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#1093701 - 10/11/15 04:32 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Midnight,

It was me, talking about a "high level Panel discussion" I attended around 1997 or 98'. There were around 100 of the top writers and publishers in a big conference room, I believe at BMI headquarters. At the time I was there representing the SONGWRITER'S GUILD, where I was a member and on one of the advisory panels. It was kind of a "Who's who" meeting, with enormously successful writers and the top money makers. On the Dias, was a couple of record company presidents, representatives of ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, NSAI, some politicians, and many other interested bystanders.

Also on the dias were two members of the "Tech" world, I believe one was from Los Angeles, one from New York. They were talking about this new thing called the "Internet" and how it was going to affect the business. Many were very optimistic, saying that we were going to be able to get our music out "all over the world, and open up endless new markets."

But the tech guys were like Doctors giving out Cancer diagnosis, that more or less, our business was on life support and was going to change forever. It got very tense a few times, with the writers and publishers getting very testy about collections and how things were going to be regulated.

At one point, One of the tech guys said "In the future, songwriters are going to have to get used to doing without royalties because they won't be there." The whole room got very quiet and then, one of the absolute top writers who was sitting about three feet from me, raised his hand and said "How will writers make a living?"

The tech guy, just very matter of factly said, "YOU WON'T."

That has been the way ever since. Right after that, you started to see the publishers and hit writers becoming artist developers. Outside cuts became a thing of the past, and everyone circled their wagons. Now, artists are developed long before anyone on the outside even know they exist. American Idol developed the "360 Degree Deal" giving record labels and producers percentages of an artist's touring, merchandising, endorsements and eliminated anyone not in those inner circles any access whatsoever.

And the money dissapeared, as did publishers, who became "song pluggers" (film and television placement companies)and basically one scheme or scam after another, taking money from the naive songwriters, and every songwriter web site ending up with endless threads that all started "Has anyone ever dealt with..." And most of the record companies, legitimate publishers, outside the majors all dried up and closed.

Writing deals died as each individual song paid less and less money. And the Internet built and built, putting millions of people and billions of songs into the pipeline, mediocrity, ruled, and led us to what we are talking about here, simply taking someone else's work, that they paid for, spent time and emotional capital to build, and someone who has no relation to that song, just coming in and taking whatever they want. "Interactive playthings" as Henley said.

And the fact that many people see nothing wrong with it at all and justify pretty much anything is the result.

You see, I've heard the "what's the harm" comments before. I heard it in the 90's, when college students complained about the costs of records or getting "one or two songs they liked on an album. So they simply downloaded it for free. What was the harm?" All those rock stars were rich."

When they started ripping files and file sharing with all their friends, who forward that along with thousands of THEIR friends who sent it out to hundreds of thousands of THEIR friends. They all said "What's the harm?"

I heard it when people like "Napster" and Kazza started. "What was the harm in giving people what they wanted?" I heard it with the general public who got what they wanted as long as they didn't have to pay for it. "What was the harm?" When they had "Subscription services that charged very little money but paid almost nothing to writers.

I heard it from Rappers, as they simply sampled other people's works and said "What's the harm?"

I heard it as the talent level of writing and performing declined and everything sounded the same. "What was the harm?"

Now I hear it when one person or another, simply steals someone else's work, watches their fame grow, pushing their merchandise and product endorsements go up, their ability to get higher ticket prices and claim "No money changed hands, so what's the harm?" And they are glorified for their inventiveness.

And I want to see what happens when some existing song is sampled and ripped off, and someone writes lyrics glorifying Nazi's or "defaming the prophet Mohammed" and it goes up getting millions of downloads on the Internet, and someone who had the "Original song that was ripped off" is held responsible and attacked, killed, their houses or businesses destroyed." Don't think that can happen? Ask the families of Theo Van Gogh.

I see NOTHING good that happens from any of this. It can be said I am overreacting, and just exaggerating, and maybe so. But I have watched all this coming like a slow motion train wreck for about 20 years, and saw a lot of these things coming and tried to warn people. I have been pretty right so far, and I think I will be right in the future. If not, "what's the harm?"

See, I look at larger aspects on the culture, on society. I have to deal in the real world on this stuff and watch how we are all affected.

Sometimes it SUCKS to be right.

MAB

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 10/11/15 04:40 AM.
#1093730 - 10/11/15 08:01 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Marc,

You can very eloquent and persuasive. You have lived this and your words are impassioned and express many truths, and I respect you and hope my talking is not upsetting to you.

I fear that because I want to add footnotes and qualifications into your arguments that you are grouping me into the "many people see nothing wrong with it at all and justify pretty much anything is the result" when the fact is that I agree that illegal downloading does indeed take away from sales. But you kind of slid that into an argument about what Frank Ocean did, which was something else entirely, and then it became about this more general topic of how all things Internet have unraveled the music industry. Okay..that's fine..

But once in a while, it would be nice to hear some solutions. Otherwise, when you talk about a conference that predicted how The Internet would ruin the music business, and then do not pose any solutions, it sounds like you are tacitly saying that the Internet, as it is, needs to be killed or at least changed greatly..and then here's where I get lost--cuz this is just an assumption on my part--I'm assuming that you think that if the Internet was changed greatly, that things might go back to how they were, before the Internet. Are these your feelings? I have to guess, because you seem to want to dwell more on how bad things are, which is fine. But it would be nice to know if that's a kind of death lament, or if behind your lament, you had some ideas about how to change things. That would be rather refreshing.

Sincerely,

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/11/15 08:17 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093734 - 10/11/15 08:45 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Micheal,

I'm sorry. I realize we jump around a lot on things like this and often I am on three or four threads on different sites all at the same time, so I sometimes get confused about where I am on all of them.Many of them discuss the same subjects at different times or when something in a current event might happen.

My total feelings are not all negative or all positive. I am a realist and have to deal with things the way they are and not how I would like them to be, what I think is fair or correct.

The solutions have been going on for a while. After the time I was talking about, record companies, publishers, and the like changed the way they did business and became one stop artist developers. Each hit writer, each publisher, etc. found and developed their own acts, working more on "branding" than any one part. This was touring, merchandising, endorsements, etc. When the money on songs themselves, they shifted the way they did business, focusing on the other aspects of an artists career.
That was the solution there. Circle the wagons, do everything yourself, shut out anything on the outside of your circles.

I've done that myself in my own business and my instruction of others. I shifted my personal applications to teaching and behind the scenes elements of music although I still write songs, still do the same thing. Just shifted the way I am paid. It is up front instead of waiting for a "back end" that doesn't come.

I suggest the same thing to all writers and have done so here dozens of times. Quit thinking about Nashville, Los Angeles and New York. Quit trying to worry about publishers, get with film and television placement agencies and all the things that the Internet promises success with. More of the Brian model of finding local people and promoting them. Stop trying to pitch songs to nameless faceless people and develop a real presence in your community and region, getting practical application, not expecting some "good publishing or management fairy to annoint your songs. Develop your own YOU TUBE and other channels. Do more things yourself and stop expecting an overall big payoff.

Don't expect any more "home runs" and deal with incrementalism. Don't over expect. Work hard at what you do, but stop expecting anyone to come in and do things for you. They won't.

The Frank Ocean situation, sampling, illegal downloading, file sharing, loss of overall money, is not going to stop. It is here. It is best to understand it and be able to not get caught up when it happens. It means you no longer spend a lot of money on demos, trying to get them into some song placement service from someone you don't know and spend money on THEM.

Expect legal issues to cloud what all of this means. Expect lawsuits to clog up the works and do no good. Expect no protection on songs and being able to have much in the way of protection.

Most importantly, do it for the LOVE of creation. Be who you are and do things that mean something to you. Touch people's lives and not worry so much about what the business does. Most of this, about 85% you have absolutely no control over, so don't get too caught up in it.

Help other people achieve their goals and hopefully yours will be achieved at the same time. There are sharks, crooks, schemes and scams. Always have been and always will be. Just try to avoid the damage they can do.

Those would be my solutions. I can;t do a thing about Frank Ocean or any one with that mind set. But I can resolve that I WON'T ever do what he or many others have done. I won't sample, I won't illegally download, I won't take the easy route and just be lazy.

I come to things like this more as an observer as anything else.I don't so much "get upset", as see it, comment on it and then try to see where to avoid it. People are consistentley trying to find out where the business is going, what the future looks like. You can't tell what is going to happen, but you can learn a lot about it by paying attention to what has happened in the past.

Those would be my solutions.

MAB

#1093735 - 10/11/15 09:39 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Marc,

So it sounds like you do accept the way things are, albeit with many reservations, and are with the mainstream in your solutions, which is to take this new reality for what it is and make the best of it. This is a healthy, realistic approach and I am in agreement with you.

