Who's Online Now
25 registered members (coder, Dave Rice, 9ne, CTthomas, couchgrouch, E Swartz, Everett Adams, AntonyRobWells, Brian Austin Whitney, 3 invisible), and 379 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Ricki E. Bellos
Ricki E. Bellos
Wisconsin
Posts: 6,894
Joined: April 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
NEW MEMBERS CHECK HERE
by CraigAllen. 07/13/20 01:29 PM
Edit: ALL Corona Virus Post MUST Go Here
by John Lawrence Schick. 07/13/20 12:30 PM
Made in America, an oldie revised
by Gavin Sinclair. 07/13/20 11:04 AM
Any producer looking for a song/hook writer?
by Fdemetrio. 07/13/20 10:50 AM
Rare old times. Travis and Vic
by Travis david. 07/13/20 08:33 AM
What did you do in the war dad?
by Travis david. 07/13/20 07:20 AM
This Far Before
by Travis david. 07/13/20 07:12 AM
Cupid Got Mad
by RossM. 07/13/20 06:15 AM
You Shine // just added Ourstage link
by John W. Selleck. 07/13/20 12:15 AM
The Lord Your God
by E Swartz. 07/12/20 10:10 PM
New York City Cowboy
by E Swartz. 07/12/20 09:57 PM
SPF 15
by E Swartz. 07/12/20 09:29 PM
In Silence (NIkki Nikita's lyrics)
by Guy E. Trepanier. 07/12/20 06:55 PM
Anyone seen Mackie H. lately?
by E Swartz. 07/12/20 05:49 PM
So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?
by John W. Selleck. 07/12/20 01:36 PM
SHOWCASE: LYRICS/SONGS/ESSAYS BY GARY E. ANDREWS
by Gary E. Andrews. 07/11/20 10:11 PM
Let's Agree to Disagree
by John W. Selleck. 07/11/20 06:50 PM
A part of me
by John W. Selleck. 07/11/20 06:05 PM
Publishing Adm Services
by John W. Selleck. 07/11/20 12:30 AM
This body that I see
by John W. Selleck. 07/10/20 06:31 PM
Can't Make You Love Me
by Songbird52. 07/10/20 10:25 AM
Angels?
by Vicarn. 07/09/20 07:39 AM
A Daydream Night
by Fdemetrio. 07/08/20 09:42 PM
I Can’t Wait To Fall Asleep Tonight
by CTthomas. 07/08/20 08:40 PM
Eternal Twilight
by Two Singers. 07/08/20 07:42 PM
White Trash Diaper Rash (video)
by Martin Lide. 07/08/20 07:39 PM
Natural Melodies?
by John W. Selleck. 07/08/20 05:42 PM
URIAH KEENE( Rewrite 3)
by Travis david. 07/08/20 04:25 PM
Wisdom's Jungle Wilderness 3
by Perry Neal Crawford. 07/08/20 03:34 PM
Wisdom's Jungle Wilderness 2
by Perry Neal Crawford. 07/08/20 02:45 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,834
Travis david 11,889
Kevin Emmrich 10,660
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,637
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,845
glynda 8,677
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,909
couchgrouch 7,781
Dave Rice 7,710
Corey 7,357
Mark Kaufman 6,584
Vicarn 6,579
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
ben willis 6,107
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
niteshift 5,683
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,666
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,376
Roy Cooper 4,241
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,104
nightengale 4,096
MFB III 3,926
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,814
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,580
E Swartz 3,491
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,842
MidniteBob 2,712
Nelson 2,603
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Fdemetrio 2,391
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,219
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,027
maccharles 1,988
DukeWill 1,988
floyd jane 1,985
Martin Lide 1,970
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,650
Noel Downs 1,620
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
GocartMoz 1,552
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,473
RogerS 1,471
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
Deej56 1,298
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Glen King 1,214
Gerry 1,210
IdeaGuy 1,209
lane1777 1,177
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,169
Diane Ewing 1,158
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
IronKnee 1,008
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
90 dB 942
9ne 924
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
ant 747
Andy K 746
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 734
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Irwin 666
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
Pat Hardy 637
quality 637
Moosesong 636
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
JAPOV 563
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
R&M 525
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
ckiphen 378
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#1091451 - 09/06/15 04:41 PM Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song!  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Saint Petersburg. FL
In case there was any doubt, here is proof positive that this song needs nothing else. (I have no idea who or where she is other than this....)



Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1091458 - 09/06/15 06:17 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,613
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 10 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,613
Eva Cassidy I know and admire...now almost 20 years after her passing, this girl not only brings Eva back, she is a wonderful talent in her own right.

Thanks Colin. It inspired me.



If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1091459 - 09/06/15 06:20 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,613
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 10 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,613
Here's an original by Jenny Colquitt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAmREhsjp3E


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1091462 - 09/06/15 06:47 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,429
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,429
PA
It works for me Colin! Nice! Though the popper stopper didn't work. grin

John smile

#1091501 - 09/07/15 01:54 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Saint Petersburg. FL
Yes, she has a voice, indeed. Of course, the song (mainly the melody) is the key.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1091510 - 09/07/15 03:48 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode Offline
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
For Producers that are seeking songs for a particular Artist a Guitar/Vocal should suffice. After it is the song not the production they are looking for. Now those Producers or Artists that want a perfect demo with all the bells and whistles you most likely wouldn't want to deal with anyway.


Ray E. Strode
#1091513 - 09/07/15 06:36 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
As usual, everyone is taking out the 200-1500 other full demo songs that go on with a pitch that this one has to compete with. But in ballads, a good guitar vocal can present the song. Of course, Ballads are the EBOLA virus of songs, so all of them have an uphill battle no matter how good they are.

