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#1000732 - 03/22/13 01:58 PM Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help?  
Joined: Dec 2005
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Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Cornish Flat, NH, USA

Should we add a Guideline help on the mp3 Forum ? .... To help encourage more interaction............. I think it would be helpful for New people ???

How do folks feel about this ??


Please ADD to this list if you have more thoughts....


Critique - Guidelines for helping others

Please share if you are a Pro -doing music for a living, long time writer, or newbe

Rate if possible scale:: 1 -- 5 ::: Five being strongest :::

If Listening did the song have an impact and what was it ?

comment:

How's the hook ? - does it grab you ?

comment:

Are there original Merits to the writing?

comment:

Does the lyric stay on target and match the music?

comment:

Does it have Listening Again appeal?

comment:

Musically and Instrumentally, how does the piece stand up to listener's enjoyment ?

comment:

Recording wise, How does this measure in regards to mix?

comment:

Performance - if applicable, How does the artist measure in regards to song and delivery?

comment:


Any other Thoughts ?

Last edited by Joice Marie; 03/22/13 09:23 PM.
#1000753 - 03/22/13 05:00 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
Joined: Nov 2006
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

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Joined: Nov 2006
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Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Whilst this list does have some merits it MAY make people approach critiques from a paint by numbers perspective. It is more important for newbies to establish the credentials of the person offering the critique than critiquers knowing the credentials of the person offering the song. Rating on a scale of 1-5 is NOT IMO of any value. It would be better to say that the song is ready to be pitched or needs work and an objective crit pointing out strengths and weaknesses accompanying rather than a mark. This is not a competition but a way to learn and improve. I follow the theory that any comment is valid but is far better when it is backed up by reasons and explanations. No point in saying a thing is good or bad without explaining why. Some people will only point out the positives.....I would rather point out the negs first. There is more of a need to improve on the negs than the positives. I also feel that far too much time is spent on critiquing lyrics and very little time spent on talking about the musication melody arrangement and production. which is more important skills in the modern music era. Obviously some critiques carry more influence than others depending on who they are from.

We have to ask Why.......the person has put a song up for critiques......and why a critique has been supplied.
That may provide a lot of answers to controversial questions....like how honest the critique is....and why has this song been posted.

#1000762 - 03/22/13 07:25 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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I agree completely with Jim. I'd like to second his point on the value of knowing why someone finds a song or part of a song to be good or bad. Examining why I like or dislike something helps me to learn to critique my own work. Finding out why someone likes or dislikes something I've done helps me decide whether their criticism is of value to me.

I'd also like to expand on why the person put up the song. I think it goes further than that. It would be good to know if the songwriter is a beginner, if they've never had a critique of their work before. It's easy to either hurt someone who has not developed thick skin yet, or to give a beginner a false sense of the quality of their work. Either can be harmful to a novice songwriter, sometimes irreparably. Honesty withheld and honesty used as a weapon are both potentialy damaging, so the critic should also develop guidelines with this in mind.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#1000763 - 03/22/13 07:51 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: May 2006
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Colin Ward Offline
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As Jim says, I think there are merits and pitfalls to this approach. If a critique form is provided, the questions have to be carefully designed to provide useful information to the writer because the use of a form may inhibit further comments directed at the specifics of the song. I am inclined to say that a different form would be needed for lyrics only versus a completed song. On the plus side, a critique form might speed up the process so that more critiques could be provided by a reviewer in a given amount of time and it might also trigger thoughts that would otherwise be overlooked.

I know that other songwriting forums have forms or guidelines but I can't say that I have ever seen anyone use one. Maybe we should ask them.

If we move forward with this idea, I would be willing to work on the questions.

Colin


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1000771 - 03/22/13 09:01 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: Nov 2011
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E Swartz Offline
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E Swartz  Offline
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Posts: 3,552
Ohio
I think an "optional" available form would be a great tool for critiquing for a couple of reasons.

1) When your critique becomes a short essay you tend to say "enough said" and probably skirted a few major points that were perhaps equally important in helping someone, whereas 5 or 6 check marks could have quickly made your points.

2) It allows efficiency of one's time and gives the person giving the critique a better way to be constructive, as comments can and will always be perceived not always accurately--some are also better at verbal expression.

I think it should be very basic check boxes. Then you can have the comment area (personal commenting is always important) as we do now to expound upon your assessment or to discuss other issues better addressed by commenting.

I think this system would be beneficial for both the critiquor or critiquee, especially the latter as he or she can look more objectively at their critique.

steady-eddie.

#1000776 - 03/22/13 09:10 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,186
Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Cornish Flat, NH, USA
Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Whilst this list does have some merits it MAY make people approach critiques from a paint by numbers perspective. It is more important for newbies to establish the credentials of the person offering the critique than critiquers knowing the credentials of the person offering the song. Rating on a scale of 1-5 is NOT IMO of any value. It would be better to say that the song is ready to be pitched or needs work and an objective crit pointing out strengths and weaknesses accompanying rather than a mark. This is not a competition but a way to learn and improve. I follow the theory that any comment is valid but is far better when it is backed up by reasons and explanations. No point in saying a thing is good or bad without explaining why. Some people will only point out the positives.....I would rather point out the negs first. There is more of a need to improve on the negs than the positives. I also feel that far too much time is spent on critiquing lyrics and very little time spent on talking about the musication melody arrangement and production. which is more important skills in the modern music era. Obviously some critiques carry more influence than others depending on who they are from.

We have to ask Why.......the person has put a song up for critiques......and why a critique has been supplied.
That may provide a lot of answers to controversial questions....like how honest the critique is....and why has this song been posted.


Hi Jim

First I'd like to say Thanks for your thoughtful feedback !
And like Mike -- I agree with everything that you say here --- to a point

The 'rating' part is Not intended to be a Contest at all ---- this is Why - I believe it is important to Also have the poster qualify where they are in songwriting Pro etc...

The rating is Strictly intended as a POV

EVERY person who takes the time to Listen IS a valuable feedback potential -- even if they just like it because they don't know why......