I personally would go a little further and say that many of these things were inevitable, and some are even good things, and all the Internet did was speed things up a bit. I believe the Majors, for years, had too much power and had become pretty bloated, before the Internet.

One thing that legal issues do, on the side, is to shed some light on such obscure ideas such as "intellectual property" which as a concept seems pretty clear until we look closely, and then it all falls apart, or at least becomes so complicated as to need copious footnotes and qualifications. I mean, each new medium alters the definition somewhat. Sheet music, then recordings, then Internet--each of these have modified its meaning--and we are just playing catch-up, sometimes using an outdated perception of what "intellectual property" is, in this postmodern world.

It's interesting that what Frank Ocean did gets called "theft" when he took a piece everybody knows and used it, and unless he's really stupid, knew that there would be some commotion over this. After all, The Biz Markie vs Gilbert O'Sullivan case is a salient part of rap's ancient history.

It's more "theft" to me, when a more vulnerable artist with more obscure sound bytes gets sampled and then not credited. That puts the onus on the artist to use sites that do this kind of policing, and that's a lot of work, if you just want to be a creative type.

What Ocean did seems more like an act of defiance and a crafty postmodern publicity stunt--he was challenging our perception of "intellectual property" --knowing it would get attention but maybe not knowing it would be an "epic fail" as to that challenge. In this way, it's not so different from modern art (music, plays, etc.) that "color outside the lines" and likewise challenge us--get us to question the nature of art and (in this case) "intellectual property" and maybe come to a new understanding.

Thank you for spelling out your solutions, etc. At the root is to have a love for what we do. I couldn't agree more, but it would be a tragedy if this wasn't the case, before. Money should never be the reason why we choose a career, and if more were apt to, before, when there was more money spread around, well..maybe that's one more reason for me to temper my feelings about the way things are now.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/11/15 10:17 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1093738 - 10/11/15 11:32 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Michael,

I think we are on the same page. Music is about ADAPTATION, not as much as CHANGE. It all changes, and some things come around in giant circles. When I had mentioned that "No one is making money" I also meant to include a caveat, that there are always people who do make money. There are always people who find a way. There are always innovators.

My problem on the entire Sampling and creative theft is that I just think it is total intellectual and creative laziness. And Frank Ocean's stunt DID work. He got publicity, his ticket sales rise, his "branding" rises,and he gets the reputation for "Sticking it to the rich rock star."

But it is what it is. As you say, I have accepted the way things are, as I always have. When I was an artist, I did everything I could in that capacity. When I got too old for that, I switched to writing, having publishing deals, getting cuts, etc. But when the money drained out of that (AND I WAS ASKED) I turned my attention to teaching and instructing others. Didn't want to do that, just came my way and I adapted. I'm fortunate that people seek me out and ask and pay for my services. Many of my contemporaries, aren't that lucky.

I will always do the same. Hope you are well. Good discussion.

MAB

#1093750 - 10/12/15 10:57 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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Everett Adams  Online Content
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We are in the "me first" generation that figures I should have what I want when I want it and take what I can regardless of who owns it. Morals are not what they use to be. Music is so easy to steal, so why not. Shop lifting intellectual property is so much safer than shop lifting actual items from stores, less chance of getting caught or punished. We've always had white collar crime and blue collar crime, now we have no collar crime, getting bolder all the time and younger all the time. How can todays parents teach their children not to steal, especially music, when they grew up doing the same thing, they would have to admit what they did was wrong.

#1093782 - 10/12/15 10:02 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Everett Adams]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Of course Ocean knew he'd be caught. That's the entire point. Neither he nor his audience care about authenticity. Fame and money are the goals. That's like saying why would Pamela Anderson film that sex tape when she knew it might get out. Landsakes alive! Won't her fans be offended? No...she has no talent and cheap stunts are her bread and butter. Ocean...has...no...talent. or shame. Fame is the end in and of itself.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/12/15 10:05 PM.
#1093806 - 10/13/15 11:32 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Kolstad Offline
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It's no coincidence Henley is taking up this fight, after he was the one who wrote “I saw a dead head sticker on a Cadillac said you can never look back”

Like Michael writes there's been traditions in folk music ect. Long before capitalism developed in 17th century France, music has been part of folklore storytelling traditions, where people learned songs from people they knew, and kept them alive by learning them, performing them, and teach them to the next generations.

But, in the last century, music became a way out of the rut for many people. Music enabled them to make a living in a world that didn't care about their rights. That's the perspective we're coming from now. Rap came out as a unique voice from urban cultures, country used to be rural, but now is more for the middle class and up, if you listen to the content of many lyrics.

So, this story is about a college boy (Henley) and a guy who had to hustle to get by (Ocean), so it's pretty complex. Ocean is still the street hustler, and Henley is standing on his formal rights in the system.

That makes two sides to sympathize with, depending on your own history, understanding and outlook.


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#1093891 - 10/14/15 02:36 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Kolstad]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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"Like Michael writes there's been traditions in folk music ect. Long before capitalism developed in 17th century France, music has been part of folklore storytelling traditions, where people learned songs from people they knew, and kept them alive by learning them, performing them, and teach them to the next generations."

Kolstead, I'm sorry but I really just can't accept that definition in this discussion because it is two very different things. There are really not TWO sides on this. In the past of music, very true, melodies, and songs were passed down through oral traditions from one generation to the next. The Star Spangeled Banner, the American National Anthem evolved from an English drinking song.

That tradition ended when copyright laws were passed, and while their might have been a "traditional melody", there was someone finally credited with presenting that. Mother Maybelle Carter did not invent "The Wildwood Flower" in country music, but was creditited with the creation of it in the modern era.

That is absolutely not what is happening here. This is the outright THEFT (there is no other term for it) of existing MUSIC TRACKS to develop a derivative work with NO PERMISSION at all. That is theft.

HOTEL CALIFORNIA was created over a period of years by Don Felder, who recorded the tracks on a 4 track reel to reel. This was brought to Don Henley and Glen Frey who wrote the lyrics in late 1975. That was recorded over a period of time spending probably over a million dollars to develop, record, package and promote. It was then presented for years with the buying public. Millions were spent in it's development and millions were made in it's presentation.

At NO TIME WHATSOEVER can I find Frank Ocean's name among the track sheet, or the investor list of that song. I am unaware of any of those millions that Frank Ocean paid for. I am unaware of his involvement or invitation from the creators of that song AND THOSE EXACT MUSICAL TRACKS. This is not BORROWING. This is complete theft.

Now as point of reference, the rap and hip hop culture were created from this. The first crossover commercial rap song was "rapper's Delight" in 1977, which was an existing drum and bass loop from the band "QUEEN", whose song "ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST." That became "RAPPERS DELIGHT" which then became "GOOD TIMES" and many songs from the disco, rap and early hip hop eras. Recyling and reusing in that format is standard and should have been dealt with early, but was not.

This is outright theft AGAINST THE COPYRIGHT OWNER with permission being refused and yet used anyway. And this is illegal in any way shape and form. You see I don't do the "awe let the poor young guy be able to do it." Doesn't wash with me. Either in shoplifting, robbery, rape or murder. I don't excuse nor sympathize with it in any way shape and form.

But for the form of this subject, it is pretty black and white, not grey or negotiable. It is THEFT. And in my opinion, if allowed to stand unchallenged will be the end of all copyrights and intellectual property protection at all. That is why it has to be addressed and stopped.

As Michael would say "What are the SOLUTIONS?" On this, you do not allow it. Period. You stop it now and don't allow the conversation to be adapted or diminished. Now that might not happen. Common sense seemingly has left a lot of people and nothing seems to be any standards whatsoever and that might be what is to come.
But for myself, I don't allow it, don't accept it and I rather enjoy watching lawbreakers being called out, challenged,fined and if nessasary jailed. There is a price to be paid.

But for this. No, it's not BORROWING. Period. It is theft.

End of story.

MAB

#1093894 - 10/14/15 02:51 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Copyright Predates the U.S. Constitution. You can Google the STATUTE OF ANNE for a better look. Maybe some people are not aware of Copyright and other protections for intellectual property but it is in the Constitution.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 10/14/15 02:53 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1093895 - 10/14/15 02:55 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Very correct. I was speaking more in terms of RECORDINGS, as it pertains to this particular issue. But you are correct, copyright protections do predate the constitution. More the reason to observe them now.

M

#1094148 - 10/19/15 12:20 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Raleigh, ya'll
Ya see, Marc, your passion and reasoning and explanations in this thread, are why I hope you never die!!!!

An absolutely fascinating, and enlightening, conversation!

