JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Fascinating (History, 9/11, prophecy) you name it!!

Go back and take the time to read what I wrote.

For one, you'll see that you quoted me incorrectly.

You will also see your point was already addressed.

So your being pissed of was entirely self induced

Aaron wrote..."BUT you cannot know that there is a god any more than I can know there isn't a god."

Whoops. Looks like the atheist is going on blind faith. How can that be? Or...perhaps you're really more agnostic than atheist where you just aren't completely sure. Only you can make that distinction. The above statement seems more in that direction than that of a true atheist.

While it's true that a creator cannot be proven or dis-proven empirically, we can look for evidence of His existence. It's all around us in the physical Universe. Everything is fine tuned to ridiculous extent however and wherever you look on both a macro and micro level. I won't go into any of it here as you you have rendered your mind closed and have rebuffed my offer to have an honest and civil discussion about it. Then there is historical and archaeological evidence. Even more compelling is prophesy that has come to fruition, especially those which were fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus and fulfilled to a "T".

Where is there any evidence at all that a creator doesn't exist. Nothing in the Universe happens without a cause and effect. That there is something here at all (effect) rather than nothing is in and of itself evidence for intelligent design that lies outside of the creation itself, ie. outside of space and time. I challenge you to illustrate just one instance of an effect without a cause in physical existence.

As I stated earlier, I could share some ideas and information with you that you might find compelling but you are unwilling to do even that. And I'm not talking about preaching to you, but rather, merely an exchange of information. Your faith is strong, young Jedi. And that's all you have to your belief system...faith and blind faith at that. I can at least show myriads of evidence for believing what I believe.

I can list evidence from many disciplines that argue for the existence of, not only a creator but that He is the God of Judaeo-Christian belief. How much time do you have? But alas, you are so afraid for some reason to have an honest two way dialog that there is no use in my doing so here.

As for me, all I've ever been interested in is the truth as far as I can humanly know it. If it were humanly possible to know absolute truth and it flew in the face of everything I ever believed, why would I want to continue believing a lie? I wouldn't. But through years of research I've come to believe what I do. And I know why I believe it. Unlike you however, I'm willing to have the exchange of ideas.

I will give you one fulfilled prophesy that cannot be refuted and it can be empirically proven to have been fulfilled quite literally. Check out Ezekiel chapters 43 and 44, written some 2000 years prior to it's fulfillment. In a vision an angel of the Lord has Ezekiel measuring different parts of the temple. When he gets to the Eastern Gate it says the glory of the God of Israel enters through the gate. Then the angel takes him to other parts of the temple. When they return to the Eastern gate it reads thus...Eze 44:1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
NTB STR
Eze 44:2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
STR
Eze 44:3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same

Okay. "So what?" you say. Well, in the year 1541, the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the 1st, himself a Muslim, sealed the Eastern Gate. Historians disagree as to why he did this, but legend abound that, learning of the prophecies which predicted the Messiah's entrance through the Eastern Gate, Suleiman tried his best to make sure it wouldn't happen during his reign. And just in case a sealed entrance didn't thwart the Messiah's coming, Muslims built a cemetery directly in front of the gate - conventional wisdom being that a Jewish Holy man would never defile himself by walking through a Muslim cemetery.

You doubt this? Google the Eastern Gate or Golden Gate and you will see photographs of it, sealed up in all it's glory. Oh...and Ezekiel was written somewhere between 593 and 565 BC.

And that is merely one of hundreds of prophesies that came quite literally true, some 300 of them depicting Jesus' life, death and resurrection alone. Want more?

Steve

Well Actually,
Some say every thing was always here and others say it started with a Big Bang about 13.4 Billion years ago. At least the latest version. So now the question How many Big Bangs were there? Golly I don't know. Life can be great so enjoy it! That is in Earth Years. Now do you realize the Earth and our own Galaxy wasn't even formed yet when the Big Bang happened! Now there's something for you to chew on!