MAB

#1091515 - 09/07/15 07:09 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,082
joro Offline
Top 500 Poster
joro  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,082
Massachusetts,USA
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
It works for me Colin! Nice! Though the popper stopper didn't work. grin

John smile


of course it didn't work....it's touching the frickin' mic.....

sheesh....


nice though...none the less

I would add bass, violin, cello and Kahon....

harmony vox too.....maybe a dirty les paul through a Marshall...or better yet...a Mesa Nomad 55....


and a tuba....ya gotta have a tuba..... wink

#1091516 - 09/07/15 07:11 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,710
Dave Rice Online content
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,710
Texas
Marc:

I don't believe Colin's purpose was to deny the value of a full-blown demo with all the bells and whistles. Instead, the demo here clearly shows that a great vocal, well played instrument and a well written song can hold it's own against just about anything. Good music is good music. Ballads may be a virus to the ear of the folks in charge at the big labels... but they are pure gold to my ear... but I love music of most genres and would not dare to say one was better than the other.

Colin:

Thanks ever so much for sharing this gem with us. Stunningly beautiful performance.

Regards to you both,

Dave

#1091521 - 09/07/15 08:04 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Dave,

As a guy who has just had a guitar vocal ballad get a lot of attention, I do understand the quiet simplicity. But there are many rungs that all songs have to jump through to even be considered. This is a good example of one of those. My comments are that you always have to look at OTHER issues, besides the song itself. There are limiting factors with guitar/vocal only songs.

That is my only point.

MAB

#1091529 - 09/07/15 11:06 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,710
Dave Rice Online content
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,710
Texas
Hi Marc:

Your point is well taken. Issues such as money, power, influence certainly come into play here. Often, overshadowing talent. My argument is that... with a "level playing field" (which is probably humanly impossible) there would be no limiting factors regarding a guitar/vocal only song. It would simply be a matter of personal preference.

You see, it is possible to have a different viewpoint without animosity. I respect you and all you do for us very much.

----Dave

#1091533 - 09/07/15 11:45 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,613
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 10 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,613
This was not a demo but a cover of a cover


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1091534 - 09/07/15 11:57 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Saint Petersburg. FL
Marc,

This song was written by Sting in the mid-nineties and was a worldwide success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_of_Gold

My point in posting it, other than for its entertainment value, is to demonstrate that a great song can stand on its own if performed well.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1091536 - 09/08/15 12:03 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,712
MidniteBob Offline
Top 100 Poster
MidniteBob  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,712
Raleigh, ya'll
Oohh, oohhh, oohhhh!!!

Sorry, I just learned this morning that Welcome Back Kotter is being released on DVD and I was channeling Horshack...

Oohh, oohhh, oohhh, I know the answer to this one!!!

It's not just about the money & power and influence...

INSERT MY IMAGINED MAB QUOTE HERE: It is also about relationships, and they take time to build.

Oohh, oohhh, oohhh....Trying to tie in my rambling...

John Sebastian wrote the theme song to "Kotter"...

John Sebastian also wrote "Nashville Cats" somewhere back in the late, ahem, 1960's...And one of the lines was:

Well there are thirteen hundred and fifty two guitar pickers in Nashville...

Hang on while I do the math & update......

...I'll have to get back to you about trying to do the math and extrapolating...

Getting back to Colin's post...Perhaps it should be reworded:

A guitar/vocal is enough to touch someone...

To which I would say AMEN!!!

....Ok, the computer just came back with the algorithm/rewrite:

(with a nod to John V. & Douglas Adams...)

"There are currently four hundred thousand, two hundred and ninety-eight demos being submitted this week in Nashville."

So I then asked:

What do you suggest I do?

After almost frying its own hard drive, my computer spit out:

Don't give up the day job.

And then, right as I was about to turn it off before it locked the Pod Bay Doors on me, the computer asked:

If you do what you love, why don't you love what you do?

At which point I ripped out the plug and pulled out a sledge hammer.

Midnite





Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1091543 - 09/08/15 02:29 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Colin,

Now that you mentioned it, I did remember that song from the 80's or 90's. I didn't care for it then either. Just not there for me. But she does a fine job on it.

MAB

#1091558 - 09/08/15 09:52 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,813
Everett Adams Online content
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,813
,NL Canada
Midnite Bob, I like your sense of humour.

#1091566 - 09/08/15 12:48 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode Offline
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Ah Ze, Well,
One time I saw Hank Thompson. The band played some loud thing that was pretty loud, like a lot of productions being released today. Everything is Two-Blocked to the hilt. As soon as Hank started to sing the band became very quiet and you could hear every word Hank sang. He had a large band but they knew how to play a song. With much of today's stuff if the music isn't at least 10 percent above the vocal something's wrong! Of course who is accepting demos these days.


Ray E. Strode
#1091600 - 09/08/15 08:59 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 253
Chris Erhardt Offline
Top 500 Poster
Chris Erhardt  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 253
NYC/L.A.
Agree, this is not a demo but a cover. Bunch of those on Youtube and many are simply great. However, when it comes to the demo question I have a nice little story I read elsewhere from a professional songwriter.

He said, he worked with a producer for many years who told him to ONLY submit guitar/vocal or piano/vocal demos. No fully produced songs. One day, he presented two guitar vocal demos and that producer passed, saying the songs aren't good. The songwriter thought differently, went ahead to produce a full version and pitched those versions elsewhere. Those two songs became his two biggest hits as a writer.

The original producer he normally pitches to asked him, after he found out the songs were by him: "Why did you not bring those songs to me, I would have signed them in a heartbeat?" He replied that he did, but as a simple guitar/vocal demo. Lesson learned for the producer - I'm sure he changed his mind about his pitching requirements.