Well done, to everyone involved....But that's just my humble opinion.

Thanks!

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1094160 - 10/19/15 07:10 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Actual recordings that are under copyright and used without consent can certainly be considered theft. But the crime is in the "distributing of multiple copies," and the making money and I suppose in the potential "injury" of having "an average listener" think a recording is someone's property when it's really not..when it's actually someone elses. But in the Frank Ocean case no money was made on that project, and the seventeen people that may have thought Frank Ocean wrote that kickin' background track have probably now been corrected. I am sure The Eagles felt little injury, in this last regard. It's also hard to call what Ocean did "theft," since something done that big lights up a room--and a theft in broad daylight with everybody watching is more like "making a statement" and a kind of absurdist or confrontational theater, since it has absolutely no chance of otherwise succeeding as a perpetrated theft..

This is not to say that there aren't a lot of folks using peoples stuff without asking and getting away with it. Why do I suddenly feel like I'm in the middle of a George Carlin routine? Anyway, there is a lot of real theft in show business, but what Ocean did just doesn't measure up by my definition.

But that's where I personally draw the line. If you are not distributing multiple copies or making money on it or making people believe an audio track is yours by a sin of omission, then I think a person should feel free to do what he wants with an audio recording that he has obtained legally. We buy a painting and we take it home..there's no law against defacing or adding to or erasing or getting interactive with it--sometimes it's even called art. Check your Marcel Duchamp.. There is no law that says "you are only purchasing the rights to look at this and hang it in your room." Likewise with audio recordings. Aural canvases, and there's no law that says "If you fold, spindle, or mutilate these recordings you have purchased, you may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment, etc..." I find it interesting that some have a hard time with this idea. When the law decides to intervene and completely and lastingly define how we are to use media, art, etc., well..then I would fear that we would be in big trouble.

If you ever watched the TV series "The Wire" you may have come away with the feeling that city life is just doomed to fail, because everybody wants a piece of a pie that is just never big enough. SO if I was "The Mayor" and had to decide where to "throw the money" to create change, I'd start with hate crimes and serial killers and big drug cartels and whoa let's not forget education..you feel me? To me, sample theft is a crime, but being realistic, it polices itself to a good extent. Major offenders are found out because they're major. Let the copyright office and/or BMI and ASCAP and interested record labels butterfly into some newfangled pro-active policing organizations that look after their clients and vigilantly seek out those who use samples illegally. That should be part of what their future job entails, and I'd be all for it.

And if there are those that insist it's ALL theft, I would add perhaps so, but some are rather innocuous forms of it. Let's be realistic. It's human nature, and an artist's nature to experiment. The savvy ones do it without breaking any laws.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/19/15 07:25 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094191 - 10/19/15 02:21 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Micheal,

I'm sorry, the "making no money" argument is universal silliness. First of all, it was downloaded over 800,000 times. His profile went sky high. His appearances exploded. He sells merchandise with his version of the song. He still does the song live. His "brand" was enhanced by it all. That is the misleading part about all of this. If there is not a "direct" correlation with the actual song (which is the problem with ALL MUSIC NOW, it is not DIRECTLY selling much of anything. It is drawing attention to an artists BRAND.) there is an INDIRECT correlation. And many many more than the "17 people" became aware of him through this.

You see, I just reject the entire premise of "There was no money so who was harmed?" That is the same things said by the first down loaders in the 90's. That was the same thing said by PIRATE BAY" in Sweden. That is the exact same argument made by anyone who simply views everything in terms of grey.

Sorry, just doesn't wash with me. Not going to ever. Using anyone's material without permission for commercial gain, (and if it was not for commercial gain WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?)is THEFT. Sorry, just not going to waver on that one. "USING EXISTING RECORDINGS of other people's work has nothing to do with EXPERIMENTATION. Nothing at all, nada. Sorry. NOPE. Doing things that YOU create, fail, try again, fail again, and finally get right, is EXPERIMENTING. Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period. No grey area at all.

I've said about all I'm going to on this one. We're on different sides, period. The only thing I can say to you is it WILL affect you, actually already has. If you ever try to play songs for a publisher and they "won't accept unsolicited material", if you ever try to get your songs to someone who is a song plugger or film and television libraries, if you ever have difficulty getting songs past just yourself, it is affecting you already. You just don't see it.
It is not the only reason, but just one more of many reasons that have led to an absolute confused industry. It affects everyone.

MAB

#1094206 - 10/19/15 08:12 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc,

You present a convincing argument concerning Ocean. I underestimate the "upped his brand" aspect. But if upping one's brand can happen simply by stealing and getting caught and paying whatever one must pay (injuries) for not doing things through legal channels, what is to stop self professed gangstas from doing this, other than financial penalties, which they may consider negligible, considering the "up" in profile which they get in return? It's an exploitation of a system that cannot prevent this, and a big part of why they call themselves gangstas.

You say "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period."

Then little Sally committed a crime when she cut up Teen Vogue and made a collage out of the ads and posted it on the refrigerator, and Sally turned in her brother Joey for slowing down "Smoke On the Water" so he could learn the famous riff, and dad is a major offender for using (legal) software to remove vocals from Madonna records, cuz his wife gets a kick out of it when he sings "Like A Virgin" to her, in the car on the way home from the grocery store.

You say "Using anyone's material without permission for commercial gain, (and if it was not for commercial gain WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?)is THEFT."

Specifically, this part: "and if not for commercial gain, why do it in the first place" I believe to be a rather shortsighted statement. You are, in blanket fashion, saying there are absolutely NO reasons to use someone's recording without permission other than for commercial reasons, when in truth, I could name thousands and still not mention "fair use."

By and large, commercial gain is not the main reason why most people interact with existing art (music, paintings, etc.). You just don't hear about them because they are not breaking any laws cuz they are not distributing it to the masses. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that there are not a bazillion righteous reasons people "misuse" art. Even a rapper who rips various recordings for his own "music" but just does it for "fun" is not committing a crime, in the eyes of the law. You want to treat recordings like they are some sacrosanct thing, period, and they are NOT. They are just recordings, from ABBA, all the way down to ZZ Top. And if you take ABBA vocals off their recordings and remove the vocals from ZZ Top records, so as to put ABBA on top, well that's one more way people use samples--creating "mash-ups" (without permission) --and if I simply play it for friends, no law has been broken. It is simply not theft in the eyes of the law.

It sounds like you want the law to treat audio recordings like software, which is kind of ironic, coming from you. The law simply does not say you cannot alter a recording or use any part or all of it, even--it says do whatever you want at home. That is the law, period. You may feel free to argue how you think theft in these regards should be defined. I am simply telling you how it is.

If you want audio recordings to be made inviolate and untouchable (outside of just listening), then make them tamper proof and don't let people keep them en masse in their homes and PCs where they can "touch" and "violate" them! But that's never gonna happen, and not what anyone really wants to happen, either.

If ANY use of recordings (other than listening) is theft, is a crime, then so is any use of visual images and moving images. But lo, I can feel free to buy prints of modern art and make collages with them if I just want to hang them at home, or show friends over the internet. So it goes with aural canvases--audio recordings.

If you carry your thoughts out to the end, you end up with an extremely brittle police state, where innocuous uses of media are verboten. I would love to see this explored in science-fiction. It would be interesting, and ultimately, a satire on the impossibility and absurdity of the idea of implementing such a police state.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/19/15 10:56 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094212 - 10/19/15 11:25 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Michael, I'm sorry. I don't agree with one of your points. None of your examples, a kid cutting up pictures, someone slowing something down to learn it or doing a "karaoke track" (which are liscenced, pertain to this at all) you are just throwing up non-sensical examples that don't pertain to any of this and frankly don't make any sense.

I'm sorry man. I think you are just not going to see this. I hate that because you otherwise seem pretty sensible. This one just seems to be beyond you and I can't explain it to you. Too bad.

MAB

#1094213 - 10/20/15 12:01 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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I've been following this, and Mike, it sound's like apples and oranges to me. Marc keeps saying "commercial gain", and you counter with cutting pictures out of teen magazines and having fun at home with music that you bought. No comparison. What's the argument? You're taking this literally. Why don't you get the gist?

#1094214 - 10/20/15 12:01 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Michael, I'm sorry. I don't agree with one of your points. None of your examples, a kid cutting up pictures, someone slowing something down to learn it or doing a "karaoke track" (which are liscenced, pertain to this at all) you are just throwing up non-sensical examples that don't pertain to any of this and frankly don't make any sense.

I'm sorry man. I think you are just not going to see this. I hate that because you otherwise seem pretty sensible. This one just seems to be beyond you and I can't explain it to you. Too bad.