Also --- this is WHY --- each thought has Comment: after it so the poster can say WHY....

I'm not saying my Formula/Form here is perfect --- just a starting point.

jm

Oh --- and I Did intend this to be an MP3 --- forum piece
Not the lyric Boards --- because -- lyrics are only a Part of a song


Last edited by Joice Marie; 03/22/13 09:13 PM.

perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000778 - 03/22/13 09:15 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,186
Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,186
Cornish Flat, NH, USA
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
I agree completely with Jim. I'd like to second his point on the value of knowing why someone finds a song or part of a song to be good or bad. Examining why I like or dislike something helps me to learn to critique my own work. Finding out why someone likes or dislikes something I've done helps me decide whether their criticism is of value to me.

I'd also like to expand on why the person put up the song. I think it goes further than that. It would be good to know if the songwriter is a beginner, if they've never had a critique of their work before. It's easy to either hurt someone who has not developed thick skin yet, or to give a beginner a false sense of the quality of their work. Either can be harmful to a novice songwriter, sometimes irreparably. Honesty withheld and honesty used as a weapon are both potentialy damaging, so the critic should also develop guidelines with this in mind.



Hi Mike

Again --- I Really appreciate your Thoughts ---- and I think you and Jim are also correct --- the form/ above is a rough draft for the idea : )


jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000780 - 03/22/13 09:19 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: Dec 2005
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Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,186
Cornish Flat, NH, USA
Originally Posted by Colin Ward
As Jim says, I think there are merits and pitfalls to this approach. If a critique form is provided, the questions have to be carefully designed to provide useful information to the writer because the use of a form may inhibit further comments directed at the specifics of the song. I am inclined to say that a different form would be needed for lyrics only versus a completed song. On the plus side, a critique form might speed up the process so that more critiques could be provided by a reviewer in a given amount of time and it might also trigger thoughts that would otherwise be overlooked.

I know that other songwriting forums have forms or guidelines but I can't say that I have ever seen anyone use one. Maybe we should ask them.

If we move forward with this idea, I would be willing to work on the questions.

Colin


Hi Colin

I have tried to look at guidelines on how to Critique and I Believe a Form helps -- a person can Choose to use some of it or none of it and just comment....

PLEASE feel Free to Post a Revised Format here if you work on this
and a BIG THANK YOU in advance if you do !!

jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000782 - 03/22/13 09:21 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Originally Posted by E Swartz
I think an "optional" available form would be a great tool for critiquing for a couple of reasons.

1) When your critique becomes a short essay you tend to say "enough said" and probably skirted a few major points that were perhaps equally important in helping someone, whereas 5 or 6 check marks could have quickly made your points.

2) It allows efficiency of one's time and gives the person giving the critique a better way to be constructive, as comments can and will always be perceived not always accurately--some are also better at verbal expression.

I think it should be very basic check boxes. Then you can have the comment area (personal commenting is always important) as we do now to expound upon your assessment or to discuss other issues better addressed by commenting.

I think this system would be beneficial for both the critiquor or critiquee, especially the latter as he or she can look more objectively at their critique.

steady-eddie.


Hi Eddie

I agree with you also -- a section of check boxes Could work -- But I would HOPE for comments too : )

Thank you
jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000783 - 03/22/13 09:56 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
Joined: Feb 2007
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Kevin Emmrich Offline
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Crozet, VA
What might be even better would be to have the author fill out the questionnaire:

1.) What is the basic idea you are trying to tell us?
2.) What basic song form did you use (AABA, VCVCBC, ...)
3.) What rhyme scheme did you use in the verses (abab, aabb, xaca, aaaa, ...)
4.) what rhyme scheme did you use in the chorus? ... in the bridge (if you have one)?
5.) Do your verses lead, logically, to your summary idea in your chorus (or refrain)?
6.) What point of view are you using (1st person narrative, 2nd person, 3rd person? ...)
7.) Are you using your senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) in your writings to make the words come alive?
8.) Are you answering the questions Who, What, When Why and When?
.... anything else?


"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @50/90 2019)
#1000786 - 03/22/13 10:38 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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E Swartz Offline
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E Swartz  Offline
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Ohio
Joyce,

Definitely the comments will still be the major communication element Joyce. I think the check boxes could be utilized for "basic elementary" songwriting assessment. With more advanced writers it becomes more polishing although all of us can stumble with basics--ask any advanced golfer.

steady-eddie.

Last edited by E Swartz; 03/23/13 12:34 AM.
#1000788 - 03/22/13 11:00 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Cornish Flat, NH, USA
Originally Posted by Kevin Emmrich
What might be even better would be to have the author fill out the questionnaire:

1.) What is the basic idea you are trying to tell us?
2.) What basic song form did you use (AABA, VCVCBC, ...)
3.) What rhyme scheme did you use in the verses (abab, aabb, xaca, aaaa, ...)
4.) what rhyme scheme did you use in the chorus? ... in the bridge (if you have one)?
5.) Do your verses lead, logically, to your summary idea in your chorus (or refrain)?
6.) What point of view are you using (1st person narrative, 2nd person, 3rd person? ...)
7.) Are you using your senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) in your writings to make the words come alive?
8.) Are you answering the questions Who, What, When Why and When?
.... anything else?


Perhaps we could offer Both ?

I tend to think though, most writers cannot entirely be objective and KNOW the answers to this with their own songs --- plus they may be STRONG in one area and NOT so strong in others... That's why they might post --- and IF you lead the audience -- you might Not get much of a Gut response ?

Dunno - But I do Know my Preference would be to let the listener LISTEN without my input in advance.

Thanks for your thoughts Kevin.

jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000789 - 03/22/13 11:03 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,186
Cornish Flat, NH, USA
Originally Posted by E Swartz
Joyce,

Definitely the comments will still be the major communication element Joyce. I think the check boxes could be utilized for "basic elementary" grading or however the design may be. With more advanced writers it becomes more polishing although all of us can stumble with basics--ask any advanced golfer.

steady-eddie.


