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#1019729 - 08/15/13 08:13 PM Collabs.  
Joined: May 2013
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L. James Tanner Offline
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L. James Tanner  Offline
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Indiana
I have never collab'ed before and I don't know the etiquette involved. But my question is, If two people want to put my lyrics to music and I pick one, and after the music is done. I don't like it and some else sends me music for it I do like. Does the 1st guy get stake in my lyrics regardless if the music is different? I know that may sound like a newbie question...(because it is)but I had to get it off my chest.

#1019732 - 08/15/13 08:32 PM Re: Collabs. [Re: L. James Tanner]  
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Bugsey Offline
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Bugsey  Offline
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No, I dont think so. It happens alot.

But I guess there's a possibility of the first person claiming he influenced the second version.

But really if you write alot of lyrics, you simply move on to the next song and make sure to try a new collaborator to work with.

The odds of it making substantial money are lottery kind of odds

Kind of silly going to court over 30 dollars or so!


#1019755 - 08/16/13 01:01 AM Re: Collabs. [Re: Bugsey]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,199
Bill Osofsky Offline
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Bill Osofsky  Offline
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Utah
Set out the terms before you cowrite. That it's not a song until you approve the music. And even after that, you can give the lyrics to someone else. Worst case, if you make money on the new version you may be required to keep the original writer as a 50% partner with you and the new composer splitting the other 50%. But you're hardly ever going to make any money, so it's not a real big concern.


#1019761 - 08/16/13 02:18 AM Re: Collabs. [Re: Bill Osofsky]  
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D) Offline
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D)  Offline
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Hi Again, Bro LJ!!!

Today ya see a LOT of Pop Songs that have 4-5, maybe More Co-Writers...so looks like many a tune's penned by a Committee these days! (Which prolly means the Co-write got Further Co-Writes before it ended up "Hit-Worthy"...)

Which, maybe that IS what a Successful Song requires sometimes...

"Whatever Works" is a good rule of thumb... IS a good idea to put What You Have In-Mind in-Writing before starting a Co-write. (I usually put it into a PM here/Get Agreement/keep the PM "On File" and away we go.) Not TOO much to agree-upon: Standard "Splits" are 50-50 (Tho you & your co-writer MAY have to give a Major Artist half that to get it cut...) and ya split the demo costs. I also request my co-writers contact me with their address/phone number Annually...since most songs take over a year to get anything cut..and it's expected you'll let your Co-Writer know IF something's going right...

And...a request that "No outside writers to be used without the approval of both writers" will save ya considerable angst & lawyers..& give you both Equal Footing on future Changes that might be made to your Creation.

Good Luck with your co-writing...Two Brains usually ARE better'n one...you'll see!

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

#1019762 - 08/16/13 02:18 AM Re: Collabs. [Re: Bill Osofsky]  
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D) Offline
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Hi Again, Bro LJ!!!

Today ya see a LOT of Pop Songs that have 4-5, maybe More Co-Writers...so looks like many a tune's penned by a Committee these days! (Which prolly means the Co-write got Further Co-Writes before it ended up "Hit-Worthy"...)

Which, maybe that IS what a Successful Song requires sometimes...

"Whatever Works" is a good rule of thumb... IS a good idea to put What You Have In-Mind in-Writing before starting a Co-write. (I usually put it into a PM here/Get Agreement/keep the PM "On File" and away we go.) Not TOO much to agree-upon: Standard "Splits" are 50-50 (Tho you & your co-writer MAY have to give a Major Artist half that to get it cut...) and ya split the demo costs. I also request my co-writers contact me with their address/phone number Annually...since most songs take over a year to get anything cut..and it's expected you'll let your Co-Writer know IF something's going right...

And...a request that "No outside writers to be used without the approval of both writers" will save ya considerable angst & lawyers..& give you both Equal Footing on future Changes that might be made to your Creation.

Good Luck with your co-writing...Two Brains usually ARE better'n one...you'll see!

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

PS: Don't think I've ever HAD 2 Composers wanna Co- on any lyric of mine at the same time...Congrats!!! Prolly Ideally ya'd let Both know BEFORE either begins composing that it's a "Competition" and you'll pick the winner. One might drop out, saving you potential legal hassles later-on. Perhaps requesting a short "Sample" melody'd be safer, but once there are Two Different melodies to your single lyric, both Composers DO have the right to market the "Finished Song"...unless you spell out..ideally in-writing..that YOU are gonna be Final Judge on the SOLE "Winning" Version of Your "Musicated" Lyric.

Last edited by "Tampa Stan" Good; 08/16/13 02:29 AM.
#1019801 - 08/16/13 02:10 PM Re: Collabs. [Re: "Tampa Stan" Good (D)]  
Joined: May 2001
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Well,
I don't co-write. I suggest you buy yourself a guitar and learn to pay it. you can buy a good guitar for about one hundered dollars at some of the outlets such as Musician's Friend or Guitar Center or sometimes even locally. Add a Gig Bag, an Electronic Tuner and you can also buy a DVD that you can watch for tips of how to play. You may also find someone locally you can team up with who plays.

If not you would need to work out a Co-Wrtiing Agreement you can use. It is highly recommended that any Co-Writing agreement split a song equally between writer's no matter what part a writer contributes. The agreement should already be written with a place to add the song title and names of any Co-writer's. If there are people in the room when you write, they are not included unless it as agreed in advance.

An agreement should only be between writer's. If someone wants to negoiate an agreement if they cut the song, that needs to be a seperate agreement, not part of a Co-Writing Agreement. Good luck!