MAB


Marc,

It's not nonsensical as I am responding to you saying "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period." I gave absurd examples to show how absurd your statement is. According to your statement, all three family members are in violation, as your definition of theft ("Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period.") is quite clear.

And you further say that the ONLY reason anyone would ever use another's work without permission is for commercial gain, to which my absurd examples also address.

The law makes it simple. It says you can basically do what you want with recordings (and songs, books, art, etc.) as long as it's done for fun, at home, and only shared with friends. You disagree, but you are disagreeing with the law, not me. So perhaps you feel that the law and the way things are--are not sensible, and that's fine, but please don't give me a cognitive dissonance ("I think you are just not going to see this") that I just don't have.

Just trying to understand where you stand, Marc. Sometimes what you say seems to suggest that you consider home offenders to be thieves as well. I am not sure how I feel! Cuz it's a slippery slope..if I create something amazing at home, but with unauthorized stuff..it feels like then there would be a strong temptation to go beyond sharing it with just friends..I am just trying to clarify and understand what you in fact do believe, cuz in all honesty, it seems to shift a bit from post to post.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 07:24 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094215 - 10/20/15 12:32 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Originally Posted by ben willis
I've been following this, and Mike, it sound's like apples and oranges to me. Marc keeps saying "commercial gain", and you counter with cutting pictures out of teen magazines and having fun at home with music that you bought. No comparison. What's the argument? You're taking this literally. Why don't you get the gist?


Hi Ben,

It would be apples and oranges, except Marc is not consistent with what he says. When you say, "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period" That period means a lot. It certainly negates other possible uses of recorded work. You don't say "period" unless you mean EXACTLY what you said.

And when Marc DID mention commercial gain, he quickly negated that by saying "what other reasons could there be?" And that is tantamount to saying again, that all irregular use of audio recordings (without permission) is theft, since it can ONLY be for commercial reasons.

I would be happy and relieved if we were talking about two different things, but alas, I don't think we are, not entirely. Marc seems to be very uncomfortable with the idea that folks can do whatever they want to with media of all kinds and recordings specifically, inside their own homes, for fun and friends. Hell, I do! It's an unsettling thought. I am just trying to figure out if there's a pre-existing bias against those who would use unauthorized audio at home for fun and only with friends. If so, some might find it would taint his opinion a bit.

Also, do realize it's fun to debate these things cuz they are interesting, complicated issues. I think we are being respectful of each other.

I find it interesting where "the law" decides to draw the line. Oft times it seems like a compromise that things are the way they are, but better that than creating laws that simply can't be enforced.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 06:46 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094216 - 10/20/15 12:50 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Hey Mike, I got Marc's argument as "commercial gain" from the beginning of this thread. Unless you just want to argue that point, I don't get the comparison. Yes you can manipulate paid for music for yourself and your friends. When you use a copyrighted track that someone else wrote and recorded, skew it to fit your own version, and distribute it to make money we all know it's illegal.

Karaoke doesn't even use original tracks, but I bet they pay for a license to produce them.

#1094218 - 10/20/15 01:17 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Hi Ben,

I hadn't gotten that Marc's argument was about commercial gain, and when I did ask that he clarify in a recent post, he made two statements that basically said ALL use of uncleared samples and recordings was theft. At that point, he seemed to be clarifying his feelings about uncleared samples, in general: "It's all theft because why else would anyone use recordings without permission, other than for commercial gain." If he wants to take those statements back or amend them, that's fine.

It would make me happy to know that he has no bias against those who just play with audio for fun and with friends, cuz he seemed to indicate otherwise a couple posts back. It wouldn't be a big deal if he did. I probably do, too. I have just been trying to understand his position on those that "do it" legally, like the young wannabe rappers who share their beats and raps with friends. It would help me understand Marc's position of the bigger picture.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 07:13 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094219 - 10/20/15 01:59 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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OK Mike, I leave the thread back to you and Marc.

#1094239 - 10/20/15 12:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Mike, I am sorry if you cannot read the things I say and not understand. I am pretty thorough. I started this thread. Frank Ocean. which is what we are talking about, used an existing music track from the EAGLES HOTEL CALIFORNIA for COMMERICAL GAIN. He had downloads of the song availible on YOU TUBE. I don;t believe ONE WORD that he didn't make money off of those existing tracks. He was told to "CEASE AND DESIST" and told the Eagles to screw themselves. At the same time he is a COMMERCIAL RAP ARTIST. His brand is doing MUSIC and performing live and recorded. That is COMMERICAL.

That is what I am talking about. Exploiting existing music tracks for your own personal gain. Karaoke is not involved in that because THOSE SONGS ARE LICENCED through the publishers of those songs. They are PAID for them. And they are RE-RECORDED, not the actual music tracks of the original songs. In Nashville we do thousands of those. Most of the publishers of many of those songs are IN NASHVILLE. I have sung many GUIDE TRACKS(which are the lead vocals to guide a singer through the song.) But I did not attempt to use that for COMMERCIAL gain. And yes, I have even sung Karaoke tracks myself, to give to friends. I PAID for those. I didn't not SELL THEN.

Using hit songs for things like YOU TUBE videos, slide shows, etc. is very standard practice. IF the people who do that reach a certain amount of spins, they are able to charge advertising rates. At that point they are supposed to licence the song from the publishers and the publishers can refuse, which is why often you will be given a link to a video and it is taken down due to COPYRIGHT ISSUES. That means that YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO USE SONGS FOR ANYTHING YOU WANT TO.

You put in things like a "little girl posting cut up pictures of a magazine and doing a collage." As long as she doesn't put that collage up in a major art gallery or charge an enormous amount of money for prints or that collage" (which also happens) there is no problem.But the second they go into COMMERCIAL uses, they are in trouble.

The "slowing down SMOKE ON THE WATER" is the same. LEARNING a song is part of the process and has nothing to do with this subject. If that guitar player wanted to record a version of SMOKE ON THE WATER, that he paid the licencing fees and got permission from the writers and publishers there is no problem.

But EVEN if there is no money involved, there STILL CAN BE PROBLEMS. I'm going to demonstrate this by giving you a REAL WORLD example that just happened to see if this can get you to understand.

A friend and co-writer of mine is JIM PETEREK. Jim wrote "VEHICLE (FRIENDLY STRANGER IN THE BLACK SEDAN,) HOLD ON LOOSLY, SO CAUGHT UP IN YOU, and many many other rock standards. Another song he wrote and had HUGE HIT on is EYE OF THE TIGER, from SURVIVOR, a huge hit from the 80's and the ROCKY III soundtrack.

In Kentucky we just had a huge controversy from a woman, Kim Davis, who is a court officer, who has refused to issue marraige licences for gay people. She went to jail for five days for contempt of court. Upon her release, there was a huge rally for her outside the courthouse and Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee was there. When she came out, they played the song EYE OF THE TIGER.

They had done this without Jim's permission and Jim was VERY UPSET because he is VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF GAY MARRAIGE. But people who did not know got the impression that he was on the other side and started sending him nasty emails, and all kinds of threats. He got an attorney to issue a CEASE AND DESIST order and they had to stop using the song. This has happened with BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, and many others where political campains and politicians have used songs without permission.

Now there was NO MONEY involved. Where is the harm? Well, suddenly being associated with a cause you DON'T BELIEVE in and because NO ONE READS BEYOND THE SOUND BITE, you can be dragged into something you had no desire or intention to be in.

STILL THINK THERE IS NO HARM?

Because I am telling you right now, that this is going to get nasty. There is going to be someone HURT or killed over something like this, most likely the first time one of these songs are associated with someone who defames ISLAM. And Mike, when this happens, I am going to be asking YOU "WHAT'S THE HARM?"

You want to know how I stand? There it is. I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me. The rappers were wrong to do it in the first place, producers are wrong to allow it and writers and publishers invite idiocy and problems when they do it. But they do it. Doesn't make it right or even make sense. It is NOT experimentation. That is something you do with your OWN music.

People do it, and if they are going to do it for fun, instruction or whatever, I understand it. Don't nessasarily agree with it, and it is NOTHING I WOULD EVER DO. But that is not my business.

But taking EXISTING MUSIC TRACKS, writing YOUR OWN SEPARATE LYRICS particularly unasked or uninvited, is NOT THAT. It is THEFT, PARTICULARLY WHEN USED IN COMMERICAL applications.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

MAB

#1094271 - 10/20/15 07:10 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc,

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
You want to know how I stand? There it is. I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me. The rappers were wrong to do it in the first place, producers are wrong to allow it and writers and publishers invite idiocy and problems when they do it. But they do it. Doesn't make it right or even make sense. It is NOT experimentation. That is something you do with your OWN music.