If God created everything then who or what created God.

Actually there is a difference Aaron. There’s much more evidence supporting a creator. For the obvious reason, we human beings came into existence. I’m here, I do exist. One gram of my DNA data would fill a thousand CD’s. The incredible complexities of life indicate an intelligent agent, thus a creator. If I came across an amazing music manuscript buried deep within the Earth’s surface, different than anything known to man, I’d have no doubt it was created by someone, a creator. I wouldn’t believe that the manuscript just materialized out of thin air.

John

Gonna sneak in and out again as quickly as I can, and only in regards to The Big Bang Theory. And forgive me if I word something wrong, but you can always look it up fer yerselves.

The majority of scientists (especially the Darwinian branch) was violently opposed to The Big Bang Theory originally. Until that time, it was thought that "matter" was eternal, but the Big Bang Gang shot that one down...It caused quite the hoopla, lemme tell ya...

As for Atheism-Agnostics-Faith...I'm in the Hamlet Camp, as opposed to the Horatio...Whether it's a want or a need doesn't really matter to me, all I know is that I prefer a Universe that is a bit beyond my philosophies and imagination.

I am also fond of the concept of the Hindu "Dance of Shiva", part of which is that God(The Eternal) created us so that God(The Eternal) could "experience" things through us, since God(The Eternal) WAS everything, there was nothing outside of Itself...Therefore, when we laugh, God can experience joy. When we cry, God can experience pain and loss...etc...But then again, I'm a born-again Christian who believes in reincarnation...go figure:-)

Bowing out again....Carry on.

Midnite

Okay John, if you don't believe things can materialize out of air then where did God come from?

I think it takes more faith to believe that god was always there than to believe life was created during the big bang.

The prophesy that you want me to believe is true is disagreed upon by historians. There is no smoking gun evidence. All they have are opinions as to why they think he closed the eastern gate.

Speaking of cause & effect maybe you can tell me what caused God?

Though we mere mortals can’t possibly comprehend it, I believe God always existed. In the same manner we can’t comprehend the concept of “nothing”, eternity, or the end destination of the Universe.

John

I don't speak for everyone but I can comprehend the concept of nothing when we die.

Thoughts from a mere mortal.

Dark space is emptiness of everything pitch black nothing there not even time itself and this was the way for how long nobody really knows maybe billions of our years and say the pitch blackness of space had no where to go but inwards or outwards but it doesn't really matter because there is nothing there but lets say the darkness of emptiness is growing inside the pitch blackness of it all and then, BOOM.

Reminds me of that great Bob Dylan song "License to Kill"

https://youtu.be/6CEfNY02n5E

Hi Pat!

Though even "darkness" is something. I can't imagine what absolute "nothing" could be. Nothing can only exist prior to existence. Once something exists, it can never be nothing.

John

Hi Aaron and all. Hope you had a great weekend.

Aaron, I'm not sure what historians could disagree upon. Ezekiel was written some 2000 years before the gate was walled up just as prophesied. No way around that. Now if your meaning is that no one can really say for sure what was the real intention of the Sultan was for closing off the gate yes, you would be correct. But the real issue is that it did come to pass through his hand as prophesied whether he knew he was the instrument or not.

As for the question both you and Pat asked...Who or what created God?, that is a quite logical question to ask. I asked it myself when I was younger as have people for centuries I suppose. Here are a couple explanations that made sense to me. Maybe they will be helpful to you as well.

Today, physicists across the philosophical spectrum acknowledge that the space-time theorems are unassailable. If the universe contains mass and if general relativity reliably describes the movements of bodies in the universe, the theorems are valid. Those theorems establish that space and time had a beginning at the origin of the universe. They imply that the causal agent of the universe is not subject to space and time—thus, that agent can create space-time dimensions at will.