That word GRADING could be misleading -- Point of View or Opinion might be better


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000791 - 03/23/13 12:16 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
Joined: Jul 2010
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Dan Sullivan Offline
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Dan Sullivan  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2010
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MI
There's many ways to critique a song, here’s another.

1. Is the title memorable or does it draw you in?

2. Does the first 20 seconds make you want to hear more?

3. Is the story or subject of the song interesting? Or does it describe events which, while of obvious interest to the author, are of little or no interest to you?

4. How many memorable lines or hooks are in the song?

5. Is the melody pleasing to the ear or does it seem a good fit for the lyrics?

Bonus. Would you like to hear this song over and over again?

Rank each of the first 5 questions on a 1-4 scale corresponding to the D-C-B-A scoring system, with the A being 4. Add an additional 15 points if the song meets the bonus description. Songs earning 10 points are average. Over 15 are good. 20 and above are very good songs.

Here’s how I’d critique PANCHO AND LEFTY

1. Is the title memorable or does it draw you in?
Great title. I wanna know who Pancho is and who Lefty is. 4 Points.

2. Does the first 20 seconds make you want to hear more?
The chugging rhythm and “Living on the road, my friend, was gonna keep you free and clean,” is a great way to start a story song. 4 Points.

3. Is the story or subject of the song interesting? Or does it describe events which, while of obvious interest to the author, are of little or no interest to you?
A mythical tale of an outlaw and the lawman who took him down. 4 Points.

4. How many memorable lines or hooks are in the song?
Almost every line is a great one. 4 Points.

5. Is the melody pleasing to the ear or does it seem a good fit for the lyrics?
A very memorable melody. 4 Points.

6. Would you like to hear this song over and over again?
Yes. 15 Point bonus.

Total: PANCHO AND LEFTY gets the maximum total - 35 points, making it a great song in my book.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
#1000792 - 03/23/13 12:54 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Joyce,

I changed the word "grading" Joyce--you're right, that's not the best word to be used. Like Jim above alluded, it isn't competition, it's a source for advice & help to improve one's songwriting; whether pitching or just for their own desire to improve.

I think you can get the form "too" complex and defeat the purpose of having a cooperative effort--keep it fairly simple. We could come up with 50 reasonable questions--I'd say no more than 10. Remember we still will have ample "comment" exchange. In this manner a songwriter can focus on priority adjustments, then tweaks, then polishing. Production and arrangements could be a whole other avenue for learning.

I say keep the basic critique form short to not overwhelm the songwriters and make the process fun; some will be more serious than others anyway. Some won't like the idea at all--they can always state in their posts what they want or don't want with a short menu list provided.

steady-eddie.

#1000809 - 03/23/13 07:52 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I've come to the conclusion that in a perfect world of critiques, along with the Mp3, in the initial post the author would include a brief paragraph or two about the song.

* What they were trying get across in the story and in the different musical parts.
* Instead of a chorus I used a crying guitar solo to allow the listener time reflect on the story.
* In my rhyming scheme the last word of the sections don't rhyme with other words, to add to the uncomfortable vibe of the story.

The point being, the critique should be about whether the author achieve what they were aiming for and not about whether the person doing the critique agrees with or would ever write a song with an off beat rhyming schemes or write a song without a chorus or tell a story with so little or so much detail.

In those couple of paragraphs the author can ask for specific assistance or draw our attention to a particular section of the song, if they like. I think this would help the person doing the critique to be more focused and helpful. While helping the author as they explore their unique creativity.

The onus should be on me to let those, taking the time to critique my work, know what I was trying to do so they can effectively let me know if I was successful or how I might move closer to achieving my goal.

That being said and this not being my perfect little world, I think you could use 1 form with three sections.
1 Lyrics
2 Music
3 Production

Each section has a few subsections / questions, which are graded 1-5, with a space for comments.

Any more detailed questions, the author has, can be ask in the 2 paragraphs, accompanying the MP3.

The list of possible questions are endless so I say for starters come up with a few per section and see how it goes.







#1000813 - 03/23/13 09:41 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Nelson]  
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Maybe the poster of a song or lyric should fill out a simple form too.....it could answer a lot of questions about his/her intentions. It could also provide perspective so the reviewer focused on the issues of concern to the poster. Frequently, people post a lyric with no description at all. I am inclined to move on when I see that.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#1000817 - 03/23/13 10:46 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Originally Posted by Dan Sullivan
There's many ways to critique a song, here’s another.

1. Is the title memorable or does it draw you in?

2. Does the first 20 seconds make you want to hear more?

3. Is the story or subject of the song interesting? Or does it describe events which, while of obvious interest to the author, are of little or no interest to you?

4. How many memorable lines or hooks are in the song?

5. Is the melody pleasing to the ear or does it seem a good fit for the lyrics?

Bonus. Would you like to hear this song over and over again?

Rank each of the first 5 questions on a 1-4 scale corresponding to the D-C-B-A scoring system, with the A being 4. Add an additional 15 points if the song meets the bonus description. Songs earning 10 points are average. Over 15 are good. 20 and above are very good songs.

Here’s how I’d critique PANCHO AND LEFTY

1. Is the title memorable or does it draw you in?
Great title. I wanna know who Pancho is and who Lefty is. 4 Points.

2. Does the first 20 seconds make you want to hear more?
The chugging rhythm and “Living on the road, my friend, was gonna keep you free and clean,” is a great way to start a story song. 4 Points.

3. Is the story or subject of the song interesting? Or does it describe events which, while of obvious interest to the author, are of little or no interest to you?
A mythical tale of an outlaw and the lawman who took him down. 4 Points.

4. How many memorable lines or hooks are in the song?
Almost every line is a great one. 4 Points.

5. Is the melody pleasing to the ear or does it seem a good fit for the lyrics?
A very memorable melody. 4 Points.

6. Would you like to hear this song over and over again?
Yes. 15 Point bonus.

Total: PANCHO AND LEFTY gets the maximum total - 35 points, making it a great song in my book.