People do it, and if they are going to do it for fun, instruction or whatever, I understand it. Don't necessarily agree with it, and it is NOTHING I WOULD EVER DO. But that is not my business.
MAB


So is making a collage from various small bytes of unauthorized but commercial images, in your opinion, laziness also? Because there are probably some collage artists that would take offense at that. They probably work as hard as artists who use other mediums. ""I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." seems to me to be a rather narrow way of seeing what collage artists do. Hip-hop music tracks are, for the most part, the aural equivalent of collage art. I could point out the similarities, but I think you get that idea.


As to "where's the harm?" concerning what I guess is considered fair use in political campaigns..or are they just using the audio with absolutely no legal foundation? I agree, that could get ugly. There should be a footnote to the current law that says fair use does not apply when you are using the song in a biased context. Same addendum for compulsory licensing, since it only talks about how that license is void if the words or music are altered, I believe.

As to the song that would invoke extremist Islams' dander. Why open that can of worms? Does Salmon Rushdie regret his satirical book? Are you saying curb our creative expression because of fear of physical harm from fringe groups? Hard to know, since you simply are saying "watch out, this is gonna happen, and see how there's very real HARM here" and yes I get that..maybe it should still be up to the individual to decide if it's worth living in fear over? Or if you would decree law, where would you draw the line? Words and ideas are misunderstood in song lyrics, all the time. Only a third of the world understands the use of irony. But I am only mentioning this stuff cuz you did.

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Mike, I am sorry if you cannot read the things I say and not understand. I am pretty thorough.


I don't understand why you felt the need to regurgitate everything you said. I am sorry you felt the need to do that. My recent flurry of posts specifically address these two statements of yours:

Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period.

and

Using anyone's material without permission for commercial gain, (and if it was not for commercial gain WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?)is THEFT

And they seemed to indicate a predisposed bias against ALL kinds of unauthorized use of recordings. I simply wanted you to clarify where you stood on the LEGAL kinds of using unauthorized recordings, since you seemed to lump everything together in those statements.

You stated quite unequivocally that there can be NO other reasons PERIOD to use unauthorized recordings. If not arrogant, it's at least extremely dismissive of the many marginal groups of folks who actually DO experiment with audio, and all the groups of people who do have reasons other than commercial gain for using such audio, most of which are more in the "grey area" than the absurd examples that I used.

But please try to understand why I used absurd examples. I was confused by your over-the-top statements. You claim to not exaggerate, but damn it, you do, and sometimes it's hard to "read" beyond those exaggerated statements to know how you really feel, since it's those statements that carry so much weight, so please forgive me if I got those statements wrong and you are (reluctantly) okay with the boy cutting up James Brown records to make beats for his rap, and the mash-up artists that use software to remove or isolate vocals and then mix and mingle various bands together--provided they keep everything on the home front and just share with friends. Good to know. But I hope you can see why I was confused? You don't think those statements could make someone feel otherwise?

Please don't imagine me to have taken a stance on any of this, I am still in the gathering knowledge stage. I just know when something sounds really wrong to me, and then I feel the need to speak up. I'm really a pretty meek person, and am totally frightened by people who seem very opinionated and voice those opinions in a fierce manner, and probably cuz I remember that my dad used to do that back in the seventies and scared the bejesus out of me and my mom. But I realize that's not you. Still..understand that I GOT every bit of what you said, all through your postings. I did not misunderstand anything. I was trying to clarify your stance as to "the bigger picture." Thanks for sharing your feelings about sampling in general, cuz it's easier for me to connect the dots to your strong feelings about Frank Ocean et al, now.

Sometimes "intellectual property" should be shared, without flinching, in my opinion, like when it comes to patents on life saving drugs that only the rich can afford. But that's truly apples and oranges.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/20/15 07:15 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094279 - 10/20/15 09:14 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Very much so. I think I've said all I'm going to on this.

#1094281 - 10/20/15 11:33 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
...I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me...

MAB


So, you're saying that Michael Jackson, The Beatles, Johnny Cash, Beck, and the list goes on with some pretty impressive names all at one point said "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID."

All of them used "samples" in some of their recordings. Not sure if I would dare to call them creatively lazy or they're not creative worth a damn.

However, I do get your point for the commercial gain and it's wrong if not cleared... But that statement you made above is bold and in my opinion not valid.

Do I use samples? No, unless asked to do it by the artist or his/her label/management and cleared for use. However, I still don't think it's wrong for others to use samples in their recordings if done legally. I also don't think they are necessarily lazy or not creative neither (see list above) - some of the greatest hits in history sampled some parts of the song.


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#1094282 - 10/20/15 11:45 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Songcat, how exactly did they use samples? That didn't even come into being until the 2000's with computer technology. This conversation has gotten so ludacris I cannot be a part of it anymore. Enough. Use whatever you want to however you want to whenever you want to. I don't care.

MAB

#1094283 - 10/21/15 12:04 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Jackson "Beat It" - "The intro is taken note for note from a demo LP released the year before, called "The Incredible Sounds of Synclavier II" first published in 1981 by Denny Jaeger Creative Services, Inc and sold by New England Digital, makers of the Synclavier."

So, re-playing a piece of music note for note in a commerical recording when optaining the license is fine, but using a sample for a commercial recording when optaining the license is not fine? It's old school sampling lol but bottom line the same thing.

Beck "Loser": "The song's drum track is sampled from a Johnny Jenkins cover of Dr. John's "I Walk on Gilded Splinters" from the 1970 album Ton-Ton Macoute!"

Well, that song was recorded in '92 while I was still playing with little toy cars - well before the 2000s.

J. Cash "Folsom Prison Blues"" "Cash took the melody for the song ... from Gordon Jenkins's 1953 Seven Dreams concept album, specifically the song "Crescent City Blues".

Same argument as for the Michael Jackson example.

"The history of sampling goes back to the 60s and 70s, before digital technology came into use and sounds were still recorded and played on tape. Tape had very high audio quality, and could be manipulated in many different ways, as you could cut it and stick it together again."

Last edited by songcat; 10/21/15 12:12 AM.

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#1094312 - 10/21/15 09:07 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Come to think about it, The Beatles did use carnival organ music for the song "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite" that was taped from vinyl records and spliced together. They also recorded a BBC broadcast of "King Lear" at the end of "I Am The Walrus". I don't know if they paid license fees or not. Songcat is right. I don't know anything about the other examples he brought up. I still think you guys are over-complicating Marc's original point and taking it too literally.

#1094313 - 10/21/15 09:31 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Originally Posted by ben willis
Come to think about it, The Beatles did use carnival organ music for the song "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite" that was taped from vinyl records and spliced together. They also recorded a BBC broadcast of "King Lear" at the end of "I Am The Walrus". I don't know if they paid license fees or not. Songcat is right. I don't know anything about the other examples he brought up. I still think you guys are over-complicating Marc's original point and taking him too literally.


Hi Ben,

I think it's important to say exactly what one means when dealing with legal issues like these. I don't think Marc would disagree, nor think we should take him LESS literally?

And it was very important to know Marc's feelings on the LEGAL use of unauthorized samples, and sampling in general. In a sense Marc has put Ocean on trial and found him guilty. But if it was a real trial, and Marc was being questioned by lawyers for jury duty, the minute Marc expresses his feelings about sampling in general, he would be asked to go home. Why? Because Ocean would not get a fair trial if everyone on the jury thought sampling was lazy, etc. Same thing if Marc was called in as an "expert witness" to talk about sampling to the jury. Cross-examination would bring out his contemptuousness for sampling in general, and I imagine they would end up striking his testimony from the record.

I am not responding to get Marc riled up again. In fact, I've been very depressed that I got under his skin. We agree on most of what was discussed here. I conceded that he was probably RIGHT as far as Frank Ocean goes. I did. I meant it, too. When I'm wrong, I can admit it. And furthermore, I am very sorry I upset him, and hope he accepts my apologies.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/21/15 09:37 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094320 - 10/21/15 10:55 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: ben willis]  
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Originally Posted by ben willis
Come to think about it, The Beatles did use carnival organ music for the song "Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite" that was taped from vinyl records and spliced together. They also recorded a BBC broadcast of "King Lear" at the end of "I Am The Walrus". I don't know if they paid license fees or not. Songcat is right. I don't know anything about the other examples he brought up. I still think you guys are over-complicating Marc's original point and taking it too literally.


I actually took the time to read through the entire thread as I thought it was super interesting. Some of the arguments that were brought up had some valid points on both sides and I totally agree that some of Marc's points were taken too literally.

But, when he said "I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me..."