Buttom line - know who you're pitching to. If they want a fully produced song, don't pitch an acoustic demo. If they want an acoustic demo, don't pitch a full version with all bells and whistles. However, many want a full production as it's hard to hear the full potential of a for example dance song if it's just a guitar vocal demo. On the other hand, a slow, hearfelt ballad (or the Ebola virus of songs as Marc would call them) might work a bit more stripped down. Know your audience and adjust accordingly - simple as that.


https://tunedly.com

Contact me at chris@tunedly.com
#1091602 - 09/08/15 09:52 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Chris Erhardt]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
And know who THEY have to play them for. A producer, artist, artist's publisher, producers publisher, record label, manager, lawyer, attorney's, etc. Will be submitted around 2000-3000 songs in the course of pitching for a project, the majority of those having been written by the artists, producers, or staff writers closely related to the artist.

MAB

#1091651 - 09/09/15 09:24 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,870
Harriet Ames Offline
Top 100 Poster
Harriet Ames  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,870
Shelton, WA
The way I heard it years ago when I tried pitching...was that while that ballad may not be "the ebola of songs" the artists that needed songs already had far more incredible ballads on their long list than could ever possibly make the short list cut.... (unless the song is beyond fantastic...& then only maybe) and what they really needed were the fast, upbeat, positive songs... "yeah...love that song...but I can't use it"

#1091661 - 09/10/15 12:49 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Harriet Ames]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Ballads are 70-75% of what is written. Artists, writers, etc. always wear their emotions on their sleeves. That is why they are writers in the first place, to share their emotions and experiences. Everyone deals with heartbreak, everyone deals with death, with dissapointments. Everyone falls in love. Everyone has parents, teachers, people that mean a lot to them in their lives. Everyone has feelings.

That is what BALLADS are written about. Most artists and writers are not natural players at first, so they write slower songs. So it is going to be the thing that there is always too many of.

And while so many people would "always love to hear a good ballad" when you hear thousands, upon thousands upon thousands, all saying roughly the same thing, they lose their impact. Then you have to deal with "THE REST OF THE STORY."

We live in an UPTEMPO WORLD. The Internet, television, radio, computers, dealing with life, taking care of kids, driving to work, going from one place to another, we never sit still and are in constant motion.

The success of songs depend on EXPOSURE, and that mostly still comes from TERRESTRIAL RADIO. Terrestrial radio is mainly around DRIVE TIME. That is 6 in the morning till 9:00 am. and afternoon between 3:00 and 6:00, where the majority of the world is sitting in traffic.

People do NOT enjoy sitting in traffic and having slow lumbering ballads played at them all the time. People don't go to lakes, rivers, oceans and listen to slow mostly depressing ballads. People don't go to pick up or try to pick up the opposite sex in clubs, bars, dance places, to listen to slow depressing ballads. They want up tempo, and the clubs and places that serve alcohol want people to DRINK up and fast, up tempo, dance and party numbers are what sell alcohol.

Ballads are what you listen to at last call when you are trying to take that person home.

So most of the people who PERFORM, WHO PLAY THE RECORDS, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DELIVERING MUSIC TO THE MASSES WANT UP TEMPO!

Period.

About 1 out of 100 songs vying for slots are ballads. And those are what the artists themselves or the big hit writers supply.

That is why Ballads are EBOLA. Can't do anything with them.

MAB

#1091662 - 09/10/15 01:04 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode Offline
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA

i have written several Ballads but realize most are not looking for Ballads or very few. I put one Ballad on the Web Site, THIS HEART BELONGS TO ME but after getting the demo I didn't like it and never pitched it. Another song JUST LIKE THE DAYS would be a better song if anyone was looking for a ballad. But who is looking for submissions these days.
The Web Site is:
http://www.geocities.ws/fiverosesmusicgroup/


Ray E. Strode
#1091673 - 09/10/15 09:41 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
Dan Sullivan Offline
Top 100 Poster
Dan Sullivan  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
MI
Then of course there is the uptempo ballad combining the best of both musical worlds. I am reminded of The Ballad of John and Yoko, The Ballad of the Green Berets and The Ballad of Robert Welch.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
#1091684 - 09/10/15 12:45 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Dan,

Those songs are actually "mid tempo" and are the older definition of a "ballad." Songs that tell a story.

The "Ballad of John And Yoko" was successful because it was from the Beatles, a cultural subject of the time. The Beatles could have put out "The Ballad of car wax" and sold a million copies. Had nothing to do with the song.

"The Ballad of the Green Berets" was successful because Barry Sadler, the writer and singer, was a Green Beret and we were just getting into Vietnam, which was popular in the beginning. A very patriotic thing. It was the theme song of the John Wayne movie and at that time he was the biggest movie star in the world.

I don't know the other one.

The definition of "BALLADS" changed in the 80's. Before then, it was a "song that told a story", like Marty Robbin's El Paso. "Taps" would be a ballad. Mostly they were campfire and cattle songs. "ballads" would keep the herd calm in the early days.

On radio, they were generally slower songs.

Then in the 80's that changed to "power ballad" with the big rock bands, Styxx, (Babe, Lady), REO Speedwagon (Keep on Loving You), Journey (Open Arms), and the definition changed in the industry.

In the late 80's-90's, the definition changed for the negative in Nashville and "Ballads" began to represent "Boring."

An average writers night will have 25-30 writers doing 3 songs each. That is 90-110 songs, depending on a few open micers, the feature, etc. Out of those, 70 songs will be slow ballads. They are usually very depressing, about angst, pain, longing, loss. And of course, about how lonely they are moving to Nashville playing their songs and no one listening.
They are generally nearly the EXACT SAME SONG, over and over.

If you multiply that by thousands, you see what publishers are faced with. People bring ballads over and over and are rejected over and over. The main reason is that publishers have no where to take them. Their artists write their own. The hit writers write AMAZING BALLADS like THREE WOODEN CROSSES, a huge hit for Randy Travis (Written by the producer)and are very different than the ballads from amateur or part time writers.
And radio is not going to play most of them in the first place, so labels are not going to consider them. So nothing you can do with them. Period.

So when you factor in the overall background of them, overwhelming glut of product, no ability for final end result, you realize you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
There will be a few each year, but very few. If you are trying to be a viable writer, the first thing you do is learn TEMPO.