Hi Dan

Thank You for the in Depth format and Example -- and you are also correct that there are Many ways and question we could ask...


Here's Another thought, Though......

A SIMPLE -- yes/no rating : 1, 2,3 etc... choice A,B , C etc... can Easily be set up in this current System JPF HAS.....

IF a poster is responsible for making his/her own form each time.... song specific --- they may not Bother ??

The form Idea --- should have a Broad Usage

and then Allow the poster for critique or Posting their own comments.

jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000819 - 03/23/13 10:48 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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Originally Posted by E Swartz
Joyce,

I changed the word "grading" Joyce--you're right, that's not the best word to be used. Like Jim above alluded, it isn't competition, it's a source for advice & help to improve one's songwriting; whether pitching or just for their own desire to improve.

I think you can get the form "too" complex and defeat the purpose of having a cooperative effort--keep it fairly simple. We could come up with 50 reasonable questions--I'd say no more than 10. Remember we still will have ample "comment" exchange. In this manner a songwriter can focus on priority adjustments, then tweaks, then polishing. Production and arrangements could be a whole other avenue for learning.

I say keep the basic critique form short to not overwhelm the songwriters and make the process fun; some will be more serious than others anyway. Some won't like the idea at all--they can always state in their posts what they want or don't want with a short menu list provided.

steady-eddie.



I THiNK you hit IT --- in that we Probably SHOULD --- keep it Fairly simple
We are on the same page -- I think


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000820 - 03/23/13 10:57 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Nelson]  
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Originally Posted by Nelson
I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I've come to the conclusion that in a perfect world of critiques, along with the Mp3, in the initial post the author would include a brief paragraph or two about the song.

* What they were trying get across in the story and in the different musical parts.
* Instead of a chorus I used a crying guitar solo to allow the listener time reflect on the story.
* In my rhyming scheme the last word of the sections don't rhyme with other words, to add to the uncomfortable vibe of the story.

The point being, the critique should be about whether the author achieve what they were aiming for and not about whether the person doing the critique agrees with or would ever write a song with an off beat rhyming schemes or write a song without a chorus or tell a story with so little or so much detail.

In those couple of paragraphs the author can ask for specific assistance or draw our attention to a particular section of the song, if they like. I think this would help the person doing the critique to be more focused and helpful. While helping the author as they explore their unique creativity.

The onus should be on me to let those, taking the time to critique my work, know what I was trying to do so they can effectively let me know if I was successful or how I might move closer to achieving my goal.

That being said and this not being my perfect little world, I think you could use 1 form with three sections.
1 Lyrics
2 Music
3 Production

Each section has a few subsections / questions, which are graded 1-5, with a space for comments.

Any more detailed questions, the author has, can be ask in the 2 paragraphs, accompanying the MP3.

The list of possible questions are endless so I say for starters come up with a few per section and see how it goes.



Greetings Mr. Nelson -- I hope you Are well !!


Thank You for your Excellent thoughts....... and I think in response --- THE OTHER POINT we have Yet to Bring up --- You allude to here -- IS THAT -- not Everyone is Planning on Pitching a song for someone else to sing or CUT --- These Are 2 Very different categories....

So some of the specifics of - "The Rules" for writing for a Hit or industry -- may get thrown out the window -- for Creative Choice........

Somehow the poster of an mp3 may Have to Qualify in their own terms --- that the FORM we have as a Guide does not apply , perhaps ? in those cases ----

In ANY event --- If the Chosen format -- does not get used it could further be modified....

IF judging by the comments so Far here --- I would say --- that a Form -- just might be helpful...

jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000821 - 03/23/13 11:03 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Originally Posted by Colin Ward
Maybe the poster of a song or lyric should fill out a simple form too.....it could answer a lot of questions about his/her intentions. It could also provide perspective so the reviewer focused on the issues of concern to the poster. Frequently, people post a lyric with no description at all. I am inclined to move on when I see that.


Actually Colin

The more we discuss this -- the More that I agree.....
Now I am wondering If the "poll manager" feature could be used in this case --- that in order to Post --- the boxes need to be checked ??????

Do you know?

jm



perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000824 - 03/23/13 11:41 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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Joyce there have been so many good ideas from everyone above and thank-you for being the emcee and moderator of this subject.

Just a thought before presenting anything. Maybe starting with "elementary basics" for prioritizing makes sense by looking at all above ideas. Like a song, the whole process may need tweaking once implemented. You can always easily add to an idea or a system in place later after you have a better perspective of what's needed.

I do like the idea of having a brief menu for music or lyric posters to check for what manner of critiquing they are looking for. In that way, someone that may have a song to share that's "in the can" can just get some general opinions and share for fun, as that their project is done and really don't need or want their song dissected so to speak. I also think it's fine keeping those folks in the same forum, as it keeps traffic and interest there--someone alluded in another discussion that "people tend to go where the crowds are--we're social creatures."

Thanks everyone, I think that a system like this will actually be a huge benefit for better and more "honest" comprehensive critiquing.

steady-eddie.

#1000837 - 03/23/13 12:57 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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I think we need to get back to basics and not over complicate things. The more polls and rankings and forms to fill in and the more info required to be given in posts the more I think it might put people off rather than attract.
Whilst a simple FAQ and guidance page will be helpful we need to keep it brief and simple....and allow freedom to both post songs and also critique.

Now the way I see it we have three types of posters on the MP3 board

1. People who have a song at a certain stage and want help or feedback as a learning tool.
2. People who are just posting a song for fun and enjoyment they are not really looking for an in depth critique.
3. Serious songwriters who are looking for an in depth analysis with perhaps a few suggestions on how to tweak or fine tune their almost finished song.

We do a pretty good job already in catering for their varied needs. We have people of all ages experience and abilities from a wide range of styles and genres all mucking in to provide valuable feedback and pass on knowledge and advice.

After reading the guidelines I am sure that both posters and critiquers can then understand what is required in certain circumstances and make sure they give the information needed to make sure everyone achieves what they want both from giving and receiving feedback.

Perhaps an FAQ page and a few samples of some good posts as examples will get the message over about what info to put when posting a song or giving a critique.