Of course, any entity—such as the universe and everything subject to the laws and dimensions of the universe—that is constrained to a single dimension of time, where time cannot be stopped or reversed, must have a beginning. Ultimately, such entities must be traceable back to a creation event. However, an entity not constrained by time need not have been created. Yeah, it makes my head explode to try and wrap my mind around such a realm, being limited to just four dimensions as we are but that's the best explanation I've heard coming from reputable physicists I've read.


The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimensions of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

That might not ring true with you but it does make sense to me. In the end it all comes back to faith but not necessarily blind faith. Most important for me is that I have experienced God's presence and love in my own life on a daily basis. I've also experienced events in my life that just seem too much to just be mere coincidence. These are things I can't deny even if I wanted to try to explain them away naturally. I've witnessed similar events in the lives of others I know and have known. Most notable is the dramatic change that has occurred in my life and others I've know who have come to Christ. I can't explain it but I've witnessed it first hand so that is enough for me to take things on faith.

I could go on and on but I'll let that suffice. I could write volumes more as to how I came to my faith. This is just a miniscule part of my own story which is all I can go by. Probably won't mean much to you at this point in your life and maybe never will. Either way, I'm not one to preach to others. I can share my story-what has happened in my own life with others if they are genuinely curious and ask but I won't push my beliefs on others or argue just for argument's sake. As a follower of Jesus Christ I am to act in love to both friend and enemy alike, the latter admittedly hard to do sometimes. Oh, and by saying that I'm not implying that I count you as an adversary. Just want to clarify that.

In the future, if you have sincere questions for me I'll be more than happy to try and answer to the best of my ability. If I don't know the answer I'll try and find out from someone more knowledgeable than myself and if that doesn't help I have no problem simply admitting that I don't know the answer. Fair enough? Feel free to PM me anytime.

Have a great week, Aaron and all.

Steve

Well!,
I am amazed Little stevie that you are attempting to explain the Universe and how we all got here. Ain't that what Adam was trying to explain in the Book Of Genisis when he proclaimed, or so we read that in the beginning....A question with no answer. I have pondered it a bit but no matter how deep you go into it there is no way to explain once there was nothing and now there is something. My assumption after much study is we will be here forever, in some form or another. Everything goes in cycles, of every type and size. Write a Hit!

Well,
Glad my post gave you some early Monday morning amusement, Ray. First off, I was answering a couple of questions that were addressed directly to me which I tried to answer to the best of my ability in an attempt to be helpful to the ones who posed the questions.

By the way, I didn't realize that Adam wrote Genesis given it is attributed to Moses. But, I learn something new every day. I also didn't realize that the first two chapters of Genesis were in the form of a question rather than a declaration. You, Sir are certainly a biblical scholar extraordinaire so I will in the future look to the KRV of the Bible, better known as the King Ray Version. Especially the Book of Strode, where all the questions are.

And now, without further adieu I shall go about writing a hit.

Cheers,
Steve

Well Little Steve,
I am amused at the Musings of "Experts" in the Subject of Religion every day! There was that Pastor a year or two ago that Proclaimed the "End" was here. Maybe it was, Hell I don't know. The 64 dollar question is, do you really exist or am I the only one! I'm not sure I can prove you actually exist now, can I? Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread! Now about those contradictions in the Bible....Did you know the Bible was never meant to be used like it is being used today. Some say God has a sense of humor. No! Say it isn't so!

Now if I could just figure out, Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg?

Ray wrote "no matter how deep you go into it there is no way to explain once there was nothing and now there is something"


If your conclusion appears wrong, go back and examine your premise.


First off, OUR universe appears to be just under 14 billion or so years old, but we cannot know what came before, nor do we currently know if something exists OUTSIDE our universe.


So the "nothing" we came from was what was happening before The Big Bang, which was simply our OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE coming into the time frame that we can observe it. We measured the lifespan of the universe by calculating how far away the furthest reaches of our universe is, then calculating back using the speed of light to determine how many years it would take for that furthest light to reach us.