MAB

#1091685 - 09/10/15 12:58 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
Dan Sullivan Offline
Top 100 Poster
Dan Sullivan  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
MI
MAB, thanks for bringing "Three Wooden Crosses" to my attention. That's a real well written story song, the kind that could bring tears to the eyes of a wooden Indian.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
#1091686 - 09/10/15 01:53 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Dan ,that is a great song. The two writers, Doug Johnson, and Kim Williams are both friends of mine, and Kim and I are co-writers.

I like to point that song out, not only because it is A GREAT SONG, but as an example of WHY it is so hard to get songs heard, considered or even in the running when it comes to actual pitches in this industry.

Most of the producers, label executives, major publishers that get the majority of the cuts in this town ARE GREAT WRITERS TOO. They actually start out that way.

Almost everyone who is doing this, came as a writer or an artist. AS their careers progress over time, they might splinter off. Some of them become producers, by producing their own demos, that leads them to developing their own artists (around their own songs), their own publishing companies, etc. Many who have huge hits, pile that money back into their own companies, and they have the ground floor with new artists coming out, often finding them months or years before anyone even knows who they are.

But many of them are INCREDIBLE WRITERS THEMSELVES. And have their own songs they want to get cut. Kim and Doug wrote regularly, and since Doug was not only a producer on tons of acts, he also was running two or three record labels. So it all gets very inside. If you think these people DON'T WANT their OWN SONGS OUT THERE, YOU ARE NOT THINKING CLEARLY.

If you look at modern artists, go back a few years, you will see the hit writers that helped them get started having their own songs all throughout their careers. Jeffery Steel and Rascal Flatts, Victoria Shaw and Lady A, Craig Wiseman and Fla. Ga. Line.

It is why the business is SO INSIDE. And why RELATIONSHIPS, NOT SONGS are the key to everything. Songs are just songs until someone decides that THAT IS THE ONE THEY HAVE TO PUSH. And most of the time those songs are going to be reserved for those that write it themselves.

I always ask a question of everyone wanting to do this, and I'll throw it to all of you.

You know how hard you work on your own songs.
You know the time it takes, the late nights tweaking, putting aside time to write in the first place, working to get demos, working to pay bills so you can do your music. Taking time away from other things like family, job, missing events, birthdays, anniverserys, etc.

Now if you had done all that, AND spent decades building your career and relationships, THEN DEVELOPING SOME OTHER ACT, to finally get a chance for yourself and your songs.

NOW

HOW MANY SONGS OR PEOPLE THAT YOU DON'T KNOW would you put OVER YOUR OWN SONGS. Songs that you have no connection to. Songs from people that contact you online, are in contests, or even worse, coming from sources that you think are corrupt or shady?

How many would you push ahead of your own?

When you have great songs written by great writers, in the right place at the right time, who have spent decades getting there, there are just not many outside songs that are going anywhere.

That is reality.
MAB

#1091689 - 09/10/15 02:51 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode Offline
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Yes,
It is pretty well known Producer's will push their own songs to the detriment of even better, more appropriate songs from outside writers. If they do consider an outside song, most likely they will want a part of it to get it cut. Most of the time they won't even listen to any outside material.


The danger in that is when you are buddy-buddy with writer's the song material will suffer and selling it to the public will be mostly a bust.

True it is a lot more work to listen to outside songs and a lot of people in the industry want it all delivered up on a Silver Platter. Most want it E-Mailed to them now. So be it.

P.S. I only send songs to someone that is seeking Material.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 09/10/15 03:28 PM.

Ray E. Strode
#1091710 - 09/10/15 07:26 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Ray,

See, this is one thing that is a very mistaken point of view. Saying "Producers pushing their own songs over 'better, or more appropriate" songs is a very subjective statement. Who is the one to say that? In many times, the artist or producer or label BELIEVE in their own songs over what other people bring to them. And they are the ones in the driver's seat.

As I illustrated on the song, THREE WOODEN CROSSES, written by Kim Williams, and Doug Johnson (who was the producer) was an astounding song. So to say that they could have put other "more appropriate or better songs" just doesn't hold water. And the fact that that song was a number one, and a song of the year contender and Randy's last bit hit, all say they were correct.

Sometimes they do push songs over other songs, but there are many reasons for that, mostly that they feel stronger about those. And in the overall picture of a record label, with executives, marketing people, managers, attorneys, producers, and the artists themselves, not to mention, test marketing to radio itself, there are a LOT of people sharing in the decisions.

Sometimes that rings true, sometimes it doesn't but no one throws things out there and spends millions of dollars of promotional money just to throw it out there. That is a myth. Actually, you often will find that even in some hit songs that a producer or artist might have written on, they were actually added AFTER not being able to find anything else. Everyone is trying to get the best shot at something, so they will hold off on using their own songs until everything else is in.

MAB

#1091713 - 09/10/15 08:26 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,579
Vicarn Online content
Top 40 Poster
Vicarn  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,579
UK
I'd listen to this all day but maybe not as much as I'd listen to Sting's version.
This girl has enough voice to do an original.
Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1091720 - 09/10/15 10:39 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Harriet Ames]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,579
Vicarn Online content
Top 40 Poster
Vicarn  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,579
UK

Harriet.
I was told by a publisher just lately to listen to the Country Billboard charts.
No more to be said.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1091727 - 09/10/15 11:37 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Vicarn]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode Offline
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well Gheez!
Marc I have read that statement in more than one place about producer's pushing their songs first. No problem. I imagine even the writer's that moved to Nashville are having a hard time getting heard.

My used to be Publisher told me about an Artist going to Nashville and visiting Publisher's in search of songs. They wouldn't give him any Original Songs! He had to cut songs that were already out. So how many Publisher's are left on Music Row?