Rules and forms to fill IMO can be a hindrance rather than a help.

#1000862 - 03/23/13 03:45 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Jim,

You are conveying pretty much what I was envisioning for keeping it simple--it doesn't have to look like a long form per say. But six or seven check boxes are all I think is needed along with a comment area. I'm not sure I know what you meant about "rules." Like the teachers used to say KISS approach = "keep it simple stupid." The only reason the subject is being tossed out I feel is that as the critique forums are now, are becoming a bit more social forums perhaps more than for what their designed intent. But the social aspect is not a bad thing and a natural evolution--I've made some new friends myself. Having a "small amount" of structure can better serve those looking for more thorough or serious critiques, and promote a bit more objectivity than subjectivity, by having a menu option, while others may continue using the forum as is now. Hopefully, it will also attract more folks to JPF, and keep newer members more active as well.

steady-eddie.

#1000868 - 03/23/13 04:51 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
I think we need to get back to basics and not over complicate things. The more polls and rankings and forms to fill in and the more info required to be given in posts the more I think it might put people off rather than attract.
Whilst a simple FAQ and guidance page will be helpful we need to keep it brief and simple....and allow freedom to both post songs and also critique.

Now the way I see it we have three types of posters on the MP3 board

1. People who have a song at a certain stage and want help or feedback as a learning tool.
2. People who are just posting a song for fun and enjoyment they are not really looking for an in depth critique.
3. Serious songwriters who are looking for an in depth analysis with perhaps a few suggestions on how to tweak or fine tune their almost finished song.

We do a pretty good job already in catering for their varied needs. We have people of all ages experience and abilities from a wide range of styles and genres all mucking in to provide valuable feedback and pass on knowledge and advice.

After reading the guidelines I am sure that both posters and critiquers can then understand what is required in certain circumstances and make sure they give the information needed to make sure everyone achieves what they want both from giving and receiving feedback.

Perhaps an FAQ page and a few samples of some good posts as examples will get the message over about what info to put when posting a song or giving a critique.

Rules and forms to fill IMO can be a hindrance rather than a help.


Hi Again Jim

I think your 3 categories listed -- DO accurately sum up who is here posting
I also Can appreciate the Thoughts of Why Change it NOW it has Been working for so long ? (if it's Not Broke , don't fix it...)

HOWEVER --- it is NOT really growing and My personal intent was to STIMULATE conversations as to HOW we can Help it back to a GROWING state -- Traffic has diminished -- this is a fact from the numbers

without spending, money and an enormous amount of People hours

This was One way -- of Brainstorming --- as was the Poll --- I cannot imagine posting these kinds of discussions drives anyone Away --- they just May not participate in the poll or method of General Critique suggestions decided upon.

I agree a Basic FAQ and Menu Item may be a good start


Not many people Like Change at all --- I'm even in that group --- however IF we do not Grow the population of sustaining posters and contributors --- IF there's only a handful of people helping Brian -- it may not be enough.

jm




perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1000947 - 03/24/13 01:36 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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this has been brought up before and IMO the "trouble" with following a "list" of questions/guidelines is that for myself the critics are "subjective" and even when following a "list" they are still from my personal point of view.

With a few simple observations I have, in the past, changed some of my lyrics completly, sometimes a personal point of view, when mentioned, is all the writer needs.

Should we use "guidelines"? Sure it wouldn't hurt BUT lets face the facts. No one really knows what makes a "song" a complete song or simple demo good/great. If we did well then we would all be penning them wouldn't we?

Just me thoughts.

douglas


"Is this a practice? They are all practices." John Denver

www.soundclick.com/dougmurphy

Skype Contact: douglas.murphy8
#1000988 - 03/24/13 07:31 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Douglas Murphy]  
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Doug, I agree with you. No one is saying their critique is 100% accurate or that "their" opinion is the only way--there are always options for music and lyrics or arrangements. I certainly don't always agree with all suggestions that I've received for my songwriting works, but many I do.

The purpose for the "short" list or check-box menu is more for stating basic opinions with out having to "write a paragraph" to make those elementary points--as well as keeping it a bit more objective in "nature," although of course it is subjective in reality. It is about saving a little time as well as organization. I think a good critic should always give reasoning for his or her opinions if discussing or recommending changes in the comment area. Many folks don't give "well thought out" critiques because it takes "time" for evaluation and they may not want to take the time for whatever reason--this could save some time and perhaps stimulate more and better critiques.

I also truly appreciate what you are saying, as there is some merit in what you are saying.

steady-eddie.

#1000992 - 03/24/13 08:41 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Douglas Murphy]  
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Originally Posted by Douglas Murphy
this has been brought up before and IMO the "trouble" with following a "list" of questions/guidelines is that for myself the critics are "subjective" and even when following a "list" they are still from my personal point of view.

With a few simple observations I have, in the past, changed some of my lyrics completly, sometimes a personal point of view, when mentioned, is all the writer needs.

Should we use "guidelines"? Sure it wouldn't hurt BUT lets face the facts. No one really knows what makes a "song" a complete song or simple demo good/great. If we did well then we would all be penning them wouldn't we?

Just me thoughts.

douglas


Hi Doug

Yes -- I imagine it Has been brought up --- if You can find a Thread --- I'd love to link it.

NO ONE --- Certainly NOT ME - lol --- is TRYING to be THE EXPERT -- to tell people if it is a Good or Bad write/demo/recording -- it's always a Subjective Opinion relating about any Art...

Guidelines - Particularly can help people NEW to recording/writing/or a site like this

One of the comments I have heard and Felt --- when I started recording was ---- How can I comment on the Music ?-- when I am not really a Musician or I don't do mixing --- so I can't comment on the mix... etc...

SO ---as Just listeners ---did the song Sound Good To YOU ??
did you tap your feet or Cover your ears ???
Did you Like what you heard etc.....

I SAY -- a List of check boxes Can stimulate -- More response and give new writers, another way to learn.

just my opinion

jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001173 - 03/25/13 10:56 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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Hello Joice.