That was pretty clear and it seems like he "literally" means just that, so I thought I'd chime in.

In an earlier post on the thread he said: "When someone is correct, no matter, who it is, that should be pointed out." - again, I totally agree with him, there is actually a shed load of things I agree on with Marc.

However, since I agree with the above statement I also think that 'When someone is wrong about something, no matter, who it is, that should be pointed out as well'.

I'm not saying Marc is wrong about his opinion about sampling (it's an opinion, there is no right or wrong with opinions), but if he really means his "using samples means one is talentless" statement literally, I will point out that he is wrong about calling The Beatles for instance talentless and lazy unless again, it's his opinion about The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Beck and countless others. I'm just afraid that we're left with no talented artists on earth if that's the case lol.


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#1094323 - 10/22/15 02:23 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Ben and Songcat,

Okay guys. I respect your opinion so I will own taking Marc too literally. smile

Please realize, though, that this was the very first thing I said to Marc, in my first post to him, that I "basically agreed with him, except for all the exaggerating," to which he replied that no, they weren't exaggerations and he wasn't exaggerating. On more than one occasion, Marc basically instructed me to take him literally, in this fashion. So, you know, I kinda feel like a patsy.

But this is all water under a bridge over troubled molars. smile

Since Marc's done with this thread and not here to defend himself, I should probably bow out, too.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/22/15 02:25 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094378 - 10/22/15 10:26 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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MidniteBob Offline
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Raleigh, ya'll
Ya know,
all told...

This world...or at least mine...is better off for all that I've learned here.

Thanks All...

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1094467 - 10/24/15 01:22 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: MidniteBob]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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I can't believe I came back here but I did.you are still talking VERY VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. "Sound effect records' like the Caliope sounds the BEATLES used, were in the EMI SOUND EFFECT LIBRARY and had been recorded over the decades for use on EMI PROJECTS. They PAID FOR THAT IN IN MANY CASES CREATED IT THEMSELVES. The Beatles recorded FOR EMI. George Martin was PAID by EMI.

The "Michael Jackson" and Johnny Cash examples don't hold up either. "Borrowing an existing melody from another song or RECREATING that song is something THEY PAID FOR. Almost EVERY SONG BORROWS FROM OTHER SONGS. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION.

This is the whole handed lifting of existing musical recordings of other artists. You can go back to a court ruling of "gilbert O' Sullivan's "Alone again Naturally" that was sampled AND SUED rapper Biz Markie, http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2009/biz-markie-gets-the-copyright-smackdown/

This is not a gray area guys. I'm sorry. You keep throwing up examples that have nothing to do with this subject.
Song Cat, if you are a CREATIVE person, I don't see what the need to openly use ANYTHING FROM ANYONE ELSE in an OPEN MANNER.

The problem I have constantly with writers that go on and on and on and on about COPYRIGHTS AND STEALING SONGS are that many things are NOT COPYRIGHTABLE. All these songs sound the same, borrow from each other. But that is NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, and the frustration comes from you guys seemingly not able to understand that. I have cited personal examples of friends where using songs without permission have caused enormous personal and career damage. But it simply doesn't seem to sink in.

I don't know why I come back to this, it is just something that sticks so bad in my craw because of what we are having to deal with in the overall entertainment world. And it is said I am exaggerating. That is what bothers me. This is NOT exageration. It is real life and it is happening right in front of your eyes.

MAB

#1094468 - 10/24/15 01:57 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Yeah,
I have read a few things that don't add up but gets tossed around. Someone once posted that Pistol Packing Mama covered by Bing Crosby was the one that made the hit on it. Sorry but Al Dexter, if I remember correctly had the hit and Bing Covered it. Someone posted that The Wilburn Brothers father gave Webb Pierce his break and later Webb recipicated by helping the Wilburn Brothers. A stretch if there ever was one. Never heard of the guy that is supposed to have helped Johnny Cash until now. And someone decided that Hank Locklin was an Irish Tenor.


Ray E. Strode
#1094488 - 10/24/15 11:56 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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songcat Offline
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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
I can't believe I came back here but I did.you are still talking VERY VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. "Sound effect records' like the Caliope sounds the BEATLES used, were in the EMI SOUND EFFECT LIBRARY and had been recorded over the decades for use on EMI PROJECTS. They PAID FOR THAT IN IN MANY CASES CREATED IT THEMSELVES. The Beatles recorded FOR EMI. George Martin was PAID by EMI.

The "Michael Jackson" and Johnny Cash examples don't hold up either. "Borrowing an existing melody from another song or RECREATING that song is something THEY PAID FOR. Almost EVERY SONG BORROWS FROM OTHER SONGS. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION.

This is the whole handed lifting of existing musical recordings of other artists. You can go back to a court ruling of "gilbert O' Sullivan's "Alone again Naturally" that was sampled AND SUED rapper Biz Markie, http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2009/biz-markie-gets-the-copyright-smackdown/

This is not a gray area guys. I'm sorry. You keep throwing up examples that have nothing to do with this subject.
Song Cat, if you are a CREATIVE person, I don't see what the need to openly use ANYTHING FROM ANYONE ELSE in an OPEN MANNER.

The problem I have constantly with writers that go on and on and on and on about COPYRIGHTS AND STEALING SONGS are that many things are NOT COPYRIGHTABLE. All these songs sound the same, borrow from each other. But that is NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, and the frustration comes from you guys seemingly not able to understand that. I have cited personal examples of friends where using songs without permission have caused enormous personal and career damage. But it simply doesn't seem to sink in.

I don't know why I come back to this, it is just something that sticks so bad in my craw because of what we are having to deal with in the overall entertainment world. And it is said I am exaggerating. That is what bothers me. This is NOT exageration. It is real life and it is happening right in front of your eyes.

MAB


Look MAB, I don't want to come across as rude or anything, I just want to inform folks about things I know a thing or two just like yourself.

Let me clarify a few things:

"The "Michael Jackson" and Johnny Cash examples don't hold up either. "Borrowing an existing melody from another song or RECREATING that song is something THEY PAID FOR."

- Well, Cash didn't pay for it and ended up in court about the song (or they settled outside of court) just like someone who uses a sample without paying for it.

"...if you are a CREATIVE person, I don't see what the need to openly use ANYTHING FROM ANYONE ELSE in an OPEN MANNER."

- MAB, if you're a creative person, why would you copy someone else's song note for note openly? I never said sampling is good or bad - I personally am not a big fan of it and stay away from it. But who am I saying "no" if a client wants it and cleared the sample? Who am I judging people creating art from art if they pay for it and do it legally?

You said in an earlier post that sampling didn't start until the 2000s. What about the Beck example? The song I mentioned uses drum samples - and was recorded in '92! You were clearly wrong about your statement that sampling only started 15 years ago.

Now, fair enough for your Beatles example, but come on, you say using a cleared sample is bad, but replaying a song note by note is okay when it's cleared? You got to be kidding? It's the same thing - the original creator AGREED to it. If he or she did not agree to it, both things are wrong, sampling or copying/replaying/borrowing or whatever else you want to call it.

You know there are many smart things you say about songwriting, the industry in general (at least the Nashville scene - not so much about other markets) and so on. But even you're wrong at times and it doesn't hurt to admit it ;-)

And now in all honesty, I did five minutes of research the other day and found four examples of sampling from non hip hop or rap artists. Well, you now call three of them "borrowing" and not sampling - fair enough. Still leaves me with one example of sampling from a non hip hop artist that used samples well before the 2000s. I'll do another five minutes of research and we'll be able to add another one… Another five minutes of research and we'll add another one… This can go on and on.

Bottom line - sampling is not wrong if done legally with a license from the original creator. Same goes for "borrowing" and replaying a song note for note. Not wrong if the permission is there. No permission = bad in both cases!


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#1094513 - 10/25/15 07:13 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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I did another 5 minutes of research and we can add some names to the "list of untalented and lazy artists" because we all know:

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette

I think "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me.
MAB


All of the artists below (and their producers/co-writers) used CLEARED samples in some of their songs.

Mary J Blidge
Foster The People
Christina Aguilera
Lily Allen
Janet Jackson
Lana Del Rey
Jason Derulo
Mariah Carey
U2
Fall Out Boy
George Michael
Gotye

And the list goes on but my five minutes are up.


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#1094562 - 10/26/15 04:32 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Wow. You really just don't get it do you? This entire thread is about UNAUTHORIZED USAGE OF EXISTING SONGS. I guess that just doesn't factor in at all does it Songcat? Guess we are just on different pages.

I really am done with this now. Sorry I don't speak your language.