Ray E. Strode
#1091728 - 09/10/15 11:38 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Vicarn]  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448
Ande Rasmussen Offline
Top 200 Poster
Ande Rasmussen  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448
Martindale, TX, USA
She is very good, but I prefer Eva.

There's a bunch of ballads out there. There's gotta be something unique that tugs hard on an artists heart that's makes them want to cut a ballad.

Allen Shamblin is a brilliant ballad writer

"I can't make you love me" Bonnie Raitt
"The house that built me" Miranda Lambert

He recently got a cut on Garths Latest CD with "Send Em on down the road"
Which many people in Nashville said no one would ever cut
But it was the right song at the right time for Garth

I'd also add the easier a song idea is to "find"
the more obvious it is and the more writers have already "found" it & written a song from it.
A famous memorable line in a movie, like "you had me at hello"
An unforgettable line from a book, or
A giant event like 9/11, thousands of writers wrote 9/11 songs
I remember 3
Alan Jackson "where were you when the world stopped turning"
Bring On the Rain Jo Dee Messina &
We Will Stand by Eric Horner ( Lee Greenwoods band Leader )

Allen Shamblin finds interesting angles that are unique yet universal
I can't make you love me about the final night of an imbalanced love relationship that's ending

House that built me visiting the house you grew up in



#1091739 - 09/11/15 11:12 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Ande Rasmussen]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,683
niteshift Online content
Top 50 Poster
niteshift  Online Content
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,683
Fiji
Hey Colin,

Yes, good point, but a little confused.

The "demo" is a well known song, and the vocal/instrument is very well produced, invoking both the known, and the new upon an exceptional voice.

I absolutely agree with you regarding an instrumental/vocal is good enough to demo a song.

Ms Rock Chic MUST at the moment do the same, for a heavy rock song ( as part of her school learning ) and what we will do is map out format , lyrics and structure. It will then move onto the next stage to be produced regarding style, genre, audience demographics, etc.

All I can say, is that current music students are learning the art of writing the song..... which then leads to full production and presentation.

So, in regard to your statement, I have to whole heartedly agree, "A Guitar/Vocal is good enough".

cheers, niteshift


#1091740 - 09/11/15 11:33 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: niteshift]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Saint Petersburg. FL
Niteshift,

I wrote the title of the thread to stir up interest and discussion (which it did!). Obviously not everyone likes it, but I think it is a distinct, memorable and beautiful melody and Jenny Colquitt has the perfect voice for it. I don't know what the lyrics are about exactly, but who cares? It sounds great.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1091744 - 09/11/15 12:28 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Ray, there are not a lot of "legitimate" publishers these days. Publishing doesn't mean what it once did. There are basically about four, SONY, WARNERS, EMI, UNIVERSAL, the major conglomerates that get the majority of the cuts. They have access to the artists because they are the BANKS that put out the product. They have record labels attached to them, yet even the writers that write FOR those companies are not shue ins to get cuts. They have staff writers but even many of those don't get cuts. They only get access.

There are endless "PINO'S" (Publishers in Name Only). Those are the ones you hear about in places like this. Those threads always start out...."Has anyone ever heard of..." They are people that pitch songs for a fee, have recording services, promise the moon, and deliver nothing. The majority are well known in this town and could not get a real appointment with anyone, because their reputation is horrible. They take anything for money, and when you are known for taking anything, even if you are a blind squirrel and find an acorn from time to time, no one is going to listen to you because you are known as a GHERM or sleeze.

It is why they have to do "COMPILATION" CD's (who has time or interest in listening to 15-20 songs?) they have to continuously offer more and more things for more and more money and are continually talked bad about everyone who deals with them.

Road to HELL paved with good intentions.

There are 136 publishing deals. This is down from 1460 in 2003, around 350 in 2008, on down to where we are now. These range from the HUGE big dog writers, to the new artists that are coming on the scene with shots at record deals. The entire publishing industry shifted 15 years ago to publishers and hit writers being artist development, and away from songs themselves. Everyone still writes songs, of course, hundreds a day, but writing them in conjunction with an upcoming artist is the surest way to get things heard.

About 25-30 writers a year get 90% of the cuts in town. An interesting fact is that if you go back in history, starting in 1955 when Nashville really became the recording center, there were about 25 writers a year that got the cuts. Every three-five years some writer has a huge run, and everyone goes to that writer for songs. Then they cool off and someone else takes their place. SO a lot about today is exactly the same as it has always been. Except now the runs cool off faster.
We are like athletes. Take decades to get to a position that you can actually play the game, then after a very short time, someone younger and stronger replaces you and you are out to pasture.

Andy is correct on HOUSE THAT BUILT ME and Allen Shamblin. Allen is one of the most respected writers in town and has been for 25 years. He wrote "I can't Make You Love Me" for Bonnie Raitt, which is one of the most performed songs in music.
He wrote House with Tom Douglas, who is also a huge writer.

Even with a great song, great writers, great approach, great everything, it still took 6 years to actually write it, and another 5-7 years to actually find the perfect artist, Miranda Lambert, at a state in her career, where she was known as the "Angry Chick Singer" to need a song like that, and it turn her into a phenomon.

Thousands upon thousands of songs are "released" every year. Some from amazing writers and still just do nothing. Some pop back up years later, "finding their time," and far too many never do anything. And as we all know, hundreds of mediocre songs are written, some even as jokes (RED SOLO CUP) and EXPLODE with audiences, and become enormous hits. You can never figure out what will connect with the public. Usually the ones the most surprised at that are the writers and publishers themselves.

Every member of this community misses them and makes poor decisions. I passed up a Garth Brooks cut early in my career as well as a chance to write with TAYLOR SWIFT at the beginning of hers. Part of the challenge. You just never know.

It's all a crap shoot and all very random. Can't figure it out and can't follow a formula. The biggest casino of them all, you pay's your money and takes your chances.

