10 members (Fdemetrio, VNORTH2, Gary E. Andrews, Perry Neal Crawford, couchgrouch, Sunset Poet, Guy E. Trepanier, bennash, Bill Draper, David Gill),
4,088
guests, and
270
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.
By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
How about modulations, changing the tonal center of a song? The old standby is what we call, in Nasvhille, the new five. We'd play chords, in C for example, C F G C A(new 5) D. Now we're in D. For a half step we might go, C F G C Ab (new 5) Db. Now we're in Db. What kind of modulations do you like or write? Know any wierd ones? All the Best, Mike ------------------ You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 195
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 195 |
I think my favorite modulation of all time is in Cole Porter's "True Love". I play it in A, and the modulation changes to C. The transition chord is an F where the melody stays on A during the shift, then to a C chord, then G, then C to E7, which leads back to A again.
At the first modulation from A to F has the notes move from A, C#, E to F, A, C. So, the A hangs in there, while the other two notes move one half-step, in either direction. When the focus shifts back "home", the notes are C, E, G, then E, G#, B. This time the E hangs on, while the other notes shift one half-step in either direction. There is an almost eerie symmetry at work that delights the ear. The song is so simple, but haunting, because of the use of diminished chords, and that wonderful modulation.
Bad modulations are a "pet peeve" of mine. The worst are those cheesy "slide up a half step, and if that wasn't cheesy enough, let's do it again". I always wonder if Willy Nelson suggested that silly slide at the end of "Crazy", or whether is snuck in after it was out of his hands . . .
Cool topic! Emmit Sycamore
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 823
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 823 |
That half-step-up is a pet peeve for me, too. It seems like it's been used too many times to add "interest" to a song that is already done. I say write something more if it's getting boring, or make it a short song, but don't just go up a half-step and repeat.
I always think of Barry Manilow. --Jean
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Hey Jean, Hey Emmit, I remember when the first popular country song modulated up a half. Homer and Jethro cut a similar song, as a parody, they had the orchestra sweep up with the half step modulation, then they came in singing...in the old key. I think modulating up a half was probably cheesy even before it was ever done. But, I like cheese! Willie didn't write that into "Crazy." It wasn't even in Patsy's hit version of it. Here's a teaser, name some songs that modulate down. Mike ------------------ You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 33
Casual Observer
|
Casual Observer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 33 |
Hi Mike, Penny Lane The verse is in B, the chorus in A. Very Strange.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983
Top 500 Poster
|
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983 |
I was taught IIm then V then I all in the new key. So, something like (going from C to A) C G C (transition) Bm E A.
Boo...my name is Doug
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Yeah, the two minor makes a nice modulator. It's nice to know how Liszt was taught.
Don, very strange indeed. Country has some also. I'll give a hint at the easy one, J.R. did it.
Mike
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983
Top 500 Poster
|
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983 |
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar: Yeah, the two minor makes a nice modulator. It's nice to know how Liszt was taught. Mike</font> ha - ya I'm sure the real Liszt knew just a tad more tricks too. As for the dork behind the name here - well - he's just lucky to know a C from a D chord....
Boo...my name is Doug
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,524
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,524 |
I modulate every 28 days and stop the midol when I get in a good mood.
Jerry
------------------ Jerry Jakala
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Funny Jerry, That's how often I play my Pre Modulation Solo. It's a dated sounding piece, some would call it a period piece. Mike ------------------ You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 195
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 195 |
Isn't there a version of "Sixteen tons" that modulates down. What a way to show off a deep bass voice!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372 |
try the good old 2mi7 to dom7 into the tonic of the new key..allows you to do almost any modulation you desire
bob
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983
Top 500 Poster
|
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983 |
ooh ooh - raises hand - I have another one also. During the modulation period, simply play notes common to both keys before doing the V (if you do the V). I actually just did a piece that modulates from C to F# (Liszt's divine key - for anybody keeping score). That was wild. What, they have B in common and that is about it. I used kind of a chromatic run in it too with 'important' notes..like C# C G# G B A# A.