Actually I have posted a "list" of guidelines in the past here at JPF with the same idea in mind (A way to help out the critic and the writer). One came from "The Craft of Lyric Writing" and the other from an adaptation of the one Taxi uses.

I found, IMO, that even with the list(s) I found it difficult to critic my own and believe it has been mentioned that using it for others is a long process.

I am not against using lists/guidlines, think it is a great idea, BUT I still can see where the "personal" comes in. I would imagine that like myself you either like or do not like any particular lyric and if one catches your attention you might go into more detail in your critic but for the most part I like the attention one way or the other. smile

douglas


"Is this a practice? They are all practices." John Denver

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#1001215 - 03/26/13 02:36 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Douglas Murphy]  
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Hey Joice,

I don't do forms. I just write what I think needs to be said.

cheers, niteshift

#1001217 - 03/26/13 02:50 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: niteshift]  
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Guys, it's not complicated, it's not a long list that Joyce is proposing. It's not one way or the other. The comment area will still be the most important area, and you can still just write what you want in the comment area--you DON"T have to use the "short list of check boxes that will offer some "basic or fundamental assessments that could be valuable info for the songwriter." It will take you an insignificant amount of time to check those boxes--and then only if the songwriter asks for a full critique in the menu area. The system should save you time, give more feedback. ALSO, you may just critique as you prefer and have in the past.

steady-eddie.

#1001219 - 03/26/13 06:46 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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what a post! lot of things to think about. before I go further reading your post i will stuck to the second cause Big Jim said it perfectly : " any comment is valid but is far better when it is backed up by reasons and explanations. No point in saying a thing is good or bad without explaining why". I realized myself that critic is a hard work, time and mind consuming. But if you spend some more time trying to explain the "why" and "where" you like or not, dont mind the checklist or the skill of who's commenting, that comment will be useful!

#1001220 - 03/26/13 07:37 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: MaxG]  
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but also the checklist will be LOL. the important thing to me is that the check list should not suggest implicitly what is the right way to write music (or lyric or whatelse) and what is the wrong one, cause there's no approved formula. just to make sure a critic covers alla the aspects.

#1001226 - 03/26/13 09:55 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Douglas Murphy]  
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Originally Posted by Douglas Murphy
Hello Joice.

Actually I have posted a "list" of guidelines in the past here at JPF with the same idea in mind (A way to help out the critic and the writer). One came from "The Craft of Lyric Writing" and the other from an adaptation of the one Taxi uses.

I found, IMO, that even with the list(s) I found it difficult to critic my own and believe it has been mentioned that using it for others is a long process.

I am not against using lists/guidlines, think it is a great idea, BUT I still can see where the "personal" comes in. I would imagine that like myself you either like or do not like any particular lyric and if one catches your attention you might go into more detail in your critic but for the most part I like the attention one way or the other. smile

douglas


Hi Again Doug

Well --

1. We Should Not use any other site's or Book's exact - list without permission

2. We really Should Customize the list for here -- with SO MANY -- non Pros and Beginners --- which is exactly what we wish to Attract --- New writers Have questions and stimulate the Boards... they Also have out of the Box ideas

3. The Guidelines are Just that GUIDES - not laws -- so use or Not

4. Comment could be -- it's not my thing if people don't want to say I DONT LIKE THIS or it is BAD

If we start this --- Then Improve the Guidelines as we go and gain a sense of what folks use --- it could help New People and also Encourage the more skilled ones to give more --- an example of that might be

:::::someone says -- the music -- does not match the lyric
:::::the poster does not understand and asks for more information

whereas -- if the critic only talks about the things that are working the poster thinks the music is fine

Anyway Doug-- I'm glad you are More for the Guideline idea- Thanks for your comments


jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001227 - 03/26/13 09:58 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: niteshift]  
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Originally Posted by niteshift
Hey Joice,

I don't do forms. I just write what I think needs to be said.

cheers, niteshift


Then you will choose not --- and them perhaps see some merit in it later. Though it is not UP TO ME -- in any case
You offer thoughtful comments -- which is ALWAYS welcome.

Thanks for your thought
jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001229 - 03/26/13 10:00 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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Originally Posted by E Swartz
Guys, it's not complicated, it's not a long list that Joyce is proposing. It's not one way or the other. The comment area will still be the most important area, and you can still just write what you want in the comment area--you DON"T have to use the "short list of check boxes that will offer some "basic or fundamental assessments that could be valuable info for the songwriter." It will take you an insignificant amount of time to check those boxes--and then only if the songwriter asks for a full critique in the menu area. The system should save you time, give more feedback. ALSO, you may just critique as you prefer and have in the past.

steady-eddie.




ditto !


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001232 - 03/26/13 10:04 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: MaxG]  
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Originally Posted by MaxG
but also the checklist will be LOL. the important thing to me is that the check list should not suggest implicitly what is the right way to write music (or lyric or whatelse) and what is the wrong one, cause there's no approved formula. just to make sure a critic covers alla the aspects.


Hi Max

No One really -- is trying to Make a Check list of Right or Wrong --- it is Just Not SO


Definitions of guideline:

noun: a rule or principle that provides guidance to appropriate behavior
noun: a detailed plan or explanation to guide you in setting standards or determining a course of action


Thanks for your thoughts

jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001242 - 03/26/13 12:14 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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HERE's a Snapshot of the Suggested -- Guides given......

Would anyone like to Take This List --- Pare it Down to a couple of Formats// better to have at least 2 --- perhaps of possible questions...

and repost it for further discussion ??? thinking if we build it --- they will follow
: )


Originally Posted by Joice Marie
Definitions of guideline:

noun: a rule or principle that provides guidance to appropriate behavior
noun: a detailed plan or explanation to guide you in setting standards or determining a course of action


Critique - Guidelines for helping others

Please share if you are a Pro -doing music for a living, long time writer, or newbe

Rate if possible scale:: 1 -- 5 ::: Five being strongest :::
If Listening did the song have an impact and what was it ?
comment:

How's the hook ? - does it grab you ?
comment:

Are there original Merits to the writing?
comment:

Does the lyric stay on target and match the music?
comment:

Does it have Listening Again appeal?
comment:

Musically and Instrumentally, how does the piece stand up to listener's enjoyment ?
comment:

Recording wise, How does this measure in regards to mix?
comment:

Performance - if applicable, How does the artist measure in regards to song and delivery?
comment:

Any other Thoughts ?