MAB


#1091747 - 09/11/15 12:45 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
90 dB Offline
Top 500 Poster
90 dB  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
Florida
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Ballads are 70-75% of what is written. Artists, writers, etc. always wear their emotions on their sleeves. That is why they are writers in the first place, to share their emotions and experiences. Everyone deals with heartbreak, everyone deals with death, with dissapointments. Everyone falls in love. Everyone has parents, teachers, people that mean a lot to them in their lives. Everyone has feelings.

That is what BALLADS are written about. Most artists and writers are not natural players at first, so they write slower songs. So it is going to be the thing that there is always too many of.

And while so many people would "always love to hear a good ballad" when you hear thousands, upon thousands upon thousands, all saying roughly the same thing, they lose their impact. Then you have to deal with "THE REST OF THE STORY."

We live in an UPTEMPO WORLD. The Internet, television, radio, computers, dealing with life, taking care of kids, driving to work, going from one place to another, we never sit still and are in constant motion.

The success of songs depend on EXPOSURE, and that mostly still comes from TERRESTRIAL RADIO. Terrestrial radio is mainly around DRIVE TIME. That is 6 in the morning till 9:00 am. and afternoon between 3:00 and 6:00, where the majority of the world is sitting in traffic.

People do NOT enjoy sitting in traffic and having slow lumbering ballads played at them all the time. People don't go to lakes, rivers, oceans and listen to slow mostly depressing ballads. People don't go to pick up or try to pick up the opposite sex in clubs, bars, dance places, to listen to slow depressing ballads. They want up tempo, and the clubs and places that serve alcohol want people to DRINK up and fast, up tempo, dance and party numbers are what sell alcohol.

Ballads are what you listen to at last call when you are trying to take that person home.

So most of the people who PERFORM, WHO PLAY THE RECORDS, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DELIVERING MUSIC TO THE MASSES WANT UP TEMPO!

Period.

About 1 out of 100 songs vying for slots are ballads. And those are what the artists themselves or the big hit writers supply.

That is why Ballads are EBOLA. Can't do anything with them.

MAB




MAB-

I really appreciate your your input and inside take on the business as it relates to Nashville. Although some of it falls on deaf ears, it is still very valuable information. It seems that people would rather cling to “how it used to be” and “the way it should be” or “the way I think it is”, and totally ignore “How it really is”.

A quick look at the Billboard charts will bear out your opinion on ballads. I also agree with your take on tempo.

“So most of the people who PERFORM, WHO PLAY THE RECORDS, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DELIVERING MUSIC TO THE MASSES WANT UP TEMPO!

Period.”


Amen. People want to move. They want to tap their feet and sing along – loudly. They want happy, uptempo music (or raunchy, uptempo music).

We play a lot of bars, and in a 4-hour night, we might play two or three ballads. People don't want to sit at the bar and be reminded of how they ended up there. grin

Your job as an entertainer is to make them feel good, and that means up-tempo! IMHO, your job as a songwriter is to do the same thing.


Regards,

Bob



#1091778 - 09/11/15 07:07 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: 90 dB]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,814
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,814
Denmark
Of course a gtr/voc is enough to demo a song. Demoing basically just means fixating the composition and lyric into a musical form. You demo in order to remember and sometimes in order to show the work to others, either for development or sales purposes.

So, this is not really a demo. It's a recording of a cover, done to publish a performance on YouTube that can be monetized.

On writing ballads, well, I think they work well for the 7am Radio crowd on their way to work, that Ralph Murphy talks about. The uptempo beer tunes are for the 10pm party crowd you play live gigs for.

Who watches this video? Colin, and young girls on the way to school or work in public transportation. They don't buy anything, but will click on an icon on the Internet. So choosing YouTube for it, is right on the money, imo.


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/buzztracks
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
#1091779 - 09/11/15 07:23 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,429
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,429
PA
I believe there are quite a few piano and vocal hits. Here's one: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=adele's+2011+smash+'someone+like+you'&qpvt=Adele%27s+2011+smash+%27Someone+Like+You%27&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=79D93D3D9B1CBD87C0F879D93D3D9B1CBD87C0F8

John smile

#1091794 - 09/11/15 08:43 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Kolstad,

That is actually the OPPOSITE of what Ralph Murphy says. Ralph and I are very good friends and he is the one who has always told me UPTEMPO is what motivates morning rush hour as well as afternoon drive time. It is the "beer party songs" that play in the 10 PM bar crowd. Although that has changed dramatically over the past few years.

John, you are comparing apples and oranges. "Pitching songs" are not when established hit artists put up a guitar/piano vocal version of something. Like always on here, everyone seems to miss the point and put some exceptions up when the rules are very clearly defined.

People win lotteries too. That doesn't mean you can bet your families future on winning one.

In the modern era, not something 30 or 50 years ago, ballads are nearly impossible to get even listened to and songs with piano vocal or guitar vocal demos are really not even qualifying for pitches.

As always, do what you want to do. I can only present what I KNOW and experience and what this particular section of the industry . I live in "real ville, not the "I Wish this would happen because I want it to ville."

MAB

#1091795 - 09/11/15 08:49 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,429
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,429
PA
Marc, my point was that you can create a full sounding finished production using only piano and vocal.

Best, John smile

#1091841 - 09/12/15 09:43 AM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,814
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,814
Denmark
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Kolstad,

That is actually the OPPOSITE of what Ralph Murphy says. Ralph and I are very good friends and he is the one who has always told me UPTEMPO is what motivates morning rush hour as well as afternoon drive time. It is the "beer party songs" that play in the 10 PM bar crowd. Although that has changed dramatically over the past few years.

MAB


That's true, Ralph speaks of the 7am on the way to work crowd, and I thought that ballads fits well there. Ralph didn't suggest that. I get what Ralph says, but this mostly accounts for the few songwriters left with a publishing deal that has to comply with what major labels require.