MAB

#1094590 - 10/27/15 03:45 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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It's true, I'm sure you don't speak my languages - but this thread is in English if I'm not completely mistaken and if you only talk about the "UNAUTHORIZED USAGE OF EXISTING SONGS" then your harsh and very broad statement should read - my added words are in ():

"I think (UNAUTHORIZED) "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID (WITHOUT GETTING THE PERMISSION)." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me."

Sorry Marc, but you say A but mean B. No wonder we're not on the same page. And, reading through this whole thread, seems like I'm not alone to "just not getting it".

The statement you made reads very clear to me. But, just to get it what you're saying: When someone samples with permission, he's creative. When someone samples without permission, he's not? That makes sense lol.

Once more, bottom line is: Doing it with permission is okay and I don't see any problem with it if someone does it. Many great artists in ALL GENRES have done it. Doing it without permission is horribly bad. Glad we agree on that part, but I believe we did from the moment I joined this conversation.

Last edited by songcat; 10/27/15 05:19 AM.

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#1094620 - 10/27/15 05:09 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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Following Marc's logic concerning his "creative laziness" quote, this quote:

"I think (UNAUTHORIZED) "SAMPLING" is the ultimate in creative laziness. It is saying "I'M NOT CREATIVE WORTH A DAMN, SO I'LL JUST USE SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE DID (WITHOUT GETTING THE PERMISSION)." There is no one bit of explanation that excuses it with me."

Then it follows..

1) A guy who uses (cleared/authorized) sitar samples and loops is lazy because he does not buy and learn to play the sitar, or hire a sitar player. Insert any instrument in place of sitar. This is no different than saying you are lazy if you drive 20 miles to work instead of walking. Cleared, authorized loops and samples are simply tools to help expedite projects in this post industrial age.

2) The guy with no hands who lives in Montana and knows no guitar players is simply lazy for not learning to play the guitar with his toes.

I could continue, there are as many reasons to use samples and loops as there are people. Most are not from laziness.

Songcat's research only skims the surface of creative artists who use them.

Marc, you are entitled to your opinion, but honestly? In my opinion it puts a big, hairy EGG on your face, that will be there until the moment you admit that you are wrong on this branch of conversation that you commented on profusely.

You start or choose to continue a branch of conversation, then scold us when we comment on what you said in that branch, and then say we have problems following you for not sticking to the original tree trunk, and it's simply because you seem to have a problem admitting when you are wrong. I hope you enjoy the smell of rotten egg.

Am I taking you "too literally" here, Marc? If so, then that means that what you said is an exaggeration, which it would be very kind for you to admit to. Just like saying "samples are not interactive playthings" or "Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period." It is not up to us to qualify your statements, but that is what we end up doing, since you paint in such broad strokes with binary all/nothing statements without qualifying them. Ironically enough it seems lazy on your part!

By the way, song-length samples like Ocean/Eagles and Markie/O'Sullivan's (which I mentioned several posts ahead of you!)..this accounts for less than one percent of how samples are used, cleared or otherwise. Most are one, two, or four bars in length, and then looped to flow with the music. Just saying.

Also, in a sense Songcat, myself, and half the JPFers who contribute to the MP3 forum use cleared samples. Virtual instruments are composed of thousands of samples that are arranged to play on a keyboard and give the illusion of that particular instrument. I love my virtual instruments and they are the backbone of most of my personal recordings. For some reason, virtual instruments remind me of a Steven Wright joke, "'I have a map of the United States... Actual size. It says, 'Scale: 1 mile = 1 mile." Good virtual instruments are like that: they employ a sample for every possible articulation, nuance and volume of an instrument's pallet. As you can imagine, virtual violins can run into several gigabytes of material.

BIAB has "real tracks" which myself and many JPFers employ in much of our music making. Are we all lazy, Marc?

BIAB/Real Tracks consists of thousands of musical phrases that are transformed according to one's chord choices, and assembled by the software with no waiting. BIAB/Real Tracks helps expedite projects in a big way, though there are drawbacks to this software such as unwanted repetitions of the same phrase, but that's a conversation for another thread entirely.

Marc, you're a good guy, and your knowledge and wisdom concerning the Nashville scene, in all its minutiae, is unsurpassed, and I have no qualm with you beyond these few tiny issues. smile

In other areas, perhaps your expertise is a bit less? There is absolutely no shame in admitting when you are wrong.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/27/15 10:01 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094640 - 10/28/15 11:00 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Mike. Yes, you are very lazy if you require samples to make your music. And you are even more lazy when you can't stay on subject.The subject of this is very clear and very distinct. You don't understand it ,can't make your case so you drift. you drift to a thousand things that have nothing to do with anything and when I refute them you change the language and the subject. It wasn't about SAMPLES to begin with but you force it to go there with is not on subject.

Egg on my face. You know kid, I really couldn't care less what you think about me or what constitute "egg on my face" whatever that means. Who the HELL are you to question me at all? Go learn to stay on subject, grow up and learn something.

Yes, you are lazy. Incredibly lazy.

MAB

#1094651 - 10/28/15 01:12 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Um, Well,
Homer and Jethro didn't use any stinkin' Samples. Paradies yes. You can listen to one of "em, I'M MOVING ON NUMBER 2 and then you can follow the last line in the song, HERE COMES HANK SNOW, I'VE GOT TO GO, I'M MOVING ON.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 10/28/15 01:13 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1094656 - 10/28/15 02:15 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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We can probably use samples of Homer and Jethro, they have been gone a long time. Didn't Homer write those long tunes about Troy?

Try to not get personal. Arguing the issues is just fine, just be respectful as you can when the disagreements are so strong.


"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The 'hard' is what makes it great."
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @ FAWM 2016)
#1094657 - 10/28/15 03:40 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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songcat Offline
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I think all has been said on this thread. The original topic was about Frank Ocean being sued for using a sample that was not cleared. I think by now, we all agree that this is wrong (not that he gets sued, that he used a sample illegaly lol).

Somehow the conversation drifted to samples in general. Marc is entitled to his opinion (which he now reinforced once again) that "everyone who uses samples is lazy and talentless". Sadly, that means that a large number of today's hit producers, songwriters and other artists in ANY GENRE from Pop, to Rock, Hip Hop, Soul... you name it, are lazy and talentless in Marc's eyes.

I think Kevin made a good point by saying to be respectful when disagreements are strong. I think all involved did for the most part. However, calling people "lazy and talentless" for using a widely used method in music production might not be high on my scale of respectfulness. Same goes for talking down to people with statements such as "You just don't get it", "I'm sorry I don't speak your language" or "Who the HELL are you to question me at all".

Who is Mike? I don't know! From what I heard just a guy who's making a living with music... Just like myself and you, Marc. Now, the question that comes to my mind is: Who are you to call artists like Maroon 5, U2, and many more mentioned earlier lazy and talentless?

Just some food for thought, no need to answer or justify yourself. As I mentioned, it looks like all has been said on this thread and most have "checked out" several times by now.


http://songcat.biz - Where Timeless Creations Happen

Contact me at chris.erhardt@songcat.biz
#1094662 - 10/28/15 07:29 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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couchgrouch  Online Content
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I don't mind samples being used to flesh out a work tape or a home demo. I know string pads and synth accordions are used in Nashville demos. I would actually be ok with them in a song. I think those are just tools. The Spanish guitar part on side one of the White Album? That's a mellotron. I think it's between Wild Honey Pie and Bungalow Bill. And I think Miles "sampled" a portion of his own In a Silent Way on Jack Johnson.

The problem is this...what starts out being used creatively becomes a crutch. I just saw Chance the Rapper on Colbert. Other than his high school pep rally routine, his song was crap. A live drummer, trumpet player blowing nothing in particular and samples. Other than being able to talk really fast and jump around like a cheer leader...he has no talent and is musically lazy. His lyric was crap, too. His use of samples is a crutch.

Using recordings of others' songs to enhance your own recordings is lazy and gives evidence of a lack of musical ideas. I'm not talking string pads here. Or the mellotron flute on Strawberry Fields. (A truly visionary recording) I'm talking about using John Bonham's snare in place of your own band or drummer.

The list songcat provided only proves my point. Most of those people never wrote an innovative, timeless song in their lives. U2 hasn't done much worthwhile in decades and will never record a Strawberry Fields. Hell, The Doors did more on their first album than they have in 35 years.

Turn off the damn machines and write a great song.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/28/15 07:32 PM.
#1094663 - 10/28/15 07:37 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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Ps saying most modern producers and artists use others' recordings doesn't help your argument. It's been ages since I've heard a truly memorable modern song. And it sure wasn't robopop.