In this exercise, researchers found that this far away light appears to be heading away from us. They know this because the light waves "red shift", cause by an increase in wavelength caused by a receding light source. Receding sources, sources moving away from us, means our OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE is expanding.


So no one can say that there was nothing before the Big Bang, and no one knows what is outside our OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE.


So I think Steve is spot on ...except for his reference to time.


Time is an artificial construct created by us OBSERVERS to provide us with an organizational framework. The universe itself does not need time. It is simply mass and energy dymanically permutating through its various forms within a spatial volume we call the universe. What if we did not exist? Well Terra would still orbit Sol, but there would be no one there to call one rotation a year (or call our sun Sol, or our Earth Terra for that matter)


But we needed time to organize ourselves. Meet me at 10am at so and such a place is the cornerstone of civilization, allowing collaboration, trade etc...and because we use time to measure velocity, acceleration etc, it became an important tool in physics and our study of the universe. But that does not mean the universe requires "time" as we understand it or use it. It's "time" is simply the sequential permutation of form created by mass and energy


So that makes his statement of God and time unnecessary. God, as part of the characteristics we have ascribed to God, is not bound by "time" nor is God bound by our universe.


And the fact we are uncovering more and more scientific knowledge should not cause us to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. In my mind, just because we find evidence that the world was not "created in seven days", or that dinosaurs were never mentioned in our Holy Books does not mean God does not exists. It simply means our understanding of our universe and our God evolves with our knowledge and understanding.


So Darwin's Theory is not a problem for me, and there is overwhelming evidence that natural selection via the passing on to successive generations of genes that help the species adapt and survive is how species evolve. But just because we find this to be the likely way "life works" does not mean God does not exist. It just means those who wrote the Holy Scriptures had it wrong....and remember they were trying to explain their universe without modern tools and a limited understanding of it. Even if it is true that they "heard this from God", they were still fallible as humans and could only put it in the contexts they could understand.


Maybe it was God's design to reveal things is such a way as to spur our curiousity??

Ray wrote "no matter how deep you go into it there is no way to explain once there was nothing and now there is something"

That's why I concluded that there always had to be something, i.e., God, the Creator. Can't comprehend it - but then we humans do have limitations.

John

I've always heard that conversion (belief in the Almighty) often occurs in foxholes. I don't read the Bible often enough and when I do, I don't seek prophesies but instead, look for the things that provide comfort and promise for the future of mankind. We live in a complicated world full of distractions and idle pursuits.

It would be wonderful to be able to leave the world a better place than it was when I arrived... but I have doubts. Not about God... simply at the future of our Country now that we have taken steps to assure the will of the majority can never be carried out. We pay "lip service" to Democracy but I have never felt less empowered than now.

All my best,

----Dave

Hi Lynn

Well first of all i didn't read the book but i watch the video and yes he certainly seem to be trying to prove what goes around comes around and i will admit really very strange, im not really a believer in all this bible and god thing but i will say its part of our history so hopefully there's good reason for it, but as i said in a earlier post these so call holy books seriously needs to be updated because in the religious world they continually seem to be fighting the same wars that they fought thousand of years back, war of the gods and the sadness of it all is there's going to be more killing of the innocents.

The comparison between Israel and America as far as i know Israel has one religion well they had at the time he writes about whereas America as far as i know has many so what exactly is god plans, i mean what happen on that day in 2001 was absolutely terrible and now this book is saying god wants, what exactly does god want, one thing for sure this guy is definitely going to make a awful lot of money from the sale of his book but i say again these so call holy books seriously needs to be updated.

Great thread BTW

"I've always heard that conversion (belief in the Almighty) often occurs in foxholes" - Dave

I finished reading "Citizen Soldiers" last month by Stephen E. Ambrose. Covers the Bulge and Normandy from the surviving soldiers. And this was mentioned numerous times by those that were there.

John

I thought the atheist was extinct. Hmm