I don't disagree singles are usually uptempo, but there are more to it. Eric Beall also writes about the necessity of the song to be timely and appropriate to the artist. Furthermore there's a rubber band in the definition of a "ballad". A 90bpm song can be dressed up with 16ths in the high hat, and sound midtempo ect. Just to say the ballad issue is not the only criteria for a single.

But basically it's an academic discussion, as I can't come up with a single good reason to write a song for an artist anymore (apart from "fun"), unless you already work in the pipeline. Surely distant dreamers and philanthropists will still do it, but you have to leave all reason behind to still find motivation for it, at least if you are not 15yo, or in a band with gigs.

In todays musical environment, it's almost embarrassing to be the writer of a hit song on a major label. You know it requires 100% compliance with cynical business ends, and if it's not stupid enough, it's not happening.

I guess this is why it's nice to still hear songs like the one Colin posted. It defies gravity love


Buzz Tracks
Making media sweeter

Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/buzztracks
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buzztracks
#1091867 - 09/12/15 02:53 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Saint Petersburg. FL
When I read these comments, I respect Marc's experience and opinions, but I wonder how artists like Norah Jones and Alison Krauss and Ed Sheeran and Jason Isbell manage. They must not really give a hoot whether anyone listens to them on the way to work.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1091868 - 09/12/15 03:37 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode Offline
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Humm,
I demo all of my songs first with a Guitar/Vocal. I can play good enough to demo the first recording. Some I have had more professional demo's done if my own guitar demo is really bad. Some are some are not.

Publishers are not allowed to charge for Publishing or pitching. The basic publishing contract will be at least a 50-50 split of royalties between the publisher and the songwriter or songwriter's.

The publisher takes 50 percent and the other 50 percent is split between the songwriter's if there is more than one. It is all spelled out in the Publishing Contract.

So who is accepting demo's these days? Probably not many.


Ray E. Strode
#1091887 - 09/12/15 05:55 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,712
MidniteBob Offline
Top 100 Poster
MidniteBob  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,712
Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by Colin Ward
When I read these comments, I respect Marc's experience and opinions, but I wonder how artists like Norah Jones and Alison Krauss and Ed Sheeran and Jason Isbell manage. They must not really give a hoot whether anyone listens to them on the way to work.


There's another thread just down the page here that Andy R. posted that gives some insight into how those artists built their careers(and how's about we leave Nora's dad & connections out of it)?

Oh, and let's not forget years of travelling/gigging/dues paying & sacrifices....Oh, and talent:-)

But it only has about 4 responses so far, which is a shame, because the article is written by a woman who was one of the very first YouTube stars and led the way for many who followed.

It's a fascinating tale that takes 10 minutes to read, and then 10 years to digest.

Here's the link in the thread:

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/201...d-deal-nearly-destroyed-my-music-career/

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
#1091942 - 09/13/15 05:41 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: MidniteBob]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
As always, there seems to be a comparrision of apples and oranges when people get on these subjects. There is a HUGE night and day difference in trying to pitch and promote an ARTIST in this business, that has a personality, fan base, face people can love, connect with fans and build market share, and a SONG that is nameless, faceless, and just a part of an artists career. They are totally different although some elements are the same.
But since you wanted to take it in this direction, I will.

How do those Norah Jones, Ed Sheeran's, Alison Krause, (insert name of artist here) make out? Well, while their might be small differences, they all go through essentially the same training grounds. If you study any of them since this started, you are going to find about the same story. Just different towns, cities, people behind the scenes. Now it is MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE AND MUCH LESS ABLE TO ACHIEVE ANY TANGIBLE SUCCESS AT ALL. But this is kind of how it goes:

What do artists do? Why, BE ARTISTS! They start out at 14-15-16 and are totally consumed by music and what they are trying to write. They are ostracized from their schools because they don't fit in. They are often bullied and made fun of. They go to "rock and roll camps." They go to conferences (Frank Brown/South By South West) they show up at open mics. They play every contest ,local open mic writers night in their home town, then their area.
They drive 300 miles to get an 8 second audition for AMERICAN IDOL or the VOICE. They get shot down all the time and spend most of their time playing to TABLES AND CHAIRS. They do local talent contests, win some times but mostly lose.

They go to college thinking they are biding their time and getting some "Ancient English" or psycology degree that will placate their parents just so they are going to school. They play on weekends, usually for beer money. They invite their friends who come just to pick up members of the opposite sex. They flunk out and have terrible grades because they are up late doing stuff with music.
They spend 5-6 hours a day online, facebook, twitter, snap chat, whatever the newest platform is. They play anywhere, and everywhere they can. Sometimes for money,but mostly the money they make barely pays for the gas it takes to get to the gig.

They constantly are offered things that "sound good" but rarely are. They play the opening of the pig festival at the State fair, where they are in a booth at 2:00 in the afternoon 110 degree sun. Nobody gets near them because the pig smell is horrible. They give away every CD they can just to get people to stay for five minutes. Then the people they gave the CD to, throws the CD away, in order to use the cover for the "headliner" to sign their name.

They travel 10,000 to 20,000 miles a year, in broken down cars and vans, with no heat or air conditioning. They get to venues that closed the week before but no body told them. They play middle of the week shows at 10:30 and the only one there is the bartender and she is on her phone texting the whole time how much this band sucks and how she wishes she were dead.
They stay in "Band houses" that have the trash of the last five bands that stayed there. They eat pizza five times a week and anything from the convinient store will sell them.

They call home constantly to borrow money. They go days without eating anything but cokes and potato chips. They lose their voices but still have to play. They get little opening gigs in clubs, and are forgotten the second they are off the stage. They get the 3:30 am slot on a telethon in some podunk town. They arrive after driving 15 hours to get to a club, that has booked another band in front of them. They play outdoor festivals and clubs that could care LESS about who or what they are. They do radio interviews and the DJ has NO IDEA who they are. They can't get radio airplay, go to colleges who hate them, spend money on agency fees, travel to places like SOUTH BY SOUTHWEST with 25,000 other people trying to do the same thing.

