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#391294 - 07/06/06 12:47 PM modulations  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
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Nashville Tennessee
How about modulations, changing the tonal center of a song?

The old standby is what we call, in Nasvhille, the new five. We'd play chords, in C for example, C F G C A(new 5) D. Now we're in D.

For a half step we might go, C F G C Ab (new 5) Db. Now we're in Db.

What kind of modulations do you like or write? Know any wierd ones?

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#391295 - 07/07/06 02:49 PM Re: modulations  
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EmmitSycamore Offline
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I think my favorite modulation of all time is in Cole Porter's "True Love". I play it in A, and the modulation changes to C. The transition chord is an F where the melody stays on A during the shift, then to a C chord, then G, then C to E7, which leads back to A again.

At the first modulation from A to F has the notes move from A, C#, E to F, A, C. So, the A hangs in there, while the other two notes move one half-step, in either direction. When the focus shifts back "home", the notes are C, E, G, then E, G#, B. This time the E hangs on, while the other notes shift one half-step in either direction. There is an almost eerie symmetry at work that delights the ear. The song is so simple, but haunting, because of the use of diminished chords, and that wonderful modulation.

Bad modulations are a "pet peeve" of mine. The worst are those cheesy "slide up a half step, and if that wasn't cheesy enough, let's do it again". I always wonder if Willy Nelson suggested that silly slide at the end of "Crazy", or whether is snuck in after it was out of his hands . . .

Cool topic!
Emmit Sycamore

#391296 - 07/07/06 03:09 PM Re: modulations  
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Jean Larson Offline
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That half-step-up is a pet peeve for me, too. It seems like it's been used too many times to add "interest" to a song that is already done. I say write something more if it's getting boring, or make it a short song, but don't just go up a half-step and repeat.

I always think of Barry Manilow. --Jean

#391297 - 07/07/06 03:21 PM Re: modulations  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Hey Jean, Hey Emmit,

I remember when the first popular country song modulated up a half. Homer and Jethro cut a similar song, as a parody, they had the orchestra sweep up with the half step modulation, then they came in singing...in the old key.

I think modulating up a half was probably cheesy even before it was ever done.

But, I like cheese! [Linked Image]

Willie didn't write that into "Crazy." It wasn't even in Patsy's hit version of it.

Here's a teaser, name some songs that modulate down.

Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#391298 - 07/08/06 05:35 AM Re: modulations  
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Don Bellew Offline
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Hi Mike,
Penny Lane
The verse is in B, the chorus in A. Very Strange.

#391299 - 07/08/06 05:50 AM Re: modulations  
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Doug/Liszt Laughing Offline
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I was taught IIm then V then I all in the new key. So, something like (going from C to A) C G C (transition) Bm E A.


Boo...my name is Doug
#391300 - 07/08/06 12:56 PM Re: modulations  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Yeah, the two minor makes a nice modulator. It's nice to know how Liszt was taught.

Don, very strange indeed. Country has some also. I'll give a hint at the easy one, J.R. did it.

Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#391301 - 07/08/06 02:42 PM Re: modulations  
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Doug/Liszt Laughing Offline
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Doug/Liszt Laughing  Offline
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
Yeah, the two minor makes a nice modulator. It's nice to know how Liszt was taught.
Mike
</font>


ha - ya I'm sure the real Liszt knew just a tad more tricks too. As for the dork behind the name here - well - he's just lucky to know a C from a D chord....


Boo...my name is Doug
#391302 - 07/08/06 04:03 PM Re: modulations  
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Jerry Jakala Offline
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I modulate every 28 days and stop the midol when I get in a good mood.


Jerry


------------------
Jerry Jakala


http://www.jerryjakala.com
http://cdbaby.com/cd/jakalajerry2

The difference between genius and stupidity is that there is a limit on genius.-Albert Einstein
#391303 - 07/08/06 04:13 PM Re: modulations  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Joined: Apr 2001
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Nashville Tennessee
Funny Jerry,

That's how often I play my Pre Modulation Solo.

It's a dated sounding piece, some would call it a period piece.

Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#391304 - 07/08/06 08:20 PM Re: modulations  
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EmmitSycamore Offline
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Isn't there a version of "Sixteen tons" that modulates down. What a way to show off a deep bass voice!

#391305 - 07/11/06 05:38 PM Re: modulations  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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try the good old 2mi7 to dom7 into the tonic of the new key..allows you to do almost any modulation you desire

bob

#391306 - 07/12/06 05:48 AM Re: modulations  
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Doug/Liszt Laughing Offline
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ooh ooh - raises hand - I have another one also. During the modulation period, simply play notes common to both keys before doing the V (if you do the V). I actually just did a piece that modulates from C to F# (Liszt's divine key - for anybody keeping score). That was wild. What, they have B in common and that is about it. I used kind of a chromatic run in it too with 'important' notes..like C# C G# G B A# A.


Boo...my name is Doug
#391307 - 07/12/06 01:15 PM Re: modulations  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Good ideas.