Ray E. Strode
#1019824 - 08/16/13 07:11 PM Re: Collabs. [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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L. James Tanner Offline
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L. James Tanner  Offline
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Indiana
Thanks all for the tips and advice, I appreciate it much.
As for buying a guitar, it wouldn't do me any good, I have a pinky on my fret hand that has been damaged for 20 years and doesn't work very well.

#1041886 - 03/10/14 05:12 AM Re: Collabs. [Re: L. James Tanner]  
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Pat Hardy Offline
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Pat Hardy  Offline
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CAVEAT: IANAL, so consult one, as always.


this is an excellent question, and it is the reason for collaboration agreements signed.

With a CA, you can avoid all the pitfalls of the default empowerments granted by copyright law on collaborations
and the operative word, if you read the law, and you should,
it says that a "copyright exists when the work is in tangible form".

However, things are a bit different with derivative works.

If you don't have a CA signed, make sure you don't record
the final result of both lyric and music, or put it to
a sheet music because ( i.e., "tangible form" )
that is the point at which all the
empowerments granted copyright to collaborators kick in
( which is why I have CA's signed, so I can record without it being
a "copyright" because I get the collaborator to agree
in writing this is so, i.e, that the "tangible form" does not
exist as a state of copyright, until I, as composer, register the copyright via my online account at www.copyright.gov and I, as composer, reserve the right to execute the registration ).

Get an attorney to write the collaboration agreement to your specifications, and consult with an attorney, because, yes,
there are serious ramifications you need to know before you
embark on any collaboration with anyone. if whomever you collaborate doesn't want to sign a CA, if
you think you are really talented and might some day make it big, well, I wouldn't work with that person, if I were you, but that
is me. and, the big reason is for bad experiences I have and later regretted that I didn't have a CA signed.

Pat Hardy Lockwood

#1042005 - 03/11/14 12:38 PM Re: Collabs. [Re: Pat Hardy]  
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Bugsey Offline
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Bugsey  Offline
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Originally Posted by pathardy

CAVEAT: IANAL, so consult one, as always.


this is an excellent question, and it is the reason for collaboration agreements signed.

With a CA, you can avoid all the pitfalls of the default empowerments granted by copyright law on collaborations
and the operative word, if you read the law, and you should,
it says that a "copyright exists when the work is in tangible form".

However, things are a bit different with derivative works.

If you don't have a CA signed, make sure you don't record
the final result of both lyric and music, or put it to
a sheet music because ( i.e., "tangible form" )
that is the point at which all the
empowerments granted copyright to collaborators kick in
( which is why I have CA's signed, so I can record without it being
a "copyright" because I get the collaborator to agree
in writing this is so, i.e, that the "tangible form" does not
exist as a state of copyright, until I, as composer, register the copyright via my online account at www.copyright.gov and I, as composer, reserve the right to execute the registration ).

Get an attorney to write the collaboration agreement to your specifications, and consult with an attorney, because, yes,
there are serious ramifications you need to know before you
embark on any collaboration with anyone. if whomever you collaborate doesn't want to sign a CA, if
you think you are really talented and might some day make it big, well, I wouldn't work with that person, if I were you, but that
is me. and, the big reason is for bad experiences I have and later regretted that I didn't have a CA signed.

Pat Hardy Lockwood


Thats the part of the law, that is kind of iffy. Two people can write a song all day or night, and never put any of it in tangible form. For example, they can improvise a song at a gig, and never record it or write it down. I knew a band that used to do this, they would say "ok, lets pick up where we left off last week, how did that go again, it was kind of fun to watch not just improvised solos and music, but songs.

If a member of the audience went home and wrote it down or recorded it, and then copyrighted it, he would then own the song.

it's clear the guys at the gig wrote it, but the other guy has the document saying it's his.

To me, all a copyright says is "i was the first person to claim this song for myself" actually, somebody else could have copyrighted your song before you did, and you wouldn't know cause they dont listen to what comes in the door.

Not sure any copyright is real protection, especially when up against a big name artist, where everybody is inclined to believe them.

Nothing really proves anybody wrote anything.

Just my opinion.

#1042070 - 03/11/14 11:38 PM Re: Collabs. [Re: Bugsey]  
Joined: Sep 2011
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Pat Hardy Offline
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Pat Hardy  Offline
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Every lawyer I've ever talked to says that registering the copyright is a good idea, including my ex-girlfriend, who is a lawyer.

Pat Hardy Lockwood


#1042073 - 03/12/14 12:31 AM Re: Collabs. [Re: Pat Hardy]  
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Bugsey Offline
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Bugsey  Offline
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im sure it's not a bad idea. No reason not to do it, I just dont know how much protection it offers, but sure, better to do than not to do. Most people will do it to be safe.


Last edited by Bugsey; 03/12/14 12:37 AM.
#1042157 - 03/13/14 06:32 AM Re: Collabs. [Re: Bugsey]  
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Bernd Harmsen Offline
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Bernd Harmsen  Offline
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Posts: 413
By the seven seas

Svein:
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11956324

Komir:
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12226344

myself:
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11945601

As for the rights: Lyrics - me; Music - Svein, or Angela, or me, respectively

What exactly should be the problem?! There are three different songs that happen to have the same words. None is registered with a PRO yet, yet Komir's Version will probably be registered this year because it's going to be performed publicly.

My approach: the more different versions exist the better the chance that one makes it ;-)

Have fun!
Bernd


Bernd
[url]http://bernd-harmsen.com[/url]

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