The girls most often fall in love with some guy who gets them pregnant and quit (Or get with someone from the same sex that messes their heads up about what is up and what is down). Guys get into drugs and alcohol.

Some, will keep their head about them, be able to manage their costs, build fan base, stay ahead of the curve and end up doing okay. Some will have HUGE viral presence and be able to build their fan base. Some will have great music and can't pay attention, some will have crap and develop a HUGE following. Some become the "darlings of the college campus. Some will play the same bars and frats for ten years. Most quit.

In a very very small group, some will get a "leg up" by an artist/producer/radio station, investor, well wisher that will put them on tours, will get them better slots. Someone gets them a late night slot on Conan or Jimmy Fallon. Some get major label interest. A lot will play one time, get a song that stalls in the 50's and are dropped from their labels as damaged goods. One in about ten million will actually catch fire, and become a star. For about ten minutes, then float away into obscurity.

Some get huge tours or endorsements. Most don't. Some that get the endorsements, will say something incredibly stupid on stage or backstage that goes on to Twitter or TMZ, that gets them on every news station and embarrasses the company. Hear of JARROD and SUBWAY?

They will get on their Twitter or Facebook soapbox and the net will explode with them taking pictures in a Confederate Flag or hanging out at the hunting lodge next to a stuffed lion and their friends think it would be really cute to be on their Facebook feed. Doesn't end well.

Most will OWE a ton of money. In order to "keep impressions up" they have tour buses, limos, stay in fine hotels. Those bills always come due. Some will do very well on the outside, but on the inside are nearly bankrupt.

They will find guest slots on a television show or a movie. They will have some "very well meaning wealthy friends" who are going to "support them forever" and throw some money their way, but a year later after nothing really has come in, decide that they can get a better return on some new stock offering, and that maybe the music business isn't as fun as they thought it was.

They will bounce around, every once in a while striking lightning, and be EVERYWHERE, then just as quickly be replaced by the "next new kid on the block," who just graduated college and everyone says "is a YOUNGER YOU!" at three years younger.

Someone like Allison Krause, was the darling of the BLUEGRASS world, toured for years with major acts, was adored by people like Vince Gill, who put her on his albums, was quoted in Newspapers and magazines years before she was accepted by mainstream audiences.
Ed Sheeran was a major hit overseas in Europe for years before he did anything here. Norah Jones was a jazz/blues/cafe singer for years before anything happened, was mostly in New York.

They got alternative press, were quoted as a "favorite" of the hit writers and artists of a few years before them.Get featured on magazines, Internet blogs, press of all kinds. Most do one two or three self produced or smaller label CDS that go no where and they actually HATE years later. They have all failed nine times out of ten things they do.

They are today's Athletes, three-6 years trying to gain some kind of skill and playing EVERY TERRIBLE JOB they can. Three years in the middle of things getting so close but yet always so far away. Three years in the gravy, still not making money but having a lot of fan presence, and three years on the downhill slide, having everyone tell them what they "should have done," three years ago.
Somewhere, along the way, they start to find other things they want to do, go "back to school," become a Vet. Work in a family member's business, become a player in some local tavern or bar. Or get out completely. Most do that.

What do they do? Anything and everything they can. They have lives that are not boring but not predictable at all.
An interesting way to spend a decade.

That is what they do.

MAB

#1091945 - 09/13/15 06:19 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Ray E. Strode Offline
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Offline
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well Hell Marc,
That sounds just like Little Jimmy Dickens or Willie Nelson after Taxes! But I digress, what's that have to do with the price of Tea in China? No, I'm sorry. that sounds just like Kris Kristofferson.


Ray E. Strode
#1091950 - 09/13/15 07:12 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Hmmmm. Whatever that means.

#1091951 - 09/13/15 07:15 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,269
Nashville, Tn.
Oh yes, there is one more little thing. The people who DO live that lifestyle, struggle and suffer, live it day in and day out, go through enormous disspointments all the time and crawling and begging for every little bit of recognition they can get, those are the people YOU are trying to pitch your songs about "living this, getting some kind of recognition, and making something of themselves," to.
Might want to remember that when you are deciding what of your songs to pitch to someone.

MAB

#1091966 - 09/13/15 08:39 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 253
Chris Erhardt Offline
Top 500 Poster
Chris Erhardt  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 253
NYC/L.A.
MAB: "Most will OWE a ton of money. In order to "keep impressions up" they have tour buses, limos, stay in fine hotels. Those bills always come due. Some will do very well on the outside, but on the inside are nearly bankrupt."

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...nding-monster-ball-tour-article-1.142449


https://tunedly.com

Contact me at chris@tunedly.com
#1091973 - 09/13/15 10:09 PM Re: Proof that a Guitar/Vocal is enough to demo a song! [Re: Chris Erhardt]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,712
MidniteBob Offline
Top 100 Poster
MidniteBob  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,712
Raleigh, ya'll
Originally Posted by songcat
MAB: "Most will OWE a ton of money. In order to "keep impressions up" they have tour buses, limos, stay in fine hotels. Those bills always come due. Some will do very well on the outside, but on the inside are nearly bankrupt."

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...nding-monster-ball-tour-article-1.142449


Hey Song-Chris-Cat!(Ok, I know it's not a nickname that will stick, but it's fun to say...As is Song-Cat-Chris:-))

Thanks for this!!!

It's easy to rip on those who've "Made it"...But I suspect that if we could walk a mile in their shoes, that we might gain a whole different perspective.

There's a price to be paid for success.

Midnite



Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
CraigAllen, Styillz, Cloudrider, Don1955, Autumn22
21281 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics120,532
Posts1,134,117
Members21,281
Average Posts Daily41
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"The great thing about a dream come true, is that it is born with a great appetite. That appetite keeps it growing and evolving and it swallows up all those other dreams you have and spits them back out as reality as well." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0