Boo...my name is Doug
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Good ideas. I also like using the melody note as the point of departure. In the Doobie Brothers' "What a Fool Believes," the modulation takes place on the word "be-lieves" they are sung as an octave. The first note "be..." is the one of the old key, the second note "lieves..." is the six of the new key, making the new key the (fill in the blank) of the old key? Mike ------------------ You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 33
Casual Observer
|
Casual Observer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 33 |
Mike, Doesn't "I Walk the Line" modulate several times in a weird way? You know country way better than I do. I always remembered the song but I didn't recall the key change. I heard it the other day on an oldies station...Somebody hums the first note of each key change...The funniest thing I ever heard. Was that Johnny? Or somebody prompting him with the first note of the new key? It's a riot!! I never remembered that.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,649
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,649 |
Mike, Here's a slightly uncommon key modulation that I used in one song...key of G modulating to key of A (2/4 or 4/4 time): G-C-F-Bb-A7-D-D-Eb-E7-A 2 beats on G-C-F-Bb-A7-D and then 1 beat on D-Eb and 4 beats on E7, then start to progression in the new key of A. That is a very simplistic description. Does it make sense? When I was a young teenager in the early '60s, my local guitar hero, Charlie Tucker, said "I don't splain 'em...I just pick 'em"! And that often describes me...I can't always explain what I did in the jargon of music theory, but can damn sure play it...most of the time! Alan Nice thread. A key modulation always brings new energy to a song. ------------------ If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most. Don't take more than your love can buy, Don't live faster than your angel can fly... Hal Ketchum Alan on Soundclick Alan's Web Site [This message has been edited by sideman66 (edited 09-20-2006).]
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 417
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 417 |
Hi! Anyone out there ever end their song using the flatted sixth before returning to the key chord. For example in C go to A flat then back to C at the end. Another device commonly used in jazz is to end with the flatted fourth minor then back to the Key chord. Say in F use b flat minor then back to F at the end. Frank V.
Softkrome
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,814
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,814 |
Walk the line goes 1 F 2 Bb 3 Eb 4 Bb 5 F
and yes that's Johnny finding the key by humming. And try as I might, I can't quite sing that low C at the end.
Herbie
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Cool Stuff, Alan, going G to A with: G-C-F-Bb-A7-D-D-Eb-E7-A Is like going 1 to 4 to b7 to b3, moving down to 27 to 5, 5 again, b6, 67(now becoming a new five) to the new one, A. You could go as far as to say it was the Key of G going to C to F to the six of F, D up to the key of Ab to the key of A. But basically, after playing it, it sounds good! Frank, Notice that Alan has a flat six in his progression The old song "Bye Bye Blues" puts in the flat six before the final one as you write, the four minor is used a lot, in modern country Wynonna's "No One Else On Earth" uses the "feel" of a four minor (it's actually the four minor of the four LOL) five measures from the final chorus of the basic movement. Funny, the six flat is very similar to the four minor, in C, the four is made minor by putting an Ab in the F chord. The six flat in C (Ab C Eb) is the final three notes of the F minor seventh. In traditional theory, the flatted six dominant seven chord is known as the German six. More than you wanted to know eh? All this trivia I've learned and five bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Herbie, Cash was the MAN. He was the most amazing combination of competance, limitation, strength, fragility, and basic humanity that I can think of. Similar to Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, and Louis Armstrong he was a combination of genius and the common man. At a time when the most "uptown" and sophisticated of the pop/jazz singers would have never dared release such modulations to the radio, Cash not only released them, but, as you said, hummed the key before singing. He dared to be humble. All the Best, Mike ------------------ You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 417
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 417 |
Mike, You hit it right on. The Ab chord is the top portion of the Fm7 and thats probably why it fits well with the Key chord C although when you play it it gives a distinctly different effect to the music than when you use the Fm7. I would have never recognized it if you hadn't mentioned it though. Mike, you are the man when it comes to music theory. Thanks Frank V.
Softkrome
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Thank you, Frank, not the Man, just an old picker. Another reason why the flat six has a special sound is because it's a sharp five. It sort of "suspends" (not to be confused with a suspension) the listener, waiting for it to drop to the five, much in the way you hear it in melodic/harmonic minor melodies...the spanish/arabian influence. All the Best, Mike ------------------ You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,579 Likes: 13
Top 10 Poster
|
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,579 Likes: 13 |
Another great post by Mike!
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@gmail.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney "Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
|
|
|
We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.
|
|
Forums117
Topics125,717
Posts1,160,950
Members21,470
|
Most Online37,523 Jan 25th, 2020
|
|
"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
|
|
|
|