content
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couchgrouch  Online Content
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Joined: Dec 2000
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cochise, az, usa
Mike, people had deadlines long before samples. I stand by everything I've said and point to the complete dearth of great songs and albums as evidence that samples and machines have not helped modern music but only allowed people with zero talent to infest pop music like mold.

#1094716 - 10/29/15 03:26 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,170
couchgrouch Online content
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couchgrouch  Online Content
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,170
cochise, az, usa
Ps something tells me Glenn is still alive.

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