1) When your critique becomes a short essay you tend to say "enough said" and probably skirted a few major points that were perhaps equally important in helping someone, whereas 5 or 6 check marks could have quickly made your points.

2) It allows efficiency of one's time and gives the person giving the critique a better way to be constructive, as comments can and will always be perceived not always accurately--some are also better at verbal expression.

I think it should be very basic check boxes. Then you can have the comment area (personal commenting is always important) as we do now to expound upon your assessment or to discuss other issues better addressed by commenting.

I think this system would be beneficial for both the critiqued or critique-e, especially the latter as he or she can look more objectively at their critique.


1.) What is the basic idea you are trying to tell us?
2.) What basic song form did you use (AABA, VCVCBC, ...)
3.) What rhyme scheme did you use in the verses (abab, aabb, xaca, aaaa, ...)
4.) what rhyme scheme did you use in the chorus? ... in the bridge (if you have one)?
5.) Do your verses lead, logically, to your summary idea in your chorus (or refrain)?
6.) What point of view are you using (1st person narrative, 2nd person, 3rd person? ...)
7.) Are you using your senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) in your writings to make the words come alive?
8.) Are you answering the questions Who, What, When Why and When?
.... anything else?



1. Is the title memorable or does it draw you in?

2. Does the first 20 seconds make you want to hear more?

3. Is the story or subject of the song interesting? Or does it describe events which, while of obvious interest to the author, are of little or no interest to you?

4. How many memorable lines or hooks are in the song?

5. Is the melody pleasing to the ear or does it seem a good fit for the lyrics?

Bonus. Would you like to hear this song over and over again?

Rank each of the first 5 questions on a 1-4 scale corresponding to the D-C-B-A scoring system, with the A being 4. Add an additional 15 points if the song meets the bonus description. Songs earning 10 points are average. Over 15 are good. 20 and above are very good songs.



* What they were trying get across in the story and in the different musical parts.
* Instead of a chorus I used a crying guitar solo to allow the listener time reflect on the story.
* In my rhyming scheme the last word of the sections don't rhyme with other words, to add to the uncomfortable vibe of the story.

That being said and this not being my perfect little world, I think you could use 1 form with three sections.
1 Lyrics
2 Music
3 Production


Now the way I see it we have three types of posters on the MP3 board

1. People who have a song at a certain stage and want help or feedback as a learning tool.
2. People who are just posting a song for fun and enjoyment they are not really looking for an in depth critique.
3. Serious songwriters who are looking for an in depth analysis with perhaps a few suggestions on how to tweak or fine tune their almost finished song.


1. We Should Not use any other site's or Book's exact - list without permission

2. We really Should Customize the list for here -- with SO MANY -- non Pros and Beginners --- which is exactly what we wish to Attract --- New writers Have questions and stimulate the Boards... they Also have out of the Box ideas

3. The Guidelines are Just that GUIDES - not laws -- so use or Not

4. Comment could be -- it's not my thing if people don't want to say I DONT LIKE THIS or it is BAD
wink


added 3/28

ON the Critique-r END -- We could have Radio Button that chooses

• See My Comments

if they don't want to use the 'Guide Form'


Level of Critique Desired

Go Easy - I'm New
This is a New Song - Be Gentle
Rewrite/Rework - Is it working Now?
I'm Not a Pro- But Be Honest
I AM a Pro - Give Me Your True Thoughts
I Want to Be a Pro/Am Pro Minded - Be Harsh
This is a Pro Demo - Is it good enough ?
This Is JUST FOR FUN - what do you think?

Last edited by Joice Marie; 03/28/13 11:02 AM.

perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001248 - 03/26/13 12:44 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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MaxG,

I agree with you, about what Big Jim says about "supporting" statements that you make. I try to do that as well especially when discussing "structure or production mix." But there are some fundamental "points or opinions" that don't necessarily need expanded explanation. Those that justify their remarks will generally always be taken more seriously as well--it is that way now. After all, a critique no matter who it comes from, is "still" opinion, not "gospel" -- most songwriters understand and appreciate that.

You are also correct in that if someone's comments don't impress or have merit for you, you probably will not give much credence to the critique, but even a small tweak amongst nonsense or ignorance from a novice could be a good thing. I've made sugs before only to have another critique following me refute what I had to say backed by a good reason--after a small "ego check," I realized that I also have just learned something important myself and improved as a songwriter--just another reason why I like critiquing--it helps me to improve whether being critiqued or giving critiques.


steady-eddie.


#1001345 - 03/26/13 09:39 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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I prefer a FAQ and a simple guideline as to what info is wanted re posting song or lyric or offering a critique. Most people here already know how to post their own songs and critique others. Newbies perhaps do not...... therefore they need to know the basics on how to.....this can be best handled with a guideline and FAQ section which they can read before posting a song or submitting a critique. I feel that most newbies and some regular contributors might be put off by a tick box critique and certainly by any kind of points scoring rating or a long list of what is expected.

To create new traffic to our boards we need new people posting.....that means telling friends and fellow songwriters about JPF and asking them to join in. Sadly over the past couple of years or so some of our fellow members have passed on, retired, or became ill or maybe just drifted away. We need to get more NEW people to take their place.

I do not think that tweaking or making big changes will make much difference. WE JUST NEED NEW BLOOD. The critiques and songs posted will take care of themselves.

#1001370 - 03/26/13 11:29 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Good point,

I came hear by being invited from a JPF member friend. All of us should ask ourselves what music friends we have, that aren't here--then let's invite them!

steady-eddie.