I also like using the melody note as the point of departure. In the Doobie Brothers' "What a Fool Believes," the modulation takes place on the word "be-lieves" they are sung as an octave. The first note "be..." is the one of the old key, the second note "lieves..." is the six of the new key, making the new key the (fill in the blank) of the old key?

Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#391308 - 07/16/06 03:55 AM Re: modulations  
Joined: Jul 2003
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Don Bellew Offline
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Don Bellew  Offline
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Ellicott City, Maryland USA
Mike,
Doesn't "I Walk the Line" modulate several times in a weird way? You know country way better than I do. I always remembered the song but I didn't recall the key change. I heard it the other day on an oldies station...Somebody hums the first note of each key change...The funniest thing I ever heard. Was that Johnny? Or somebody prompting him with the first note of the new key? It's a riot!! I never remembered that.

#391309 - 09/20/06 03:51 AM Re: modulations  
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Two Singers Offline
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Mike,

Here's a slightly uncommon key modulation that I used in one song...key of G modulating to key of A (2/4 or 4/4 time):

G-C-F-Bb-A7-D-D-Eb-E7-A

2 beats on G-C-F-Bb-A7-D and then 1 beat on D-Eb and 4 beats on E7, then start to progression in the new key of A. That is a very simplistic description. Does it make sense? When I was a young teenager in the early '60s, my local guitar hero, Charlie Tucker, said "I don't splain 'em...I just pick 'em"! And that often describes me...I can't always explain what I did in the jargon of music theory, but can damn sure play it...most of the time!

Alan

Nice thread. A key modulation always brings new energy to a song.

------------------
If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

[This message has been edited by sideman66 (edited 09-20-2006).]

#391310 - 09/21/06 02:25 PM Re: modulations  
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Softkrome Offline
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Hi! Anyone out there ever end their song using the flatted sixth before returning to the key chord. For example in C go to A flat then back to C at the end. Another device commonly used in jazz is to end with the flatted fourth minor then back to the Key chord. Say in F use b flat minor then back to F at the end. Frank V.


Softkrome
#391311 - 09/21/06 07:14 PM Re: modulations  
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Herbie Gaines Offline
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Herbie Gaines  Offline
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Walk the line goes
1 F
2 Bb
3 Eb
4 Bb
5 F

and yes that's Johnny finding the key by humming. And try as I might, I can't quite sing that low C at the end.

Herbie


Herbie
JPF Chicago Chapter Coordinator
http://www.herbietunes.com

#391312 - 09/22/06 12:43 PM Re: modulations  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Cool Stuff,

Alan, going G to A with:
G-C-F-Bb-A7-D-D-Eb-E7-A
Is like going 1 to 4 to b7 to b3, moving down to 27 to 5, 5 again, b6, 67(now becoming a new five) to the new one, A.

You could go as far as to say it was the Key of G going to C to F to the six of F, D up to the key of Ab to the key of A.

But basically, after playing it, it sounds good!

Frank, Notice that Alan has a flat six in his progression [Linked Image] The old song "Bye Bye Blues" puts in the flat six before the final one as you write, the four minor is used a lot, in modern country Wynonna's "No One Else On Earth" uses the "feel" of a four minor (it's actually the four minor of the four LOL) five measures from the final chorus of the basic movement. Funny, the six flat is very similar to the four minor, in C, the four is made minor by putting an Ab in the F chord. The six flat in C (Ab C Eb) is the final three notes of the F minor seventh. In traditional theory, the flatted six dominant seven chord is known as the German six. More than you wanted to know eh? All this trivia I've learned and five bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Herbie, Cash was the MAN. He was the most amazing combination of competance, limitation, strength, fragility, and basic humanity that I can think of. Similar to Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, and Louis Armstrong he was a combination of genius and the common man. At a time when the most "uptown" and sophisticated of the pop/jazz singers would have never dared release such modulations to the radio, Cash not only released them, but, as you said, hummed the key before singing. He dared to be humble.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#391313 - 09/24/06 03:17 PM Re: modulations  
Joined: Nov 2001
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Softkrome Offline
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Softkrome  Offline
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Mike, You hit it right on. The Ab chord is the top portion of the Fm7 and thats probably why it fits well with the Key chord C although when you play it it gives a distinctly different effect to the music than when you use the Fm7. I would have never recognized it if you hadn't mentioned it though. Mike, you are the man when it comes to music theory. Thanks Frank V.


Softkrome
#391314 - 09/24/06 03:34 PM Re: modulations  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Thank you, Frank, not the Man, just an old picker.

Another reason why the flat six has a special sound is because it's a sharp five. It sort of "suspends" (not to be confused with a suspension) the listener, waiting for it to drop to the five, much in the way you hear it in melodic/harmonic minor melodies...the spanish/arabian influence.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#1010633 - 06/02/13 10:00 PM Re: modulations [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Offline
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Another great post by Mike!


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