#1094669 - 10/28/15 09:06 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
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songcat Offline
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To be honest couchgrouch, I don't want to agree to your statement about U2 and other modern artists (can't believe I call them modern lol), but I also don't want to disagree. You see, I grew up with this kind of music. I grew up with music having been sampled. I grew up with those "damn machines". I don't know any different. I wasn't even planned until the late 80s.

But, fact is, this is how the majority of music is being produced in today's age. Is it good? Is it bad? Heck, one can argue about that. Is it right? It certainly is if done the legal way. Most of today's hit writers and producers are my age, some even younger so they also don't know any other way.

So, now what options does one have? You can either say "well, that's the way it is, I want to be commercially successful" and just go with it, or you want to make a statement and try to change the industry back to 60 years ago. It's a tough quest, but would be interesting enough to find out how music would change in that case. What would happen if all of a sudden those 'damn machines' were gone tomorrow (other than that we can't have those discussions here on JPF anymore).

But, I think that's something that almost deserves a whole new thread to discuss.


http://songcat.biz - Where Timeless Creations Happen

Contact me at chris.erhardt@songcat.biz
#1094675 - 10/28/15 10:45 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: songcat]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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I think U2 was out of gas after The Joshua Tree but someone said most modern artists and producers do it. The genie's out of the bottle and no one's putting it back. But individuals can resist trends. Rap and robopop are my era. But i was introduced to classic rock and roll by older friends at a young age.compared to Who's Next, NWA was and is a joke. I learned to write outside of the musical entropy of the 80s and 90s.

Very, very few people are going to do that. Most involved with entertainment today are just lost in a herd of walkers shuffling toward a horse carcass. Let's hear it for Jurassic Avengers 3 and Jay-Z's next track about pimpin'.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 10/28/15 10:53 PM.
#1094677 - 10/28/15 11:40 PM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Mike. Yes, you are very lazy if you require samples to make your music. And you are even more lazy when you can't stay on subject.The subject of this is very clear and very distinct. You don't understand it ,can't make your case so you drift. you drift to a thousand things that have nothing to do with anything and when I refute them you change the language and the subject. It wasn't about SAMPLES to begin with but you force it to go there with is not on subject.

Egg on my face. You know kid, I really couldn't care less what you think about me or what constitute "egg on my face" whatever that means. Who the HELL are you to question me at all? Go learn to stay on subject, grow up and learn something.

Yes, you are lazy. Incredibly lazy.

MAB


Then a few dozen hard core JPFers who use BIAB are incredibly lazy, too, including Kevin our beloved moderator.

I work about 14 hours a day making demos so I can pay my rent, and I use tools that help me get things done in a timely fashion, and I make a living doing this. Just barely, but I'm happy to be doing what I enjoy. If you actually knew me, you'd know that I am not lazy, and that I'm actually a nice guy. We just have such polarized ways of expressing ourselves that it's probably not healthy for us to talk with each other, haha.

I never "changed" any subject, Marc. What I did was that I gave examples that poked holes in your all or nothing statements. When you echoed Henley saying that these people treat audio like "interactive playthings" I pointed out the for the greater public, audio can be and is legally interactive and fun to play with. You weren't qualifying that statement, so I did. It needed to be said, otherwise you are basically misinforming people, making them think that it is illegal and/or morally wrong to "mess" with audio for fun. When you said ""Using other's RECORDED work is THEFT. Period" I felt the need to speak up, and show you examples that yes of course were not about Frank Ocean, but contradicted your statement and showed the absurdity of it, the exaggeration of it. Using others' work is only theft under certain conditions. Was I wrong to go there? No. You were again, misinforming everyone. I felt I needed to speak up. The only times I "changed the subject" was to give examples that showed the absurdity of your sweeping all/nothing statements.

Who the HELL am I to question you at all? Seriously? Now you are just baiting me, Marc. I'll let that quote stand by itself, haha.

I am a 57 year old workaholic who made demos in Nashville in the nineties, and then moved back to California to take care of my mom who developed Alzheimer's and was bedridden for over a decade and it broke my heart to see her slowly slip away.

I forced the subject to change? I believe asking how you feel about "sampling in general" was a fair question, and in no way have I been coercive in that regard. It's important to know your feelings about sampling in general, since it is at the heart of what this thread is about. It's about sampling, and how a certain guy crossed over the line in his practice of sampling. It's important to know your feelings about sampling in general, because if you have a skewed or biased viewpoint of sampling in all its incarnations, it tends to make me more skeptical about what you say about Ocean's case, even though everything you say about Ocean's case may in fact be true.. I mean, it's one thing to hate apples and make a case against them, but if you hate all fruit, then I take what you say about apples with a grain of salt. I mean, jurors get weeded out in such manner, so a guy can get a fair trial, you know?

Besides, you brought up "creative laziness" all on your own, several posts earlier (look for the italics):

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Michael,

I think we are on the same page. Music is about ADAPTATION, not as much as CHANGE. It all changes, and some things come around in giant circles. When I had mentioned that "No one is making money" I also meant to include a caveat, that there are always people who do make money. There are always people who find a way. There are always innovators.

My problem on the entire Sampling and creative theft is that I just think it is total intellectual and creative laziness. And Frank Ocean's stunt DID work. He got publicity, his ticket sales rise, his "branding" rises,and he gets the reputation for "Sticking it to the rich rock star."

But it is what it is. As you say, I have accepted the way things are, as I always have. When I was an artist, I did everything I could in that capacity. When I got too old for that, I switched to writing, having publishing deals, getting cuts, etc. But when the money drained out of that (AND I WAS ASKED) I turned my attention to teaching and instructing others. Didn't want to do that, just came my way and I adapted. I'm fortunate that people seek me out and ask and pay for my services. Many of my contemporaries, aren't that lucky.

I will always do the same. Hope you are well. Good discussion.

MAB


That was eons ago, when we were being nice with each other. No force. No coercion. You offered your opinions, free of charge.

So now you are being downright mean in your conversation, Marc. I'll tell you one more thing about who I am: I am someone who does not deserve nor appreciate being talked to like that, and I would never ever talk with you in such a manner.

And as far as your laziness comment, I think Jesus said, "judge not, lest you be judged."

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/29/15 07:30 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1094680 - 10/29/15 12:44 AM Re: Don Henley giving Frank Ocean his "just rewards" [Re: couchgrouch]  
Joined: Jul 2006
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Senor Grouch,

I hope you're having a lovely evening, and are not suffering from last Sunday's "The Walking Dead" like I am. smile

And again, keep in mind I don't use other people's music in any of my demos for myself or clients!

Software, virtual instruments, audio samples and loops, these are all just tools, just like guitars and pianos are tools. The art is in the vision of the piece, and getting that vision manifest. Use whatever tools will do this in the most economical way. Now that's creativity!

BUT lets say I feel the way you do, but I have a deadline and get a two bar sample I need cleared at the eleventh hour, then incorporate it into the piece--the sample is just one tiny part of this piece. Then I present the piece, say it's for an ad, to my boss, and confess to him that I feel dirty and lazy for having used the sample. I imagine my boss would say something like, "what minus points you get for laziness in using that sample is more than offset by your ingenuity in hearing exactly what was needed and getting it done pronto--so don't sell yourself short, there's plenty of creativity in that." I guess 7 seasons of Mad Men have taken their toll, haha.

So you know, it all depends on how one looks at creativity and commerce, and if one is willing to let the two commingle. Art and commerce have always been odd bedfellows, and we tend to think of them as mutually exclusive, but in this day and age it's a fact the two must learn to live together.

We need to make our livings. We have deadlines, and we don't need to re-invent the freakin' wheel every time we do a new piece, chopping all the boring wood of the drum parts, hell, owning the damn drum kit to begin with! Besides, not everyone is Mike Oldfield who can play all the parts or connected to enough musicians to be able to pull off professional sounding recordings by employing their non-existent studio musician friends and neighbors.

Some, like me, live in spaces where very little noise is tolerated. I am lucky to have three windows of opportunity a week to sing, so I can make demos.

And the more unique/exotic the samples, the more quickly the "laziness" theory falls apart. I am not lazy for using didgeridoo samples, I am practical. LOL. Or do you actually think I should get onto Craig's list and hire a didgeridoo player? I'd just love to hear you say that, haha.

Who says that every single moment of every track on the mixer board had better be played by a real human, or it's lazy or cheating? Probably people who have invested a lot in doing just that. To me it's a preposterous, presumptuous notion. If your eye is on the goal, and the goal is the finished piece, are you going to tell an artist who hears a James Brown loop for the drum track that he is lazy? Keep in mind that now, many folks who use samples do so because that's what they hear in their creative imaginations, so it can't be a crutch to them, if they are not substitutions for "the real thing." You feel me?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/29/15 07:24 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
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