#1001399 - 03/27/13 10:16 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
I prefer a FAQ and a simple guideline as to what info is wanted re posting song or lyric or offering a critique. Most people here already know how to post their own songs and critique others. Newbies perhaps do not...... therefore they need to know the basics on how to.....this can be best handled with a guideline and FAQ section which they can read before posting a song or submitting a critique. I feel that most newbies and some regular contributors might be put off by a tick box critique and certainly by any kind of points scoring rating or a long list of what is expected.

To create new traffic to our boards we need new people posting.....that means telling friends and fellow songwriters about JPF and asking them to join in. Sadly over the past couple of years or so some of our fellow members have passed on, retired, or became ill or maybe just drifted away. We need to get more NEW people to take their place.

I do not think that tweaking or making big changes will make much difference. WE JUST NEED NEW BLOOD. The critiques and songs posted will take care of themselves.


Hi Jim

I also Agree that - we need new people and One way is to Invite them-- I also agree Updating the FAQ would be helpful.....

HOWEVER -- I DO NOT agree that Making Changes will chase anyone away that has been here -- they just won't do any thing different than they do now

I also don't believe that we KNOW that changes won't Help --- that's just your opinion which you are entitled to have --

Perhaps we could TRY a List On the Thread and See what Happens ?

Part of what I see on web sites that were created even 5 years ago -- start to look "OLD" if Nothing Ever changes when you visit -- I'm having that problem with my own web site --- because it was created in 2005 -- I do not have the funds to up grade and have a web master that needs to be paid -- I don't do it myself ---BUT the Look has an effect and it offers nothing new -- that's a problem

Here of course we Do have new posts --- but many things just sit without moving....LONG lists of Boards and chapters that have little Movement and new posts ---- this is NOT good.

But On this thread we are just really discussing One attempt at change to One Board......Gosh --- I say --- LET'S TRY

jm




perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001427 - 03/27/13 02:22 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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Joyce,

You make an age old valid point -- "if you're not growing, you're dying."

Being progressive isn't necessarily being radical, and change sometimes works and sometimes doesn't--if it doesn't work, you either make new changes or go back to what seemed to work. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

steady-eddie.

#1001432 - 03/27/13 02:36 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: E Swartz]  
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Hi Joyce I am in no way opposed to making changes for the better and agree that anything to improve things is worth trying. However I have strong feelings about a rating, scoring or points ranking system. I see that as off putting, detrimental and devisive especially to newbies. I am sure that most people can give an honest critique pointing out the positives and highlighting areas that need improvement without giving a rating or ticking a box. On the other hand I can see people getting upset and discouraged if they receive poor marks and find themselves below the class average......reminds me of being back at school all those years ago.
If some people want to give a critique by ticking boxes that is fine I would prefer a more personal touch where people spoke about the song in an informal and unscripted way.

#1001435 - 03/27/13 02:51 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Hey All,

Please watch the following video. Entitled " The Major Difference Between Professional And Amateur Writers by John Truby " Although it is primarily about script writing, it absolutely rings true in terms of songwriting, and that which JPF strives to achieve. ( Only 5 mns of your time )

http://youtu.be/3E7ZwyRY_1g

If you get it, formatting a standard critique should be easy.

cheers, niteshift


#1001436 - 03/27/13 02:54 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Jim,

Begging your pardon, since you were responding to Joyce, but the menu list that we were discussing earlier in the threads was to be designed for that area only to be used should the songwriter request a comprehensive critique. I actually think songwriters may be "put off" more by "personal remarks" than a few fundamental assessments anyhow--just my opinion. I suppose that would vary from individual to individual.

When a songwriter submits a song for constructive crits, he or she may choose the two options--one being the new, the other being just as we have it--if they choose what we have already, there will be NO check boxes anyhow. (THE NEW VERSION WILL JUST BE AN OPTION FOR SONGWRITERS TO CHOOSE OR NOT TO CHOOSE)

steady-eddie.

#1001458 - 03/27/13 05:38 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Hi Joyce I am in no way opposed to making changes for the better and agree that anything to improve things is worth trying. However I have strong feelings about a rating, scoring or points ranking system. I see that as off putting, detrimental and devisive especially to newbies. I am sure that most people can give an honest critique pointing out the positives and highlighting areas that need improvement without giving a rating or ticking a box. On the other hand I can see people getting upset and discouraged if they receive poor marks and find themselves below the class average......reminds me of being back at school all those years ago.
If some people want to give a critique by ticking boxes that is fine I would prefer a more personal touch where people spoke about the song in an informal and unscripted way.


Hi Jim

It's okay if you/we Disagree -- But we Do disagree on a couple of points -- and I tried to let you know where.
Thanks
jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001459 - 03/27/13 05:39 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: niteshift]  
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Originally Posted by niteshift
Hey All,

Please watch the following video. Entitled " The Major Difference Between Professional And Amateur Writers by John Truby " Although it is primarily about script writing, it absolutely rings true in terms of songwriting, and that which JPF strives to achieve. ( Only 5 mns of your time )

http://youtu.be/3E7ZwyRY_1g

If you get it, formatting a standard critique should be easy.

cheers, niteshift



Hi Nite

That's Excellent

I'd love to Strive for that level of expertise here to share.

Thanks
jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#1001496 - 03/27/13 11:54 PM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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Something that hasn't been considered are professionally recorded (studio) demo's. There are quite a few on the MP3 board. Sometimes they can make it too difficult to assess. It could be a great song, or it could be a polished turd. The song is often too dressed up to find the basic rawness that needs to be recognized hiding behind the (paid for) shiny music.

I'm personally not impressed by production and won't listen past the first few bars on some of them because, frankly, most studio demo's sound like an imitation of any song that you might hear on the radio today, and if someone already spent hundreds of dollars on the demo, they ain't gonna change it.

#1001509 - 03/28/13 12:55 AM Re: Critique-- Should we have a Guideline help? [Re: ben willis]  
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Good point Ben! I pretty much don't say anything bad about a demo that someone has spent a few hundred dollars on. However, maybe I should if I think they are really wasting their money.


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