Originally Posted by couchgrouch
FD, what you said about demos isn't true. Plenty of awful songwriters pay hundreds to have places like County Q demo their tunes in Nashville but pubs instantly know the difference in a good or bad song. It's a shame worktapes can't be pitched, but it's no skin off my rhymes. That's the biz now.

And you could pay Mike to demo your sports song and it would sound good while remaining an utter piece of mediocre crap. Part of me was shocked that after all your pontificating about music, you posted that thing. Wow, is it bad.

Another part of me wasn't shocked. I've encountered quite a few know-it-alls in my twenty years on these sites. Not a single one of them could write. You're just the latest in a really long line.

Mike does exactly what a pro producer does, make his clients' songs better. How good they end up being often depends on how good they were to begin with. But that's the same with every producer back to the guy who recorded Charlie Patton in a railroad shack.

Get off the internet. Learn to write and then SHOW us by example what your wisdom is worth. After that sports song, you're Rachel Maddow...ZERO credibility.

Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Yes, it's a great analogy. Because the person felt you and he or you and she were "tight". But then you come in and make me look bad in front of other people. Now, I dont trust you, when we are talking in private, and you go on about my work, maybe you were full of crap, because you said something different to the public" Or, you said i look fat in this dress when over at dinner to somebody's house, but you never said that to me in private. So now I know what you REALLY think.


So if a friend says something negative about a piece, I am gonna feel betrayed? This makes sense, coming from a person who chooses to remain anonymous and a stranger himself, but it feels like there is some projection going on, on your part.

For those of us who have friends here, I don't think that's true at all. You see friendships as alliances, but c'mon, alliances are alliances. Certainly there are faux friendships in place that are basically alliances, but that's not what I am talking about, and any friendships that are just alliances are not true friendships. Friendships involve trust. Trust takes time to build. And when a friendship has it, it can be strong, and no isolated negative comment is gonna do anything other than allow for the possibility for it to move and change. It certainly will not remain static.

Like I said, "stranger" and "friend" are opposite poles of the spectrum--"total stranger" on the far left and "good friend" on the far right--and most relationships fall in between, here at JPF. And it feels good, in most relationships, to move right.

It seems you are suggesting that to get the best critiques here we should avoid making friends cuz then they can't be trusted as much? That's funny..

I value real friendship and the trust that it brings, and my friends know that I am easily hurt, but they also know that I want honesty. The hurt can be worked through. Sins of omission and that stasis that brings is more tragic and often can't be overcome. Sometimes friendships find a nice ground and there they sit and don't move, and that's fine too. Life does have a way of throwing curves at them, though. The resilient friendships survive. And that resilience can be directly linked to how much they trust each other.


Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I dont think you give enough credit to people who post songs.


I think I'm just saying there's more natural potential for trust between actual friends than non-friends. I put credence into every comment, no matter who it's from, but rely more on consensus and other factors the more towards the "total stranger" end-of-the spectrum the relationship is. Those relationships toward the friend end of the spectrum are more naturally taken in and trusted. Maybe not for you, but you don't get to tell me what my personal experience is, or that I live in a fantasy world because I value trust and find more of it with friends than non-friends, that's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
If you stopped to realize ANYBODY can pay Mike to record their song, and in the end they are all about the same.


Well Daniel Lanois' productions do too, cuz they all have his stamp, and there's certain things he will do on just about every recording. I have been told by many folks, both friends and strangers, that I have quite a variety of styles that I can fit comfortably into. And really I need no validation to do anything but dismiss this comment of yours.

I am still growing as a producer and none of my clients are stuck either. There's growth in our work. It gets better. We learn from mistakes. You are being very presumptuous to tell me what my relationships with my clients are like, but I just find it rather amusing.

You are a stranger. How's that working out for you?

Actually you aren't a stranger. But when the only things we know about you are 1) he's a guy with an opinion about most everything and that 2)he came back to JPF after being kicked out over a dozen times..that knowledge taints your comments. You want to go on as if nothing happened, when something did. You choose to continue to wear a mask. You choose to not attempt to amend your slanted narrative. I hope that works out for you, but makes it hard for me and I imagine many others, to take anything you say with anything but a grain of salt, no matter how much truth might be in any isolated comment from you.

Mike



Originally Posted by couchgrouch
FD, what you said about demos isn't true. Plenty of awful songwriters pay hundreds to have places like County Q demo their tunes in Nashville but pubs instantly know the difference in a good or bad song. It's a shame worktapes can't be pitched, but it's no skin off my rhymes. That's the biz now.

And you could pay Mike to demo your sports song and it would sound good while remaining an utter piece of mediocre crap. Part of me was shocked that after all your pontificating about music, you posted that thing. Wow, is it bad.

Another part of me wasn't shocked. I've encountered quite a few know-it-alls in my twenty years on these sites. Not a single one of them could write. You're just the latest in a really long line.

Mike does exactly what a pro producer does, make his clients' songs better. How good they end up being often depends on how good they were to begin with. But that's the same with every producer back to the guy who recorded Charlie Patton in a railroad shack.

Get off the internet. Learn to write and then SHOW us by example what your wisdom is worth. After that sports song, you're Rachel Maddow...ZERO credibility.


You dont think anything
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
I think one mistake we are both making, FD, is speaking on behalf of everybody.

That's where the conflict comes from.

I will refrain from that from this moment on and just speak for myself, and seeing I have spoken at length, you know how I personally feel and have little else left to say.

You can continue to generalize about how everyone feels about "friends vs strangers in regards critiquing," if you want, but really these thoughts are just how you feel personally about the subject, whether you care to admit that or not, not really about how everyone feels about "strangers vs friends in regards critiquing" at all.

I imagine there's quite of variety of feelings on the subject, based on one's life experience. Your life experience leads you to your beliefs, I mine.

Let's both stop being presumptuous, okay? All I really know is my experience and I have conveyed that at length to you.

Mike


Mike, if you told somebody what you REALLY thought of their stuff, you would have no business. I understand you work with what you got, and try to maximize its potential, nothing wrong with that, but there's still dishonesty going on. It doesnt mean your opinion is gold, it just exposes the dishonesty.

Even if its not about business, you wont critique somebody negatively, because you know these people, and you dont want to hurt them. Also understandable. If my niece asks me how her singing was, i would never say anything negative, i may say you should try this or that. But since I love her, and want her to be happy and keep dreaming, I dont do that. If she was somebody on a forum asking for honest opinions, id tend to say it more directly, so it can be thought about and worked on. When people are coming here, they are getting this unconditional love, because they know nobody is going to challenge them.